Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Rossm on August 09, 2022, 05:25:19 PM
-
Report from Bobby Bridge.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-fans-claim-theyre-left-24712607 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-fans-claim-theyre-left-24712607)
-
And...........
From Andy Turner.
'Quite heavy' - Coventry City asked for pitch explanation by EFL ahead of punishment decision.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-pitch-cbsarena-efl-24707141 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-pitch-cbsarena-efl-24707141)
-
Report from Bobby Bridge.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-fans-claim-theyre-left-24712607 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-fans-claim-theyre-left-24712607)
I can't say I disagree with any of the sentiments expressed therein - Wasps are in the headlines for all the wrong reasons, and thus far communication has ranged from poor to non-existent.
-
It's the age of social media, fans expect to hear more than they ever used to
Wasps state that they wish to be more active with social media and more communicative - this is a chance to prove it.
However, they'd be in a minority of sports teams if they were to do so
Clearly we're not the richest club in the world, clearly we aren't pulling up trees on the pitch, but neither do we have a divine right to be winning - no one does
Every team requires an owner to put money into the club, none turn a profit. The same is mostly true for football as well. The difference is that it's a bit easier to fund a top flight rugby team than a top flight football team
We may have space in the cap, but there may be uncertainties with who will get international credits. Launchbury, Willis and Barbeary may earn the club nearly £250k in international credits or they may earn them nothing.
£250k is a fairly substantial number in these reduced salary cap days.
As for the pitch, it's another bad sign, but also with potentially mitigating circumstances as have been discussed elsewhere.
The club has probably earnt good money from the commonwealth games and concert(s) in the summer that we're probably not in a position where we're going to fold in days/weeks/months, but also there's obviously a number of things that need addressing.
The problem with being so fun that has numerous business interests, a large stadium, and vocal tenants is that everything is high profile.
Hopefully in due course our successes will be high profile too.
I may be burying my head in the sand, but ultimately there's nothing I can do about it if things are as bad as some state, so you go with the flow and hope you come out the other side with a smile
-
I’d rather just hear something when there is something definite and meaningful to communicate. Can’t be doing with bland holding statements that are issued in the name of communication but contain zero detail.
-
A sensible thought out post - thanks.
-
I see we’ve issued a statement which makes interesting reading. Clear undertone is that we and the football team are not, currently, on the best of terms.
-
https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/wasps-group-statement-regarding-arena-pitch-stephen-vaughan-group-chief-executive-officer/
That's good for CCFC stuff, but nothing about the bankruptcy rumours.
-
I think that’s rumour and speculation of the highest order and although not what is being addressed in this statement it’s clear they quite rightly don’t want to comment on every piece of that.
-
Might be some long term finance issues,but the pitch is a side show for me. Same for both teams, end of.
Recruitment freeze is.....worrying, but more worrying is the shite game plan last year that clearly did not trust the double figures guys to finish from 5m. If we can get an all court game going early this squad could do really well. If it stats poorly it could be last year but worse.
If we get some confidence this could all seem like silly season shenanigans, long term bond stuff not withstanding. If we have a wet turd of a season, things will seem grimmer than they are now.
-
:) “A wet turd of a season”. That sounds like a bad season indeed.
-
Sounds like a tummy upset.
-
Worth a read-
https://rsscouk.wordpress.com/2022/08/10/wasps-a-club-worth-fighting-for/
-
The latest rumour (take with salt as required) is that Wasps have raised a CVA.
-
Funnily enough I’ve just finished reading the, Niels. I agree, a good read that encapsulates a lot of our discussions.
CoDY,
If one is being arranged it’s not a big deal. It’s a way for companies to restructure debt if most creditors agree. It’s designed to stop one or 2 creditors forcing an otherwise sound business in to bankruptcy and asset stripping.
https://www.gov.uk/company-voluntary-arrangements
-
If one is being arranged it’s not a big deal
No expert, but wouldn't a CVA mean that Wasps would essentially be insolvent?
Can't think PRL would be too happy even if creditors were.
-
Surely it would also put off any new signings? Why sign for a club that could go to the wall imminently?
-
Yes. That is if it is all not just a lie. If true, it would be a major story. However not a peep in any newspaper that I can see.
-
Like most on here, I won't be believing anything unless its an official announcement from the club.
-
Plus 1
-
In the past, when clubs, including Wasps, have been in dire financial trouble, there's stories of players/ staff not getting paid etc.
I haven't heard anything like that yet, and instead the official Instagram account is still pushing out videos of players smiling and laughing.
I'm sure that the players have no more information than us regarding the financial situation, but I'm sure they'd be somewhat more disgruntled if they weren't getting paid on time
-
Currently there is one PRL club who is rumoured to have difficulty paying players and it ain't Wasps.
-
In the past, when clubs, including Wasps, have been in dire financial trouble, there's stories of players/ staff not getting paid etc.
I haven't heard anything like that yet, and instead the official Instagram account is still pushing out videos of players smiling and laughing.
I'm sure that the players have no more information than us regarding the financial situation, but I'm sure they'd be somewhat more disgruntled if they weren't getting paid on time
Very good point
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
No surprise that a former employee who was let go feels disgruntled. It's hard to know if there is any substance to the rumours with so much bandwagon jumping.
-
It's hard to know if there is any substance to the rumours with so much bandwagon jumping.
exactly. Every report builds on the previous one & any facts there ever were get lost under piles of rumour, social media nonsense & people adding 2 to 2 and getting 5.
I'm sure there are issues but until the facts are known its just all speculation.
-
It's hard to know if there is any substance to the rumours with so much bandwagon jumping.
exactly. Every report builds on the previous one & any facts there ever were get lost under piles of rumour, social media nonsense & people adding 2 to 2 and getting 5.
I'm sure there are issues but until the facts are known its just all speculation.
Speculation driven by a core of CCFC supporters who will do anything to fuel the fires.
-
There's certainly issues.
The bond situation is evidence of that.
But that doesn't mean everything is completely falling apart
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
No surprise that a former employee who was let go feels disgruntled. It's hard to know if there is any substance to the rumours with so much bandwagon jumping.
+1
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
I liked Nuttall as the stadium announcer but quite why his opinion on the broader situation has been sought by the CET I’ve no idea.
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
I liked Nuttall as the stadium announcer but quite why his opinion on the broader situation has been sought by the CET I’ve no idea.
Slow news day? They'll be speaking to James Haskell next🤣
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548)
I liked Nuttall as the stadium announcer but quite why his opinion on the broader situation has been sought by the CET I’ve no idea.
He tweeted it this morning.
They're presumably just posting wasps related news from someone who used to know the inner circle.
I just hope that Pete doesn't know more than we do and is just coming to his own conclusions
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548)
I liked Nuttall as the stadium announcer but quite why his opinion on the broader situation has been sought by the CET I’ve no idea.
He tweeted it this morning.
They're presumably just posting wasps related news from someone who used to know the inner circle.
I just hope that Pete doesn't know more than we do and is just coming to his own conclusions
Can't believe he does - no love lost I think.
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548)
I liked Nuttall as the stadium announcer but quite why his opinion on the broader situation has been sought by the CET I’ve no idea.
He tweeted it this morning.
They're presumably just posting wasps related news from someone who used to know the inner circle.
I just hope that Pete doesn't know more than we do and is just coming to his own conclusions
Can't believe he does - no love lost I think.
In fairness, if what was posted in Twitter originally is correct, he was treated pretty poorly.
But still, that doesn't mean the club is about to implode.
Just that it sometimes misses common sense the same as all businesses
-
I know it was a tweet but I’d like to believe he did the whole interview over a PA system.
-
I know it was a tweet but I’d like to believe he did the whole interview over a PA system.
:) :) :)
-
If it was our PA nobody would have understood a word.
-
If it was our PA nobody would have understood a word.
Sounded much improved on telly for the 7s
-
One of the things i picked up on was this statement. If true it really does show we are struggling. A prem club without any social media team and hoping for freebies.
"Wasps' apparent slow down on communications could indeed be linked to the ongoing bond issue but it could also be a knock-on effect of losing both its communications manager and its digital and social media manager in April.
Advertisements for two communication roles were advertised but have subsequently been removed, with the club last week posting on its website a vacancy for a matchday media officer on a voluntary basis, with expenses"
-
CoDY,
If one is being arranged it’s not a big deal. It’s a way for companies to restructure debt if most creditors agree. It’s designed to stop one or 2 creditors forcing an otherwise sound business in to bankruptcy and asset stripping.
https://www.gov.uk/company-voluntary-arrangements
Thanks for that, BiND - interesting and informative stuff.
However, *if* the CVA rumour is true, I can't agree that it's "not a big deal." It wouldn't necessarily mean that the end was nigh, of course, no matter how loudly some may proclaim otherwise... but it'd still be a big deal insofar as I'm concerned.
This is especially true given that "sound" appears to be the last word one can use (non-sarcastically!) to describe Wasps' business model.
I just wish the Club would get on and say *something* - we're a month away from the start of the season, less time still from the preseason friendlies, and the silence is deafening.
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
I liked Nuttall as the stadium announcer but quite why his opinion on the broader situation has been sought by the CET I’ve no idea.
Slow news day? They'll be speaking to James Haskell next🤣
First post for a while that’s made me laugh 🤣
-
CoDY,
If one is being arranged it’s not a big deal. It’s a way for companies to restructure debt if most creditors agree. It’s designed to stop one or 2 creditors forcing an otherwise sound business in to bankruptcy and asset stripping.
https://www.gov.uk/company-voluntary-arrangements
Thanks for that, BiND - interesting and informative stuff.
However, *if* the CVA rumour is true, I can't agree that it's "not a big deal." It wouldn't necessarily mean that the end was nigh, of course, no matter how loudly some may proclaim otherwise... but it'd still be a big deal insofar as I'm concerned.
This is especially true given that "sound" appears to be the last word one can use (non-sarcastically!) to describe Wasps' business model.
I just wish the Club would get on and say *something* - we're a month away from the start of the season, less time still from the preseason friendlies, and the silence is deafening.
I think I conflated CVA and what used to be called pre-packs. If it is a CVA its not good because although the business is probably sound it puts the onus on paying back creditors rather than investing in the underlying business, so not a good step.
-
They shot themselves in the foot with Pete. The max they save is his salary plus contributions, and that can't be much. In the bargain they antagonise him and many fans.
-
CoDY,
If one is being arranged it’s not a big deal. It’s a way for companies to restructure debt if most creditors agree. It’s designed to stop one or 2 creditors forcing an otherwise sound business in to bankruptcy and asset stripping.
https://www.gov.uk/company-voluntary-arrangements
Thanks for that, BiND - interesting and informative stuff.
However, *if* the CVA rumour is true, I can't agree that it's "not a big deal." It wouldn't necessarily mean that the end was nigh, of course, no matter how loudly some may proclaim otherwise... but it'd still be a big deal insofar as I'm concerned.
This is especially true given that "sound" appears to be the last word one can use (non-sarcastically!) to describe Wasps' business model.
I just wish the Club would get on and say *something* - we're a month away from the start of the season, less time still from the preseason friendlies, and the silence is deafening.
I think I conflated CVA and what used to be called pre-packs. If it is a CVA its not good because although the business is probably sound it puts the onus on paying back creditors rather than investing in the underlying business, so not a good step.
I’m sorry BiND, how can the business be considered sound? Annual losses, unable to repay loans, unable to recruit players, looks like a number of season ticket holders not renewing, unable to maintain the pitch.
-
They shot themselves in the foot with Pete. The max they save is his salary plus contributions, and that can't be much. In the bargain they antagonise him and many fans.
I have a gut feeling that there is more to the Pete affair than we know about.
-
CoDY,
If one is being arranged it’s not a big deal. It’s a way for companies to restructure debt if most creditors agree. It’s designed to stop one or 2 creditors forcing an otherwise sound business in to bankruptcy and asset stripping.
https://www.gov.uk/company-voluntary-arrangements
Thanks for that, BiND - interesting and informative stuff.
However, *if* the CVA rumour is true, I can't agree that it's "not a big deal." It wouldn't necessarily mean that the end was nigh, of course, no matter how loudly some may proclaim otherwise... but it'd still be a big deal insofar as I'm concerned.
This is especially true given that "sound" appears to be the last word one can use (non-sarcastically!) to describe Wasps' business model.
I just wish the Club would get on and say *something* - we're a month away from the start of the season, less time still from the preseason friendlies, and the silence is deafening.
I think I conflated CVA and what used to be called pre-packs. If it is a CVA its not good because although the business is probably sound it puts the onus on paying back creditors rather than investing in the underlying business, so not a good step.
I’m sorry BiND, how can the business be considered sound? Annual losses, unable to repay loans, unable to recruit players, looks like a number of season ticket holders not renewing, unable to maintain the pitch.
Sam, you need to detach yourself from the narrative you hope for and look at reality. Yes, completely agree, it’s a challenge refinancing the bond. But unable to recruit players - we’ve signed one of the worlds best TH props. ST holders not renewing - do you have the figures then? Can’t maintain the pitch - CCFC’s owners are playing games as is their want. Most of all you need to reconcile yourself to the fact that if Wasps go under (unlikely) you’ll be travelling to Sixfields/St Andrews/wherever again.
-
At the risk of throwing myself onto a live grenade, I was going to post the exact same comment as Sam (and then thought better of it, as I didn't want to stir the pot).
I still think the point stands, though.
The Koch signing was announced nine months ago - while I obviously don't know the ins and outs of Wasps' financial situation, a lot seems to have changed since then.
Refinancing the bond isn't something a "sound" business would have to do in the first place, unless I'm very much mistaken!
When all is said and done, everyone outside of the Club's corporate structure - Wasps fans, CCFC fans, and everybody in between - is relying upon a mixture of speculation, hearsay, and wishful thinking.
Until something definitive is said and/or happens, our take on "reality" is no more factual than theirs.
-
CODY I’d hate to think you couldn’t post what you really think. Whether it stirs the pot or not is irrelevant - that’s what forums are for.
-
Thanks, Shugs. I appreciate that.
I just didn't want to find myself accused of being a Sky Blues Talk plant, or banned for perceived criticism of Wasps, you know?
I'm very much a newcomer to the forum, and times are tough - it's understandable that the regulars have their guard up (and speaking personally, this blasted heat isn't facilitating calm, reasoned debate!).
-
CoDY,
If one is being arranged it’s not a big deal. It’s a way for companies to restructure debt if most creditors agree. It’s designed to stop one or 2 creditors forcing an otherwise sound business in to bankruptcy and asset stripping.
https://www.gov.uk/company-voluntary-arrangements
Thanks for that, BiND - interesting and informative stuff.
However, *if* the CVA rumour is true, I can't agree that it's "not a big deal." It wouldn't necessarily mean that the end was nigh, of course, no matter how loudly some may proclaim otherwise... but it'd still be a big deal insofar as I'm concerned.
This is especially true given that "sound" appears to be the last word one can use (non-sarcastically!) to describe Wasps' business model.
I just wish the Club would get on and say *something* - we're a month away from the start of the season, less time still from the preseason friendlies, and the silence is deafening.
I think I conflated CVA and what used to be called pre-packs. If it is a CVA its not good because although the business is probably sound it puts the onus on paying back creditors rather than investing in the underlying business, so not a good step.
I’m sorry BiND, how can the business be considered sound? Annual losses, unable to repay loans, unable to recruit players, looks like a number of season ticket holders not renewing, unable to maintain the pitch.
If the underlying business is sound, maybe with some business changes such as redundancies, management changes, sale of some assets etc, the CVA gives the company time to make those changes.
The creditors have a choice, accept reduced interest payments or maybe extended time periods to repay debts or they can bankrupt the company. It used to be the case that all creditors had to agree to the restructuring of the debt, now its 75%.
Just to be clear, I'm talking about a hypothetical company here, I have no insight in to what's going on at Wasps. As I've said before, if I had to guess I'd say they are struggling to agree the final terms of a new loan or bond because of the uncertainty over interest rates.
-
Sam's points are completely valid.
The bond is a big concern
However, annual losses, while a big problem, are the norm for most sports clubs unfortunately.
Season ticket holders not renewing is always a thing this time of year. Some people say they won't, then they either do or don't, it's the same every year.
Having rumours and news reports every week about your club is never good, but if the bond is refinanced and if we win a couple of early games everything will start to look a lot better
-
CoDY ... you're doing all right.
-
Given the perceived uncertainly regarding the finances, it will possibly deter supporters from buying STs or advance tickets, until there is a known resolution of the outcome.
-
At the moment there's a lot of speculation & theory floating around. However there are some facts in the back ground that don't sound great, the bond issue being the biggest one.
However till something either good or bad happens or something is officially announced, theres not a lot we as supporters can do. Unless someone has a few million burning a hole in their pocket!!
I would rather the club kept quiet if they have nothing to tell us.
Once the season starts we can get behind our team, but until then, as frustrating a sit is, we have to sit tight.
-
At the moment there's a lot of speculation & theory floating around. However there are some facts in the back ground that don't sound great, the bond issue being the biggest one.
However till something either good or bad happens or something is officially announced, theres not a lot we as supporters can do. Unless someone has a few million burning a hole in their pocket!!
I would rather the club kept quiet if they have nothing to tell us.
Once the season starts we can get behind our team, but until then, as frustrating a sit is, we have to sit tight.
The bolded part is the only aspect of your post with which I disagree.
Remaining quiet is a perfectly viable approach for a rugby club to take in many situations - the outcome of a disciplinary process, for instance, or the announcement of a potential new signing.
Keeping shtum when the continued existence of the club is in question, and more rumours are being added to the pile with each passing day, isn't sustainable.
-
but CoDY, if the club have nothing to tell us, either good or bad, any communications they send, will just be dismissed as pointless or proof of impending doom/salvation.
What would you have them say?
-
At the moment there's a lot of speculation & theory floating around. However there are some facts in the back ground that don't sound great, the bond issue being the biggest one.
However till something either good or bad happens or something is officially announced, theres not a lot we as supporters can do. Unless someone has a few million burning a hole in their pocket!!
I would rather the club kept quiet if they have nothing to tell us.
Once the season starts we can get behind our team, but until then, as frustrating a sit is, we have to sit tight.
The bolded part is the only aspect of your post with which I disagree.
Remaining quiet is a perfectly viable approach for a rugby club to take in many situations - the outcome of a disciplinary process, for instance, or the announcement of a potential new signing.
Keeping shtum when the continued existence of the club is in question, and more rumours are being added to the pile with each passing day, isn't sustainable.
It may well be that they have been told to be quiet by their legal advisors. A position which is not unusual.
-
but CoDY, if the club have nothing to tell us, either good or bad, any communications they send, will just be dismissed as pointless or proof of impending doom/salvation.
What would you have them say?
Something. Anything!
Yes, those with an axe to grind will interpret any statement in light of their agendas, but that's going to happen regardless. Keeping fans in the dark while rumours continue to swirl, all in the name of not providing doom-mongers with further ammunition, is ridiculous.
-
It may well be that they have been told to be quiet by their legal advisors. A position which is not unusual.
Very true.
However, the Club wouldn't need its lawyers' permission to, say, deny Fissler's report regarding the freeze on recruitment, be it via a formal press release or a quiet word in Bobby Bridge's ear.
Obviously the bond-related stuff is much thornier, and no statements will be made without going through formal channels first, but that doesn't apply to every allegation out there right now.
The upshot of the Club's silence is that everything looks dire, so I'd be happy (well, happier!) with some sort of statement acknowledging the situation and promising further information in due course. It wouldn't stem the tide of rumours and hearsay, of course, but it'd be better than staying quiet and giving the impression that heads are buried in the sandy pitch at the CBS.
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
I don’t often post but I’m so p*seed off. I liked Pete as announcer and wish he hadn’t been treated so badly and let down but he is a disgruntled ex employee. Also have to say I think Bobby bridge is good journalist but his recent wasps coverage is just stories about fan posts on Twitter. I’ve seen no real analysis or attempt to discover the bond issue etc.
Some fans are beyond parody one vocal lady commented on a post agreeing she didn’t like all the negative fan comments and the. Commented on Pete’s saying she was glad hadn’t renewed season ticket and doing the same negative comments she slagged off in other post! Then there are guys from wasps report who slag everything off on back of them being hard done to but in actual fact are some of the most negative posts I’ve seen.
On the pitch issue I really don’t see what wasps could have done better communication wise. I genuinely think they want to build the cuff relationship so wanted to remain silent but in end had to comment due to negative ccfc briefings. Who is to blame for state of pitch, who is right and wrong I don’t know but I get why wasps would not want public slanging match.
The finances are a concern of course but there are financial rules and only so much the club can say. I really don’t know what people expect from the club here “we are in financial difficulty we’re doing our best” hardly a statement any company releases.
To the fan accounts who say won’t renew season tickets, won’t buy shirts, will only go to away games - good strategy financially starve the club more. Don’t get the logic. Rant over.
T
-
It may well be that they have been told to be quiet by their legal advisors. A position which is not unusual.
Given that everything going on behind the scenes will probably covered by NDAs, SE rules and CAs, then we cannot really expect to get an info regarding the nitty gritty.
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
I don’t often post but I’m so p*seed off. I liked Pete as announcer and wish he hadn’t been treated so badly and let down but he is a disgruntled ex employee. Also have to say I think Bobby bridge is good journalist but his recent wasps coverage is just stories about fan posts on Twitter. I’ve seen no real analysis or attempt to discover the bond issue etc.
Some fans are beyond parody one vocal lady commented on a post agreeing she didn’t like all the negative fan comments and the. Commented on Pete’s saying she was glad hadn’t renewed season ticket and doing the same negative comments she slagged off in other post! Then there are guys from wasps report who slag everything off on back of them being hard done to but in actual fact are some of the most negative posts I’ve seen.
On the pitch issue I really don’t see what wasps could have done better communication wise. I genuinely think they want to build the cuff relationship so wanted to remain silent but in end had to comment due to negative ccfc briefings. Who is to blame for state of pitch, who is right and wrong I don’t know but I get why wasps would not want public slanging match.
The finances are a concern of course but there are financial rules and only so much the club can say. I really don’t know what people expect from the club here “we are in financial difficulty we’re doing our best” hardly a statement any company releases.
To the fan accounts who say won’t renew season tickets, won’t buy shirts, will only go to away games - good strategy financially starve the club more. Don’t get the logic. Rant over.
T
+1 and welcome to the messageboard Covguy.
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
I don’t often post but I’m so p*seed off. I liked Pete as announcer and wish he hadn’t been treated so badly and let down but he is a disgruntled ex employee. Also have to say I think Bobby bridge is good journalist but his recent wasps coverage is just stories about fan posts on Twitter. I’ve seen no real analysis or attempt to discover the bond issue etc.
Some fans are beyond parody one vocal lady commented on a post agreeing she didn’t like all the negative fan comments and the. Commented on Pete’s saying she was glad hadn’t renewed season ticket and doing the same negative comments she slagged off in other post! Then there are guys from wasps report who slag everything off on back of them being hard done to but in actual fact are some of the most negative posts I’ve seen.
On the pitch issue I really don’t see what wasps could have done better communication wise. I genuinely think they want to build the cuff relationship so wanted to remain silent but in end had to comment due to negative ccfc briefings. Who is to blame for state of pitch, who is right and wrong I don’t know but I get why wasps would not want public slanging match.
The finances are a concern of course but there are financial rules and only so much the club can say. I really don’t know what people expect from the club here “we are in financial difficulty we’re doing our best” hardly a statement any company releases.
To the fan accounts who say won’t renew season tickets, won’t buy shirts, will only go to away games - good strategy financially starve the club more. Don’t get the logic. Rant over.
T
+1 and welcome to the messageboard Covguy.
+2, good rant!
-
There are two ways to view Pete's comments:
1) The rantings of a disgruntled ex-employee.
2) Someone who, after spending 25 years working for the club, more out of love for the club then money, who still has a number of contacts still involved with the club whom he has spoken to, and his comments are out of concern for the players, staff and supporters.
-
I haven't posted in a while. Been too busy with life. Neils' post really sums up my thoughts. We have just been through, and are continuing through, some unprecedented and traumatic times. With so many suffering and so many businesses going under if Wasps survive it will be almost miraculous and a wonderful testimony to the people running Wasps. I doubt they have much that they can report, no matter how much we as fans might want hourly updates. We just have to be patient and trust that the Executive care about the club. Those that have met members of the executive speak highly of them and their commitment. I have no reason to doubt their opinion. Maybe we won't survive but we need to keep perspective. The employees at Wasps and CCFC have their livelihoods at stake. It is disrespectful IMHO to engage in slanging matches and baseless rumour mongering.
-
I haven't posted in a while. Been too busy with life. Neils' post really sums up my thoughts. We have just been through, and are continuing through, some unprecedented and traumatic times. With so many suffering and so many businesses going under if Wasps survive it will be almost miraculous and a wonderful testimony to the people running Wasps. I doubt they have much that they can report, no matter how much we as fans might want hourly updates. We just have to be patient and trust that the Executive care about the club. Those that have met members of the executive speak highly of them and their commitment. I have no reason to doubt their opinion. Maybe we won't survive but we need to keep perspective. The employees at Wasps and CCFC have their livelihoods at stake. It is disrespectful IMHO to engage in slanging matches and baseless rumour mongering.
+1
-
There are two ways to view Pete's comments:
1) The rantings of a disgruntled ex-employee.
2) Someone who, after spending 25 years working for the club, more out of love for the club then money, who still has a number of contacts still involved with the club whom he has spoken to, and his comments are out of concern for the players, staff and supporters.
Most likely it will be somewhere in the middle, his views of whats going on may be coloured (understandably) by the way he was treated but it doesn't mean there's no issues.
-
Afternoon all. Long time lurker, first time poster. Be gentle...
Largely in agreement with the school of thought that, while there are rumours and discussions about the finances, the underlying business has to be sound. Let's not forget that a lot of the income streams were predicated on multiple large scale concerts through the close-season, along with events and conferences in the arena facilities.
That all got Covid-ed.
With a return to normality there will no doubt be work happening to attract acts to the CBSA next Summer. As proved this Summer with Rammstein, the facilities are there for big shows, and having a list of acts previously hosted including Bon Jovi, Bruce Springsteen, Spice Girls et al can't hurt. Additionally conferences and events will be being arranged and the facilities booked.
None of this helps with immediate cashflow, but taking a step back and looking at the macro picture it doesn't look too gloomy. The season starting, bums on seats - for both the football and rugby clubs - will kickstart the cashflow and hopefully unstick whatever levers are required.
You can't take the bond issue in isolation. Yes, targets weren't hit and options are no doubt being investigated and may well not be where they should be - but being realistic - Covid messed up the finances of so many businesses that one can hardly consider Wasps an outlier. Bondholders will accept the delay, because its the only way they'll see a return on their investment.
So, overall I'm optimistic that we'll have a club to support and faith that the relevant people are doing their jobs while we all chinwag about what we think they should be doing.
I promise all my posts won't be this serious.
-
faith that the relevant people are doing their jobs while we all chinwag about what we think they should be doing
You mean that the mass ranks of Twitter, Facebook etc don't know better than the people employed to run the club?
Wow, that's a radical thought!
-
Afternoon all. Long time lurker, first time poster. Be gentle...
Largely in agreement with the school of thought that, while there are rumours and discussions about the finances, the underlying business has to be sound. Let's not forget that a lot of the income streams were predicated on multiple large scale concerts through the close-season, along with events and conferences in the arena facilities.
That all got Covid-ed.
With a return to normality there will no doubt be work happening to attract acts to the CBSA next Summer. As proved this Summer with Rammstein, the facilities are there for big shows, and having a list of acts previously hosted including Bon Jovi, Bruce Springsteen, Spice Girls et al can't hurt. Additionally conferences and events will be being arranged and the facilities booked.
None of this helps with immediate cashflow, but taking a step back and looking at the macro picture it doesn't look too gloomy. The season starting, bums on seats - for both the football and rugby clubs - will kickstart the cashflow and hopefully unstick whatever levers are required.
You can't take the bond issue in isolation. Yes, targets weren't hit and options are no doubt being investigated and may well not be where they should be - but being realistic - Covid messed up the finances of so many businesses that one can hardly consider Wasps an outlier. Bondholders will accept the delay, because its the only way they'll see a return on their investment.
So, overall I'm optimistic that we'll have a club to support and faith that the relevant people are doing their jobs while we all chinwag about what we think they should be doing.
I promise all my posts won't be this serious.
Good post.
Thank you for sharing.
And I agree with your sentiments of pulling back a bit and seeing the big picture.
That said, Wasps need to play an attractive style of rugby this season to pull in the fans.
People (especially newcomers) come for tries, so let's hope we pick things up a notch...whilst the stadium and surrounding facilities are leveraged effectively.
-
You mean that the mass ranks of Twitter, Facebook etc don't know better than the people employed to run the club?
Wow, that's a radical thought!
It's not *just* self-appointed experts on social media, though, is it?
The Times ran the 'Sisu is looking to sell' story, explicitly tying it in with Wasps' financial situation; The Rugby Paper published the 'moratorium on recruitment' article; even the Coventry Telegraph has carried two pessimistic Wasps-related stories this week.
-
There are two ways to view Pete's comments:
1) The rantings of a disgruntled ex-employee.
2) Someone who, after spending 25 years working for the club, more out of love for the club then money, who still has a number of contacts still involved with the club whom he has spoken to, and his comments are out of concern for the players, staff and supporters.
Agreed!
-
It's not *just* self-appointed experts on social media, though, is it?
true, but a lot of stories in any level of media are based on rumour & sensationalising of whatever story may actually be behind it. A headline of "Wasps to go bust!!" is much better than "Wasps delay repaying of bond & we're not sure what will happen next"
-
Agree with most of these sentiments especially Daeg and BlackandGoldSunglasses - good posts. I genuinely believe those running the club know what they are doing and have been confronted with a perfect storm of problems. As for the articles etc that are not forum based it looks to me like one piece shared between several outlets rather than multiple stories.
-
true, but a lot of stories in any level of media are based on rumour & sensationalising of whatever story may actually be behind it. A headline of "Wasps to go bust!!" is much better than "Wasps delay repaying of bond & we're not sure what will happen next"
Also true, but the stories that have come out in the mainstream press haven't been particularly sensational, from what I've seen thus far. If they wanted to go down the clickbait route, they could've done so; instead, they've erred on the side of caution, even as the social media rumour mill has ratcheted up the sensationalism day by day.
I don't see Bobby Bridge, of all people, jumping on an anti-Wasps bandwagon. Nor do I see him copying and pasting "one piece shared between several outlets."
-
Also true, but the stories that have come out in the mainstream press haven't been particularly sensational, from what I've seen thus far. If they wanted to go down the clickbait route, they could've done so; instead, they've erred on the side of caution, even as the social media rumour mill has ratcheted up the sensationalism day by day.
that's a good point,
-
It’s the closed season. We haven’t got a weekend game to look forward to, last weekend’s game to analyse, no team selections to bicker about, no controversial red cards etc etc …. And by we I mean the whole rugby reporting and fan base.
I think there’s an awful lot of devil finding work for idle hands going on.
-
Unfortunately, with the cashflow where it seems to be, we can't even indulge in relentless transfer speculation....
One for another thread, perhaps, but I think the squad is a little light in some areas, plus a certain Mike Brown seems to still be available to add experience to a young back line...
I'll get my coat
-
I’d snap him up in the blink of an eye if possible.
-
Unfortunately, with the cashflow where it seems to be, we can't even indulge in relentless transfer speculation....
One for another thread, perhaps, but I think the squad is a little light in some areas, plus a certain Mike Brown seems to still be available to add experience to a young back line...
I'll get my coat
You have to wonder - if he's such an attractive proposition, why is he still without a club.
-
The netball super league "signing window" opens today, be interesting to see if there is any Wasps action in or out there.
-
Unfortunately, with the cashflow where it seems to be, we can't even indulge in relentless transfer speculation....
One for another thread, perhaps, but I think the squad is a little light in some areas, plus a certain Mike Brown seems to still be available to add experience to a young back line...
I'll get my coat
You have to wonder - if he's such an attractive proposition, why is he still without a club.
A fair point indeed.
-
You have to wonder - if he's such an attractive proposition, why is he still without a club.
wonder if he's still viewed as a bit "difficult"? or maybe he wants wages no one is willing to pay?
-
You have to wonder - if he's such an attractive proposition, why is he still without a club.
wonder if he's still viewed as a bit "difficult"? or maybe he wants wages no one is willing to pay?
Sale looked at him but opted for Woodward instead as he offered more versatility and is a bit younger than Brown.
I think most of us agreed here that if we looked at Woodward, we might as well have kept Miller, not sure if Brown would just block Crossdale too much, would perhaps think differently if we had two young bucks on the wing but our back three options are quite experienced
-
Woodward was a cracking player a few seasons ago. Unfortunaltely for him (and Gloucester) his body just broke and he was perma-injured.
Very good point that Miller would offer more than Woodward - I agree. Wouldn't be an upgrade, and that's what you have to be looking at every time.
-
Pete Nutall view -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-news-24729548
I liked Nuttall as the stadium announcer but quite why his opinion on the broader situation has been sought by the CET I’ve no idea.
Slow news day? They'll be speaking to James Haskell next🤣
First post for a while that’s made me laugh 🤣
Sorry to read in another thread that you've got health issues. Hope whatever they are that you're making progress. Best wishes.
-
Woodward was a cracking player a few seasons ago. Unfortunaltely for him (and Gloucester) his body just broke and he was perma-injured.
Very good point that Miller would offer more than Woodward - I agree. Wouldn't be an upgrade, and that's what you have to be looking at every time.
Miller is as broken as woodward, so not sure he would.
-
Ross - ignore the trolls on the other thread (I've left it for the time being) and save your energy and puff for important things. Take care of yourself and get better.
-
All we're doing is arguing the technicalities so that we can eventually say "I told you so".
I'm really not bothered about being right or wrong with my views on the pitch, finances, contracts. Ultimately I have no way at all to affect the process so my views are pretty much irrelevant, other than to maybe be "right" when all the facts are known....... Which they probably never will be.
All I want is for Wasps to have a harmonious relationship with everyone that uses the arena, including ccfc.
And personally it would be nice if there was less hatred among some ccfc fans and Wasps fans. Unfortunately that's often human nature so I don't expect it to change
-
Plus 1
-
Ross - ignore the trolls on the other thread (I've left it for the time being) and save your energy and puff for important things. Take care of yourself and get better.
Thanks for your thoughts, Wonky. However I was addressing Rugbyintheblood who said he was in poor health in another thread.
-
All I want is for Wasps to have a harmonious relationship with everyone that uses the arena, including ccfc.
And personally it would be nice if there was less hatred among some ccfc fans and Wasps fans. Unfortunately that's often human nature so I don't expect it to change
Now this is something with which I can agree wholeheartedly.
This may be a banning offence in and of itself - and even if it isn't, I'm sure someone will use it as "proof" that I'm an interloping Coventry City fan, here to stir up trouble! - but as an olive branch of sorts, I'd like to say that the posters at Sky Blues Talk aren't all bad.
Yes, some of them embody the worst stereotypes rugby fans have about football fans (and in fairness, they'd probably say the same about us); however, the rest of them are just impassioned supporters of their club, who feel they're caught in the middle of a load of corporate b.s. for which they're not to blame, and they're feeling hacked off as a result.
I, for one, know what that's like.
They have a thread on the forum that's dedicated to raising funds so they can buy season tickets "for other individuals, families and children" - as cynical as I am about football as a whole, that's just plain nice, and I think it should be applauded.
None of this in any way justifies the extremist, "F**k Wasps - they're a bunch of c***s and I hope they die!" stuff that their lunatic fringe keeps spewing, which remains utterly indefensible as far as I'm concerned. I just think we'd all benefit from exercising some empathy and highlighting our similarities instead of our differences (and that goes for humanity as a whole, not just this specific Wasps-vs-CCFC scenario).
Let the sledging commence! ;)
-
CoDY. I agree with you 100%. However, for what it's worth I don't go onto other fans' sites and troll them unmercifully. I have always strongly resented these actions - not just by Sky Blues fans but also from supporters of other rugby clubs. I have the greatest sympathy for CCFC fans, the vast majority of whom are not trolls. But why the obvious was not done before the season started and rearrange their home fixtures to be played away is beyond me. Both sides seem to be aware that there would be problems with the pitch yet all I have seen is that Dave Boddy said it was "impossible" without any elaboration.
-
Completely agree, Rossm - I can't think of a single occasion on which internet trolling has been in any way beneficial, and it only ever serves to widen divisions and stir up bad blood.
As for the specifics of the current dispute between the two clubs, I share your sense of bewilderment. There's so much speculation and hearsay going around that separating fact from fiction is nigh on impossible as things stand.
-
Rossm I don’t really know what the definition of a troll is. There are two threads I post in, one about the pitch, which is directly affecting me as an individual and 20,000 others, and one about Answers from the club, which is something that also affects me somewhat.
-
For whatever little it's worth, I don't think you're a troll, Sam.
There are certainly some posters at Drunken Wasps whom I feel fit the bill, although trolling - like so many other things in life - is very much in the eye of the beholder.
-
Completely agree with what CoDY and Ross say. It is a pity that a few bad apples can give such an awful (and incorrect) impression of the rest of the crop. Their schools must have breathed a sigh of relief when they left.
-
I bet none of your schools were approved like mine :)
-
Nice one Sam! One of my sister-in-law's schools was tho'
-
I bet none of your schools were approved like mine :)
Damn you, Sam. I've waiting for ages to get that joke in ;)
-
An Internet troll is: someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
(Urban Dictionary)
I don't think Sam fits that description, whether you agree with him or not he at least tries to engage and make a case.
-
Rossm I don’t really know what the definition of a troll is. There are two threads I post in, one about the pitch, which is directly affecting me as an individual and 20,000 others, and one about Answers from the club, which is something that also affects me somewhat.
I can't say I have a definition of what a troll is, other than to say, I know one when I come across one - bit like turds actually. I don't include you in that group. Perhaps because you didn't try and disguise your allegiance when you registered your handle. Also, you have a sense of humour which real trolls lack totally and you've never (AFAIK) hijacked a thread.
-
Sorry about this, from SBT
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/how-wasps-lost-the-battle-for-coventrys-hearts-and-minds/
-
Another ex employee and nothing particularly new in there.
-
It's an interesting take, but does seem to ignore that a lot of the business losses have been caused by investing in the future of the business. That Covid happened and essentially stopped everything dead for two years had made it look a lot worse than it would otherwise. Making a loss per se is not always a bad thing.
Its probably worth saying that Derek is not the only person on the board who has invested in the future of this club and the associated business.
I hope he stays with us because he is a lovely chap and deserves every success, but if he does choose to cut his losses and go I will always be grateful to him for what he had done for me, my family, and my club.
-
Sorry about this, from SBT
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/how-wasps-lost-the-battle-for-coventrys-hearts-and-minds/
That’s uncomfortable reading, but probably because so much of it is true.
It was a big gamble to locate to Coventry.
And he’s right in the fact that they underestimated how difficult it would be to bring in a new following.
He’s right when he points out that we’ve never really captured the hearts of the wider area.
Such a huge project, that now seems quite fragile.
All I want to do is watch my team play good rugby, but it’s never as easy as that.
-
Certainly true in many ways.
Also shows the way forward to an extent. Nobody makes money from the sport, so either the sport changes to a model that enables the clubs to generate cash, the RFU start funding the clubs themselves, the sport cuts its cloth according to its means, or we find the same sort of people willing to sink in cash as they do at Sarries et al. We could be a good prospect.
We need good relationships with Cov RFC, that is essential.
The CCFC are going to do their thing. If it ends up in more litigation, then we won't win the info war with the casuals as described on the article. For some CCFC fans, it is like arguing with 5G causes Covid types, nothing will change their mind as to their entitlement to the stadium they bizzarely dud not end up owning.
Others might be more circumspect, but they won't turn up. We need to offer a fun family day out, and attract all those who don't go to CCFC. There will be some CCFC sports fans who might enjoy us, but only with a better product.
On the playing front, and I know I sound like a broken record, but nobody expects fans to pay for an unexciting product. Watching weekly ten to fifteen phases of bosh on their line whilst our backs hang around like wet farts on a Christmas tree for half the game is not going to bring back the crowds. Losing 36-35, as long as next week we win, will. No pound shop Tigers, no aerial tennis fests. Those things are part of a rounded game plan, they are not a game plan in themselves that will work for us. There are two points available weekly for tries and losing bonus. You can literally get 48 points without winning a match.
-
I suddenly feel sick.
-
Is there reason to believe that Paul Smith left Wasps on bad terms?
-
Some good points coming out.
In terms of the "hearts and minds" piece, I think there may have been an underestimation of the length of time required to really embed into the area and develop the support base. The links with local clubs and schools feeding players into the DPP and Academy systems, and the emergence of Coventry-grown talent will engage and resonate more with the local fans over time.
Also, building up local rivalries doesn't happen overnight. The football rivalry between Coventry and Leicester (the M69 derby) is well established, but the Wasps v Leicester match doesn't yet have the same feel. The traditional rivalry with Harlequins is still the big one - and should remain so, we started off as the same club, after all.
Agree wholeheartedly with the views of hopwood and WestWalesWasp that playing exciting, ambitious rugby is important. Entertainment is key, as is the whole matchday experience - particularly for families. Been a big fan of the "Christmas Cracker" games over the past few years (although can't remember us winning one....) for a good day out in the dark mid-winter.
-
but the Wasps v Leicester match doesn't yet have the same feel.
Wasps v Tigers was always fiercely contested in the AP days. The two clubs were at the top of the tree for a number of years.
-
Wasps v Tigers was always fiercly contested in the AP days. The two clubs were at the top of the tree for a number of years.
Agree, but it wasn't a local derby then :)
-
There may have been some "difference of opinion" when Paul left, not sure really, but he is a Freelance Journalist (or certainly was for a while after he left) so articles of this nature (and certainly the headline) will get him noticed I guess?
I think he does also work with/for Coventry Rugby as well (reports and match day commentaries I think)?
I have loads of respect for him and he does at times have strong opinions (which he absolutely entitled to) and the article is correct factually I would think, but you can take different views on different aspects as well.
It will certainly take time for Wasps to keep developing the local fanbase, but the recent Academy promotions and the building of the Training Centre are strong bases to work from in my opinion.
The return of Ash is just another part of this as well.
Personally I'd prefer to pay to see Wasps developed players with a real feel for what the club is about performing well at first team and International level (hopefully) than a team full of overseas players that don't always perform to their perceived "value" every week.
A good blend and mix is what we all want to see I think, but I am excited about some of Wasps' young players coming through alongside a couple of "gnarled old pro's" up front.
-
but the Wasps v Leicester match doesn't yet have the same feel.
Wasps v Tigers was always fiercly contested in the AP days. The two clubs were at the top of the tree for a number of years.
Quins and Irish always had that geographical rivalry, but i'd always say Tigers felt like the bigger game.
-
but the Wasps v Leicester match doesn't yet have the same feel.
Wasps v Tigers was always fiercly contested in the AP days. The two clubs were at the top of the tree for a number of years.
Quins and Irish always had that geographical rivalry, but i'd always say Tigers felt like the bigger game.
I'd say the rivalry between us and Tigers doesn't feel as big a deal as it used to at AP. It used to be two teams at the top of the game battling it out for supremacy. Now it's just a local thing and in reality one or the other of us has ben struggling a lot over the last few years.
-
One of our Foundations has been shut down.
But I have no idea if that is of any relevance…or part of a newer plan.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-62563158
-
One of our Foundations has been shut down.
But I have no idea if that is of any relevance…or part of a newer plan.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-62563158
It was struck off for not filing accounts. Controversy is about still being able to donate to a non existent charity via Wasps website. Wasps saying that hasn’t happened, but according to Simon Gilbert donations can still be made. Charity commission looking into it.
-
Such a ray of sunlight, may your star burn brightly tonight
-
Such a ray of sunlight, may your star burn brightly tonight
It’s not my fault that storm clouds are gathering over Wasps with little sign, as yet, of any silver linings.
-
Coventry City and Wasps reach breakthrough in CBS Arena talks.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-wasps-stadium-pitch-24775651
According to Coventry Telegraph and Andy Street sorted until "at least the end of the season" - no real details though?
-
Coventry City and Wasps reach breakthrough in CBS Arena talks.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-wasps-stadium-pitch-24775651
According to Coventry Telegraph and Andy Street sorted until "at least the end of the season" - no real details though?
Blimey do you think Wasps have bought Coventry City?
-
Coventry City and Wasps reach breakthrough in CBS Arena talks.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-wasps-stadium-pitch-24775651 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-wasps-stadium-pitch-24775651)
According to Coventry Telegraph and Andy Street sorted until "at least the end of the season" - no real details though?
Blimey do you think Wasps have bought Coventry City?
I'm assuming that was tongue in cheek, but it certainly made me laugh this morning.
It would be good to know what agreement they've reached.
It sounds like the pitch is in such a state that it's not safe to even walk up and down carrying a flag or whistle.
If that's the case there's no quick/easy solution, short of ripping it out and starting again.
I wonder if we'll ever find out
-
I'd like to think that Mr. Street just told CCFC to shut up moaning and that they had unrealistic expectations of being able to play so soon after the CG 7s.
Realistically I suspect there has been some commitment to a reduction in rent - or at least a deferral until the games can be played.
Either way, a reduction in hostilities has to be a good thing.
-
Blimey do you think Wasps have bought Coventry City?
:D :D
-
I'd like to think that Mr. Street just told CCFC to shut up moaning and that they had unrealistic expectations of being able to play so soon after the CG 7s.
Realistically I suspect there has been some commitment to a reduction in rent - or at least a deferral until the games can be played.
Either way, a reduction in hostilities has to be a good thing.
I suspect Wasps have been told to adhere to terms of the contract and there should be a deferral until games resume.
-
Coventry City and Wasps reach breakthrough in CBS Arena talks.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-wasps-stadium-pitch-24775651
According to Coventry Telegraph and Andy Street sorted until "at least the end of the season" - no real details though?
Blimey do you think Wasps have bought Coventry City?
No, it would have been far too great a leap of faith that Wasps won’t have gone bust by the end of the season even for Andy Street.
-
Now now Sam don’t let your bitterness creep in - it was only a lighthearted comment. I should ask - what do you think the natural consequence is if Wasps did go pop. Your owners don’t want the stadium. The council don’t. You’d be back on the phone to Northampton/Birmingham/Burton.
-
Now now Sam don’t let your bitterness creep in - it was only a lighthearted comment. I should ask - what do you think the natural consequence is if Wasps did go pop. Your owners don’t want the stadium. The council don’t. You’d be back on the phone to Northampton/Birmingham/Burton.
TBH Shugs, mine was only a tongue in cheek comment as well.
The council would have no choice about it and would have at least one tenant.
It’s been some time since CCFC had suggested they don’t want the stadium, and anyway things change.
There’s always the possibility of a third party although not convinced by Simon Jordan’s comments .
-
My thought is that that particular scenario is more about self promotion than anything else.
-
Now now Sam don’t let your bitterness creep in - it was only a lighthearted comment. I should ask - what do you think the natural consequence is if Wasps did go pop. Your owners don’t want the stadium. The council don’t. You’d be back on the phone to Northampton/Birmingham/Burton.
That defies all logic. The value of the stadium to anyone is the fact it has a football club in it with over 20,000 attending games 23 times a year.
The council will have the lease in the short term like it or not and they will have the football club as tenants. The notion the club will move is not tenable in those circumstances. Its ACL anyway who would manage the sub-lease
In an administration of ACL there will be plenty trying to purchase as the loan will be wiped and essentially its a debt free operation
-
Yes, the football club would have 15-20k coming in. But they will be taking the cash for that. The council would, in essence, just be collecting a rent and maybe a % of food etc. On the flip side they have to run the stadium with all the costs that brings. Add to that the fact that they don’t get on well with the football club and it’s not a palatable scenario for them. The football club certainly don’t want to own it and virtually said as much as recently as a couple of weeks ago. So CCFC’s best hope is that things carry on as they are.
-
Now now Sam don’t let your bitterness creep in - it was only a lighthearted comment. I should ask - what do you think the natural consequence is if Wasps did go pop. Your owners don’t want the stadium. The council don’t. You’d be back on the phone to Northampton/Birmingham/Burton.
If it is just because of the debt burden, as opposed to be able to fund the daily operations, there's a good chance the administrator sells the club for a price that means it can continue as a going concern and the secured creditors walk away with whatever they can. This has to be a better deal than liquidating the assets because, to be brutal, who is going to buy the players at "market value" and what is the Wasps brand worth as a standalone entity?
-
Yes, sorry BIND. I ought to qualify by saying I don’t think that will happen (Wasps going pop). I was putting the question to Sam to address the common narrative amongst quite a number of CCFC fans (not necessarily Sam) that equates wasps leaving with CCFC owning or continuing to play in the stadium.
-
Now now Sam don’t let your bitterness creep in - it was only a lighthearted comment. I should ask - what do you think the natural consequence is if Wasps did go pop. Your owners don’t want the stadium. The council don’t. You’d be back on the phone to Northampton/Birmingham/Burton.
If it is just because of the debt burden, as opposed to be able to fund the daily operations, there's a good chance the administrator sells the club for a price that means it can continue as a going concern and the secured creditors walk away with whatever they can. This has to be a better deal than liquidating the assets because, to be brutal, who is going to buy the players at "market value" and what is the Wasps brand worth as a standalone entity?
I’m not sure there would be a lot left after the bond holders have taken what was offers as security - basically everything including proceeds from sale of P shares.
Taken from the bonds prospectus -
The security includes a legal mortgage (explained in more detail below) granted by ACL and ACL2006 over their title to the Arena in Coventry, a mortgage over the whole share capital of ACL, a mortgage over the whole share capital of ACL2006, fixed charges over insurance policies held by ACL and ACL2006 in respect of the Arena, a fixed charge over a cash account (described in more detail below) (the “Interest Service Reserve Account”) to be opened by the Issuer on or prior to the Issue Date, and a floating charge over all of the other undertaking and assets, both present and future, of each of the Issuer, the Guarantors and ACL2006. In addition, if the “P-Shares” (as defined below), held by Wasps Holdings are ever sold prior to the maturity date of the Bonds, then the cash proceeds of the sale at such time are required to be paid into a designated bank account opened by Wasps Holdings with the Account Bank and secured by way of a fixed charge for the benefit of the Trustee, the paying agents under the Bonds, the Account Bank and the Bondholders. For the avoidance of doubt, the Trustee is not permitted to force the sale of the P-Shares (even following an event of default (as described under the heading “Events of Default” below)), because the P-Shares themselves do not form part of the secured assets – only the proceeds of their sale would form part of the secured assets. If the P-Shares are never sold by Wasps Holdings during the life of the Bonds, Wasps Holdings will not receive cash purchase monies in respect of them during the life of the Bonds.
-
Yes, sorry BIND. I ought to qualify by saying I don’t think that will happen (Wasps going pop). I was putting the question to Sam to address the common narrative amongst quite a number of CCFC fans (not necessarily Sam) that equates wasps leaving with CCFC owning or continuing to play in the stadium.
I think CCFC would continue to play at the stadium for the duration of their current tenancy. CCC would have to accept it if the head lease returns to them, a third party buyer (just use AEG as an example) would have the benefit of at least one tenant. Whether Wasps would survive as a Premier team is open to debate, all the family silver is at risk to the bondholders.
Genuinely don’t know if CCFC would be interested in ownership at the right price. The alleged plans for the unicorn stadium are much smaller than CBS Arena which might suggest they don’t want all the peripherals and associated overheads. And anyway, it wouldn’t be CCFC that actually owned it but another SISU subsidiary charging a rent.
CCC would be in a difficult place but the political optics are probably a bit different to 10 years ago.
-
Yes, the football club would have 15-20k coming in. But they will be taking the cash for that. The council would, in essence, just be collecting a rent and maybe a % of food etc. On the flip side they have to run the stadium with all the costs that brings. Add to that the fact that they don’t get on well with the football club and it’s not a palatable scenario for them. The football club certainly don’t want to own it and virtually said as much as recently as a couple of weeks ago. So CCFC’s best hope is that things carry on as they are.
Sorry this is just not correct
You seem confused with the Head Lease and ACL
ACL will not be owned by the Council. ACL will be in administration and run by administrators until a buyer is actually found.
The rent is paid to ACL
The council will have the lease returned to them and would obviously then seek to sell the Head Lease back to the new owner of ACL 2006 LTD.
You make too much of this. When wasps crash and burn the loan goes with it. It would then attract IEC type organisations or owners who want a potential Premier League Football Club
Wasps are a small company and cannot manage a stadium of this diveristy - it lacks expertise and finance - it would be better having someone with that experience now for all parties and the City of Cioventry
-
Now now Sam don’t let your bitterness creep in - it was only a lighthearted comment. I should ask - what do you think the natural consequence is if Wasps did go pop. Your owners don’t want the stadium. The council don’t. You’d be back on the phone to Northampton/Birmingham/Burton.
If it is just because of the debt burden, as opposed to be able to fund the daily operations, there's a good chance the administrator sells the club for a price that means it can continue as a going concern and the secured creditors walk away with whatever they can. This has to be a better deal than liquidating the assets because, to be brutal, who is going to buy the players at "market value" and what is the Wasps brand worth as a standalone entity?
I’m not sure there would be a lot left after the bond holders have taken what was offers as security - basically everything including proceeds from sale of P shares.
Taken from the bonds prospectus -
intentionally deleted to save space
Apologies, I obviously didn't make my point clearly.
There seems to be an expectation in some quarters that if Wasps "go bust", that is go in to administration, they will be immediately shut down, the Rugby team disappears and CCFC get to be sole users of the stadium.
If they go in to administration, the point I made, the courts will protect the business while the administrator tries to find a solution that satisfies the creditors and keep the business running. At this point the bondholders are just another creditor, albeit a senior one who I agree will likely get most of the proceeds when the administrator either sells the business or liquidates it. There is a ranking of debt seniority, with Wasps Holdings shareholders being at the very bottom, as it should be.
Of course there are circumstances where they would be immediately shut down, the players and staff sent home and all operations stopped*: if the cash flows are obviously not enough to cover day to day operations and don't look like they ever will and the financial situation will only get worse, but nobody has said that is the case and if that is the case the Directors are currently trading fraudulently, unless they have made personal pledges, AIUI.
*I've been in that situation, receiving the (expected) call from the administrator as I sat in Heathrow airport on the way to see a client, its quite a brutal process and if it happened someone would in to the business and tell everyone to go home, or more likely they'd receive texts telling them not to come to work because it would happen at 6am.
-
Yes, sorry BIND. I ought to qualify by saying I don’t think that will happen (Wasps going pop). I was putting the question to Sam to address the common narrative amongst quite a number of CCFC fans (not necessarily Sam) that equates wasps leaving with CCFC owning or continuing to play in the stadium.
My fault Shugs, as you were the latest to talk about it I used your post as the reference, I didn't mean to imply you thought they would.
-
Now now Sam don’t let your bitterness creep in - it was only a lighthearted comment. I should ask - what do you think the natural consequence is if Wasps did go pop. Your owners don’t want the stadium. The council don’t. You’d be back on the phone to Northampton/Birmingham/Burton.
If it is just because of the debt burden, as opposed to be able to fund the daily operations, there's a good chance the administrator sells the club for a price that means it can continue as a going concern and the secured creditors walk away with whatever they can. This has to be a better deal than liquidating the assets because, to be brutal, who is going to buy the players at "market value" and what is the Wasps brand worth as a standalone entity?
I’m not sure there would be a lot left after the bond holders have taken what was offers as security - basically everything including proceeds from sale of P shares.
Taken from the bonds prospectus -
intentionally deleted to save space
Apologies, I obviously didn't make my point clearly.
There seems to be an expectation in some quarters that if Wasps "go bust", that is go in to administration, they will be immediately shut down, the Rugby team disappears and CCFC get to be sole users of the stadium.
If they go in to administration, the point I made, the courts will protect the business while the administrator tries to find a solution that satisfies the creditors and keep the business running. At this point the bondholders are just another creditor, albeit a senior one who I agree will likely get most of the proceeds when the administrator either sells the business or liquidates it. There is a ranking of debt seniority, with Wasps Holdings shareholders being at the very bottom, as it should be.
Of course there are circumstances where they would be immediately shut down, the players and staff sent home and all operations stopped*: if the cash flows are obviously not enough to cover day to day operations and don't look like they ever will and the financial situation will only get worse, but nobody has said that is the case and if that is the case the Directors are currently trading fraudulently, unless they have made personal pledges, AIUI.
*I've been in that situation, receiving the (expected) call from the administrator as I sat in Heathrow airport on the way to see a client, its quite a brutal process and if it happened someone would in to the business and tell everyone to go home, or more likely they'd receive texts telling them not to come to work because it would happen at 6am.
Out of genuine interest, have you read the binds prospectus? It looks to me as if the bondholders get everything to sell. I also guess it all depends who triggers administration. Presumably it wouldn’t be Wasps because Richardson has said it’s not going to happen.
It seems that Wasps finance owe the money to bondholders and that Wasps finance are, in turn, owed that sum by ACL. I suppose WF can call in administration and hence have control a bit like how SISU orchestrated their situation. It’s all very complicated.
-
Now now Sam don’t let your bitterness creep in - it was only a lighthearted comment. I should ask - what do you think the natural consequence is if Wasps did go pop. Your owners don’t want the stadium. The council don’t. You’d be back on the phone to Northampton/Birmingham/Burton.
If it is just because of the debt burden, as opposed to be able to fund the daily operations, there's a good chance the administrator sells the club for a price that means it can continue as a going concern and the secured creditors walk away with whatever they can. This has to be a better deal than liquidating the assets because, to be brutal, who is going to buy the players at "market value" and what is the Wasps brand worth as a standalone entity?
I’m not sure there would be a lot left after the bond holders have taken what was offers as security - basically everything including proceeds from sale of P shares.
Taken from the bonds prospectus -
intentionally deleted to save space
Apologies, I obviously didn't make my point clearly.
There seems to be an expectation in some quarters that if Wasps "go bust", that is go in to administration, they will be immediately shut down, the Rugby team disappears and CCFC get to be sole users of the stadium.
If they go in to administration, the point I made, the courts will protect the business while the administrator tries to find a solution that satisfies the creditors and keep the business running. At this point the bondholders are just another creditor, albeit a senior one who I agree will likely get most of the proceeds when the administrator either sells the business or liquidates it. There is a ranking of debt seniority, with Wasps Holdings shareholders being at the very bottom, as it should be.
Of course there are circumstances where they would be immediately shut down, the players and staff sent home and all operations stopped*: if the cash flows are obviously not enough to cover day to day operations and don't look like they ever will and the financial situation will only get worse, but nobody has said that is the case and if that is the case the Directors are currently trading fraudulently, unless they have made personal pledges, AIUI.
*I've been in that situation, receiving the (expected) call from the administrator as I sat in Heathrow airport on the way to see a client, its quite a brutal process and if it happened someone would in to the business and tell everyone to go home, or more likely they'd receive texts telling them not to come to work because it would happen at 6am.
Out of genuine interest, have you read the binds prospectus? It looks to me as if the bondholders get everything to sell. I also guess it all depends who triggers administration. Presumably it wouldn’t be Wasps because Richardson has said it’s not going to happen.
It seems that Wasps finance owe the money to bondholders and that Wasps finance are, in turn, owed that sum by ACL. I suppose WF can call in administration and hence have control a bit like how SISU orchestrated their situation. It’s all very complicated.
That was my point, if the directors put it in to administration or other creditors ask the courts do do it cf HMRC with Worcester then there is a legal process.
Until then, AIUI, Wasps can’t pay off other junior creditors until the bond has been paid off.
-
Yes, the football club would have 15-20k coming in. But they will
be taking the cash for that. The council would, in essence, just be collecting a rent and maybe a % of food etc. On the flip side they have to run the stadium with all the costs that brings. Add to that the fact that they don’t get on well with the football club and it’s not a palatable scenario for them. The football club certainly don’t want to own it and virtually said as much as recently as a couple of weeks ago. So CCFC’s best hope is that things carry on as they are.
Sorry this is just not correct
You seem confused with the Head Lease and ACL
ACL will not be owned by the Council. ACL will be in administration and run by administrators until a buyer is actually found.
The rent is paid to ACL
The council will have the lease returned to them and would obviously then seek to sell the Head Lease back to the new owner of ACL 2006 LTD.
You make too much of this. When wasps crash and burn the loan goes with it. It would then attract IEC type organisations or owners who want a potential Premier League Football Club
Wasps are a small company and cannot manage a stadium of this diveristy - it lacks expertise and finance - it would be better having someone with that experience now for all parties and the City of Cioventry
And the buyer got ACL is?
-
Now now Sam don’t let your bitterness creep in - it was only a lighthearted comment. I should ask - what do you think the natural consequence is if Wasps did go pop. Your owners don’t want the stadium. The council don’t. You’d be back on the phone to Northampton/Birmingham/Burton.
If it is just because of the debt burden, as opposed to be able to fund the daily operations, there's a good chance the administrator sells the club for a price that means it can continue as a going concern and the secured creditors walk away with whatever they can. This has to be a better deal than liquidating the assets because, to be brutal, who is going to buy the players at "market value" and what is the Wasps brand worth as a standalone entity?
I’m not sure there would be a lot left after the bond holders have taken what was offers as security - basically everything including proceeds from sale of P shares.
Taken from the bonds prospectus -
intentionally deleted to save space
Apologies, I obviously didn't make my point clearly.
There seems to be an expectation in some quarters that if Wasps "go bust", that is go in to administration, they will be immediately shut down, the Rugby team disappears and CCFC get to be sole users of the stadium.
If they go in to administration, the point I made, the courts will protect the business while the administrator tries to find a solution that satisfies the creditors and keep the business running. At this point the bondholders are just another creditor, albeit a senior one who I agree will likely get most of the proceeds when the administrator either sells the business or liquidates it. There is a ranking of debt seniority, with Wasps Holdings shareholders being at the very bottom, as it should be.
Of course there are circumstances where they would be immediately shut down, the players and staff sent home and all operations stopped*: if the cash flows are obviously not enough to cover day to day operations and don't look like they ever will and the financial situation will only get worse, but nobody has said that is the case and if that is the case the Directors are currently trading fraudulently, unless they have made personal pledges, AIUI.
*I've been in that situation, receiving the (expected) call from the administrator as I sat in Heathrow airport on the way to see a client, its quite a brutal process and if it happened someone would in to the business and tell everyone to go home, or more likely they'd receive texts telling them not to come to work because it would happen at 6am.
Out of genuine interest, have you read the binds prospectus? It looks to me as if the bondholders get everything to sell. I also guess it all depends who triggers administration. Presumably it wouldn’t be Wasps because Richardson has said it’s not going to happen.
It seems that Wasps finance owe the money to bondholders and that Wasps finance are, in turn, owed that sum by ACL. I suppose WF can call in administration and hence have control a bit like how SISU orchestrated their situation. It’s all very complicated.
That was my point, if the directors put it in to administration or other creditors ask the courts do do it cf HMRC with Worcester then there is a legal process.
Until then, AIUI, Wasps can’t pay off other junior creditors until the bond has been paid off.
I think that’s right, but the bondholders could get in first and just take possession of everything for onward sale.
-
But would the bondholders be able to organise and execute that sort of thing quickly enough? Surely if there was any sniff of that then the directors would move first to protect themselves to some degree...or maybe I'm being naïve?
-
Yes, the football club would have 15-20k coming in. But they will
be taking the cash for that. The council would, in essence, just be collecting a rent and maybe a % of food etc. On the flip side they have to run the stadium with all the costs that brings. Add to that the fact that they don’t get on well with the football club and it’s not a palatable scenario for them. The football club certainly don’t want to own it and virtually said as much as recently as a couple of weeks ago. So CCFC’s best hope is that things carry on as they are.
Sorry this is just not correct
You seem confused with the Head Lease and ACL
ACL will not be owned by the Council. ACL will be in administration and run by administrators until a buyer is actually found.
The rent is paid to ACL
The council will have the lease returned to them and would obviously then seek to sell the Head Lease back to the new owner of ACL 2006 LTD.
You make too much of this. When wasps crash and burn the loan goes with it. It would then attract IEC type organisations or owners who want a potential Premier League Football Club
Wasps are a small company and cannot manage a stadium of this diveristy - it lacks expertise and finance - it would be better having someone with that experience now for all parties and the City of Cioventry
And the buyer got ACL is?
The original deal says that the head lease returns to the council, and this is pointed out by the bonds prospectus alongside saying this would be challengeable in the courts. That original condition could put off traditional finance houses from refinancing as the process for crystallising that as security might not be straightforward. Who knows who would end up with ACL.
-
But would the bondholders be able to organise and execute that sort of thing quickly enough? Surely if there was any sniff of that then the directors would move first to protect themselves to some degree...or maybe I'm being naïve?
I honestly don’t know, but if it is possible it would seem to make the bondholders security somewhat flakey.
-
But would the bondholders be able to organise and execute that sort of thing quickly enough? Surely if there was any sniff of that then the directors would move first to protect themselves to some degree...or maybe I'm being naïve?
I honestly don’t know, but if it is possible it would seem to make the bondholders security somewhat flakey.
i think the bond holders would have to go through the courts, same as HMRC with Worcester. I’m speculating now, but there would have to be some large proportion of bond holders that approve the move because it would mean they risk losing their capital.
-
That’s my point Sam - ACL/Council don’t want it. It’s a fairly niche usage thing. Anyway, I think it’s moot - Wasps bond will get worked out.
-
But would the bondholders be able to organise and execute that sort of thing quickly enough? Surely if there was any sniff of that then the directors would move first to protect themselves to some degree...or maybe I'm being naïve?
I honestly don’t know, but if it is possible it would seem to make the bondholders security somewhat flakey.
i think the bond holders would have to go through the courts, same as HMRC with Worcester. I’m speculating now, but there would have to be some large proportion of bond holders that approve the move because it would mean they risk losing their capital.
As the redemption date has passed and no variation been approved, just 25% of bondholders by value could force foreclosure.
-
That’s my point Sam - ACL/Council don’t want it. It’s a fairly niche usage thing. Anyway, I think it’s moot - Wasps bond will get worked out.
I really don’t understand what you are trying to say about ACL / Council - particularly ACL. Unless you have some insider information I am surprised at your confidence about the bonds. I know this is repetitive, but you thought it would be resolved in a few weeks. If this was CCFC I would be quite worried.