Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: JonnyD on November 21, 2021, 01:34:01 AM
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I was a bit late to watching this due to the time difference where I am.
Just watched it back but no thread here at all? Perhaps indicative of my feelings on the game that I just wasn’t that bothered.
I was watching it on premier sports Asia with Martin Gillingham and Thinus Delport on commentary - at the end discussing the ‘tactical masterclass’ of Eddie Jones and how that is exactly the type of test match rugby we want to watch….
Not sure about that.
Thought Eddie was almost found out tactically with the 6-2 bench split almost backfiring yet again again when Tuilagi inevitably got crocked.
His inexperienced hooker coming in ahead of many other candidates and then blowing three or four line outs almost costing the game.
To his credit Jones gloriously hauled Youngs off but then having an exciting 9/10 axis and then them not actually playing any rugby until we were behind with five mins to go.
The ball went wide noticeably quicker without Farrell around, both Slade and Smith playing with more freedom and responsibility.
Main talking point for me was the referee. Thought Ewels was very lucky to stay on and whilst the commentary team I was listening to didn’t really delve into it, to me that wasn’t referreed as we have seen recently in Europe. This could have swayed the match. Perhaps Ewells couldn’t do anything but like Kolisi said at the time the players must still be protected. I wonder if Etzebeth would have been knocked out with that whether the decision would have been any different and then it would have been turned to being a decision on outcome.
Definitely some interesting calls at the breakdown for both sides.
A horrible example again of two coaches who firmly believe it is better to play test rugby without the ball and frustratingly with the referee at the breakdown this did prove to be the case. I’m hoping the Wales and France matches are a little more open as I move on to them.
I imagine SA will feel a little aggrieved but what a year of rugby they have had.
Eddie will probably have an even bigger chip on his shoulder now but at least some of the old guard have been moved on and the likes of Smith and Dombrandt are being picked on form and a gem like Steward has been unearthed.
Looking forward to Europe and the Premiership being back.
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I suppose part of the reason for no England thread is no Wasps player playing or in contention. It sounds parochial but it is a forum for Wasps rugby discussions.
After a bright start England went in to their shell and SA slowly took a grip of the game. The penalty count tells the story but in the end it was a gutsy performance by England. I thought it was a fair call on Ewels and a card would have been very harsh. It was also a tough call on tough call Kolisi, but that's the way the game is being referred. If you're going in for the high ball and aren't in a perfect position you risk getting pinged and carded. We complain about the kicking but as the old saying goes: incentives matter.
I am no fan of Youngs but I thought he had a reasonable game, mixing up the kicking, sniping and distribution well, at least in the first 20 minutes, after that they didn't get enough front foot ball for him to make much of an impact.
On Twitter Rugby on Line reckoned Eddie gave a good interview to the Amazon commentators. I don't usually watch post match interviews, too much emotion and too many trite questions to offer much insight.
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" suppose part of the reason for no England thread is no Wasps player playing or in contention. It sounds parochial but it is a forum for Wasps rugby discussions."
Yes was thinking post match that only Wasps and Worcester (think Im right?) had no representation in the 23? Could be considered a good thing, to have such a broad representation of the other clubs - suspect good for marketing.
Hopefully only temporary in our case until we get some of our bodies back on the pitch?
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It’s a funny old game. I think at the moment some of the selections within the England Squad (namely Farrell perhaps) and Jones’ attitude at times simply turns many people off and no matter what happens it’s the same negativity (not really on this thread, just in general).
Whilst we laboured past Australia, thought we were good value for the win yesterday and it was a proper Test Match.
Thought we looked good in the first half and largely had the answers to South Africa’s defence and set-piece capabilities and the Boks struggled to assert the dominance expected to see on paper. The arrival of the bomb squad changed that.
They began to systematically dismantle our set-piece and tackled so brutally that we struggled for momentum. It’s not that often you see someone like Marler get chewed up and spat out in pretty much every tackle, or see Itoje dumped.
After that penalty to take the lead I honestly don’t think we’d have found a way back if it were Farrell on the pitch and not Smith. You could see the intent; looking for gaps, working the defence, playing with both pace and more importantly instinct.
To kick that penalty at the end, even if a relatively easy kick in the grand scheme of things, was a good test of Marcus’ mental strength.
Lastly, a word of Youngs. I know we’ve had the discussion over and over but I’m still head-scratching how he is likely to end up with the most England caps of all-time cap and that we’ve effectively skipped a generation (ok not with Care perhaps) or not seeing what Care, Robson and Spencer could have done to have helped speed up the game for England.
It’s good to see Quirke early on and think he and van Poortlivet and long international careers ahead of them (More so than Randall or Mitchell IMO), but think any one of Care, Robson or Spencer could have steered the ship better than Youngs in the last couple of years.
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Forgot to ask… the biggest talking point from yesterday's game has to be: Where does this leave Farrell?
He’s obviously injured until the 6N, so is perhaps a doubt for that. But longer-term, does the arrival of Marcus signal the twilight for Farrell - Is it a coincidence that a Smith/Slade 10/12 looked much more natural than Smith/Faz against easier opposition?
Will Faz be the de facto 10, 12 or second choice 10? It just feels like from what you hear about Smith that there’s not enough room for both of them who see and play the game differently to be on the pitch at the same time.
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I found the game quite dull and nodded off several times. I think we were lucky that SA missed a few kicks. Result could very well have been quite different otherwise. With that Jones got lucky.
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I get everyone here hates EJ and England (albeit you guys obviously don't want to), but even you've got to admit what England did was fantastic.
I'll admit EJ still using Youngs is frustrating. But we beat SA using attacking rugby, Gleeson style. I loved it. It's clear since Quins, France and England now there's a swing to attacking rugby rather than defensive. It meant we delivered a great performance against a dull defensive team. 3 tries to 1 I mean come on! Plus it was all Smith, Quirke, Steward, Rodd and more. I liked our performance and think when some injured players return we'll be contenders for 6N.
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“ Forgot to ask… the biggest talking point from yesterday's game has to be: Where does this leave Farrell? ”
Do you mean where should this leave Farrell or where will it leave Farrell?
It should mean he has to get fit and prove himself and earn his place back. The reality is that Jones will continue to see him as the centre of England and the team and tactics will be adjusted to fit him as soon as he his fit, probably at 12.
Whilst I still think he’s good enough to keep his place, Itoje’s star waned a bit in the past couple of games. Have international teams worked him out?
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A couple of points. This game had the "EJ miracle result" written all over it just like the Japan win over SA, Aus over NZ in the RWC 2003 and our win over NZ last RWC (but to name a few) Jones seems able to get his sides to win games - that are often ones that they aren't expected to.
As for England under Jones, they do seem to bear the tag of favourite less easily than underdog. It does seem - for obvious reasons - that England play better when the pressure is "off" a little. What has often troubled England is backing up good results. Like the RWC Final, or the 2021 6Ns when a good win vs France was followed by being handed our arses by Ireland, a team with 14 men for much of the game.
The key matter was the backline being able to deliver going forwards - looked - obviously - a little more Wasps-a-like. I hope that England start Malins - I think him coming on may have won the game with his positioning and covering. Decide who and how they want their centres to play and perhaps look to play an 8......I don't get Lawes at 6 nor Curry at 8.
The forwards contributed a shed load of penalties yesterday. Something that they were doing too often in 6Ns 2020, when this backrow was the preferred starting grouping. And another ref would have had us down a man early doors and not just once....
What gets me about England is the conversations by supporters BTL in the papers etc, where too many think this is some sort of indication that "England is back". We've been down this route in Autumn Internationals before....England were abject too often in the last 6Ns and visit Scotland and Paris next year. We'll get a better feel then.
This was one to raise a glass to, enjoy and not get too over excited....The Official stats suggest a game that SA played a lot like they do when they win (turnovers, tackles, penalties forced etc) and would not have been out of place in them winning. England will play better and lose and SA, visa versa.
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We tried to play. I hope that this is Eddie working out that you beat SA like Australia try to, not by arm wrestling.
We were a little lucky to win overall, but the first 40 was very good.
Worrying that the set piece was so one sided though. SA are masters of the scrum, to be fair.
I would like to see more from them, their rise to the top has not been good to watch, no team should not get as much reward as they do from the scrum.
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I think some of the lack of interest is definitely down to the “out of sight, out of mind” factor. To see club, international and Lions rugby you’d now have to subscribe to three or four channels. Many will choose just one (BT Sport) in my case. If you can’t watch it you don’t get into it as much.
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Good point Shugs.
No highlights outside of youtube and Amazon only will have reduced interest. I am not that parochial that I only want to see Engkand with Wasps players in, the internationals this weekend have been fascinating.
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Whilst I still think he’s good enough to keep his place, Itoje’s star waned a bit in the past couple of games. Have international teams worked him out?
Never really understood the love in for Itoje.
He is good but he is a penalty magnet and was lucky again yesterday, the handbags at one point in the 2nd half was escalated by him running round to hit a player on the ground, something the SA 23 was blamed for.
The constant whooping is also very annoying!
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Whilst I still think he’s good enough to keep his place, Itoje’s star waned a bit in the past couple of games. Have international teams worked him out?
Never really understood the love in for Itoje.
He is good but he is a penalty magnet and was lucky again yesterday, the handbags at one point in the 2nd half was escalated by him running round to hit a player on the ground, something the SA 23 was blamed for.
The constant whooping is also very annoying!
Yes. For some time now, I have mentally nick named him 'the pom-pom girl'.
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Whilst I still think he’s good enough to keep his place, Itoje’s star waned a bit in the past couple of games. Have international teams worked him out?
Never really understood the love in for Itoje.
He is good but he is a penalty magnet and was lucky again yesterday, the handbags at one point in the 2nd half was escalated by him running round to hit a player on the ground, something the SA 23 was blamed for.
The constant whooping is also very annoying!
Yes. For some time now, I have mentally nick named him 'the pom-pom girl'.
I don't like him. He persistently cheats, playing the percentages each game, using the same cheat in each game enough to get away without getting a yellow.
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The really sad thing is that when he was in their Academy he was absolutely brilliant but played a clean game no nastiness, no dirty play. As soon as he was in with Sarries seniors his behaviour changed. There was no need as his playing was still as brilliant and he just didn't need to play nasty; he could get just the same results by being his young amazing academy self. Such a shame. So unnecessary.
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You guys are making it sound like Itoje is Bakkies Both or something. It's just what you get with top level forwards, seeing how much you can get away with discipline wise. South Africa, Australia, Ireland, Wales NZ etc. All do it. He's world class and easily one of the best locks in the world. Up there with Etzebeth, Retallick and Henderson. And this is someone who still despises Saracens with a passion.
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You guys are making it sound like Itoje is Bakkies Both or something. It's just what you get with top level forwards, seeing how much you can get away with discipline wise. South Africa, Australia, Ireland, Wales NZ etc. All do it. He's world class and easily one of the best locks in the world. Up there with Etzebeth, Retallick and Henderson. And this is someone who still despises Saracens with a passion.
Yes. But I still think of him as 'the pom-pom girl'. 😄
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Good point Shugs.
No highlights outside of youtube and Amazon only will have reduced interest. I am not that parochial that I only want to see Engkand with Wasps players in, the internationals this weekend have been fascinating.
To be clear, my point about parochial was that discussions here are parochial given the nature and title of the forum, not that the people here are parochial. If anything I'd say contributors here are some of the most (rugby) cosmopolitan sports fans I've come across.
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I think England deserve massive praise for fighting back to win the game. If I was a betting man I would have put money on SA winning with 20 mins left. Yes they gave a way a lot of penalties, but they were under massive pressure in the scrums & mauls, what else were they supposed to do? They dealt with the issues in front of them & found a way to win, and they deserve credit for that.
The bigger question is can they back it up with a good 6 nations? Ireland & Scotland have looked decent, while France have been playing absolutely mental rugby! So with visits to Paris & Murrayfield England will have it all to do. It could be a very interesting tournament with pretty much any one of 4 teams all in with a decent chance. Even Wales who haven't really impressed could even surprise a few teams.
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I think Itoje is one of those polarising players that most would love if he was on your team, but hate otherwise. McCaw, Bakkies etc all played to the limits (and often beyond) and were a major pain in the arse for opposition. Itoje is in that mould. But I also wish he'd stop the whooping!
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If anyone has not watched the FR NZ match, I would say you will thank yourself if you do. Really looking forward to France in the 6N, hard not to just admire their brass- I would love it if they won the WC I don't mind admitting.
Magnifique!
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If anyone has not watched the FR NZ match, I would say you will thank yourself if you do. Really looking forward to France in the 6N, hard not to just admire their brass- I would love it if they won the WC I don't mind admitting.
Magnifique!
+1
Great game. T
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I think Itoje is one of those polarising players that most would love if he was on your team, but hate otherwise. McCaw, Bakkies etc all played to the limits (and often beyond) and were a major pain in the arse for opposition. Itoje is in that mould. But I also wish he'd stop the whooping!
I'd agree with that although i'd say he's not really in the Bakkies mould (i.e. dirty in a physical sense), he's definitely in the McCaw edge-of-the-laws and seemingly always getting the benefit of the doubt mould.
The thing with Itoje is that relative to the rest of the team, typically a poor Itoje performance is still high performance. He's been quieter than usual - less of the galloping breaks and seems to be doing more of the nitty-gritty. Despite a poor 6N by his standards and a pretty quiet Lions Tour, I suspect he'd still be one of the first names of the team sheet for most fans.
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I'd agree with that although i'd say he's not really in the Bakkies mould (i.e. dirty in a physical sense), he's definitely in the McCaw edge-of-the-laws and seemingly always getting the benefit of the doubt mould.
The thing with Itoje is that relative to the rest of the team, typically a poor Itoje performance is still high performance. He's been quieter than usual - less of the galloping breaks and seems to be doing more of the nitty-gritty. Despite a poor 6N by his standards and a pretty quiet Lions Tour, I suspect he'd still be one of the first names of the team sheet for most fans.
Agreed, although not a fan of him my self, I think he is an incredible athlete. His work rate is almost freakish and he is at full throttle for the full 80 every game, I don't think I've ever seen him substituted???
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Not read much of this thread but just wanted to say i was really impressed with that win.
We bought 3 or 4 scrum wins in the first half on the back of pure trickery. Absolutely pumped for the rest (not surprising given injuries). We were smashed in the maul, again front row injuries have a big effect here. Struggled with our own lineout (injuries again). Due to all the above pressures we gave away a load of penalties.
However the controllables were good. Our defence was pretty solid. Work under the high ball mostly defused the boks backs. And completely sold the boks defence a few times with first phase set piece moves to lead to tries.
I think you'd struggle to find another game where the set piece and maul were all so one sided, along with a 18-8 penalty count (boks only had about 4 up until the 65th minute, Think the quirke try riled them). And for the team on the wrong end of those facts to have won.
If that was a wasps game we'd be screaming to the rooftops about character and brilliant planning to take advantage in the few places we could.