Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Rossm on April 13, 2023, 09:58:52 AM
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Exclusive from The Guardian.
New stadium proposed for M40 corridor site
Ambitious rebuilding plan follows club?s financial collapse
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/apr/13/wasps-plan-new-wasps-nest-stadium-and-return-to-premiership-by-2025-26 (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/apr/13/wasps-plan-new-wasps-nest-stadium-and-return-to-premiership-by-2025-26)
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Championship matches at Henley - first thought not enough car parking
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Literally just read this and was about to post it!
Text of article:
Wasps are seeking funding for a new 24,000-capacity stadium development and are targeting a projected return to the top flight for the 2025-26 season as part of an ambitious rebuilding plan following the club?s financial collapse last autumn which saw them ejected from the Premiership.
The club?s vision, as outlined in documents seen by the Guardian, involves a new permanent home in the M40 corridor to be known as Wasps Nest Stadium. The proposed complex, which is intended to be fully operational by 2027-28 would also include a hotel, conference facilities and community leisure opportunities, with work potentially commencing in 2025 subject to planning and other permissions.
Wasps fell into administration in October, with 167 players and staff being made redundant, but have been cleared to resume playing in the Championship from next season. As things stand, it is understood the club?s existing training ground in Henley-in-Arden could potentially satisfy the criteria to stage competitive league matches.
This year a DCMS committee concluded the demise of Wasps and Worcester were ?a stain on the reputation? of the Rugby Football Union and Premiership Rugby who were accused of ?inert leadership? and warned the financial situation of Premiership teams was ?clearly unsustainable?.
A number of former Wasps players, however, remain committed to resurrecting the club and re-establishing it as a viable Premiership concern. Under the strapline ?Stung ? but Resilient? the club?s stated vision is ?to be an inspirational sports business? with promotion back to the Premiership in 2025 seen as a key element of the business plan.
Financially the aim is for rugby revenues to account for less than 50% of Wasps total revenues by 2028, with the objective of ?brand leveraged revenues? from other stadium activities bringing in an estimated ?7m per annum from 2027 onwards.
That mission statement has been made harder by the formal loss of the club?s ?P share? which, following the club?s descent into administration, is in the process of being bought back by Premiership Rugby. The ?P share? guarantees the holder a share of centrally-generated income and would cost at least ?15m to repurchase.
Wasps will also have to rebuild their local supporter base and to source fresh investment at a time when English rugby?s financial outlook has rarely looked less certain. The Guardian understands, that a strong, new-look board containing several prominent and successful business leaders will be formally announced soon with the task of ensuring that spending is constrained by revenues.
A Wasps spokesperson issued the following statement to the Guardian: ?The privileged and leaked document referred to in the article seeks to meet the objectives of future sustainable ownership. By definition that requires ownership of a ground to meet the requirements of ?brand leverage revenues?.?
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Likewise you got in with text first.
Interestingly the final paragraph is not the normal denial or comment that it is an outline.
OK folks - where in the M40 corridor? First guess Oxfordish?
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Just read this in the paper itself. Total shock to see us there top rugby story.
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Interesting that it was posted on their site at 9.30. I checked about 8.30 bit only saw Billy injury (shame) and orange card article.
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Likewise you got in with text first.
Interestingly the final paragraph is not the normal denial or comment that it is an outline.
OK folks - where in the M40 corridor? First guess Oxfordish?
It's not a competition ;)
I remember reading something about Bicester / Banbury before - M40, Chiltern Line rail etc. Not to go over old ground, but given it's now a real possibility...
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This sounds very much like the new ownership team have pinched the recommendations from my GCSE Geography coursework...
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Gaydon area?
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all very nice and lovely but when do we get some concrete information?
Confirmed location to play Champ matches, confirmed management & players?
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all very nice and lovely but when do we get some concrete information?
Confirmed location to play Champ matches, confirmed management & players?
Sounds like they have been preparing for an announcement and part of it has just been gazumped (or fed).
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Sounds like that analysis I did a while back, where I concluded it would be M40 corridor.
Overlay the M40 junctions with rail stations that have decent access and direct services to London, Coventry and the West Midlands.
Then proximity to Henley in Arden.
If they are planning hotels and conference facilities, an International airport needs to be near(ish).
Take all of that, and J13-J15 M40 would be the approximate area. Leamington gives you the rail links. Leamington also gives you the M40/M42, but also great links up to Leicester (M69), North West up the M6 and North East up the M42/M1. It also has the housing/schools where players would like to live. Birmingham and Coventry airports are nearby (as is Wellesbourne if you are a private plane or helicopter flyer).
JLR have a massive site down the road at Gaydon (but the Gaydon junction on the M40 is pretty useless for any other access except JLR).
Then there is the problem of finding a site. Given the timescale they mention, it has to be a site that already has some form of approval for a stadium, and the only place on that M40 corridor from Oxford to Henley is in Leamington.
To which a number of trolls on social media have told me I am off my #### thinking that site could be used.
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Well that is great news if it is true. And the lack of an immediate denial suggests it might be.
I'm a little worried about the idea of a stadium with hotel, and conference facilities being the main income generator, as we have seen only too well how fragile that can be.
Matches in Henley for the time being isn't a bad idea if they can sort the parking issues. They'll have to do a little work to add more loos and a proper bar, but that's definitely possible.
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Sounds like that analysis I did a while back, where I concluded it would be M40 corridor.
Overlay the M40 junctions with rail stations that have decent access and direct services to London, Coventry and the West Midlands.
Then proximity to Henley in Arden.
If they are planning hotels and conference facilities, an International airport needs to be near(ish).
Take all of that, and J13-J15 M40 would be the approximate area. Leamington gives you the rail links. Leamington also gives you the M40/M42, but also great links up to Leicester (M69), North West up the M6 and North East up the M42/M1. It also has the housing/schools where players would like to live. Birmingham and Coventry airports are nearby (as is Wellesbourne if you are a private plane or helicopter flyer).
JLR have a massive site down the road at Gaydon (but the Gaydon junction on the M40 is pretty useless for any other access except JLR).
Then there is the problem of finding a site. Given the timescale they mention, it has to be a site that already has some form of approval for a stadium, and the only place on that M40 corridor from Oxford to Henley is in Leamington.
To which a number of trolls on social media have told me I am off my #### thinking that site could be used.
I think it was your previous analysis I was referring to above when I talked about Banbury etc. Did try and find it on the old "search" thingy, but to no avail.
Where's the site in Leam with approval?
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Well that is great news if it is true. And the lack of an immediate denial suggests it might be.
I'm a little worried about the idea of a stadium with hotel, and conference facilities being the main income generator, as we have seen only too well how fragile that can be.
Matches in Henley for the time being isn't a bad idea if they can sort the parking issues. They'll have to do a little work to add more loos and a proper bar, but that's definitely possible.
Also need a second changing room. There is one big one only. EDIT: I do seem to remember an Academy Changing Room but never entered so no idea of size.
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Well that is great news if it is true. And the lack of an immediate denial suggests it might be.
I'm a little worried about the idea of a stadium with hotel, and conference facilities being the main income generator, as we have seen only too well how fragile that can be.
Matches in Henley for the time being isn't a bad idea if they can sort the parking issues. They'll have to do a little work to add more loos and a proper bar, but that's definitely possible.
Also need a second changing room. There is one big one only.
For some reason I thought there was an academy changing room, but I can't actually picture it so I suspect you're right. Plenty of unused offices now I'd guess.
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Well that is great news if it is true. And the lack of an immediate denial suggests it might be.
I'm a little worried about the idea of a stadium with hotel, and conference facilities being the main income generator, as we have seen only too well how fragile that can be.
Matches in Henley for the time being isn't a bad idea if they can sort the parking issues. They'll have to do a little work to add more loos and a proper bar, but that's definitely possible.
Also need a second changing room. There is one big one only.
For some reason I thought there was an academy changing room, but I can't actually picture it so I suspect you're right. Plenty of unused offices now I'd guess.
Yes just edited my post. There is an academy one but I never went into that one for some reason and my memory blanked it - but not my other half.
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again, this is all very nice but announcing what we plan to do in the future without funding & planning is just a business plan to convince the RFU that the Legends are serious.
None of that is going to get a team out on a pitch in September, its details about that which I want to see.
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again, this is all very nice but announcing what we plan to do in the future without funding & planning is just a business plan to convince the RFU that the Legends are serious.
None of that is going to get a team out on a pitch in September, its details about that which I want to see.
That was my first thought too. It looks a lot like an "outline" business plan with "outline" doing a lot of hard yards. I really would like to see some info on a team playing this autumn, how and where.
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Rather concerned by the hotel and conference facilities. Slight touch of the 'been there/done that' and the 'deja vu's'. Still, I'm sure they know what they're doing. i hope. But at least it's progress, and positive.
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Using Henley as the interim playing location would require planning approval, which, AFAIK hasn't been submitted yet, and it is unlikely to be passed in time for September. Also, based on the objectors to the change of use when Wasps first purchased it, I should imagine all the locals will object to it being used for real matches (even though "real, albeit low level, matchs of various sports were previously held there.
As previously stated car parking would be a major problem.
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Rather concerned by the hotel and conference facilities
Any business plan submitted would have to be strong on sustainability & multiple income streams. Irrespective of how realistic that may be in the real world.
My guess is that this is the legends business plan which they have submitted to the RFU, which is probably where someone from the Guardian got a glimpse of it!
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As this is not official this report is weak on detail and lots of questions need to be answered.
Nonetheless it's not only news but good news. Hopefully lots more to come.
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Nice to have something to talk about, rather than bemoaning "no news" as we were!
This isn't an official press release, just something "seen by The Guardian". One would hope that the full plan has costings, details and so on. IIRC the new Board was listed in an article (which I will go and try to find, unless anyone can pull it out of a hat pasted below) and was the sort of "solid" people you'd hope would make up the top team in a FTSE company. So I expect everything - when formally released - will have the i's dotted and the t's crossed.
The new PLC-style board comprises (Andy) Scott; Dame Inga Beale, former chief executive of Lloyd's of London; Simon Morris, chief creative officer worldwide at Amazon; Chris Braithwaite, former head of Apple's global real-estate division, plus a financial director.
The lack of a denial, and the statement that "the article seeks to meet the objectives of future sustainable ownership" suggests that it's based on fact though.
At least we have something to talk about! Which is nice.
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Sounds like that analysis I did a while back, where I concluded it would be M40 corridor.
Overlay the M40 junctions with rail stations that have decent access and direct services to London, Coventry and the West Midlands.
Then proximity to Henley in Arden.
If they are planning hotels and conference facilities, an International airport needs to be near(ish).
Take all of that, and J13-J15 M40 would be the approximate area. Leamington gives you the rail links. Leamington also gives you the M40/M42, but also great links up to Leicester (M69), North West up the M6 and North East up the M42/M1. It also has the housing/schools where players would like to live. Birmingham and Coventry airports are nearby (as is Wellesbourne if you are a private plane or helicopter flyer).
JLR have a massive site down the road at Gaydon (but the Gaydon junction on the M40 is pretty useless for any other access except JLR).
Then there is the problem of finding a site. Given the timescale they mention, it has to be a site that already has some form of approval for a stadium, and the only place on that M40 corridor from Oxford to Henley is in Leamington.
To which a number of trolls on social media have told me I am off my #### thinking that site could be used.
I think it was your previous analysis I was referring to above when I talked about Banbury etc. Did try and find it on the old "search" thingy, but to no avail.
Where's the site in Leam with approval?
From the Warwick District Council Local Plan (page 27) - adopted September 2017 for the period 2011 - 2029:
DS14 Allocation of Land for a Community Stadium and associated uses
Land at Myton, adjoining Warwick Technology Park (as shown on the Policies Map) is allocated as a
Community Stadium to provide a community sports complex and complementary uses.
Explanatory Text
2.59 The allocation of this land for a community stadium and associated uses will provide an opportunity to
establish a sustainable location for a new stadium and sports facility for the area. A range of
appropriate complementary uses could also be considered. Across the wider site to the west of
Europa Way (H01), other services and facilities will also be required and could be provided within the
area allocated for the Community Stadium.
The plan envisaged it for use by Leamington FC, but it isn't happening. This is a link to the plans:
https://www.warwickdc.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/5228/community_stadium_project_site_master_plan.pdf
Lots of local grumbling and mumbling that, other than a few houses (Item #6 = profitable) and the new car showroom (Item #1 - Rybrook BMW), the rest is not progressing. The hotel, doctor's surgery and community centre, nor the SEN school, nor the primary school, nor the athletics track, nor the care home.
WDC had hoped to sell their existing SEN school in Warwick (a few yards from where I used to live decades ago), the existing athletics track in Leamington to part fund it, along with funds from building houses on the existing football pitch. But, it still needed a lot of extra funding. The NHS was unwilling to fund the medical facilities, no private care company wanted to fund the care home, no hotel group wanted the hotel site. Well, you get the picture. I can drive down Fusiliers Way, but the road has not been adopted by the council and is not on Google Streetview (the latest Streetview images taken on Gallows Hill are from early 2022 and show mud and weeds. The latest satellite images are over a year old (summer of 2021). The existing football ground cannot have houses until the junction of that road (Harbury Lane) and the Fosse Way (a notorious local accident black spot) has been fixed, and they are doing those works right now. A whole new village is being built (2000 houses, GP surgery, primary school). Curiously, this is in Stratford upon Avon District, not Warwick.
Some of those amenities might happen, many will not (no funding streams). If any of you have been down to Warwick School to watch some of the U18 matches, this site backs on to their playing fields.
That was my guess back then, and still is. Leamington FC were only ever hoping to be tenants at the stadium, and wanted WDC to pick up the cost of the build and running costs. As we know, that is not financially going to happen. The council needs someone with money to come in and take the project on, and for them to own and run the site, and for them to rent to Leamington FC. Who play in Black and Gold. The timeline for Leamington FC is urgent, as they will soon lose their ground. I think next few seasons could be their last at the current ground, but by 24/25, or 25/26, they need a new ground.
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Spot on - thanks for all that info.
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Championship matches at Henley - first thought not enough car parking
When I first saw this when flicking down the posts, I was thinking Henley (on Thames) Dork!!!
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Would not surprise me if the Oxford Parkway area was being considered.
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Same here, Heathen!
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Championship matches at Henley - first thought not enough car parking
When I first saw this when flicking down the posts, I was thinking Henley (on Thames) Dork!!!
Me too. It wasn?t until the discussions about car parks and changing rooms that the penny dropped.
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It?s light on detail as it?s not a press release or announcement. It?s just a snippet. I?d be amazed if a plan was going forward if the foundation of it (playing in the champ next season) wasn?t very well progressed as well. Exciting news and once again massive thanks to those involved (probably gratis).
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It?s light on detail as it?s not a press release or announcement. It?s just a snippet. I?d be amazed if a plan was going forward if the foundation of it (playing in the champ next season) wasn?t very well progressed as well. Exciting news and once again massive thanks to those involved (probably gratis).
Looks to me to be part (part because a whole summary would touch on starting up) of a possible Executive Summary. That would suggest a more substantial document covering all aspects.
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Coventry Live nicks the Guardian article -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/local-news/wasps-plan-new-24000-seater-26690075
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Well, at least Wasps have confirmed the concept as reported is true.
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Well, we have all been asking what progress has been made and why there is no news. Now we have something. Sounds like the new proposed board have been working hard whilst some of us were complaining. There were hints of a possible announcement in the next week or so - so keep our fingers crossed.
Most people commenting here seem to agree that the M40/Chiltern Line corridor is an appropriate area. Easy trip to and from Marylebone for those who might travel from London and Birmingham.
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It has to attract old fans, so that area is a best of both worlds. The closer we get to London the better, but the closer we get to London the less viable it is, and the further away from recent acquistons to the Wasp family, so there has to be z point that people from Ipswich and Brighton say 'OK it is long but I can live with it', where Bucks fans can deal and old Londoners alongside Coventry based fans can have a smallish trek.
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Don't forget the Western contingent.
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Some people seem to be getting carried away here.
This is a plan, which has been seen by the Guardian. That is all it is. Its just an asperation.
Theres no statement from anyone at Wasps. We dont know if the funding exists, the comment on playing Champ games at the Training centre doesnt address known issues with that so thats not a given & there nothing concrete from anywhere about where Wasps will play in September, who will play for them & who will be coaching.
Frankly, while this is all very interesting it doesnt move the New Wasps any further forward at all.
Yes I am sure stuff is going on in the back ground and maybe that stuff can't be announced till its all in place but without that official announcement, we are really no better off
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A Wasps spokesperson said: ?The privileged and leaked document referred to in the article seeks to meet the objectives of future sustainable ownership. By definition that requires ownership of a ground to meet the requirements of ?brand leverage revenues?.?
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A Wasps spokesperson said: ?The privileged and leaked document referred to in the article seeks to meet the objectives of future sustainable ownership. By definition that requires ownership of a ground to meet the requirements of ?brand leverage revenues?.?
which proves what? That in the longer term New Wasps want to own their own stadium so they are more financially sustainable. What club would not want that?
That doesnt prove that this is anything other than an aspirational business plan full of buzzwords.
As a side question, would love to know who the "Wassps spokesperson" was...
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A Wasps spokesperson said: ?The privileged and leaked document referred to in the article seeks to meet the objectives of future sustainable ownership. By definition that requires ownership of a ground to meet the requirements of ?brand leverage revenues?.?
which proves what? That in the longer term New Wasps want to own their own stadium so they are more financially sustainable. What club would not want that?
That doesnt prove that this is anything other than an aspirational business plan full of buzzwords.
As a side question, would love to know who the "Wassps spokesperson" was...
Pudsey???
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All we know is that the Guardian has seen a document and what they have reported hasn't been denied.
It could be anything from an aspirational discussion document for potential investors and Board members to a final version after talks with all interested parties, including planners, RFU and investors. After all this time and judging from the Wasps response my guess is that it is closer to the final version than an aspirational discussion document.
They wouldn't suddenly be writing about playing at Henley without having discussed the implications with local planners and getting some form of tacit approval, which is by no means certain they'll get final approval. (I've seen too many mobile phone site outline plans approved, even encouraged, by planners only for local politicians to object at the last minute to be taken in at this stage)
Edit: There doesn't appear to be any planning applications for the EPIC
https://apps.stratford.gov.uk/eplanning/Map.aspx?east=414897&north=265052
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A Wasps spokesperson said: ?The privileged and leaked document referred to in the article seeks to meet the objectives of future sustainable ownership. By definition that requires ownership of a ground to meet the requirements of ?brand leverage revenues?.?
which proves what? That in the longer term New Wasps want to own their own stadium so they are more financially sustainable. What club would not want that?
That doesnt prove that this is anything other than an aspirational business plan full of buzzwords.
As a side question, would love to know who the "Wassps spokesperson" was...
Pudsey???
This I would doubt due to the early errant post by him and the ensuing silence. Also have you ever known a Guardian "journalist" to move much beyond their Kings X white house (which I have to say has a nice bar on the ground floor).
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A Wasps spokesperson said: ?The privileged and leaked document referred to in the article seeks to meet the objectives of future sustainable ownership. By definition that requires ownership of a ground to meet the requirements of ?brand leverage revenues?.?
which proves what? That in the longer term New Wasps want to own their own stadium so they are more financially sustainable. What club would not want that?
That doesnt prove that this is anything other than an aspirational business plan full of buzzwords.
As a side question, would love to know who the "Wassps spokesperson" was...
Even you in your dourest moments must realise that the bit in the Guardian can only be a snippet of a possible Executive Summary and not a full blown detailed release giving the "way forward".
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Some points to consider. If you start today with an idea to build something like a hotel or stadium, on a greenfield site, probably one that the local council has in general principal agreed some form of development is likely to be approved, but where nothing specific has yet been mooted, it will take you about 10 years to see the final brick laid, the final shrubbery planted, the access roads surfaced, and utilities turned on. 10 years. If there are local objections, add up to another 5 years.
Wasps want the 'Wasps Nest'. But, can they have it, by 26/27/28? Not a chance if a project they can hijack has not already been 'in progress' for 5-7 years. That is the reality of our planning system. I don't know what it is like in Warwick, but in my district council, next door Stratford, it can take a year for even simple planning applications in areas where development is generally permitted, to get their first hearing (ignore maximum waiting times for planning applications, it simply doesn't happen round here).
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Come on Wasps, looking for an excuse to buy this!
(https://images.triumphmotorcycles.co.uk/media-library/images/e-com/product%20images/uk/ss22/gallery/lifestyle/pa_ltla2239_ignition_coil_gallery_aw22_1.png)
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Would have been even better if it had Norton on it!
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An interesting but expected future plan and ideal. Good for the new club to have ambition but I think most, including me, would like an idea if next season is going to happen. As others have said long term plans are just that plans and dreams, whereas plans for next season would be more tangible and something we can get excited about.
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Any actual idea when the Championship matches start in 23/24.
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It all means nothing unless and until we have a squad!
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Any actual idea when the Championship matches start in 23/24.
After the World Cup I believe. During the World Cup are the pool stages of the Premiership/Championship Cup.
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Any actual idea when the Championship matches start in 23/24.
After the World Cup I believe. During the World Cup are the pool stages of the Premiership/Championship Cup.
If Wasps are playing in the Championship then are they/do they have to also playing in the Premiership/Championship cup?
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Wasps want the 'Wasps Nest'. But, can they have it, by 26/27/28? Not a chance if a project they can hijack has not already been 'in progress' for 5-7 years. That is the reality of our planning system. I don't know what it is like in Warwick, but in my district council, next door Stratford, it can take a year for even simple planning applications in areas where development is generally permitted, to get their first hearing (ignore maximum waiting times for planning applications, it simply doesn't happen round here).
Planning around Warwick Gateway is bonkers. A private owner is trying to develop an old farmhouse and the council is saying "no", but thousands of bland homes around the plot are getting thrown up.
However to your point about the Leam FC community stadium being the Wasps Nest, I get the feeling the council is likely to fast track planning to make sure the community has an asset rather than just the developers getting rich selling houses. If anything it would be in the interest of the council to almost gift the land as long as they get a say in some of the facilities that can be created there
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Yes, my fathers farm house and the cottages and farm buildings is in Warwick (a mile from the site we are discussing), with thousands of houses going up in the fields around him. The farmer who now owns the farm had no end of difficulty getting permission to build a house for the farm manager, with the condition it was used only for someone connected to farming. But the farm's fields are now gone and converted to houses. Bonkers.
But, getting permission in Warwick hinges heavily on who you know. A large firm of local solicitors some years ago bought a very nice bungalow with gorgeous gardens ready to knock it down and bulldoze the gardens. Funny how they did that in the middle of the night of the day before a listed building order got placed on what had by then ceased to exist. I wonder how that happened?
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Haha yes, that sounds familiar.
Of course, the club also does/did have a good connection with a large legal firm that used to sponsor the club.
Who are coincidentally just up the road from the Leam Community stadium site
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Living in the same area, it?s not escaped my notice that planning inspectors are able to drive 7-series BMWs while looking like they?ve just stepped out of Uni.
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Haha yes, that sounds familiar.
Of course, the club also does/did have a good connection with a large legal firm that used to sponsor the club.
Who are coincidentally just up the road from the Leam Community stadium site
Yes, that firm's name always made me laugh.
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As in, it's a...
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As in, it's a...
Yep