Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: RogerE on August 19, 2019, 02:38:32 PM
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Article in the Guardian about his mental problems that led to his leaving to start a PhD at Oxford
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/19/kearnan-myall-england-players-mental-health-training-camp?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true (https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/19/kearnan-myall-england-players-mental-health-training-camp?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true)
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Wow!
That is a very powerrful description of his mindset, even when he was playing well for us. It should be a mandatory reading for some coaches at club and international level.
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Good god that is powerful and he needs plaudits for going public about his time. Well done Charlie Davies.
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Do Wasps have a team psychologist does anyone know?
Might be something to be asked at the next Fans forum?
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As much as getting the right support mechanisms in place are important I think the most important thing from that interview is the need to address the mindset that admitting to a problem is a sign of weakness. You can have all the team psychologists you like on staff, but if the culture (real or perceived) does not tolerate players seeking them out they will do little good.
I hope his research yields some useful conclusions and suggestions for improvement.
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As much as getting the right support mechanisms in place are important I think the most important thing from that interview is the need to address the mindset that admitting to a problem is a sign of weakness. You can have all the team psychologists you like on staff, but if the culture (real or perceived) does not tolerate players seeking them out they will do little good.
I hope his research yields some useful conclusions and suggestions for improvement.
As I know, unfortunately, asking for help is the hardest step. Asking ought to be seen as a sign of strength - I mean you wouldn't break a leg and not go to the doc....but it needs to be as "normal" as any other form of request for help.
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The difference with depression is that it is not always obvious to yourself, if you are the one being depressed and you are the one trying to spot it, it can be far from immediately apparent. There can be a lot of "silly" things that build up and up, not things that on their own might be considered a problem, and suddenly "snap" something from the outside trivial can lead you wanting it all to end.
However, an atmosphere where it feels safe to admit problems would be a good start.
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Asking for help when you have depression is one of the hardest things to do. Even with all the media coverage that is being focused on asking if someone is OK its not easy to say you are not. This does not just apply to rugby players and other sports men.
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“I imagine suicide is very different with different people,” he says, looking down at his flat white. “With some people it’s a cry for help but that wasn’t what I was doing at all. I just wanted the situation to be over.
This is the quote from the Guardian I could relate to.
Having a really bad mental situation is one many people, me included a couple of years ago, just wanted to get out of. The real shock is when you start to consider what you might do to "get the situation to be over"
Shocked the hell out of me and I was glad I was seeing someone, frankly.....
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How do Wasps come out of the article?
Do we now have better support mechanisms in place?
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For me the biggest thing this throws up is that now more people, especially men, are willing to ask for help it shows just how widespread the issue is. It's awful to think so many have and continue to suffer in silence. Anything that highlights the plight many go through can only help hopefully and I applaud Myall for speaking out.
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A really thought provoking article. Kearnan has to be congratulated for coming through this. Hats off to Charlie Davis in getting his team mate back from the brink.
Most people have been through some form of mental crisis - myself included - in their lives. Many will not admit to it. Talking to others whether it be healthcare professionals, friends, family or colleagues does help. It means that the individual is not in it alone. Recognising the triggers is important.
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Question re what KM said about England
I've been asked by a friend on KM's comments on the England squad and players hating it. Trying to get a feel for how widely such a view of attending England camp would be shared and if anyone has talked to Wasps or other players who have been to England squads?
Seems Jones' tenure of teams certainly goes through "phases". And given Kearns comment re the Japan squad - wouldn't come as a surprise.
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One thing I feel needs to be explored more deeply is why people get depressed. It clearly afflicts a lot of people and probably has many varied causes. I would think that only by knowing more about the causes can you prevent it rather than simply concentrate on treating it. I have been there too but thankfully I didn''t suffer the severity of some.
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His comments re England are interesting.
“It’s nothing to do with being worried about the physical aspects of training, or the media. It’s a combination of pressure, scrutiny, what’s going to be said and what they’re going to be made to do within the confines of the camp.”
He had issues with age group camps as well so its not just Eddie Jones' tenure.
There is an argument that putting people under pressure brings out the best in people, but there has to be a balance and if you are going to do it, you need to have the correct professionals in place to help those who don't "cope". Given Steve Peters success with the Olympic cycling team (many of them still see him for psychological help long after they've retired) I am very surprised that more isn't being done at the top level in rugby.
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https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/club-statement-player-welfare-and-mental-health/ (https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/club-statement-player-welfare-and-mental-health/)
Wasps have released a statement
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Depression in its various forms is a nasty, unforgiving thing to have. I know from experience and luckily haven't had an episode for a few years but my 20's and 30's were riddled with them. It doesn't care about what kind of life you have and this article is so powerful and insightful.
Kearnan's story just proves that you can appear to have everything at your feet but you can also be in complete turmoil, the bit about the Quins game summed it up perfectly and it brought back memories of my own.
There now seems to be more people in the public eye, especially men, now speaking out which is good. However, the stigma remains for many and there is still a long way to go.
Hopefully Kearnan's studies will enable him to help others and also help him to deal with his own demons, it would also be fantastic to see him get a Blue in December.
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Its slightly disappointing that the headline is about England players not wanting to go into camp rather than about a player wanting to take his own life, but I guess that's to be expected. After all rugby outside the 6 nations & the RWC doesnt exist for a lot of people.
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I'm guessing a lot of people peering into the goldfish bowl from the outside assume that because the players earn more than most of us, that they are earning money from something that probably started out as a hobby/past-time, that they should be happy and content but rugby players as a group will represent a cross-section of the population... but unlike most of us they do live life in a goldfish bowl.
There will be players with alcohol and drugs problems, some might have gambling/money problems.
Some have relative and family problems. Paul Doran-Jones effectively gave up rugby when he and his wife/girlfriend split up and was effectively denied acess to his daughter/son.
Some may be gay (statistically its highly unlikely that there aren't any gay rugby players) and will be struggling with how they might be thought of within the macho world of rugby if they open up.
I hope Myall takes this further with his studies and then can give something back , using his experience to help others find the light at the end of the tunnel.
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And somewhat predictably - re England - denials are in place....
The England assistant coach, Scott Wisemantel, denied Eddie Jones’s regime is too intense, insisting the management have received no formal adverse feedback.
“In the current environment there have been no complaints,” Wisemantel said.
Hmmm....so would you complain given that would jeopardise your England place?
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Some interesting tweets from @RUGBY_STR_COACH on the back of Joe Simpson tweeting Myalls article.
"I loved working in pro rugby but wasps environment comes at a price. Player depression, drug & alcohol use. Players leaving in droves (often for huge pay cuts). Massive staff culture of fear and finger pointing. This is the overdue beginning of the end for that culture."
He also screen shots texts which he says are from a former player (doesn't specify which club but the implication is wasps) - "Got depressed when I was there. Now I've left I feel loads better."
Now some of this doesn't ring true to me: drug & alcohol abuse? Players leaving in droves? Huge pay cuts?
Yet at the same time players are re-signing or joining from other clubs. Some that have left have stated that they wanted to stay.
However, there have been rumours of issues mentioned by external parties with a "source" in the squad before, maybe they were truer than we thought?
RUGBY_STR_COACH is the online coaching website for Keir Wenham-Flatt. He was Academy Strength & conditioning head coach between July 2010 & Jan 2013. As Dai joined in 2011, not sure how much interaction he would have had with Dai at that time & how relevant his views are to the current coaching team & environment, but you would expect him to still be in contact with players he may of coached then so I don't think his views can be totally dismissed
ANy on
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Some interesting tweets from @RUGBY_STR_COACH on the back of Joe Simpson tweeting Myalls article.
"I loved working in pro rugby but wasps environment comes at a price. Player depression, drug & alcohol use. Players leaving in droves (often for huge pay cuts). Massive staff culture of fear and finger pointing. This is the overdue beginning of the end for that culture."
He also screen shots texts which he says are from a former player (doesn't specify which club but the implication is wasps) - "Got depressed when I was there. Now I've left I feel loads better."
Now some of this doesn't ring true to me: drug & alcohol abuse? Players leaving in droves? Huge pay cuts?
Yet at the same time players are re-signing or joining from other clubs. Some that have left have stated that they wanted to stay.
However, there have been rumours of issues mentioned by external parties with a "source" in the squad before, maybe they were truer than we thought?
RUGBY_STR_COACH is the online coaching website for Keir Wenham-Flatt. He was Academy Strength & conditioning head coach between July 2010 & Jan 2013. As Dai joined in 2011, not sure how much interaction he would have had with Dai at that time & how relevant his views are to the current coaching team & environment, but you would expect him to still be in contact with players he may of coached then so I don't think his views can be totally dismissed
ANy on
Yes, I read that too and wasn't really sure quite what to make of it. Sadly, you're right to think that this guy may be onto something. The same guy gushes about Saracens in another separate tweet.
However, would you have all our "bigger names" still with us? Thinking Dan Robson (who signed a long term contract last year), Joe Launchbury, Jimmy Gopperth et al. Also, the lads from other Prem clubs , like Ben Vellacott from Gloucs , surely wouldn't have signed for us if our environment was toxic? Either that or Dai has an incredible way with his words...
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The same arguments are espoused over Sale vis-a-vis Diamond- how come so many re-sign if he is a bully? I guess one person can react differently to another to the sane stimulus, so a wider picture needs multiple people to its formation. I guess we need more info to begin to get an informed judgement about Sale, and more so for Wasps where we have dealt with rumours more than facts.
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I think everyone knows who is dropping rumours.
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Wasn't 2010-2013 when money was basically all gone? And a load of old boys retired etc?
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I think everyone knows who is dropping rumours.
I don’t... who?
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I think everyone knows who is dropping rumours.
I don’t... who?
Neither do I, but I thought I was the only one!!!! ;D ;D
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There are at least 3 of us then!
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Make that four...
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That'll be five then.
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Hask would be my guess but then, who am I to know!
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Hask would be my guess but then, who am I to know!
But Hask wanted to stay with us, wouldn't he look kind of stupid to then start slating the club?????
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Hask would be my guess but then, who am I to know!
But Hask wanted to stay with us, wouldn't he look kind of stupid to then start slating the club?????
He didn't like being snubbed by the club. Didn't get what he wanted. Quite bitter, I believe (though he says not). Judging by his season with Saints, I think we made the correct decision.
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Hask would be my guess but then, who am I to know!
But Hask wanted to stay with us, wouldn't he look kind of stupid to then start slating the club?????
He didn't like being snubbed by the club. Didn't get what he wanted. Quite bitter, I believe (though he says not). Judging by his season with Saints, I think we made the correct decision.
None of which necessarily means he has been slating the club. As I said, surely he'd look totally stupid were he to do so???
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It is someone who cannot spell "indictment".
Beyond that I think we run the risk of suspicion and repetition creating reality.
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Interesting follow up article by Ben Ryan in today's Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/sep/02/kearnan-myall-rugby-profound-cultural-change (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/sep/02/kearnan-myall-rugby-profound-cultural-change)
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Interesting article from Ben Ryan
Its a bit like sports - least some sports - are lagging behind in the management of people for performance. But this ought not to be the case - or news. Even playing sports at a decent amateur level showed up those who were better or worse at managing sports sides and I believe my sports experience as a team captain helped me in whatever success I managed in my professional career. But the one thing that stood out was that there were clear limitations to "macho" management and that you nearly always did your best work for managers who stood behind you and supported your success
Now, I was lucky to do an MSc in management, I learned a lot from this as well as a lot from the load of casual jobs I did around being a student. And the key really was - most of the time - to provide positive challenges for people. Nothing was gained from shouting people out - who were having a bad day - it just made them withdraw and perform worse - or in a risk adverse way.....
Whilst Alex Ferguson was famous for the "hairdryer" incidents...his players also knew he was in their corner - otherwise - you'd doubt such a large number of young players would have come through to success. I hope rugby can learn the lessons - given what Kearnan has alluded to in his interview and what Ryan has suggested too. The alternative is not an attractive option.
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Ben Ryan articulate and considered as always. He’s a great mind who I wish could be more involved with the England Setup (he won’t because of the RFU). I’d love to have him at Wasps as a DoR/Head Coach, but think he’s capable of bigger and better things.
The culture he describes in the first part of his article isn’t unique to Sport (and I don’t think he is suggesting it is) there many of the same issues in the corporate world with lots of stories in the Financial, Professional Services and Consultancy markets as well as the tech sector (that I work within).
Lots is made about culture in the tech sector and you see ever competing US West Coast starts-up talking about free food, offices with everything you could wish for in them, unlimited holidays etc etc etc...
But often the reality is one of high-pressure, unrealistic expectations, many Sales & Marketing employees so finely tuned that they operate on the edge of their sanity (or risk being booted out). It’s high reward, but high risk and in many of them, there isn’t the same psychological management and care as there is around performance/training.
It’s something that as a society, we need to get much better at embracing mental wellness as much as physical wellness and mental pre-had as such.
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He talks well on a few subjects, but I'd quite like to see him actually achieve something in XVs before offering him such a major role.
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I agree its not unique to sports - but away from the madder marketing areas - having worked in and with the finance and consultancy people from the major Firms this side of the water - there is at least a recognition that whilst setting tough targets is a good thing - it does, if you wish for even medium term success, mean taking people with you. And that success is and ought to be a shared experience