Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Shugs on September 24, 2022, 01:41:18 PM
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Obviously Jones was there last night and will have been appraised of our games so far. I think we may have several forcing their way into his thinking. T Willis, J Willis, T West, C Atkinson, J Launchbury the most serious possibilities. Wild card possibilities Bassett and Alo although I think we’ll keep both.
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Think Bassett’s chance is gone and that’s probably fair. I think unfortunately Launchbury is getting edged out by far far inferior options.
My outside shout might be Will Porter. I think there are quite a few options at SH who are better players than Porter but we all know Eddie doesn’t always go with that logic so he could be in with a shout.
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Probably agree re Bassett.
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With scrum half, Eddie wants most box kick accuracy (and absence of charge downs), evidence of direction change, and fast breaks and supporting play.
Last night, Porter was all these things. And then Dobbie came on and proved how MUCH better than him Porter was against the same opposition (and thus a direct comparison).
Eddie has a ton of back row players to choose from, and a 10 MUST have 90% points kicking ability, which Atkinson does not.
So, was he there to look at Porter? Maybe. Otherwise, I think his eyes were on a Bath player or two.
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I agree with NWW, Jones was probably there to look at a Bath player or two most likely Joe C. He seems to want/need a power runner and when fit and practiced, Joe C is a very good one. Sadly fragile.
I think he ought to be looking at Tom Willis as the 8, and confirming Jack as 7. Our starting backrow is for me, especially when Brad is starting, more what the England starting backrow ought to look like. I'd guess, only Jack is in any danger of getting picked.
I'm not sure if I'm pleased about that or not. I do think that the Willis brothers are likely in the squad for first selection after the RWC....whoever the coach is. Brad's been a waste (as far as England is concerned)
Across the team/squad, Tom at prop, Gaby at hooker ought to be considered - but Jones probably only wanted to see what Alfie was up to and came any way!
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I'd rather he just leave alone this Autumn. For the 6N OK but at the moment, we stabilisation within the squad. Injuries, again, are theatening to cause us grief.
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I'd rather he just leave alone this Autumn. For the 6N OK but at the moment, we stabilisation within the squad. Injuries, again, are theatening to cause us grief.
+1
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Tom Willis is too good for Eddie. he won't notice him. He goes for players who are flawed, so that he can notice that special something.
8)
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Cockanasinga, with all due respect to him, is a completely depressing international pick. Rarely to you run through people at international level and he doesn’t do much else.
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Cockanasinga, with all due respect to him, is a completely depressing international pick. Rarely to you run through people at international level and he doesn’t do much else.
When he first burst on the scene he offered some pace as well. I agree with your view, just trying to explain Jones' interest, perhaps as a Manu sub. England don't need a fragile bulky winger - they have real pace and a very safe 15.
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Younger (Phil) Cockanasiga (Tigers) looks a bit of a handful as well.
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Just Jack in the training squad.
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A three day squad this weekend, what a waste of time.
Are all of these guys unavailable for their teams now then?!
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Younger (Phil) Cockanasiga (Tigers) looks a bit of a handful as well.
Absolutely, as does Anyanwu at Quins.
In terms of 10s, with Farrell in the team and guaranteed to start, kicking is less relevant. But our players are mostly all a long way off international recognition. Porter is definitely behind JVP at Tigers, Mitchell at Saints.
Tom Willis is the absolute stand out but Eddie has no interest in playing him. Something must have gone on in that international camp he made, but didn't get capped.
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Tom Willis is the absolute stand out but Eddie has no interest in playing him. Something must have gone on in that international camp he made, but didn't get capped.
T.Willis has Billy and Dombrandt to contend with along Curry playing 8 despite not being an 8 and that's before you add Simmonds and Mercer coming back to compete with (for a RWC spot at least) into the mix.
I'm not sure Tom gets in ahead of Billy/Dombrandt. Curry will stay due to his versatility and then Mercer will come back just in time for the RWC and has been a stand-out player in the Top14. It's extremely competitive at 8.
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Simmonds is moving to France, and there's no guarantee that Eddie will pick Mercer. Tom's biggest problem is that Eddie doesn't seem to rate him, no matter how highly other players and coaches do, and how consistently he leads the stats.
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Simmonds is moving to France, and there's no guarantee that Eddie will pick Mercer. Tom's biggest problem is that Eddie doesn't seem to rate him, no matter how highly other players and coaches do, and how consistently he leads the stats.
Nothing new there with Eddie and some other players. It's not just Tom.
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Very true
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Simmonds is moving to France, and there's no guarantee that Eddie will pick Mercer. Tom's biggest problem is that Eddie doesn't seem to rate him, no matter how highly other players and coaches do, and how consistently he leads the stats.
Nothing new there with Eddie and some other players. It's not just Tom.
I think the problem is that Tom doesn't have the same platform to showcase his capabilities against better teams. I don't recall a game where he's neccessarily dominated or outshone Billy, Dombrandt etc... in a head-to-head. We've seen that an electric Simmonds in the Prem doesn't neccessarily look the same against the big European Teams, nor at International Level.
Why would Mercer come back, at a time when the big bucks are in France and the Prem Clubs are being squeezed by the Salary Cap, if he wasn't confident he was going to be competing for an England spot?
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Do we think Launch's time has been and gone? He's 31, and despite being (in my opinion) one of the best maulers the game has seen, is being overtaken by younger options like Chessum and Tizzard. Mobility being seen as an issue? I rate Ribbans - proper tough guy (albeit South African), but I can't really see a way back for Launch now?
Tom - well, you could argue it was a straight shootout between him and Tom Pearson, and Pearson got the nod. Not sure I'd have gone that way, but if it gives Tom the incentive to keep tearing it up for Wasps then great!
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Pearson is a 7, though. And to be fair, he looks real quality.
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Do we think Launch's time has been and gone?
I don't think Launch's series of injuries have helped him. Perhaps it's the only reason why Ewels and Hill have been persisted with. I'd have Launch there if fit for his Maul defence work which virtually no-one else seems to have - Itoje, perhaps. I'd quite like to see an Itoje/Lawes Second Row, but think Lawes is deemed too lightweight and also seen a decent third-option as a jumper.
Lawes/Itoje in the row opens up a back-row of Curry, J.Wills and Dombrandt/Billy which feels (to me) to have mobility, power and balance to it.
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Simmonds is moving to France, and there's no guarantee that Eddie will pick Mercer. Tom's biggest problem is that Eddie doesn't seem to rate him, no matter how highly other players and coaches do, and how consistently he leads the stats.
Nothing new there with Eddie and some other players. It's not just Tom.
If fit, I'd put a tenner on both Willis brothers being in the first post Jones squad, whoever the coach is. Jones seems to like picking players too soon (George Martin from Tigers say) and then dropping them "to learn" Then not picking when in great form (like Martin...)
But Jones' fans think it's some sort of master plan. An EA's fan I know was justifying Malins being dropped from England for the summer tour....but his love for Jones even outweighs his love for the EA's real stars......the top try scorer from last season I think (or near) and the FB when England looked fluent for one game in 2021 6Ns and selected most 2022 6Ns and dropped for summer tour.
Jones is invested in some sort of hybrid player madness meaning a really obvious back three selection of say May, Watson and Malins will never get selected when you can play a centre out of position or Furbank...
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Really don't get the Sam Simmonds pick, he will be playing in France apricate the season may not start in France but what is the point. Also why on earth is Ben Youngs still being picked
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Really don't get the Sam Simmonds pick, he will be playing in France apricate the season may not start in France but what is the point. Also why on earth is Ben Youngs still being picked
We've all been asking that final question for years now. No nearer to finding out the answer.
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I think that in an ideal world, Eddie wants a bulldozer at 8.
He wants a big heavy blunt instrument.
He wants the 8 to run through defences, and make holes with power, rather than guile.
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Looked through the training squad again....I tend to have observations that sound rather facetious but too many times reading the list, my reaction was WTF....
In the squad - several never capped players.....surely the last chance to make the RWC squad would have been the Oz tour and even then, that's pretty late.
Several players that you scratch your head about. I like Furbank, but not in front of Malins - prob one of last season's best players and with England experience - playing well in poor teams too. Why Joe C? He's barely shown that he can stay fit yet and really adds little at present. Youngs? Up front, is Mako international standard now? Sam S...not unless you're looking to play a very different game.
I look at the squad and I'm really not sure how we'd prefer to set up or play. Not sure who Jones thinks is the best combination at centre and alongside which 10. As for back three - nice to see May back, but too often in Oz - even when winning and especially last two 6Ns, we've looked like we were not convinced/had buy in to what we were being asked to do and I still have that feeling. Very few settled combinations.
Jones can easily select several ugly packs - but how we might play is lost to me at least....
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Fully agree Mike. There is warranted talk that Billy V and Dombrandt are better 8’s than TW. But a soon departing Simmonds? Eddie playing games I’m afraid. Cockanasinga - not for me. The icing on the cake is Tuilagi coming back in. We desperately need to find an answer at 12 and he won’t be it. I’ll be surprised if he makes the training squad. There really is no cohesive plan.
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We can't keep playing Smith at 10 and Farrell at 12. For me it will likely be Farrell at 10 with smith coming on if we need to change the game. Marchant is the best 13 and I agree how Malins is not in the squad is just so wrong
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Thanks Shugs - I'd argue for Tom at 8 to be given a chance, purely as he's delivered when very young against Prem teams and looks better - but Sam S....I'd argue for him at 6 in a different set up - but not going to happen.
I do realise there are lots of players....but just using those non selected you could pick a back three of Malins, Radwan and Thorley, centres Marchant and O'Connor, Uren and Ford (ok - officially injured!) and I'd have a decent idea of objectives!
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Tom is rather like Joe; you don't always notice him when he's there but you don't half notice when he isn't.
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Tom is rather like Joe; you don't always notice him when he's there but you don't half notice when he isn't.
In a season or two everyone is going to notice Tom
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We can't keep playing Smith at 10 and Farrell at 12. For me it will likely be Farrell at 10 with smith coming on if we need to change the game. Marchant is the best 13 and I agree how Malins is not in the squad is just so wrong Eddie Jones
Fixed that for you!
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We can't keep playing Smith at 10 and Farrell at 12. For me it will likely be Farrell at 10 with smith coming on if we need to change the game. Marchant is the best 13 and I agree how Malins is not in the squad is just so wrong Eddie Jones
Fixed that for you!
Thank you for doing that, you are right
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Tom's rugby potential was obvious when he was 19, and Jack always said his 'little brother' was better than he was. Finally other people are at last realising it too.
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We can't keep playing Smith at 10 and Farrell at 12. For me it will likely be Farrell at 10 with smith coming on if we need to change the game. Marchant is the best 13 and I agree how Malins is not in the squad is just so wrong Eddie Jones
Fixed that for you!
Thank you for doing that, you are right
I get the impression Malins is one of those Wade types, who only needs one or two outings before being discarded for whatever comes to mind, whilst certain players have infinite chances.
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Just read the article in The Grauniad which is about Jones and what he's doing/thinking. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/27/breakdown-eddie-jones-england-rugby-world-cup
I've got to the point now where I'm too often uncertain if Jones is taking the piss or actually providing something for journalists that relates to England and the RWC. Thinking under pressure - this article - isn't exactly new. T-CUP anyone? And the article suggests that England actually have a Plan A....Or believe they do.
Jones seems to want players that conform, and yet seems surprised that England lack ideas.....(2 recent 6Ns say) England have always been able to win any game as they can pick a number of very ugly packs - hell from those not in the squad you could pick say West, Cruise, Cole, Launch, Stooke (no bias...) G Martin, C Nield, T Willis and that would work. It showed vs Ireland last 6Ns when even with a red in 2 mins, England were physically competitive - but out smarted, unlike in 2021 when we were just crap vs Ireland!
But it seems they have been found out. Running Billy/a.n. other into contact isn't a winning strategy c.f. 6Ns games vs Scotland last 2 years....They loved it! And hoping Manu is fit is a fairly limiting strategy. We've been lucky with Watson and May being fit so often and they are fast, but we've now dropped Marchant and Slade....so how to get the ball to the wings?
As I said - probably just me.....
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Just read the article in The Grauniad which is about Jones and what he's doing/thinking. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/27/breakdown-eddie-jones-england-rugby-world-cup
I've got to the point now where I'm too often uncertain if Jones is taking the piss or actually providing something for journalists that relates to England and the RWC. Thinking under pressure - this article - isn't exactly new. T-CUP anyone? And the article suggests that England actually have a Plan A....Or believe they do.
Jones seems to want players that conform, and yet seems surprised that England lack ideas.....(2 recent 6Ns say) England have always been able to win any game as they can pick a number of very ugly packs - hell from those not in the squad you could pick say West, Cruise, Cole, Launch, Stooke (no bias...) G Martin, C Nield, T Willis and that would work. It showed vs Ireland last 6Ns when even with a red in 2 mins, England were physically competitive - but out smarted, unlike in 2021 when we were just crap vs Ireland!
But it seems they have been found out. Running Billy/a.n. other into contact isn't a winning strategy c.f. 6Ns games vs Scotland last 2 years....They loved it! And hoping Manu is fit is a fairly limiting strategy. We've been lucky with Watson and May being fit so often and they are fast, but we've now dropped Marchant and Slade....so how to get the ball to the wings?
As I said - probably just me.....
No, it really isn't just you.
We have the same conversation at work every time an England squad is released, to the point, that I almost dread every training camp/competitive squad announcement, as it will be the same gasps of horror as we read , Ben Youngs etc etc....
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Come on guys. EJ knows best. Speaking as a Wales supporter.
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Come on guys. EJ knows best. Speaking as a Wales supporter.
Luckily, I've married into a Welsh family...... :)