Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: wycombewasp on July 23, 2019, 11:28:04 AM
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Cipps. axed form training squad, not injured and not given a reason, well who would have seen that coming.
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Ah, but now he doesn't play for Wasps, there will be a much bigger outcry.
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Eddie doesn't like another coach appointing himself!
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I think the final 31 squad will be announced on the 12th but the prospects don't look good.
What I can't quite get my head around is the promotion of Heinz who is going to Italy but the size of the squad going to Italy is 37.. so presumably 6 will be axed from that 37.
I wonder if Heinz has ever played any time at 10?
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I think the final 31 squad will be announced on the 12th but the prospects don't look good.
What I can't quite get my head around is the promotion of Heinz who is going to Italy but the size of the squad going to Italy is 37.. so presumably 6 will be axed from that 37.
I wonder if Heinz has ever played any time at 10?
Sorry I would lay a bet that Eddie will still spring surprises on the final team squad.
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I can't speak for anyone else but the continual speculation on the final squad is getting very boring.
Until the final squad is announced, we don't know who's going & who's not. As Neil's says, I'm sure Eddie would love to spring a surprise or two with his final selections.
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The only observation I have - and its not about individuals in or out is this. A RWC is rarely a place for novice players - yet the squad still contains players with little or no experience at international level
He might like to spring a surprise - but that generally means the coach is gambling as looking at other RWC's it was pretty clear who the top teams were taking
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The only observation I have - and its not about individuals in or out is this. A RWC is rarely a place for novice players - yet the squad still contains players with little or no experience at international level
This. Jones has been going on about experience, more or less, since he became coach. Yet, he is short of experienced players. At a tangent, does anyone know why he discarded Danny Care so abruptly.?
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The only observation I have - and its not about individuals in or out is this. A RWC is rarely a place for novice players - yet the squad still contains players with little or no experience at international level
This. Jones has been going on about experience, more or less, since he became coach. Yet, he is short of experienced players. At a tangent, does anyone know why he discarded Danny Care so abruptly.?
Thank you. Bizarrely, Brown after being ignored for the AIs and 6Ns is back in the squad going to Italy along with Heinz and Joe C and McConnochie and Marchant who have little or no international experience and with Piers Francis who also hasn't been near recent teams?
Contrast to 2003 (yes I know - different times) when the late runner was Lewsey, an experienced Prem and Euro campaigner with lots of big game experience
I think Joe C will be first on the teamsheet by 2023 - but watching Bath games - teams like to attack his side as he still has lots to learn - least that's how it seems to me. And if you are taking Heinz, surely you take Cips?
We'll probably win at a canter now!
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Brown may have just been given a break in the leadup to a grueling RWC camp. Not the youngest anymore, same with Cole. Build some depth and rest some older heads.
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Take the point about international novices not going well at the RWC - that's probably why Cipriani won't go. It may be controversial but I think it's the right call. Really hoping Brown does go. I love Daly as a player at centre or wing but he's no full back.
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The big worry would be Cipriani going "missing" in a big crutial match like he has done in the past. Jones just cannot have that happen. However I suspect that with so many warm up matches there will be a fair few injuries. Knowing our luck it will be Joe and Brad.
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"The big worry would be Cipriani going "missing" in a big crutial match like he has done in the past. Jones just cannot have that happen.'
Which is a coaching issue.
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Or a lack of taking heed of coaching.
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Are you are correct? After 12 years of professional rugby, DC is incapable of accepting professional coaching advice and should not be near the England team?
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Eddie selects each squad the professional way- with a list of names, a hat, blindfold, a donkey, a coin, a set of role playing twenty sided dice, and a pin..... Would be about as effective as whatever method he does use, and provoke rather less debate. Still, I would expect anything from him now, short of Cipriani and Robson, so I won't be surprised when the final squad is with us. I am almost bored of the WC before it starts. How sad. Maybe if I had another nationality I would feel different, but right now the WC produces a wave of indifference in me....
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"The big worry would be Cipriani going "missing" in a big crutial match like he has done in the past. Jones just cannot have that happen.'
Which is a coaching issue.
Haven't some current players shown the same characteristics as well recently, where plan A was working for a short period but then the opposition countered that plan but Faz and Youngs kept to the script and couldn't see that something needed to change.
The Scotland match must haunt some of them.
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"The big worry would be Cipriani going "missing" in a big crutial match like he has done in the past. Jones just cannot have that happen.'
Which is a coaching issue.
Haven't some current players shown the same characteristics as well recently, where plan A was working for a short period but then the opposition countered that plan but Faz and Youngs kept to the script and couldn't see that something needed to change.
The Scotland match must haunt some of them.
Both this and last season
And - vs SA in SA before playing Cips and winning through guile
Plan A went like we were the ABs on acid (metaphorically!) and when SA decided to change the point of attack - we looked hopeless for long periods of the game
Ditto France in 2018.
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Brown may have just been given a break in the leadup to a grueling RWC camp. Not the youngest anymore, same with Cole. Build some depth and rest some older heads.
That's generous imo, for me Brown didn't give the impression he was "being rested" in any number of interviews. If he was being rested, then he wouldn't, surely, have gone to SA to play wing when there were quite a few wings - if you were looking to build depth - who could have done with some game time?
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The point is it may be right and it may be wrong that Cipriani can't take instruction and can go missing. It's up for debate. What doesn't seem to be in question is that Jones thinks there is some sort of issue hence the repeated non selection. For me it's simple and much though I enjoyed watching Cipriani at Wasps I think overall Farrell and Ford are better 10's.
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Brown may have just been given a break in the leadup to a grueling RWC camp. Not the youngest anymore, same with Cole. Build some depth and rest some older heads.
That's generous imo, for me Brown didn't give the impression he was "being rested" in any number of interviews. If he was being rested, then he wouldn't, surely, have gone to SA to play wing when there were quite a few wings - if you were looking to build depth - who could have done with some game time?
I certainly wouldn't have told the players i was just resting them.
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And taking him to SA was for what reason?
No, you might just leave a player out - and let them stew. That could go one of two ways - but if I was doing that - and wanted him rested after a long season - he sure ain't going to SA to play wing so reducing the opportunity to look at actual wing options
But my main issue with England has been the inability, too often, regardless of selection, to change in game and allow teams to make a comeback
This Squidge Rugby vid - says it better than me and is quite funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLQqdG2l0AU
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Because Daly at fullback was a huge risk and if Daly completely blew it Eddie wanted an option? If i recall correctly our other main wing options were also unavailable at the time.
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For me it's simple and much though I enjoyed watching Cipriani at Wasps I think overall Farrell and Ford are better 10's.
On that we will never agree. I guess it comes down to your philosophy and views on how rugby could be played.
Test rugby is a game of percentages and reliability so in that respect Farrell fits, he is consistent, but consistently about 70% of the player that Cipriani is. Ford is a myth or an enigma depending on your viewpoint.
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Ford is a very good 10 indeed in my mind.
Cips is exceptional, but Cips plays like Cips, and pretty much only like Cips. Which means all the attack has to be based on Cips, and on the running lines Cips wants. I suspect Ford could play a similar game, and achieve something of a decent enough like for like replacement if Cips was injured etc. But the issue is, do you want the Cips attack, or do you want your own patterns with players who'll adapt to them?
I think the basic fact is he should have been in the England squad for many years now, with the attack widely based on him, with Ford a very able backup/last 20 etc. However, he's not been in the squad, and large parts of that have been solely on him, nothing to do with his talent. So once we're in a position where a decade (not exactly, but you know what I mean) has been "lost" without him, I don't see the point in crowbarring him in.
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But my main issue with England has been the inability, too often, regardless of selection, to change in game and allow teams to make a comeback
If you are right here Mike, what would be the point of taking Cips then?
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For me it's simple and much though I enjoyed watching Cipriani at Wasps I think overall Farrell and Ford are better 10's.
On that we will never agree. I guess it comes down to your philosophy and views on how rugby could be played.
Test rugby is a game of percentages and reliability so in that respect Farrell fits, he is consistent, but consistently about 70% of the player that Cipriani is. Ford is a myth or an enigma depending on your viewpoint.
Ford looked world class in last years terrible tigers squad. Faz is Faz.
Cips only looks world class on the front foot, as shown with his history of being unable to influence the 'Big Games' with teams under pressure.
That for me is why he doesn't get selected, by multiple international coaches.
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For me it's simple and much though I enjoyed watching Cipriani at Wasps I think overall Farrell and Ford are better 10's.
On that we will never agree. I guess it comes down to your philosophy and views on how rugby could be played.
Test rugby is a game of percentages and reliability so in that respect Farrell fits, he is consistent, but consistently about 70% of the player that Cipriani is. Ford is a myth or an enigma depending on your viewpoint.
Yes, depends on what you want. Cipriani is an outstanding talent of that there is no doubt. But I don't think he can control a game like Ford and Farrell at international level. And international coaches crave that control.
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But my main issue with England has been the inability, too often, regardless of selection, to change in game and allow teams to make a comeback
If you are right here Mike, what would be the point of taking Cips then?
Fair call - and probably not a lot
That said, the SA tour suggested some merit in Cips...
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I think Cipriani is simply a better version of Ford- able to play in heavy traffic that Ford, for all his vision, simply cannot do. Egregious mistakes can happen with Cipriani, but then Ford was never immune to them.
For me Faz has only ever looked class as 12, and England are miles better with a second distributor at twelve. We had great success with Farrell/Ford, but it went wrong when Ford lost form. The solution for me would have been to replace Ford with Cipriani back then, and continue with the game plan. Rumours, and they are just rumours, are that Farrell/Cipriani would not work as Farrell preferred Cipriani to be deployed 250 miles away on club duty for whatever reason, whether that be Ford's friendship with Farrell, or something personality related.
I have struggled to work out Eddie's selections on and forever after the SA tour, my impression from the outside is that he thought that he should have freshened up the selection and when that did not work, it bought the changes he made in selection bought a concomitant change in the game plan. I think the game plan was fine, give or take, and the issues may have come from the rumoured over-beasting of the players in training and a lack of new blood during the winning run- when matches like Italy should have allowed a bit of selectoral freedom to look at options for Brown, for example. Instead we got Daly at 15 on tour in SA.
For me the talk pre-Eddie was of Eddie being a short term boost coach who looks for attitude and no frills, which is what we got.
Once Farrell goes to ten, England lose flexibility.
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Good round up www.
The Farrell to 12 thing was made crystal clear on the Lions tour where the Farrell/Teo style 10/12 left the rest of the Lions backs without the opportunities that seemed to arise with OF at 12. Obviously having a really well matched 13 in Davies helped - but the key change was bringing in a "flexi" 10 - and England could easily have looked to play the Lions 12 and 11/14 with JJ and Cips and Dobbie and Brown.
But like in the video I posted - its like 100% on a shit or bust opening that if thwarted challenges the ability of the team to think for itself.