Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Westy68 on May 21, 2022, 08:22:37 AM
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Looking at our backs of last night, Bassett, Charlie, Dan, Jimmy, Fekitoa, Hougaard and Crossdale
Plus subs Paolo and porter, which one of those players would make the first team of any other premiership team. I can only think of Dan but he’s not exactly flying at the moment, maybe Bassett but he doesn’t score any trys (personally don’t think that is solely his fault)
Have I got it right, surely that can’t be right. If so that is a big problem. Getting in only one 12 is not going to be enough.
This is a problem that needs to be sorted. It doesn’t look like we can bring any from the premiership as I believe it would have been announced, maybe I’m wrong about that. Therefore do we have no choice and have to bring some players from abroad
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As a unit, it isn't (a unit).
How on earth can Josh (or Hougaard for that matter) score when he has a 13 inside him who drops the ball so much, and when he does get the ball, rarely ships it out?
Jimmy, aside from his kicking, is also probably not at that level now.
Dan and Charlie do not seem to work at all well together. Charlie actually played quite well last night, but was under pressure from the Sale scrum back 3 at every scrum and lineout.
No scrum half looks good when the pack in front of him is going backwards. Sale constantly pushed our scrum back, and counter rucked all the time.
Crossdale has the makings of a good, maybe exceptional, full back.
Right now, and more importantly, next season? Charlie and Ali can and probably will get better.
I don't see Jacob getting better though.
Last night our scrum was simply outperformed. Our props was the problem. Loosing Stooke was much bigger than you imagine. It lost us the disruption and counter rucking he brings, and lost us the stability in rucks where we had the ball, and lost us the forward momentum in mauls where we had the ball. We will be without him for a long while, and we have lost Fifita. Gaskell is a different type of lock.
No team will win games without the pack functioning, regardless of who the backs are.
So, no, I don't see the problem as the backs. The problem, which may be resolved with new blood next year, is the front 5.
We don't have to worry about Jimmy and Malakai, they are leaving. I do worry about Mills taking up a slot that a fit player could fill. He is a good player who doesn't play. He was the same at Worcester, and I expressed that concern when the rumours started that he was coming.
The fact is, English Rubgy is not producing the quality in the backs that would support 13 Premiership teams, and the salary cap means we can no longer afford to import quality from the Southern hemisphere.
Much as we may not like it, all teams will suffer with back lines that deteriorate as the years roll by without sufficient quality of youth coming in.
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So next week do you play the likes of Spink, Mehson, Cardall, Mills etc to give them a game or save them the risk of a serious injury ruling them out until Christmas or something and just let the leavers play?
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I am not sure it is the lack of skill or ability with any of our backs as individuals. Just watching us in set piece moves, for example, it seems we don't have any tricks, plans or imagination such as you see with other teams. Our backs seem to play as individual, a criticism I have made before about our forwards. How much more effective would we be if our backs moved the ball more effectively - at they moment they are just predictable and take the ball into contact too often. I also think that our forwards have a woeful offloading game for the most part. Both these things destroy the quick ball and turnovers we are capable of.
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. Charlie actually played quite well last night,
I agree, but judging by some of the other comments I’d seen I was wondering if I’d been watching a different game or we had someone else called Charlie.
As he’s not distinctive and doesn’t do much that we might call flash he doesn’t get noticed much, but I saw him putting in some good tackles and running hard at the gain line before giving flat passes.
I think he’s a bit naive at times and can be easy to defend against, especially when we’re always on the back foot, but he’s still only 20 and will develop better game management. He did get a few praises by the commentators.
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I posted this in post match thoughts, but it is better suited to this thread:
After sleeping on it I am still disappointed. The backs are now clearly an issue, and I think one key moment is when we had multiple phases on Sales try line in the final 10 minutes, where the forwards kept pounding away and the backs were left standing there. Eventually when it did go wider Porter passed high and behind Fekitoa and the knock on came. This tells me 2 things. 1: The forwards are not confident in the backs to do the job. 2: The backs are not playing well enough to do the job.
Looking at our backs performance it is so bad it terms of communication, ability, style and play that this falls squarely onto the coaches. When backs are playing this badly coaching failures are usually to blame. It is clear there is no strategy, no one really knows what lines they are running, what plays/moves they are doing or what to do if it goes multi phase as we cannot even get the first move done smoothly. We have a skills coach in Ed Robinson, but we have no dedicated backs coach and it really really shows! Perhaps the biggest signing we need is a specialist backs coach, and Ed really needs to up his game because the catching, passing, handling, movement and ability to execute under pressure are all substandard, and that lands directly on his doorstep! The coaches really need to work out how they want the whole team to play because what they are doing so far is not working.
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Agree with lots of comments especially the one that says backs will struggle without front foot or at least stable ball from the forwards BUT last night when we did get good ball how many passes were either head height, behind or unsympathetic to the receiver. very basic skills lacking which tells me low confidence. These guys are good, very good but clearly are not confident on either themselves, the systems they are playing or their colleagues....either way it needs sorting, by the coaches and themselves. Its a double edged sword
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Last night was an example of when we don't have a strong forward pack and it affects our whole game.
But even when we had a strong forward pack, our backs have struggled. Even in the games we won our backs didn't look great.
The thing is this is also roughly the same squad that was scoring belters in Dai's last season and pre-lockdown.
I absolutely blame the coaching staff and in particular the attack coaches. Mitchell is a good coach, but never an attack coach. Same goes to Everard. We need a better skills and attack coach for next season, because otherwise it'll just be more of the same.
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Struggling to remember when our 2017 vintage got the better of opposing packs s teams with muscular packs like Saints and Sale, whilst we scored from anywhere vs everyone. We regularly got out muscled in the set piece, or a least had a mediocre line out, but one sniff of turnover we were under the posts. First phase we were lethal. There were line breaks galore. Contrast with last night's debacle.
Yes last night the forwards did not win the arm wrestle, but stick Cipriani, Beale, Wade, WLR, Daly et al on and we would have had multiple tries. Obviously we cannot stack a team like that any more, but those last fifteen minutes of huff and puff should gave seen at least two scores by simply drawing them in- as we repeatedly did, and then putting it through the hands- as we repeatedly did not. I think Charkie played OK at times, but how he was playing was irrelevant in those last twenty when our team was nos 1-9, with Bassett et al forced to join mauls in a desperate attempt to see what the ball looked like.
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Paolo was screaming for the ball but very rarely saw it. Well no - he saw it. But no-one threw it to him.
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The answer is they are all capable of getting in other prem teams. But as a unit they’ve been poor. A few things stand out for me. Our speed of ball is pedestrian - teams just line us up. Distribution from 12 and 13 is even worse. We don’t use a lot of variation if Umaga is not on the pitch. And we’ve messed about at 15 all season which is such a pivotal attacking role. The lack of confidence sees us throwing shoulder high passes time after time. Certainly needs a freshen up. Gopperth, Watson, Fekitoa, Miller and Anderson are all off. I think we need to see some academy talent getting games on the wing next year, sign a good 15 and focus on more speed of ball through 9,10,12.
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I said after Lyon I hoped Wasps' coaches would have ALL players doing intensive opposed passing practice last week. Doesn't look like they did.
Our inability to pass accurately and quickly to create momentum in the backs is terrible. At one point against Sale we lost 20 metres due to dreadful passing.
That is why we cannot create attacking space or finishing off moves. That is exacerbated by the forwards not having great ruck speed and incessantly trying to batter down the door from 5m out using 1 out runners.
I'm not sure what Ed Robinson does as skills coach because I can't see a great degree of skill on the pitch.
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Just watch Quins v Gloucester, hell our 10,12,13 and 15 are not at all close to Quins, also I have to say our coaching set up.
At half time quins work out the problem and sort it out
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Just watch Quins v Gloucester, hell our 10,12,13 and 15 are not at all close to Quins, also I have to say our coaching set up.
At half time quins work out the problem and sort it out
Nowhere near Glaws backs either - having had a more than decent season and coached by Wasps old boys....
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It takes two to tango. It is significant that both sides wanted to play positive, attacking rugby this afternoon. Sale must be the most negative side in the Prem. But you know what you get from them. We still let them tie us up in an arm wrestle which we were never going to win.
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It takes two to tango. It is significant that both sides wanted to play positive, attacking rugby this afternoon. Sale must be the most negative side in the Prem. But you know what you get from them. We still let them tie us up in an arm wrestle which we were never going to win.
Given how we played when we were slick in backs - not that long ago, even with our pack being second best, we would still have beaten Sale last night.
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I've said it before, but this is the kind of adversity that Lee and co need to show they can fix it.
It's sometimes very difficult to fix things mid season
Lee now has a full summer, pre-season and new signings to fix whatever issues he's identified and build a new approach.
We may or may not be looking for a new full back, but I think it's largely irrelevant.
Our back 3 options are pretty average, but it the half backs and centres are winning their battles a new full back alone isn't going to fix anything.
We're going into next season with Dan Robson still being first choice. Hopefully a few quiet months and a nice holiday will see him come back refreshed next season.
Charlie will have learnt a lot from this season and can use the Summer to fully absorb it.
Likewise Jacob should have developed by playing full back and fly half and will hopefully be able to kick on next season too.
Worryingly, it sounds like Odendaal won't have a pre season or any downtime and will join us after the start of the season.
That likely sees us relying on Mills being fit at the start. If nothing else, for him personally, I hope that's the case.
Unless we come up trumps with a big signing at outside centre, it would seem like it's Spinks shirt for next year. Good luck to him.
The back 3 likely sees Josh as the first name on the sheet, but if for no other reason than we have no outstanding alternatives, Mehson should get a lot of game time.
Him and Odogwu fighting for the 14 shirt will hopefully improve them both.
Anyone's guess what happens at full back, but as said at the start, it's probably irrelevant if the rest of the backs aren't greatly improved upon this season
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I think Spink starts at 13, maybe Odogwu. We definitely need a new body at 13 as we only have those 2. 12 looks done with Odendaal, Hartley and Mills.
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If Odendaal is going to be the kind of inside centre who will run straight and make breaks / half breaks, then I would really love us to have a full back capable of running supporting lines and knowing when to do so.
When we were attacking well, we often used to overload an opposition defence by making a break and/or have 3 runners hit a channel.
If we can get a full back to support the attack and be an extra man when line breaks are made we'd be well on our way to solving some of our problems
(Obviously breaking the gain line isn't always that easy)
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Just watch Quins v Gloucester, hell our 10,12,13 and 15 are not at all close to Quins, also I have to say our coaching set up.
At half time quins work out the problem and sort it out
Nowhere near Glaws backs either - having had a more than decent season and coached by Wasps old boys....
Nor Sarries and Saints! Their backs both looked good today.
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Looking at our backs last night one word sprang to mind in terms of what we were missing - dangerous pace. I think at least one winger has to be a complete speedster - we only have one - Odogwu. Neither Jimmy or Fekitoa trouble anyone with speed and Dan and Charlie are nippy but not greased lightning. Crossdale has a turn of foot but not enough to go outside many. Even if you don’t use it all the time it forces the opposition to consider the danger.
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I'd like to rely on academy backs, but in addition to experience they need the best teachers and I just don't think we have.
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To help the backs we also need Dan fully firing as a threat at 9, that interests forwards around the fringes meaning they can't just spread and drift out to defend the backs. Likes of De Klerk, Care, Mitchell, Gibson-Park, Dupont, Quirke, Randall etc all are constant threats themselves meaning others have more time and space.
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We need faster ruck speed, quick and accurate delivery from the base and backs passing in front of team mates running good lines at pace who can take the ball without breaking stride.
At the moment we are incapable of all of that, which is why we have no attacking threat. It's up to the coaches to create training scenarios where that is done at speed and under pressure and practiced until it becomes second nature.
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We need faster ruck speed, quick and accurate delivery from the base and backs passing in front of team mates running good lines at pace who can take the ball without breaking stride.
At the moment we are incapable of all of that, which is why we have no attacking threat. It's up to the coaches to create training scenarios where that is done at speed and under pressure and practiced until it becomes second nature.
100% spot on. We used to have it - why are we not doing it now?????
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What surprises me most is that Lee was a back.
He was also a backs / attack coach when he joined us.
And while some of us believe that our best attack was with cipriani at 10, it was still pretty lively before Danny joined.... And that would have been with Lee running the show.
So why the issue now?
Is he completely hands off with the coaching and letting Everard / Mitchell run it completely?
Has he changed his approach and feels that full focus needs to go to the forwards and get that working properly before worrying about the backs?
Whatever it may be, he's now got over 3 months for everyone to rest up and focus on something new next season
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I think lee sometimes plays players out of loyalty rather then being the best player at the time.
Who on this site would play Fekitoa over Spink against tigers, not sure anyone would but the chances are lee is likely too.
Just don’t understand that apart from a loyalty thing.
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After having just watched the Quins and Saints games it has reiterated to me that I don’t think our issues in the backs are massively personnel based but more like our systems and currently our 10s (how they’re used and their authority rather aiming at any direct criticism at them)
I think if you put our backs from Friday outside Smith or Biggar with their systems in place and we fire, Bassett is back up to 10+ tries a season, Crossdale wiuld play like Freeman or Huw Jones. Lots of work to do this preseason.
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After having just watched the Quins and Saints games it has reiterated to me that I don’t think our issues in the backs are massively personnel based but more like our systems and currently our 10s (how they’re used and their authority rather aiming at any direct criticism at them)
I think if you put our backs from Friday outside Smith or Biggar with their systems in place and we fire, Bassett is back up to 10+ tries a season, Crossdale wiuld play like Freeman or Huw Jones. Lots of work to do this preseason.
+1
Anecdotally, I've been envious of Quins attack since they sacked Gustard, sweet Jesus they play attractive rugby. All the more frustrating they won the prem with their own identity as well...
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They also had the best front row and number 8 as well.
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They also had the best front row and number 8 as well.
and a pretty handy hard running centre!
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I think lee sometimes plays players out of loyalty rather then being the best player at the time.
Who on this site would play Fekitoa over Spink against tigers, not sure anyone would but the chances are lee is likely too.
Just don’t understand that apart from a loyalty thing.
I call it sentimentality. So and so is having his last game at home etc etc.
It is usually counterproductive, just as it is in other areas of society.
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That is the right Phrase
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I'd like to see Paolo given a run at 13 again - weren't it the form in that position that got him into the England squad?
I know he still has a lot to learn in that position and some will say his distribution and defence are not up to it but he is an explosive runner who can break the gain line - something we have very little of in the back line currently. Hopefully Burger or (a fit Mills :-\) can get him in the right positions next year to do that.
Also it's not like we have been served up brilliant displays of distribution from Fekitoa this year so we're coming from a low base ;)
Spink and Paolo rotating at 13 aren't the worse options for me next year.
A bigger headache is at 14 if Paolo does play inside, Zach's form has dropped off and Hougaard is an emergency winger. I would have loved to see Mehson given a run but he's not have a sniff since his Prem cup display.
Hopefully we are in the market for a winger, excluding the obvious NFL convert I'm not sure who is an option though??
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While I acknowledge that some of the responsibility for the poor back play has to sit with the coaching team, what we're seeing more often than not is basic poor handling. Passes behind the man, passes at head/ankle height, poor timing from the runner/passer, failing to catch the ball etc.
I coach under 9s these basic skills on a Sunday morning. Simple drills to build an understanding among relative novices with the concentration level you might expect from a 9 year old. At a very basic level, the kids can make it work most of the time, and they will only get better and faster as they get older. Now I've never had to opportunity to see how elite, professional rugby players train, but surely the coaches aren't still drumming these basics into them, running the same drills they were doing back when they were under 9s, are they? This should be a given, and the coaching team can't be held accountable for basic, individual errors. Whatever the coaches are doing with them through the week, mis-directing or mis-timing passes and failing to catch the ball are not among them. Maybe there's a lack of clarity/understanding in the messages from the coaches that is muddling thinking and leading to basic errors, but ultimately poor execution is down to the individual.
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Hougaard has shown a brilliant reading of the game defensively and has an ability to more often than not, cut off a potentially dangerous position at the source with a thumping man and ball tackle. He hits surprisingly hard for a scrum-half.
I don't think we've see anything of him with the ball when put into space - But that's the ongoing issue we're all talking about.
Thought Crossdale, for all the limited game time, looked far more of a natural, long-term full-back than Jacob has. I'd still rather see Jacob playing 10 as he undoubtedly has the talent for unpicking defences and more so than Charlie has shown.
Charlie is much more of your 'traditional 10'.
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Jacob at 10 with the right 12 outside him, is the call that I would make. We should use Jacob where he poses most threat and his weaknesses are least exposed.
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Jacob at 10 with the right 12 outside him, is the call that I would make. We should use Jacob where he poses most threat and his weaknesses are least exposed.
I’m inclined to agree with you here. With the safety of a big and experienced 12 outside him Umaga can just ship it on if he’s in trouble or if the space isn’t there. He is then in position to pick the space off the next few phases rather than being at the bottom of a ruck
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https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/will-simonds-signs-short-term-manly-deal/
Will Simons off to NSW to play for Manly over the summer.
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Nice gig if you can get it!
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This could be an excellent move for Will, more depth of experience and game time.
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While I acknowledge that some of the responsibility for the poor back play has to sit with the coaching team, what we're seeing more often than not is basic poor handling. Passes behind the man, passes at head/ankle height, poor timing from the runner/passer, failing to catch the ball etc.
I coach under 9s these basic skills on a Sunday morning. Simple drills to build an understanding among relative novices with the concentration level you might expect from a 9 year old. At a very basic level, the kids can make it work most of the time, and they will only get better and faster as they get older. Now I've never had to opportunity to see how elite, professional rugby players train, but surely the coaches aren't still drumming these basics into them, running the same drills they were doing back when they were under 9s, are they? This should be a given, and the coaching team can't be held accountable for basic, individual errors. Whatever the coaches are doing with them through the week, mis-directing or mis-timing passes and failing to catch the ball are not among them. Maybe there's a lack of clarity/understanding in the messages from the coaches that is muddling thinking and leading to basic errors, but ultimately poor execution is down to the individual.
This may actually be the problem. You wouldn't expect to have to coach basics and maybe not enough attention is given to it. The best teams always do the basics better than others (e.g. Quins backs). This cannot be left to chance. What is required is to practice scenarios and moves so they can be executed at great pace and under severe pressure as smoothly as possible. I don't believe there would be the number of misdirected passes or handling errors if training was conducted like that.
The coaches also need to be educating players on game and situation understanding so they are more aware of what is possible when moves break down or the opposition are vulnerable so they can play a bit more off the cuff.
I know we are talking about elite players who are extremely fit and well conditioned and can do certain things very well. However, there are very few with innate understanding. Cips and George Ford have it, as did Rob Howley. Austin Healey mentioned how Ford's ability to coach on the pitch would improve Sale next season.
Thing is you either have it or, mostly, you don't but you can learn awareness and understanding through experience and education.
I have direct experience of this with my son, who I coached through all age groups, and was amazed how instinctively he played from having understood what he saw when watching Wasps.
We were at HW when Wasps played Celtic Warriors. Howley arrived late at a ruck after the ball emerged, kicked the ball round it to outflank the opposition forwards and was tackled off the ball resulting in a penalty try. The following day my 10 year old son was 5m from touch and try line with lots of players in the way. So he stabbed the ball through a small gap, ran round the outside and scored. A perfect example of using a learned experience and applying it in an appropriate situation. I didn't coach that but I know where he got it from.
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I have direct experience of this with my son, who I coached through all age groups, and was amazed how instinctively he played from having understood what he saw when watching Wasps.
We were at HW when Wasps played Celtic Warriors. Howley arrived late at a ruck after the ball emerged, kicked the ball round it to outflank the opposition forwards and was tackled off the ball resulting in a penalty try. The following day my 10 year old son was 5m from touch and try line with lots of players in the way. So he stabbed the ball through a small gap, ran round the outside and scored. A perfect example of using a learned experience and applying it in an appropriate situation. I didn't coach that but I know where he got it from.
Not much hope for my 9 year old then, watching the current crop misfiring!
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I have direct experience of this with my son, who I coached through all age groups, and was amazed how instinctively he played from having understood what he saw when watching Wasps.
We were at HW when Wasps played Celtic Warriors. Howley arrived late at a ruck after the ball emerged, kicked the ball round it to outflank the opposition forwards and was tackled off the ball resulting in a penalty try. The following day my 10 year old son was 5m from touch and try line with lots of players in the way. So he stabbed the ball through a small gap, ran round the outside and scored. A perfect example of using a learned experience and applying it in an appropriate situation. I didn't coach that but I know where he got it from.
Not much hope for my 9 year old then, watching the current crop misfiring!
🤣🤣🤣
Just get him to watch good rugby wherever it's played regardless. Maybe get him to point out what Wasps do wrong too.
My lad definitely had innate ability you cannot coach but he also watched a lot of rugby and learned from the good and the bad, which was the point I'm making.
He actually played quite a few school games against Ford and Farrell and wasn't outclassed. His goal kicking was on a par with Farrell when they were 14. However, he was considered too small by the county coaches, which pissed him off so much he stopped playing for years. Fortunately I got him back eventually. He may be small but he's the current man of steel for his side on account of his ferocious tackling and he still does instinctive things that amaze me.