Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Westy68 on November 30, 2019, 11:04:14 AM
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I found it very difficult and uncomfortable watching the EA's last night, especially with so many under paid international players. I disliked them prior to, what we all already knew, finally coming out.
For me they are still cheating and putting two fingers up to everyone in the meantime. I hate this lets circle the wagons rubbish, they are not innocent and it looks like the EA don't care.
Having a big problem with that, as it is spoiling the beautiful game
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Full agreement with that. Also the commentators noting they were getting off with offsides had me switching over to Maldon v Newport. Lower footy played like it used to be.
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A pity that Bath were not at their best.
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A pity that Bath were not at their best.
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Agree totally. The game felt flat to me. Lots of niggle from Saracens. I'm sorry I just can no stand any of them players coaches brand however you want to cover it. They have tarnished a game I love and everytime I hear their play praised it makes me sick to stomach. Something has to change. For me not enough has been said about the players. It's all about Wray. Well if you didn't use agents then surely the players themselves made the dubious deals. Each and everyone one of them should be tarnished. BV is an utter tool does very little on the field just niggles and makes gestures at crowd. Elliot fits in well. A petulant idiot.
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Agree totally. The game felt flat to me. Lots of niggle from Saracens. I'm sorry I just can no stand any of them players coaches brand however you want to cover it. They have tarnished a game I love and everytime I hear their play praised it makes me sick to stomach. Something has to change. For me not enough has been said about the players. It's all about Wray. Well if you didn't use agents then surely the players themselves made the dubious deals. Each and everyone one of them should be tarnished. BV is an utter tool does very little on the field just niggles and makes gestures at crowd. Elliot fits in well. A petulant idiot.
I've posted almost the same sentiments as this and above on another thread before reading this thread.. so apologies if it seems I'm duplicating a theme.
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I found it very difficult and uncomfortable watching the EA's last night, especially with so many under paid international players. I disliked them prior to, what we all already knew, finally coming out.
For me they are still cheating and putting two fingers up to everyone in the meantime. I hate this lets circle the wagons rubbish, they are not innocent and it looks like the EA don't care.
Having a big problem with that, as it is spoiling the beautiful game
No - its not just you. I refused to watch last night.
The "circle the wagons" narrative is sick inducing and that their starting XV had over 500 caps just means nothing has changed and two fingers are being put up at everyone else.
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Yes, fully agree. Everyone connected with the game can see that it is perfectly obvious that you simply cannot assemble a squad such as theirs and remain in the cap. And yet they continue to accrue points. It risks making the competition a farce. As for their "us against the world" faux narrative that will just enrage others further. The cap is an essential part of keeping the game safe. Two things have to happen. Firstly it needs to be simplified. It's the myriad of small print that enables those who seek to to find loopholes. Secondly the retrospective nature of assessing compliance needs to switch so that checks are made up front. That would avoid what we have now with Sarries.
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Yes. I agree 100%. It is not a level playing field and Bath played like they thought so too.
On another note, I do wish someone would lamp Itoje. If ever a player needs a bit of old school 'attention', it is he. It would be worth a red card and a ban though I'd rather it was a player from another club than ours. I certainly wouldn't hold it against the offender :D
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Yes. I agree 100%. It is not a level playing field and Bath played like they thought so too.
On another note, I do wish someone would lamp Itoje. If ever a player needs a bit of old school 'attention', it is he. It would be worth a red card and a ban though I'd rather it was a player from another club than ours. I certainly wouldn't hold it against the offender :D
That made me laugh. I remember our huge prop (when I was at school, by the name of Mick Grice - last I heard of him he was an architect on the Battersea Power Station project). He jumped up at a line out, and when they all came down, the 'target' was flat out in the mud. Only the ref and a couple of lads on the line in those days. His fist may have connected with the guy on the way up.
I have to say, I may have crash tackled the occasional target as well in my time. hehe. Only got warned once by a ref, 'That was a bit unfriendly, try not to do that again old chap.'
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Sarries have reverted to no risk 'parasite rugby' as George Smith called it.
If Stalin was a Director of Rugby, that is how I would expect his team to play [!]
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I agree, it's a farce really that Salarycens can carry on with what is obviously a squad that is still comfortably over the salary cap.
I didn't watch the 2nd half as it looked extremely unlikely I would witness a Sarries defeat. Wray has cast a black cloud over Premiership Rugby which will be present for quite some time.
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If the rumoured mid season audit finds that players are getting underpaid due to lost investments or there’s more salary cap breaches then they should be automatically relegated.
It’s an absolute farce that that many internationals can be involved in the 23 with more in their whole squad when many other teams are up against the cap with only a handful of internationals and a much smaller squad.
Getting more and more angry over the whole situation. People thinking that sort of squad from yesterday is okay because they’ve already been punished for the season.
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If you think they are unbearable now, wait for the celebrations as they start to climb the table. Especially galling to those they pass on the way up.
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I found it hard to watch knowing how they cheated and not yet being convinced that they not still cheating. All their victories are hollow for me. I despise them, the whole Sarries set-up. Players included. Sorry, but that is how I feel.
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Beware. They are now being motivated by feeling that they have been punished harshly - well, they wouldn’t say that PRL was right to fine them, would they - & that can be a strong motivator.
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Absolutely agree, it would have made more sense they had been audited to the cap before being allowed to play, appears to me that they are carrying on as usual and stuff everyone else. >:(
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Christ...just popped over to Guardian comments - "built a great academy" balls being used by the usual EA fans.
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So, 17 games to go.
-18 now.
56 was enough for the SF last season.
74 points needed = 15 wins, 14 bonus points.
They could win the Premiership. 10/1 with the bookies.
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Id throw up in my own lap if that happened...it would enough for me to step away from the game for a year, I just couldn't take all the back slapping from media and journo's.
They will manage their Eng players return protocols just right and when 6 nations land, they have another team of internationals to rely on, plus they will play us, so thats given 5 points.
10-1 isn't bad odd's, maybe worth 20 quid.
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I agree that they will use the "hard done by" finding as a great motivator. It will see them finish top 6 and TV and media will be all over how great they are. All my Sarries friends have gone very quiet, knowing they've been cheated too but not able to distance themselves from the club. I feel sorry for them because I know how I'd feel if Wasps were found equally as guilty. Hopefully they'll be caught again mid season and be chucked out for good.
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10-1 isn't bad odd's, maybe worth 20 quid.
25/1 with Betfair
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10-1 isn't bad odd's, maybe worth 20 quid.
25/1 with Betfair
I'll have some of that...
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And what are the odds on them being relegated?
Asking for a friend...
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There's a warped sort of logic that says Sarries winning would be a good thing. It would be so blindingly obvious that if they can still win with giving every other team a 35 point head start then the league is a farce. Maybe that would force someone to ban them unless they break up the illegally assembled squad.
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And what are the odds on them being relegated?
Asking for a friend...
Betfair don't seem to offer that
Betway are offering 7/1
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And what are the odds on them being relegated?
Asking for a friend...
Tell them to give you the cash and you'll put it on for them! ;)
Ain't gonna happen!
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Tell them to give you the cash and you'll put it on for them! ;)
Ain't gonna happen!
I'm not so sure. I think a lot of people in the rugby world have underestimated the genuine anger a lot of people feel about this. Not just the way Saracens have treated the other clubs, but the way PRL have treated their own shareholders.
There is a genuine misconception that what Wray has done was simply naive and that his actions were for the good of rugby, if a little misguided.
I doubt we've heard the end of the saga just yet.
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Definitely not just you, I've lost much of my interest to watch the game. I went to Sandy Park last Saturday and, although had a great day with the lads, there was no shine to the "at the rugby" experience. ALso aside from our games, I've not watched any other GP games on telly this season for the first time in I can't remember how long.
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I have never wished ill on a player but that might change if they win it. The players are complicit, and if they don't suffer for whay amounts to years of cheating there will be a feeling that they have gotten away with it.
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I have never wished ill on a player but that might change if they win it. The players are complicit, and if they don't suffer for whay amounts to years of cheating there will be a feeling that they have gotten away with it.
That's it though, to me they have seemingly got away with it. The fans on the Sarries EA board all think they've been hard done by and I was still moaning on there up until last week, when I realised there is no point. They were all in denial beforehand, but now think that they've paid their dues.
Nothing less than removing Nigel Wray and dismantling that squad will satisfy me that justice has been done, and we all know that both are extremely unlikely to happen.
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Yes, I am gutted. Fingers crossed the books are opened.
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Yes, I am gutted. Fingers crossed the books are opened.
I actually don't think this will show anything. Wray has got it all sorted. He has had months to do so.
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Just dont attend games played against Sarries, and dont watch on TV.
That is the only currency we have against them.
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You can only say they are over the cap this season at the end of the season. I have no doubt that their numbers will be very carefully checked.
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Have they actually been caught breaking the salary cap itself?
I.e. have "Saracens" ever been caught paying more to their players than their allotted salary cap budget?
I don't believe they have.
We're led to believe that this time they've been done because of the co-investments - none of which will be through Saracens books
So I really don't see that a mid season audit will show anything
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Have they actually been caught breaking the salary cap itself?
I.e. have "Saracens" ever been caught paying more to their players than their allotted salary cap budget?
I don't believe they have.
We're led to believe that this time they've been done because of the co-investments - none of which will be through Saracens books
So I really don't see that a mid season audit will show anything
I really don't want to trawl through all the old threads, but I'm pretty sure that they had been caught "exceeding the cap" by 2 million over the 3 years and that the co-investments were just written off as an unintentional error of judgement???
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I found an article relating to the previous hushed up breaches from about 5 years ago.
It seems like one of the main points there was that Saracens (and presumably the other clubs involved) were signing a marquee player with a front loaded contract, then after 1 year giving that player a new contract as a squad player, then bringing in another marquee player with a front loaded contract.
The idea being you could sign an overseas player for £1.2m over 3 years.
Pay them £1m of that in the first year when they're a marquee so outside the cap.
Then give them a standard squad contract for £100k per year for 2 years
That's what brought the rule in that marquee contracts couldn't be front loaded.
As a one off, I'd almost be willing to accept it as clever accounting.
However, as Tony Rowe has said, Saracens were then told to toe the line, and they didn't.
Even if some quarters want it to die down, I bet Rowe won't let it lie
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And yet the "they've admitted their guilt and its time to move on" meme is all over comments elsewhere alongside loads of excuses
And yet - nothing has change - a starting XV with over 500 caps, without including Goode and Williams.
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I found an article relating to the previous hushed up breaches from about 5 years ago.
It seems like one of the main points there was that Saracens (and presumably the other clubs involved) were signing a marquee player with a front loaded contract, then after 1 year giving that player a new contract as a squad player, then bringing in another marquee player with a front loaded contract.
The idea being you could sign an overseas player for £1.2m over 3 years.
Pay them £1m of that in the first year when they're a marquee so outside the cap.
Then give them a standard squad contract for £100k per year for 2 years
That's what brought the rule in that marquee contracts couldn't be front loaded.
As a one off, I'd almost be willing to accept it as clever accounting.
However, as Tony Rowe has said, Saracens were then told to toe the line, and they didn't.
Even if some quarters want it to die down, I bet Rowe won't let it lie
I'd like to think that the other owners / chairmen whoever is in the seats of power will stand with Rowe. Every club has suffered one way or another and will continue to do so as long as that squad remains intact. Justice has to be seen to be done for the game to have any credibility whatsoever, a slap on the wrist simply does not equate to justice.
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You can only say they are over the cap this season at the end of the season. I have no doubt that their numbers will be very carefully checked.
Its humbling that all those internationals are prepared to play for below market wages!
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The thing is they are obviously going to carry on cheating. One way or another they will / are circumnavigating the cap and nothing will be found in the audits.
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The thing is they are obviously going to carry on cheating. One way or another they will / are circumnavigating the cap and nothing will be found in the audits.
This completely. Wray has said as much.
If one of your number does not agree with the rules, regulations and constraints they shoud be banished.
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Have they actually been caught breaking the salary cap itself?
I.e. have "Saracens" ever been caught paying more to their players than their allotted salary cap budget?
I don't believe they have.
We're led to believe that this time they've been done because of the co-investments - none of which will be through Saracens books
So I really don't see that a mid season audit will show anything
I really don't want to trawl through all the old threads, but I'm pretty sure that they had been caught "exceeding the cap" by 2 million over the 3 years and that the co-investments were just written off as an unintentional error of judgement???
This is one of the many facets of the ruling that is very annoying.. we don't actually know what they were pinged for.
The intial DM investigation targetted the various co-investments but some newspapers have then reported its pure and simple over-payments to players directly or 3rd parties. Payments can include a lot of things though.. 3rd parties could include wives/girlfriends or even the ltd companies.
I'm hoping one of the clubs will leak the report at some point.. PRLLeaks.com
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The problem is that PRL have not even released the report to the shareholders.
Each shareholding club is allowed to send a representative to PRL HQ where they can read the report under direct supervision. They are not allowed to take it away, make notes, or photograph any of it. As I understand it the report is well over 100 pages.
So in effect anything we hear is:
a) based on one person's memory - a person who is contracted not to reveal any of the contents.
Or
b) guesswork from a journalist who thinks they probably know what it likely says.
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Haven't parts of the report been redacted (though God knows why) as well?
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Haven't parts of the report been redacted (though God knows why) as well?
If it has been, then it will be names and places. If that's the case then fair enough.
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Haven't parts of the report been redacted (though God knows why) as well?
Yes - the info on BT was that an owner could make an appointment to visit PRL at Twickenham where they would be chaperoned to view and read the redacted report within a strict time slot. No copies or photos allowed - hence the chaperone. If I were the other owners I would be asking who PRL worked for