Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Mellie on March 01, 2021, 02:30:19 PM
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There has been a lot of discussion in the media about the unfairness of Josh Adam's try and the decision by Pascal Gauzerre. There are a number of perspectives that have not been raised though.
Wales did not indicate they would kick for goal so nobody should have switched off. At the time I assumed Wales were kicking for goal since the England players formed a huddle and water carriers came on. At no time did Farrell enquire about the goal kick or when time was back on.
If the ref had allowed water carriers to come on then he had a duty to get them off before restarting play. But I think they came on uninvited under an assumption of a kick at goal. I think the England team assumed that too.
Since the ref had called time off after awarding the penalty it denied Wales a chance to profit for a quick penalty. To be fair why should an offending team benefit from an offence? Normally it is acceptable to take quick penalties to take advantage of a disorganised defence and Dan Robson is often praised for this.
Dan Biggar was very canny for realising England had switched off. He could be heard clearly over the ref mic asking to be told when time was back on. I think this put a bit of pressure on the ref to do so.
To be fair to England Gauzerre should have turned round and told them that he was putting time back on. But they were away with the fairies and would have received a distinct advantage if he had delayed play until they had fully lined up their defence. It was up to England to be more aware.
The Welsh execution was superb and demonstrated clear thinking, unlike England.
Farrell had a point when speaking to the ref but he and his side had not endeared themselves with the ref who was clearly getting annoyed by their constant infringing. He should probably have just said on awarding the penalty 'too many penalties, next one goes to the bin' instead of 'talk to your team'. That way play could have restarted immediately.
For the number of penalties conceded England were fortunate not to receive a yellow card. Itoje most of all for his 5 individual indiscretions.
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In today's Telegraph about the two tries "Joël Jutge, World Rugby’s Head of Match Officials, says Pascal Gauzere has acknowledged to him that he got both contentious first-half incidents wrong in Saturday’s Six Nations clash between Wales and England."
Also on RugbyPass https://www.rugbypass.com/news/head-of-referees-says-gauzere-has-admitted-he-got-big-calls-wrong-in-wales-defeat-of-england/
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England switched off for Wales' first try. They and their captain just assumed that Wales would go for the posts. Farrell could have inquired of the ref if Wales had opted for the posts but he didn't. It is not for the ref to dispel that assumption. That is a captaincy failure and you all know what happens when you assume.............. :-[ To me it was perfectly fair but infuriating if you are English.
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The horse has bolted. Now irrelevant. The game is over. Result stands.
The only thing that might come out of it is that Gauzeres get stood down from the WR panel.
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It was a terrible piece of refereeing for me. Farrell is obviously addressing the team after his chat with Gauzerre. Referee calls time on knowing that and doesn't have the guts to admit his mistake.
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I agree. England were only in a huddle because the ref had told Farrell to go and talk to his team. He then let Wales re-start play without letting Farrell finish doing what he had specifically been instructed to do.
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I'm not saying the ref didn't make a mistake but that England were negligent and Wales were smart.
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I'm not saying the ref didn't make a mistake but that England were negligent and Wales were smart.
I agree 100%.
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For me, there are three questions:
1) Should the try have stood?
2) Was the Ref correct to call time on?
3) Did Farrell screw up by calling the England squad into a huddle?
To the first question, Wales hadn't said that they were going for goal, the kicking tee wasn't on the pitch, time was called on, the ball was kicked from the mark, Josh Adams was onside and the grounding was good. Therefore there were no grounds to disallow the try.
With regards to calling time on, I think this happens more that we realise in this situation. Does the defensive line need to be set for kicks to the corner? I think the ref called time on expecting Wales to kick to the corner and was caught off guard, but as time was on, couldn't disallow the try. I expect a World Rugby directive to be released this week about when time on should be called to prevent this in future.
With regards to the third question, in my view, you should never switch off and go into a huddle when defending in your 22. I can't recall Dallaglio ever doing that. When a ref told him to speak to his players he would shout at them but leave them in the defensive line.
I do wonder how much of Farrell's reaction was down to how Eddie runs the England set up. I can't imagine him or Ford ever doing what Biggar did because Jones has them so regimented that they'd be dropped if they did regardless of the outcome (think Cipriani and May's try in the third test v South Africa in 2018).
In all honesty I've never understood why more sides don't do what Wales did if they have a chance. Had Jacob done the same thing and set up a match winning try on Saturday for Josh, I'd have been thrilled. Nothing wrong with being sneaky.
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I wouldn't be at all surprised if Farrell called everyone in with the aim of slowing the game down a bit and disrupting Wales while they were in an attacking position.
The referee had told him to speak to his players. Normally that's little more than a look around the pitch, but I think Farrell was trying to be clever by calling everyone in.
It seemed like a safe way to buy a minute or 2 to compose themselves.
No one could have considered that the ref would allow play to restart before the team has reset following the directive from him.
I think the try should have been awarded because it was legal
But I also think the ref screwed it up.
Farrell also takes some blame because sometimes when you're trying to be too clever it'll come back and bite you
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I'm not saying the ref didn't make a mistake but that England were negligent and Wales were smart.
+1
If you look at the incident in the camera shot from behind Biggar you can see England's' left side defence all getting quickly in to place, Daly was where he should be. The rights side were dawdling and it wasn't until the ref blew that Ford looked over his shoulder and started to get a move on, far too late.
I also think its time for the captaincy to be given to someone else, probably in the pack. I say this as a Yorkshireman, but Farrell's accent and tone of voice is obviously winding up referees and added to the fact that he's so far away he has to go running after them to make a point, that never looks good.
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Daly was where he should be.
First time for everything...
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Very surprised at the number of people saying England are at fault here. The ref specifically asks Farrell to talk to his players about the penalties, and even puts time off to do so. This is a clear indication he wants it done properly, not shouting "no more pens" as you jog back. Therefore, Farrell would be negligent in not clearly communicating to all players about what the ref asked, hence he needed to call everyone into a huddle. The ref then gives them no warning before putting time back on. Its ludicrous. The way he refuses to justify he decision to Farrell after and just jogs off shows he knows he has done wrong but can't reverse the decision.
If this would have happened to Wasps not one poster on here would be saying we were to blame.
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Daly was where he should be.
First time for everything...
As the Captain was passing on the message to the team that they must role away quicker from the tackle, Daly assumed he didn’t need to listen as he doesn’t make any tackles.
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Listening back to the incident, the conversation between Biggar and Gauzere was deliberately hushed. Biggar understandably so, and it's a question he's entitled to ask, but Gauzere should have told him "No, time is off and I will tell you when it's back on", instead, he quietly said to him "Yeah, go on then, this should be funny" (not his exact words, but that was essentially it).
Farrell speaking to his team as instructed is fair enough and he should have been given the time to do that properly, but what was the water doing on? I agree that Farrell sought to use it as an opportunity to slow things down, and the water was brought on to do exactly that and deny Wales the opportunity to go quickly. England got caught out as a result of an opportunistic moment arising from their own gamesmanship so they are not entirely blameless.
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I know that Farrell is despised on this board- with pretty good reason- but he was blameless on this occasion. It was one of the most appalling pieces of game management from an official that I've ever witnessed in an international match and has been universally condemned as such by everyone including the likes of ex-Welsh captain Sam Warburton and Welsh referee Nigel Owens.
Farrell was told to speak to his players and that time was off for him to do so. To suggest that he should have been ready for a quick penalty and "switched of" is nonsense. The moment Gauzerre told him to speak to his team he should not have allowed a "quick" penalty. Gauzerre's actions are nothing short of disgraceful, Biggar is asking him when time is back on, Gauzerre must have been aware what he wanted to do, he looks round, sees that Farrell has finished talking to the team, ignores the fact that they are all still under the posts completely out of position and re-starts play. It actually looks like a deliberate act to favour Wales whether or not that was the case.
Gauzerre's actions after the score compound his terrible management, Farrell is justifiably furious. Gauzerre tells him "I will speak first", to his credit, Farrell stops talking, Gauzerre then tells him that he had plenty of time to reset- a complete fabrication- then walks away refusing to listen to Farrell, the England team captain. Incredible.
The score stands because there was nothing illegal and the referee is the sole arbiter of fact on the pitch. Doesn't mean that it doesn't stink and has cast a dark cloud over the standard of refereeing in world Rugby.
England didn't deserve to win the match, their discipline was dreadful although the two tries were not the only debatable decisions during the match. Having seen Jones' predictably dull selection of out of form players (including Farrell) I had Wales to win a close contest which it may well have been had Wales not been gifted a 14 point head start.
What is a pity is that on the rare occasions Gauzerre actually allowed some rugby to take place, England looked far better in attack than they have for some time. There was pace, quick ball, good movement in support and they scored two decent tries. All that will of course be totally overshadowed by the ludicrous penalty count.
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I thought waterboys were on for both sides.
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I agree the referee's game management was poor.
Having thought about this, the way it could be dealt with equitably is for referees not to call time off at all. It is not really the referee's place to get the captain to have a team talk. All players know what happens if they keep offending. The ref just needs to say 'next one goes to the bin' as a warning. This then still gives the non-offending team the chance of a quick play.
If a captain really wants a team talk they should be able to request this when there is a genuine stoppage and time is already off. At that point the ref asks both teams if they are ready before putting time back on.
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Poor refereeing. That said, while not quite the same, I don't recall being quite so outraged at Dobby's quick tap penalty vs Bristol earlier this season...
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I agree the referee's game management was poor.
Having thought about this, the way it could be dealt with equitably is for referees not to call time off at all. It is not really the referee's place to get the captain to have a team talk. All players know what happens if they keep offending. The ref just needs to say 'next one goes to the bin' as a warning. This then still gives the non-offending team the chance of a quick play.
If a captain really wants a team talk they should be able to request this when there is a genuine stoppage and time is already off. At that point the ref asks both teams if they are ready before putting time back on.
I can't claim to have refereed at International level but if I ever signalled time off and instructed a captain to talk to his team which I did fairly often, it's good management and often effective if the team has a decent skipper (i.e. not Owen Farrell), I would wait for an acknowledgement from said captain that they were ready before restarting the clock and resuming play. I treated it in exactly the same way as the start of the match when you always check with both captains for starting the game. You would occasionally speak to a captain and they would indeed ask for time to talk to their team which you'd manage in exactly the same way. Really not rocket science, there are far more difficult aspects of refereeing a rugby match which is why it is so extraordinary that a referee appointed to an international made such a Horlicks of it.
You can't draw comparisons with Dobby's try against Bristol as at no point had time off been called. Having said that, we'd be fuming if it happened against us.
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https://twitter.com/andrewfrugby/status/1367064841706430464?s=19
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https://twitter.com/andrewfrugby/status/1367064841706430464?s=19
😀😀😀
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This is a good analysis of not just this incident but the whole game by Squidge Rugby, bit of Welsh bias but very insightful particularly the last bit around England lineouts.
https://youtu.be/K6rIMLowoJI
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I know that Farrell is despised on this board- with pretty good reason- but he was blameless on this occasion. It was one of the most appalling pieces of game management from an official that I've ever witnessed in an international match and has been universally condemned as such by everyone including the likes of ex-Welsh captain Sam Warburton and Welsh referee Nigel Owens.
Agreed! The anti-England bias totally blind here.
I suspect I’m as bored by England stagnating in both style of play and selection and even more bored of the rhetoric coming out from the camp that everything is fine and they’re training well, but it doesn’t mean everything that happens to them is deserved, or their fault.
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This is a good analysis of not just this incident but the whole game by Squidge Rugby, bit of Welsh bias but very insightful particularly the last bit around England lineouts.
https://youtu.be/K6rIMLowoJI
Nobody seems to have noted that Ford made contact with Adams whilst he was in the air illegally. Had Adams not grounded it, it would have been a penalty try.
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This is a good analysis of not just this incident but the whole game by Squidge Rugby, bit of Welsh bias but very insightful particularly the last bit around England lineouts.
https://youtu.be/K6rIMLowoJI
Very interesting piece - the lineout issue confirms England's strategies in recent times. Kick to the opposition, pressure the the catcher, get them to kick ball off park. Lineout....and with most England tries coming from lineouts, Wales sensibly kept the ball on the park, making England think.
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This is a good analysis of not just this incident but the whole game by Squidge Rugby, bit of Welsh bias but very insightful particularly the last bit around England lineouts.
https://youtu.be/K6rIMLowoJI
Best analysis I've ever seen and very humorous too.
So jammy Wales are not quite as strawberry looking as they seem 😄
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Squidge is amazing, highly recommend checking out all his videos