Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: wycombewasp on October 07, 2023, 07:16:39 PM
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OMG England have beaten a tier 2 nation by 1 point, It's the 2nd coming, discuss.
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OMG plodding England have beaten a tier 2 nation by 1 point, It's the 2nd coming, discuss.
FTFY
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England do an impression of Dick Turpin and steal a match against the mighty Samoa.
Farrell does his impression of a dick.
Farrell loses a staring contest with the ball whilst clicking his neck.
Fat Billy comes on and achieves the near impossible of looking even less threatening that the donkey he replaced.
Borthwick looks as clueless as Eddie and ignores position.
Borthwick is so thick he does not realise it is Ford or Farrell.
You can get this stuff on a bingo card you know.
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Loved seeing Lima again, and playing so well too. Congrats to the player who thumped Fazlet. About time someone did! I wish so much that Samoa had won.
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Fiji must be pooing themselves at the thought of having to take this mob on.
Comiserations to Jonny Wilkinson for having his record taken by a thug whose international career should have ended long ago.
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The whole structure of Rugby England is decaying at a faster rate of knots than a pig going though a bacon slicer.
Get rid of the whole hierarchy from the CEO down to the coaching structure,
Then appoint SCW as CEO and let him shake the whole rotten apple cart and build for the future.
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What struck me most was how the entertainment level rose each time Samoa had the ball and disappeared when England had it. There was a 10 minute period in the second half when we just reset scrum after scrum before Care went over. England are incredibly poor. They are dull into the bargain. Then throw in Farrell and Vunipola whining like children to the ref. We?ll get smashed by anyone a bit more clinical and possibly Fiji. The worst thing of all is I can?t get myself to be disappointed about it due to the way they play and behave.
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There has never been a more overrated player than Farrell in the game's history. Name one.
Geech's ' test match animal ' comments have followed Farrell around and have been trotted out ad nauseum ,but, let us be honest, brutally honest - Geech is a lovely man who embodies much that is good in the game, but he was a very poor selector whose off field career at international level has a lot of Ls.
Farrell is spectacularly uncreative, and if he were French would barely have made 10 caps. His last three years have been mind-blowingly appalling with ball in hand and boot. His entire club career has been playing for cheats with a spare international pack on the bench giving him an armchair ride in addition to an inflated salary. He is playing on reputation and frankly that was over inflated to begin with. Forget thuggery, forget winding up refs, the actual basics- he hasn't played well since 2020- should be enough.
I look forward to him not having a world cup winners medal, and will continue to call for Borthwick's sacking whilst he is enthralled to the myth.
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What struck me most was how the entertainment level rose each time Samoa had the ball and disappeared when England had it. There was a 10 minute period in the second half when we just reset scrum after scrum before Care went over. England are incredibly poor. They are dull into the bargain. Then throw in Farrell and Vunipola whining like children to the ref. We?ll get smashed by anyone a bit more clinical and possibly Fiji. The worst thing of all is I can?t get myself to be disappointed about it due to the way they play and behave.
That's fair. Being dull and poor really is tedious. I really was hoping they would score at the end, after that break!
Re the Sarries players - I suppose I ought not have been surprised - but OF seemed to be seeking out every bit of niggle and trying to wind up people who really didn't care. That we picked OF and Manu at 12 and 13 and then seemed surprised that the midfield wasn't going well indicated a team/coaching set up that really isn't looking at what is going on. Or there's a central clique that can't be dropped....
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I'm conflicted.
I want the team do well for the players, they didn't pick the team or decide game plan, they have put a lot of work in to get to this point, but also, if not more importantly, for all those who've worked to get them there. Their parents, wives and families, coaches who've worked with them through their career especially when they were children, the clubs and schools they played at when young and supported them and the myriad of people who have been involved supporting them in other ways.
On the other hand, if they do get to the semi-final or even further the RFU will be able to point to it and claim their approach is working. Not only would that be an insult to anyone who can see but also a calamity for the future of the game. We really can't go on playing this a type rugby at international level as its so obvious that we are being left behind and as others have pointed out, if that's how England play then players who want to play for England will have to learn to play that way at club level. It will be made even worse if they bring in central contracts.
On a more specific point, I've said it before but that doesn't look like a happy squad. Nobody smiling, Ford's face when he came off was a look of thunder, all those trite comments we get in the press: "Rugby World Cup 2023: Steve Borthwick says England must take 'learnings' into quarter-finals" really? Is that all you get from highly paid PR gurus?, players looking like they've never met.
I'm not as down on Borthwick as some because he got thrown in at short notice, but if we don't see root and branch reform in the 6N then maybe its time for him to go as well as the top echelons of the RFU.
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I think the RFU will only notice if there was a visible drop in attendances at Twickenham. I don't know if we will ever really see that.
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Fiji warm up was very down.
Can't see those sort of Nov matches selling out any time soon.
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I think the RFU will only notice if there was a visible drop in attendances at Twickenham. I don't know if we will ever really see that.
The Prem final will be down. Supporters of all 13 clubs were used to buying tickets and making it a day out. You only had to look around the crowd on final day to see the variety of shirts and scarves. Losing three clubs will impact that (plus times being a lot harder).
'Lesser' international games will start to see tier 3 being closed, and big gaps elsewhere. That will start to spread to top tier games. The problem that they have is that attendance (or lack thereof) is very visible, even if the broadcasters cameras face the most populated stands, and even if the pundits and commentators do not mention it.
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I?m torn as to whether we actually have the players to deploy that could make a difference. Pack wise I don?t see many who I would select over what we have. Willis x 2 should be squad certainties. Ford or Smith at 10 is a must. Of course the big issue is that Farrell must be dropped. So who plays 12? Tuilagi hasn?t had a good game in years for me so it would be Daly/Lawrence at 13. It?s a criminal waste that Malins isn?t playing 15. A back three of him, Arundell and Watson when fit would get some thinking. So I think we do have options - I just can?t see us taking them.
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I?m torn as to whether we actually have the players to deploy that could make a difference. Pack wise I don?t see many who I would select over what we have. Willis x 2 should be squad certainties. Ford or Smith at 10 is a must. Of course the big issue is that Farrell must be dropped. So who plays 12? Tuilagi hasn?t had a good game in years for me so it would be Daly/Lawrence at 13. It?s a criminal waste that Malins isn?t playing 15. A back three of him, Arundell and Watson when fit would get some thinking. So I think we do have options - I just can?t see us taking them.
Selection isn't the problem with England, especially in the backs. It's their style and game plan that is lacking. They generate such slow ball it is impossible to create real momentum. That's why Alex Mitchell looks so bad currently. He can't play his trademark quick and sniping game with the ball his pack deliver. Unless England can fix that it doesn't matter who you have in the backs.
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Billy V states in the papers this morning that England are the bad guys of the world cup but " WE DON'T CARE", what absolute arrogance, he should ask himself why, is it because they are a second rate team led by an over ratted captain and coached by a sub standard coaching team who play such bloody awful turgid Rugby, another question who in the England set up would have a place in one of the top 4 sides certainly not Billy V.
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I'm conflicted.
I want the team do well for the players, they didn't pick the team or decide game plan, they have put a lot of work in to get to this point, but also, if not more importantly, for all those who've worked to get them there. Their parents, wives and families, coaches who've worked with them through their career especially when they were children, the clubs and schools they played at when young and supported them and the myriad of people who have been involved supporting them in other ways.
On the other hand, if they do get to the semi-final or even further the RFU will be able to point to it and claim their approach is working. Not only would that be an insult to anyone who can see but also a calamity for the future of the game. We really can't go on playing this a type rugby at international level as its so obvious that we are being left behind and as others have pointed out, if that's how England play then players who want to play for England will have to learn to play that way at club level. It will be made even worse if they bring in central contracts.
I would love to throw my full support behind England but it's virtually impossible to do so with the frankly abysmal rugby they are playing coupled with a coaching team selecting players who are so past their best it's embarrassing. England may well sneak past Fiji but they will then face the winner of France v South Africa (I would expect France to prevail) either of whom will absolutely hammer England. France beat us at Twickenham in the Six Nations with a record score, if we meet them in a world Cup Semi Final on home soil I would expect that record to be smashed. Perhaps that will be enough to make the RFU see what every rugby supporter in England is seeing which is that things are not working and cannot continue in the present form.
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For me it is the difference between the grunts and shouts when England somehow win a scrum (often through cheating, oh, I know, let's call them 'dark arts' like the commentators do), or the whinging and moaning of fazlet and billy at the ref. Versus the sheer joy that I saw whilst watching Portugal the other day. THAT game for me is what rugby is about, including what happened later in the changing rooms. Seeing the heart of those players. They didn't just empty their tanks, they went much further than that, for some of them this was their 'last' game.
I don't enjoy watching a game with England on the pitch.
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To be fair its much easier to act and react like that when your sole objective is to win one game, any game.
I loved that game, it was great to watch, but Portugal had nothing to lose given the draw with Georgia was being called a win but for the last kick. If watching games with nothing resting on it is your thing then the bottom of the Prem match-ups without relegation at season end are for you. ;D
What I find pretty crap is the press attempts to pile on this narrative of no-one supports England anymore. The Times today has a story about the 1000s of unsold tickets available for the 1/4 final in Marseille "even though England qualified 2 weeks ago". The tickets on the official sale website didn't go on sale until yesterday, so doesn't matter when England qualified you couldn't buy them any earlier. I checked the resale site Sunday night and there were 135 tickets available, Monday night a little under 300, by yesterday near 2000. So ticket holders are slowly putting unwanted seats up for sale. The Times has a dig at England clinging to the line these are Aussie ticket sellers. Wouldn't surprise me, same happened in 2007 in France and 2019 in Japan.
It's not so much not supporting England, my Marseille weekend in Week 1 was bloody expensive. Trains or flights and hotels have surge priced to the max. Not being able to go and not wanting to go are not the same thing at all.
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Sorry Lwasp - Nelly and Nigel Med said it all for me. I have not been a supporter of England/Saracens for many years now (about 7 or more) despite being English. I dislike Fazlet/Itoje/EJ et al beyond belief and their 'play' and 'dark arts' are reprehensible. And embarrassing.
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I think for me England struggling is a means to an end. Ironically that end is England not struggling! Say, for example we squeeze past Fiji, we?ll be contesting a SF which can easily be spun as a good news story despite the fact we?re not very good. And that?s not an opinion, that?s fact based on results. If the narrative that we did ok prevails no change will happen. When you throw into the mix that we?re incredibly dull to watch and somewhat unlikeable in our antics it?s even clearer that a change is required.
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Sadly, I think Eddie has a lot to answer for. OK, he wasn't alone but he had more opportunity than any other English manager to lead them to great (all right then, better) achievements. He is now seemingly working his magic on Oz.
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I loved that game, it was great to watch, but Portugal had nothing to lose given the draw with Georgia was being called a win but for the last kick. If watching games with nothing resting on it is your thing then the bottom of the Prem match-ups without relegation at season end are for you. ;D
England also had nothing to play for, with the group already won, so the argument that games are typically more open and entertaining with nothing resting on them doesn't really stack up!
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Several things come together with England - that really require a line in the sand if change is going to come....
The investment in age group especially from around 2006, led to England getting good results at JRWC and I saw a back three of Wade, Watson and Yarde tear apart a more than decent Wales U-20 team in the 6N's. It was very liberating to watch
Lancaster was starting to make progress. I think he was underrated. 80% 6Ns record and touring NZ, and beating them in a really good AI performance - before the RWC foul up. And that conveyor belt of player from the U-20's was handed over to Jones...Who was called a genius for winning one GS, but managed to also produce 3 of the equal worst 6Ns ever whilst seemed enthralled by the Sarries "mafia". All whilst pee'ing off players (my bias) like Dan R who were never given a chance. And giving games to players like Martin from Tigers when he's played less than 8 Prem games....
One really good (Japan-a-like) win in the RWC was allowed to reinforce the all powerful Jones' position. And that surely built the regime that had 17 assistant coaches over a short period and post 2020 a clear drop off in both performance and results and seemingly attitude within the camp. We got the hint with John Mitchell joining. And when Jones was sacked - Nick Evans reported (in Graniad article) that England had no systems and were lacking, generally.
And that allowance of all the good work done with junior/age group teams to go to waste whilst England played increasingly at the whim of the coach and we see the evidence of all those failings in a performance like that vs Samoa. England, an unlikeable and poorly performing team.
And if the rumours are correct for this w/e - Ford dropped, OF at 10 and Smith at 15....Seems like making it up as you go along - with the undropable Farrell at the heart of matters.
We'll only see if this was all "just for the RWC" when we see the squad for the 2024 6Ns. But the Jones/Sarries era has not made supporting England an easy gig.....
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Surely Japan can't be daft enough to take Eddie on board given his past history with England and with Oz? Also his apparent double dealing?? George Smith is a coach (I think) with Japan. Wonder if he'll stay????
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Sorry Lwasp - Nelly and Nigel Med said it all for me. I have not been a supporter of England/Saracens for many years now (about 7 or more) despite being English. I dislike Fazlet/Itoje/EJ et al beyond belief and their 'play' and 'dark arts' are reprehensible. And embarrassing.
I fully understand Wonky. I'm not trying to persuade anyone they should support this England. I was a season ticket holder at Wasps because I too liked a certain brand of rugby, this England is certainly not playing it. But, I also think discussions of the state of our game are way more nuanced than the press make it, and once a narrative sticks its very hard to talk about anything else.
There were more empty seats in the England Argentina game than the Scotland South Africa one, notably in premium seats (either Cat 1 and/or hospitality). Easy to say England's boring style put people off, but the reality is England didn't set the prices and Cat 1 for England's game were ?84/ticket more than for the Scotland fixture. Didn't ever see that in the reports.
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What worries me us that when we get knocked out there will be another investigation into why we did so badly which comes to the conclusion that, far from being too Borthwickian, we weren't Borthwickian enough.
I say that partly tongue in cheek but there's more than an element of truth in there.
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There we go Ford dropped for he who cannot tackle. Just like the football team pick the name and the team they play for rather than form.🤔
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What worries me us that when we get knocked out there will be another investigation into why we did so badly which comes to the conclusion that, far from being too Borthwickian, we weren't Borthwickian enough.
I say that partly tongue in cheek but there's more than an element of truth in there.
Ah yes, but for me that is not something to worry about. For the RWC, the damage was long ago done. Can it get rescued by the next RWC? Not sure. But we have enough time for 2031, assuming I am still around by then.
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What worries me us that when we get knocked out there will be another investigation into why we did so badly which comes to the conclusion that, far from being too Borthwickian, we weren't Borthwickian enough.
I say that partly tongue in cheek but there's more than an element of truth in there.
Ah yes, but for me that is not something to worry about. For the RWC, the damage was long ago done. Can it get rescued by the next RWC? Not sure. But we have enough time for 2031, assuming I am still around by then.
It's possible. Reinstating the age group emphasis would be a useful step regardless - to ensure that in '31 there are still good junior players coming through. Just like from 2008 onwards.
But for the next RWC, it will require some quite brave decisions on selection of players, central contracts or similar, relationships with clubs and perhaps a new coach. The damage was done mainly with a set of players that mostly ought not be in consideration for the next 6Ns, let alone the RWC 27.
England have lost a lot of talent by pee'ing people about, have done similar since 2019 with the assistant coaching team and were increasingly - it seems - drawn into a Jones master plan. When there really wasn't one.
So I'd hope by 6Ns next year, we've seen the back of Farrell, Youngs, Care, Manu, both Vuni's, Lawes, George, Cole, Marler, Daly and May. And we're looking at a very different selection and mindset. I don't think there's a lack of talent to be at least competent. It was 4 6N's ago we were last competent. And that was off the back of the RWC.
But damn all will happen without the RFU accepting that it's not the all seeing and all powerful visionaries they think they are. So, I'm not hopeful.
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Selection isn't the problem with England, especially in the backs. It's their style and game plan that is lacking. They generate such slow ball it is impossible to create real momentum. That's why Alex Mitchell looks so bad currently. He can't play his trademark quick and sniping game with the ball his pack deliver. Unless England can fix that it doesn't matter who you have in the backs.
I see England have picked the same bunch of forwards for the QF so are unlikely to generate much quicker ball than last week. Inevitability they'll be kicking and chasing for the whole match and hoping Fiji make mistakes in their own half. I know Wales do a lot of this too but at least they are a breakdown force that play off turnovers and have a huge defence. Unlike England.
I suspect with Fiji reverting to underdogs they will raise their game and blow England away at the breakdown. I doubt they'll make as many mistakes as England are hoping for either.
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Come on Fiji. Trounce 'em.
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I've been trying to be objective and think about why you would build that team around OF.
I haven't seen the the stats recently but of the 3 he's probably still the best place kicker, but by observation I'd say not by much over the past couple of years.
Leaving aside the liability of his dodgy technique and temperament he is the best defender of the 3.
We keep keep being told he's a great captain. Most of that is subjective but he doesn't look the sort of character I would have called a good leader when I was in the army, but be that as it may we have to take what we are currently being told.
And that's it as far as I can see.
On the other side of the ledger:
His distribution and play making is so plodding they've had to put a play maker at FB. Does the risk of a mistake there outweigh the benefit of having OF at 10? I'm not convinced. Much as I like and rate Smith I think I'd prefer a FB who knows his trade and is likely to be in the right position when Fiji inevitably break the defensive line . Kicking isn't part of Fiji's normal game plan but I bet we see a bit more of it to test Smith.
If England want to play a kicking game, of the 3 Ford is the best kicker out of hand and its not close. And Smith is the best at the little grubbers. I'm not sure about the other 2 but Ford's drop goal skills are going to be worrying every defence, causing them to push up a bit and concede penalties.
Smith is the best and most visionary play maker, I suppose its not that important if you want to play a turgid kicking game.
As for captain, there does appear to be a lack of calm heads around and Lawes, who I have rated quite highly in the past, didn't excel in Farrell's absence, but he wasn't bad.
Anyway, that's me thinking aloud and open to be corrected and we'll see what happens on Sunday.
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After 3 games of this years 6n, OF had a sub 50 pc kicking rate.
He was benched for the next match.
Can't remember the last one, I mean it is Engjand- and of course we all saw the warm ups.
So I think it is safe to say has not had a good game for England with boot this year.
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Not just the boot, the rest of him hasn't been up to scratch.
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That goes without saying.
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The absurdity of the WC draw being so early: if England win this afternoon and France lose tonight, England will be the most successful northern hemisphere side 8)
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I do like the Fiji National Anthem.
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I take back most of what I said. OF was good, kicked well out of hand and made some good telling passes.
That must rate as the best performance for quite some time.