Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: petros on July 02, 2021, 11:07:39 AM
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22 Dan Robson
23 Jacob Umaga
No place for Gaby or Josh
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No big surprise, Gaby was clearly on the fringe, and I suspect Josh was there to be a senior head who'd fight like hell in training with no obvious weakness.
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Have a fear after having worked so hard to get in, Dan could soon be jettisoned off for a younger model
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Have a fear after having worked so hard to get in, Dan could soon be jettisoned off for a younger model
To be fair, it's just circumstances. Dan had to wait behind Youngs and Care, had an almost career ending moment and a head coach who would not start him.
It's just unlucky.
Randall is like young Robson, so it's understandable why he's given an opportunity over Robson here. Eddie gets a chance to see what he's like and make him the scrum half he wants.
I still stand by it, Robson is England's best scrum half right now, but I get why he's not picked.
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Given the nature of these next 2 games, I'm sure we'll see the bench on fairly early. I would hope Dan and Jacob will come on together fairly early in the 2nd half, possibly even at half time, so they can have a good crack.
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Have a fear after having worked so hard to get in, Dan could soon be jettisoned off for a younger model
Unfortunately I think this is exactly what is going to happen.
Eddie is prepping the press for changes like this with his comments about wanting young hungry players for 2023.
Thing is, he's had these for the past 5 years but just ignores them, the man's a busted flush whos stubbornness will continue to hold England back.
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I’m not sure we’ll see much of Jacob. Because of the 6-2 split on the bench Jacob will likely be held back in case of injury
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Mental Eddie said that: "They are always bullish. We are expecting that Trump-like confidence to come out on Sunday and we're going to have to work hard to put them back in their box."
What a very peculiar thing to say :o :o :o
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Mental Eddie said that: "They are always bullish. We are expecting that Trump-like confidence to come out on Sunday and we're going to have to work hard to put them back in their box."
What a very peculiar thing to say :o :o :o
Man needs certifying- for many reasons!
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Eddie seems to have made a sport out of coming up with yet more fresh excuses for not giving a start to Dan Robson.
Actually...I'm not sure he's ever really justified why.
But it completely bamboozles me.
He obviously just can't find the evidence to trust him....and all without giving him an actual chance in a match.
Or maybe he's worried he'll play too well...and unseat favourite Youngs?
So strange.
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Eddie seems to have made a sport out of coming up with yet more fresh excuses for not giving a start to Dan Robson.
Actually...I'm not sure he's ever really justified why.
But it completely bamboozles me.
He obviously just can't find the evidence to trust him....and all without giving him an actual chance in a match.
Or maybe he's worried he'll play too well...and unseat favourite Youngs?
So strange.
Agreed - and I really struggle with the backs selection too. Sure, Start Smith - is the in form 10 and has had a decent season, but why - yet again - play an out and out 13 at 12 and why play Slade at all? We know all we need to know about Slade - good footballer - someone you'd start in a "real" game. But given last time England started Lawrence, at 12, they pulled him off, having made ONE pass to him in over an hour.....and given the liking for a larger power 13 such as Manu - what I'd want to start getting to know is does Lawrence provide a fit outside F&F at 10 and 12? Sure - interesting back three, but it would be a big surprise if anyone other than Malins pushes towards Watson and May for RWC 23. And so - you may as well start Robson - he is the player you need to be confident in starting if/when Youngs is injured or out of form - not a tyro SH who would be a gamble...And would provide the stability you need from the base of the breakdown.
but what do I know, eh?
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Mental Eddie said that: "They are always bullish. We are expecting that Trump-like confidence to come out on Sunday and we're going to have to work hard to put them back in their box."
What a very peculiar thing to say :o :o :o
This from the Donald Trump of Rugby. Wow.
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I have always been a passionate rugby supporter having travelled with England and the Lions all over the World but I am afraid my love of the game at International level has waned. I believe this to be because I cannot stand Jones or Saracens (after their cheating) and Jones has persisted with his love affair with out of form and rusty Saracens who are underperforming. I feel this so strongly that after 43 years I have forgone my debentures at Twickenham.
I just don't love this England team and its head coach.
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I have always been a passionate rugby supporter having travelled with England and the Lions all over the World but I am afraid my love of the game at International level has waned. I believe this to be because I cannot stand Jones or Saracens (after their cheating) and Jones has persisted with his love affair with out of form and rusty Saracens who are underperforming. I feel this so strongly that after 43 years I have forgone my debentures at Twickenham.
I just don't love this England team and its head coach.
Same.
It’s just an unlikeable set-up.
And Jones can’t help but throw in snide, childish remarks before games (Trump etc) to try and drum up in interest in the game, rather than having an exciting brand of rugby that would bring in a multitude of fans and attention.
If his side played like the Quins side, he wouldn’t need to give another press conference. But then Eddie wouldn’t be the story himself.
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Same as you guys. Whilst not travelled to see England for a while - I was at the 87 RWC and I can still see myself in the video of England beating Japan and Rob Andrew leading the line.....I was proud to be able to watch England train at Sydney Uni's sports grounds - where I was working.
But the unlikability for me struck during the 2018 season when it seemed that Jones' England seemed to have little regard for the supporters, playing poorly even with a great squad and going on the longest losing run for ages. Saved by Danny in SA....It wasn't the losing, but the manner - hell, I supported England with my Dad in the 70's when winning wasn't common and Welsh friends took the piss out of Dad at the pub....
But looking at what a number of South Hemisphere articles said about Jones and how he lost the '03 Aussie team, the disaster in Queensland and the brutality required to get that Japan result, I just get the feeling that Jones' coaching has been focused on himself. And almost preferring to try and win with the "wrong" players (WTF was Billy doing in Dublin, let alone on the pitch?) than admit he might be wrong.
And the reports from the '18 Tour to SA about those "within" the circle and those outside - suggested a coach that likes his inner circle more than the team. And it's become very tedious.
It came to a head vs Scotland in the 6Ns when a bizarre selection of out of form, and frankly what looked unfit players from the EA's, and tactics that seemed fixed regardless made me want a fast and enterprising Scotland to win.....I have enough Welsh contacts/family these days to be an honorary Welshman so I was pleased a mature Wales team beat us and found the early score conceded vs Italy quite amusing.
Stuck with this sadly.
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The problem is that Jones is hyper focussed on the World Cup. He doesn't really care about anything else. But the fans, quite rightly, want to see 6N wins etc. To be frank with the resources he has anything outside of the top 2 in the 6N is an abject failure. Coupled with that he's producing teams that are dull as dishwater to watch. Dan Robson is the best SH in the Prem. But he's suffered from the same thing as Smith, Simmonds etc - people outside of Jones bubble have called for his inclusion. Jones knows best - and he uses the continued exclusion of "popular" players to prove it. That's fine if you are winning and entertaining but he's doing neither.
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The problem is that Jones is hyper focussed on the World Cup. He doesn't really care about anything else. But the fans, quite rightly, want to see 6N wins etc. To be frank with the resources he has anything outside of the top 2 in the 6N is an abject failure. Coupled with that he's producing teams that are dull as dishwater to watch. Dan Robson is the best SH in the Prem. But he's suffered from the same thing as Smith, Simmonds etc - people outside of Jones bubble have called for his inclusion. Jones knows best - and he uses the continued exclusion of "popular" players to prove it. That's fine if you are winning and entertaining but he's doing neither.
Yeah...to be honest, I just want to see good entertainment played by players with smiles on their faces and enjoying their rugby.
I want our national team to play to win and express themselves, rather than the fear of failure crippling their ambition.
Everything has been so over-controlled these past few years with Eddie....and he seems to project his limitations on to the players.
If I'm going back to twickenham and paying an absolute fortune for a day out...I want to be entertained, as I so often have in the past.
There are so many other things competing for our attention these days, that English international rugby has to be very careful it doesn't haemorrhage fans beyond repair.
The whole set-up has to become more likeable and engaging.
A bit more Southgate than Jones.
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Jacob on after 9 mins
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Still trying to work out where he is playing!
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When the 6-2 split comes back to haunt you when a winger gets injured early on...
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Jacob at 12. Dan on the wing. Bizarre. 6-2 split and injuries to Malins and Lawrence dictating.
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Dan will soon have more minutes as a non 9 than as a 9! Congrats EJ, wonderful management.
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Really disorganised effort - if you are going 6-2 then at least one of those 2 needs to be a "proper" utility back or you need to have selected a second 5/8th as part of the starting 15....
But if you have a 13 at 12, you are reducing your options already and it wasn't clear what the selection strategy was meant to achieve....in the first place.
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Smith avoiding passing to Jacob perchance.
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Yes, Jones has made a real mess of it and USA have 4 tries. No idea why Malins started on the wing. If you're going 6-2 Malins should have been the bench man. We were never, ever going to struggle up front against USA so why take the risk of a 6-2?? No doubt Robson will slip further down the pecking order now having been stationed on the wing. Randall MOM but for me he's a dangerous player for his own side with his predictable darts.
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And Randall also conceded a try with the charge down. The England pack were poor conceding too many scrum penalties and the locks were very unimpressive. The backs didn't see that much ball in the 2nd half
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Robson will be down graded for not being as good a winger as say, Joe C.....
You're right re Malins - Lawrence and Slade could easily move out one to wing (Lawrence being a 13 at heart) and that left 12 without cover, and no back three cover.....That Jacob managed his game in the centres, mainly, was to his credit, and ball in hand England had options because of having two 10's on the pitch - but as for what the defensive line up was supposed to be was above my pay grade.
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Might have to get used to these sort of substitute gambles if numbers are reduced as have been talked about.
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Yes, Jones has made a real mess of it and USA have 4 tries. No idea why Malins started on the wing. If you're going 6-2 Malins should have been the bench man. We were never, ever going to struggle up front against USA so why take the risk of a 6-2?? No doubt Robson will slip further down the pecking order now having been stationed on the wing. Randall MOM but for me he's a dangerous player for his own side with his predictable darts.
Joking aside, Randall had a reasonable game against a low calibre nation, but I do fear EJ will now punt Dan. Then EJ will be seeting there all smug saying I told you so. Jacob was also a fish out of water where he was playing, I too thought Smith was overlooking Jacob when he was in space, I thought it was just me. Not a great day for Wasps players due to EJ's mistakes with the bench.
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It was just a mess.
Why couldn’t Eddie just drip feed in a few of these younger players into an established side in the Six Nations, rather than trying to play them all at once in the summer, at the end of a long season?
You get disjointed chaos.
And maybe, in a way, that’s what he wants...so he can revert back to his favourites saying that everyone else just isn’t ready yet.
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All a bit of a mess.
I agree playing a stronger side wouldn’t have taught us much like the NZ Tonga game but I also think we need more value in the shirt. Getting a cap for your country should be almost the pinnacle of your career and captaining the side even more so. Realistically the likes of McNally at 30 isn’t going to be anywhere near the squad with everyone’s available, maybe a few of the other forwards too. Is Ludlow going to be near the 6 shirt with a full squad?
6-2 was a mess and the backs never fired without being to adapt tactically without any more sub options. Umaga not great but doubt they practised much with him there and poor old Dan.
Steward had a good game at the back but I fear he hasn’t got the extra ten percent to be a world beater - absolutely solid like mike brown and so much safer already than Daly but Malins starting there would have made more sense
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As a side note I think Channel 4 are still very wide of the mark with their coverage.
I know they have some new guys learning the ropes and they are forming a diverse team but they are not good enough presenters or pundits for terrestrial fans and don’t offer enough expert analysis at all for the more regular fan.
Channel 4 persist with Waterman and Ojo and I’m not seeing much improvement, Ashton similarly amazes me how often he’s asked to provide tv coverage - they all make Ugo look very good!
Very different to the Lions coverage yesterday where the team gathered we’re superb
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As a side note I think Channel 4 are still very wide of the mark with their coverage.
I know they have some new guys learning the ropes and they are forming a diverse team but they are not good enough presenters or pundits for terrestrial fans and don’t offer enough expert analysis at all for the more regular fan.
Channel 4 persist with Waterman and Ojo and I’m not seeing much improvement, Ashton similarly amazes me how often he’s asked to provide tv coverage - they all make Ugo look very good!
Very different to the Lions coverage yesterday where the team gathered we’re superb
Agree 100%.
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That game was a mess. Not sure what Eddie intended to get out of it. Maybe to see just how bad everybody could be out of position? USA showed good coaching and commitment, but simply lacked the class needed.
Frankly, I wasn't impressed by the Randall/Smith pairing. Neither was bad as such, but not really the class I was expecting.
I enjoyed the Italy v Scotland U20s game far more.
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I'd love to know what goes through Jones head. Is Malins ever likely to feature on the wing - surely not. Is he probably the best FB Jones has - yes. Let's play him wing. I understand he wanted a look at Steward - so play him there v USA and Malins v Can. Are we ever going to struggle up front v USA? No. I know - I'll stack the bench 6-2. A direct consequence of which is the game becoming a total sham in terms of a learning exercise. The fans and players deserve better.
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I'd love to know what goes through Jones head. Is Malins ever likely to feature on the wing - surely not. Is he probably the best FB Jones has - yes. Let's play him wing. I understand he wanted a look at Steward - so play him there v USA and Malins v Can. Are we ever going to struggle up front v USA? No. I know - I'll stack the bench 6-2. A direct consequence of which is the game becoming a total sham in terms of a learning exercise. The fans and players deserve better.
^^ This
The players go along with it because they get a cap. But everybody loses.
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I'd love to know what goes through Jones head. Is Malins ever likely to feature on the wing - surely not. Is he probably the best FB Jones has - yes. Let's play him wing. I understand he wanted a look at Steward - so play him there v USA and Malins v Can. Are we ever going to struggle up front v USA? No. I know - I'll stack the bench 6-2. A direct consequence of which is the game becoming a total sham in terms of a learning exercise. The fans and players deserve better.
^^ This
The players go along with it because they get a cap. But everybody loses.
This. The areas of selection that are probably an issue for England are 8,9,10,12 and 15 in terms of who ought to play 8 - if Billy is wandering around like in the 6Ns, we need to know if Dan can start and control a test, who plays 10/12 in case of injury/loss of form and who ought to start at 15? And having done what Shugs said - what do we know now?
The worst of it is that - as noted - we could have started Malins at 15, Dan at 9 and (my pref) Lawrence at 13 - his regular club position. Tom Willis could have started 8 - if not excluded from the squad and Devoto at 12. And that would demonstrate a number of outcomes - if successful - that could work towards RWC 23.
What goes through Jones' head......whilst a bit of a hatchet job - this was always of interest..... https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/108275798/new-book-reveals-how-eddie-jones-loses-assistant-coaches-and-dressing-rooms
"He has bad managerial skills. I couldn't believe the way he talked to people in front of other people. I've managed enough people to know that there are some things you just can't do to people. You can't take away their dignity," former Wallabies fullback Roger Gould said of his brief role as one of Jones' assistant coaches in 2004.
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As a side note I think Channel 4 are still very wide of the mark with their coverage.
I know they have some new guys learning the ropes and they are forming a diverse team but they are not good enough presenters or pundits for terrestrial fans and don’t offer enough expert analysis at all for the more regular fan.
Channel 4 persist with Waterman and Ojo and I’m not seeing much improvement, Ashton similarly amazes me how often he’s asked to provide tv coverage - they all make Ugo look very good!
Very different to the Lions coverage yesterday where the team gathered we’re superb
I know the lead presenter on C4 for the game sits on Transfer Centre for Sky Sports so maybe more adapt to Football.
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After all this discussion, I don't think anybody has actually congratulated Jacob on his first England cap. So - "CONGRATULATIONS JACOB".
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After all this discussion, I don't think anybody has actually congratulated Jacob on his first England cap. So - "CONGRATULATIONS JACOB".
True! congrats Jacob, fingers crossed we see all four starting next week!
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I know the lead presenter on C4 for the game sits on Transfer Centre for Sky Sports so maybe more adapt to Football.
Who was the co-commentator yesterday who at one stage called the England Scrum Half " Harry Redknapp"
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I'd love to know what goes through Jones head. Is Malins ever likely to feature on the wing - surely not. Is he probably the best FB Jones has - yes. Let's play him wing. I understand he wanted a look at Steward - so play him there v USA and Malins v Can. Are we ever going to struggle up front v USA? No. I know - I'll stack the bench 6-2. A direct consequence of which is the game becoming a total sham in terms of a learning exercise. The fans and players deserve better.
^^ This
The players go along with it because they get a cap. But everybody loses.
This. The areas of selection that are probably an issue for England are 8,9,10,12 and 15 in terms of who ought to play 8 - if Billy is wandering around like in the 6Ns, we need to know if Dan can start and control a test, who plays 10/12 in case of injury/loss of form and who ought to start at 15? And having done what Shugs said - what do we know now?
The worst of it is that - as noted - we could have started Malins at 15, Dan at 9 and (my pref) Lawrence at 13 - his regular club position. Tom Willis could have started 8 - if not excluded from the squad and Devoto at 12. And that would demonstrate a number of outcomes - if successful - that could work towards RWC 23.
What goes through Jones' head......whilst a bit of a hatchet job - this was always of interest..... https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/108275798/new-book-reveals-how-eddie-jones-loses-assistant-coaches-and-dressing-rooms
"He has bad managerial skills. I couldn't believe the way he talked to people in front of other people. I've managed enough people to know that there are some things you just can't do to people. You can't take away their dignity," former Wallabies fullback Roger Gould said of his brief role as one of Jones' assistant coaches in 2004.
All of these above.