Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Wombles on September 17, 2022, 05:00:38 PM
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Elliot Stooke in commentary today called it best.....'I am speechless'.
A comedy of errors
So much good and so much bad.
Where and how in the world do you start to dissect that. There was some really lovely stuff today, we were getting over the gain line, Tom Willis was absolutely immense. Barbeary worked hard, Cruise was solid, MacDonald and Launchers look great in the second row. Crossdale was an absolute threat with ball in hand.
But 18 handling errors! 18!!!.....I will say it once more.......
18!!!
It would be laughable, but this has cost us massively, 0 points.
Rugby is based upon small margins, but sometimes a litany of small margins cause big consequences.
Fair play to Bristol, under the pump. But did their homework and hit us hard. 2 first phase tries going through the 12-15 channels exposed the lack of unity and understanding in the back line. The backs look better, but they have a long long way to travel if we are hoping to get into the Champions cup next year. Big question marks also exist over our wide defence, it is porous and needs fixing.
Flats puts it best at the end of the game. "Wasps were miles off in terms of accuracy, concentration and execution".
2 games, 1 point. And to be fair none of us can say we deserve anything more.
If these 2 rounds do not serve as a rocket to our lads then nothing will.
Chris
Once a Wasp ALWAYS a Wasp!
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Bristol were no more than average. Though their defence close to their line was immense. However we kept playing into their hands by trying to batter our way over the line. Suck them in and then after 3 or 4 phases, stretch them by going wide.
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Which was achieved a number of times, only for the ball to be dropped.
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Performances like that are not going to entice fans to come back.
Cannot fault the endeavour but skill level in handling is woeful.
We had the possession to win the game which is the frustrating thing.
What does Lee do now?
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Can someone tell me what a trick cyclist can do to stop us dropping the ball so often????
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This leaves big questions to be answered about a coaching set up that has overseen no general improvement in performances over the last three seasons and a side that is going backwards. The handling errors and lack of phases and sustained pressure isn't becoming of professional players and a premiership side, and if performances like today are going to be the norm, then the bottom two will be us and Worcester (if their fortunes don't change).
We've let too much quality and experience go over the last couple of seasons which is beginning to show - it could be entirely budgetary or partly Lee's decisions, but the scary thought for me is that exciting talent like the Willis brothers, Alfie, even Atkinson, may start thinking they need to go elsewhere to realise their full potential in a quality set up with quality coaches. The same could be said for more experienced players such as Brad, Launchers and Robbo.
Regardless of player availability, a Prem side shouldn't be so devoid of fundamental skills and nous like we were today. The difference was Bristol got all the important bits right and we got them all wrong and there are no excuses.
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If we were a football team, I think we would be starting to say that Lee has lost the dressing room.
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Andy, if we can cut out the handling errors and not drop the ball so often, then phases and sustained pressure will happen.
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Andy, if we can cut out the handling errors and not drop the ball so often, then phases and sustained pressure will happen.
The problem is we’ve been doing for 2 years now, so it is a rather large If. All poor teams are about If’s
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Andy, if we can cut out the handling errors and not drop the ball so often, then phases and sustained pressure will happen.
The problem is we’ve been doing for 2 years now, so it is a rather large If. All poor teams are about If’s
+1. Think it's now time for a change. We can't keep making excuses.
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Andy, if we can cut out the handling errors and not drop the ball so often, then phases and sustained pressure will happen.
The problem is we’ve been doing for 2 years now, so it is a rather large If. All poor teams are about If’s
+1. Think it's now time for a change. We can't keep making excuses.
I know it's bad to watch. 2 games in to the season. What would you do? Let's have some constructive criticism.
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OK. Constructive criticism. 1) Start your best SH. 2) Coach clever kicks, occasional dinks, rather than unimaginative punts straight to the opposition. 3) Play your best 8 at 8. 4) Coach catching the ball. 5) Please get a winger on the pitch who is a threat 6) Don’t pick on reputation alone 7) Please coach the miracle offload out of all players and 8) Pratice catching the ball some more.
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I know it's bad to watch. 2 games in to the season. What would you do? Let's have some constructive criticism.
I think we've been good at developing individuals, but team cohesion is just... Off. I think the attack is poor and very inconsistent, our confidence is gone as well.
I really don't know how to improve this team, but just don't think Lee's the guy to do it. I really wanted him to succeed, but after 2 poor seasons and now this season start, he's giving me the impression he doesn't know what he's doing.
I think in particular after last week, you'd expect a reaction. There wasn't one. There's no sense of urgency. We won't get top 8 and never getting anywhere near top 4.
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Just got home from that. The drive was exceedingly quiet as we all silently fizzed.
A beautiful day when they could have put right some of last week's second half failings. However against a not very good Bristol team that was a dire dire performance. The sad thing is you could see most were trying but failing stupidly time after time.
What needs to happen now. Changing coaches after the season has started has little chance of happening (plus nobody would touch us until the finances are fixed). During pre-season we saw passing practice being rammed into the players but there are too many fumbles by most of them. God knows what happens from hereon. Improvement please and no Alfie at 8. Tom was immense when he dropped back to his natural position.
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We could do worse than play TW at 8, JW at 6 and Nemo at 8. Alfie later as an impact player.
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Alfie is a terrific player. But…..Shields is a shoe in at 6. T Willis has to play 8. Willis J has to play and Carr must be in each 23. Time to re-visit the hooker debate?
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Passing practice is all very well. But there is no pressure on the training ground. Giving a pass. taking a pass and holding onto the ball go to pieces in our game. Are we holding the ball too lightly, always seeking an offload? Do our passes have just a little bit too much zip on them? Do they go to the right player? Somethings fundamentally wrong and I don't know what it is. My playing experience is 50 years ago and it's a different game now. I played front row (hooker and TH) and scored 1 try in 4 years. Actually 2, when I dribbled the ball over the line and fell on it but it got disallowed. Still rankles >:(
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Jack is a 7, don’t mind Tom at 6 but he is much better at 8, so really has to play there. Not sure who we can play at 6 with Brad injured apart from Tom, so a problem.
Alfie maybe needs to switch back to hooker, not sure what to do about him. He is a very good player but it’s just not working for him
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As an aside, the pitch looked good and I thought it held up well.
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As an aside, the pitch looked good and I thought it held up well.
Yes looked very good. Almost as good as the Edinburgh pitch I am currently watching. Hey a team that can catch and hold the ball!
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Like watching the Keystone Cops today. Felt like shouting ‘Calm down, calm down’ throughout the game. It all looked so frantic.
Passing was crazy …. Or was it the catching? It’s almost like the guys wanted to see who could fling out the most reckless pass just to see if they could make their team mate drop it.
Sorry to say that on that performance Alfie is our 4th choice No 8 (behind Tom, Nizaam and Brad). IMHO he’s a hooker.
On a more positive note, I was impressed by all the new guys Odendaal, Ryan and McDonald.
Does anybody know how many passes we made in that game v the average in the Premiership?
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I have said it before - teams have worked out Alfie especially at No 8. They know he is a blitzing selfish player. Rarely passes so if you stop him on a solo run you can usually get the ball back.
Exciting is great if it gets you somewhere.
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Sorry to say that on that performance Alfie is our 4th choice No 8 (behind Tom, Nizaam and Brad). IMHO he’s a hooker.
What makes him more of a hooker than an 8?
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Does anybody know how many passes we made in that game v the average in the Premiership?
We made 201 passes.
Average this week was 128 passes.
We also made 164 carries and ran 687 metres. Second half we had 83% territory and 63% possession. Sadly, all pointless as we couldn't catch the ball.
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Andy, if we can cut out the handling errors and not drop the ball so often, then phases and sustained pressure will happen.
+1
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Andy, if we can cut out the handling errors and not drop the ball so often, then phases and sustained pressure will happen.
+1
Isn't that just saying that if we played better we'd do better?
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Does anybody know how many passes we made in that game v the average in the Premiership?
We made 201 passes.
Average this week was 128 passes.
We also made 164 carries and ran 687 metres. Second half we had 83% territory and 63% possession. Sadly, all pointless as we couldn't catch the ball.
Thanks Jac. Some useful stats to provide a bit of balance.
I watched the whole game on a big TV with no distractions.
I’m also not someone who gets overlying emotional about rugby these days.
Sometimes I switch off the sound to to study movement without the bias of the commentary or the crowd.
If one or two of those passes went to hand in the first half/early second half we could have been out of sight.
These are not bad players.
These are not players reneging on effort or application.
Every single one of them is someone’s son, doing the best job they can in the circumstances.
I sometimes wonder about the sanctimonious claptrap this board offers up, whilst trying to differentiate itself from the Drunken Wasps site.
Be kind to each other, but it’s okay to be venomous to the players and coaching staff?
I can understand massive frustration midway through a season, but the histrionics two games in…reflect more on the posters than it does on the squad.
For my tuppence, the players are simply trying too hard.
If I was Head Coach, I would be drilling into them “the long game”.
Patience, Possession, and Field Territory.
Look after the ball like it was a lump of gold.
As the season progresses, get more expansive…but for the first 5 games…never let that ball leave your hands unless it’s 95% guaranteed it’s going to another Wasp player.
At the moment, it seems the guys, especially our forwards, are too short-termism.
Compounding one mistake on top of another. Desperately trying to claw back momentum.
Silly individual errors by trying too hard.
It’s a simple fix…and their undoubted effort just needs reframing.
But yes, it’s a coaching issue that needs resolving.
But for people who never even watched the match to be highly critical and call for significant changes, I find that a little embarrassing.
We really weren’t that far off a great performance today.
A drop and a spill…and then we compounded mistake after mistake, trying to make up for it.
Play the long game. Have patience and self belief as a full squad of players.
Believe in one another to know you’ll get back in the game.
And of course, shore up the scrum.
Without that platform, everything else becomes that much harder.
Allez.
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Andy, if we can cut out the handling errors and not drop the ball so often, then phases and sustained pressure will happen.
+1
Isn't that just saying that if we played better we'd do better?
I’ve put on the other post match thread, in my experience bad sides are all about ‘could have, should have, ifs and buts (and a healthy dose of ‘next game it will be better…’)’. It’s what you do that counts whilst what you could have done counts for little, as the table proves. Good sides find a way to win and bad sides find a way to lose. We get the important stuff wrong in our approach play and defence at the critical times which is very much definitive of a top GP side versus a side battling at the bottom.
It says a lot about us when Bristol feel they can come to the CBS and rest players but still come away with something. The fact they could do this and we didn’t even get a LBP is abysmal. Watching Quins v Sarries is like watching a different league - intensity, physicality, speed, organisation. They are on a different level.
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Hopwood,
You're probably right.
Keep hold of the ball, protect it at all costs and we'll probably do well
However based on a number of recent seasons, that doesn't appear to be the philosophy of Wasps when attacking.
Even when Lee was attack/backs coach under Dai, we seemed to prioritise keeping the ball the alive over everything else.
At times that balance did change, but we've been back at trying to keep the game open and fast for quite a while now.
At times, that has been a strength of ours but currently it's not, yet it seems that it's still part of the philosophy.
The catch 22 is that most of us want Wasps to play open, fast, attacking rugby, but when yesterday happens we want us to tighten up.
It may be a balance thing, but Lee needs to find that balance fast
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Does anybody know how many passes we made in that game v the average in the Premiership?
We made 201 passes.
Average this week was 128 passes.
We also made 164 carries and ran 687 metres. Second half we had 83% territory and 63% possession. Sadly, all pointless as we couldn't catch the ball.
Thanks Jac. Some useful stats to provide a bit of balance.
I watched the whole game on a big TV with no distractions.
I’m also not someone who gets overlying emotional about rugby these days.
Sometimes I switch off the sound to to study movement without the bias of the commentary or the crowd.
If one or two of those passes went to hand in the first half/early second half we could have been out of sight.
These are not bad players.
These are not players reneging on effort or application.
Every single one of them is someone’s son, doing the best job they can in the circumstances.
I sometimes wonder about the sanctimonious claptrap this board offers up, whilst trying to differentiate itself from the Drunken Wasps site.
Be kind to each other, but it’s okay to be venomous to the players and coaching staff?
I can understand massive frustration midway through a season, but the histrionics two games in…reflect more on the posters than it does on the squad.
For my tuppence, the players are simply trying too hard.
If I was Head Coach, I would be drilling into them “the long game”.
Patience, Possession, and Field Territory.
Look after the ball like it was a lump of gold.
As the season progresses, get more expansive…but for the first 5 games…never let that ball leave your hands unless it’s 95% guaranteed it’s going to another Wasp player.
At the moment, it seems the guys, especially our forwards, are too short-termism.
Compounding one mistake on top of another. Desperately trying to claw back momentum.
Silly individual errors by trying too hard.
It’s a simple fix…and their undoubted effort just needs reframing.
But yes, it’s a coaching issue that needs resolving.
But for people who never even watched the match to be highly critical and call for significant changes, I find that a little embarrassing.
We really weren’t that far off a great performance today.
A drop and a spill…and then we compounded mistake after mistake, trying to make up for it.
Play the long game. Have patience and self belief as a full squad of players.
Believe in one another to know you’ll get back in the game.
And of course, shore up the scrum.
Without that platform, everything else becomes that much harder.
Allez.
Problem is it’s not two games in. It’s two years in with the same outcomes. You may call it sanctimonious claptrap. I just think saying we were really very poor is an accurate calling of the game (which I was at). We are a professional sports team - we really can’t carry on saying if that pass had been caught etc etc we’d have been out of sight. The fact is we need to start catching those passes and winning games.
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Spot on shugs it’s not the last 2 games it’s the last 2 years, which is why I don’t understand the ‘patience’ comment.
We were really bad yesterday, you can’t say any difference
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It's been 2 years, and on top of last week I expected a reaction. These results are unacceptable for me. It's just not on.
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Spot on shugs it’s not the last 2 games it’s the last 2 years, which is why I don’t understand the ‘patience’ comment.
We were really bad yesterday, you can’t say any difference
I know I get flak for saying, if we do the basics properly, then the rest will follow. However, Alfie's first 2 carries yesterday resulted in tackles which made him drop the ball forward. Later, he got stripped by Randall. None of that should happen. Alfie is surely big and strong enough to keep the ball with one arm and pick up Randall with his other hand and toss him aside. What is he doing wrong and is it simply to do with the coaching or is it something more fundamental, as I am beginning to suspect. Now I have no respect for Jones whatsoever but he has still not yet capped him even off the bench. Is it just possible that EJ has noticed something that everyone else has missed?
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They used Alfies desire to win big contacts against him yesterday, they absorbed the contact, kept him up and stripped him as he focused on driving on for a couple more yards.
The best forwards first receiver I saw was George Smith, always seemed to beat the first defender through speed of thought and movement despite not being the biggest.
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Alfie's first 2 carries yesterday resulted in tackles which made him drop the ball forward. Later, he got stripped by Randall. None of that should happen. Alfie is surely big and strong enough to keep the ball with one arm and pick up Randall with his other hand and toss him aside. What is he doing wrong and is it simply to do with the coaching or is it something more fundamental, as I am beginning to suspect. Now I have no respect for Jones whatsoever but he has still not yet capped him even off the bench. Is it just possible that EJ has noticed something that everyone else has missed?
Even more inexcusable is Alfie not putting Porter in from a 2 on 1 early on. He needs to be aware of what's on instead of driving forward for as long as possible. Only positive from that butchered chance was we kept the ball and the move eventually lead to a try by Cruse.
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Reference to George Smith makes me think Nemo. Even in a cameo yesterday he picked 2-3 lines we just hadn’t been running. I don’t want to turn anything into a bash Barbeary fest - he’s a fantastic, exciting player. I just think we need to use him more subtly.
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Spot on shugs it’s not the last 2 games it’s the last 2 years, which is why I don’t understand the ‘patience’ comment.
We were really bad yesterday, you can’t say any difference
I know I get flak for saying, if we do the basics properly, then the rest will follow. However, Alfie's first 2 carries yesterday resulted in tackles which made him drop the ball forward. Later, he got stripped by Randall. None of that should happen. Alfie is surely big and strong enough to keep the ball with one arm and pick up Randall with his other hand and toss him aside. What is he doing wrong and is it simply to do with the coaching or is it something more fundamental, as I am beginning to suspect. Now I have no respect for Jones whatsoever but he has still not yet capped him even off the bench. Is it just possible that EJ has noticed something that everyone else has missed?
I’ve been wondering about that for a while and have a few thoughts.
Alfie was an early developer and has come through the age groups being the biggest player on the park, usually by a long way. He may have played in older teams but I suspect usually within his abilities.
As such he’s been able to use sheer power to burst through defences and never needed to worry about developing a side step or his passing skills, let alone hanging on to the ball. I’m sure coaches worked on it but we wasn’t under pressure to use them in games.
Also oppositions won’t have seen him or even if they did they probably didn’t have the time to coach their own defences.
Now he’s been in the Premiership he’s facing far better coached defences as well as players more his size and he doesn’t quite have the instincts to keep tight hold of the ball, sidestep or pass when under severe pressure or when outside opportunities occur.
Tom, on the other hand, had to develop those skills and instincts as he progressed which is why he doesn’t drop the ball while fending off one player and being tackled by another.
Could Alfie become a world class 8? I don’t know, but do we want him learning on the job when we’ve go another potential world class 8 much further up the learning curve?
My big worry is that while Alfie is learning on the job Tom gets frustrated and decides to move on. He could walk in to any team in the Prem, maybe as a close no 2 to someone like Dombrandt, but Alfie couldn’t.
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Agree one hundred per cent with your last 2 paragraphs BiND.
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For me Alfie needs to realise he is part of a team and he needs to stop thinking he has to do everything himself. He must learn to side step, must learn to pas the ball.
Also Lee needs to get the players getting to the breakdown a lot quicker, I’ve seen some very lazy running and the urgency is sometimes not there, that I find difficult to except, which is why a have a problem with lee because that is all down to coaching the basics to a level players are not allowed to go below.
I still rate Alfie a lot and would happily play him, the problem is Tom is currently the better 8
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Sorry Westy, but I don't think Tom is the problem at 8. It's definitely Alfie who's problem!!(well, at 8 anyway)
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Seen the game now - not the greatest start to my holidays....Not much to add to the comments but it didn't seem that Briz had to play that well to win fairly comfortably. In part due to our inabilities around the basics of ball retention and using support. We do seem to be trying too hard and for me, this is a coaching issue. Or at least a coaching approach issue.
Alfie is a problem. I did think that it was a good problem to have but now I'm less sure. His skillset isn't that of an 8. Tom was and is an excellent 8 who will likely improve and Nemo is a better 8 as well. Perhaps time to have a think about what we are asking him to do. At present, we risk losing Tom W if we don't make best use of his talents. We have to agree what we want Alfie to do....
I did think we'd see a reaction and whilst not keen on panic, I'm seriously worried that we could end up "leaving points out on the pitch" when that's the sort of excuse that too often suggests a team that perhaps isn't 100% invested in the game plan they are being asked to play. It might "only" be a confidence thing, but that needs to change quickly before we end up in a downward spiral.
We really need to beat Bath next week. The series of Prem games after that are likely v challenging. including Tigers and Exeter away....and on current form, Saints will fancy their chances at Coventry.
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Sorry Westy, but I don't think Tom is the problem at 8. It's definitely Alfie who's problem!!(well, at 8 anyway)
That’s what I meant, Tom is the best 8
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Sorry Westy ..... glad we agree. Will clean my glasses more often.