Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Neils on July 25, 2022, 07:30:23 AM
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RUGBY IN THE DOCK: Brain-damaged former stars launch lawsuit https://mol.im/a/11044491 via https://dailym.ai/android
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https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/25/case-against-rugby-union-governing-bodies-on-dementia-destined-for-courts
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Good luck to them.
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I would just like to confirm something, is this an aware lawsuit. Is this to make clubs away of the dangers for the players, or rugby to make law changes to protect the players or something else
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If you were the RFU, WRU or IRFU how could you allow players like Sam Underhill, George North or Johnny Sexton to ever take to the field again? Will it be 3 strikes and retired, 2? Is 1 concussion 1 too many?
These liabilities, if found in the players' favour (and it is very hard to look at a group of young, fit professional athletes with declining mental faculties and not feel sympathy), could well end the sport we, and they, love. Rugby does not have the money the NFL has to pay out on this.
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I worry that the sport we love might be too dangerous at the levels it is played at today. A lawsuit like this could spell the end of the game as we know it.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we shouldn't stop if it truly is dangerous, and the evidence is hard to ignore. But is it even possible to work around that sort of low-level repeated impacts that training at the top level brings?
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Made the BBC 6 o clock TV news - thankfully with no muppet comments.
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If you were the RFU, WRU or IRFU how could you allow players like Sam Underhill, George North or Johnny Sexton to ever take to the field again? Will it be 3 strikes and retired, 2? Is 1 concussion 1 too many?
I think it's widely recognised that a more significant risk is repeated impact collisions where the forces concerned don't necessarily result in concussion. The negligence involved is not having any system in place to assess it as well as the treatment of actual or likely concussions.
What is patently evident in the professional era is that elite players have become bigger, heavier, faster and fitter, making such impacts far more dangerous. I suspect at school and grassroots level the risks are far lower. No sport is risk free and providing risks are identified and mitigated there should not be a problem.
However, for elite rugby it is unbelievable that the authorities have tinkered with the laws in the hope that it will have some effect and not addressed the root causes.
I can say from personal experience that the majority of head knocks I've received while playing are at the breakdown, particularly when attempting to jackal, and not from high tackles although my worst 2 injuries were from illegal tackles.
So laws need to be altered and enforced to stop things like exocet ruck entry and maybe a return to traditional rucking of 30+ years ago. I think that was changed because players got raked but at least they weren't putting their heads in a position to be hit.
At an elite level I think there needs to be a team weight limit to discourage the huge size of players. It means that the big enforcer or massive prop would have to be offset elsewhere, such as small elusive wingers, retuning to a game for all shapes and sizes.
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I worry that the sport we love might be too dangerous at the levels it is played at today. A lawsuit like this could spell the end of the game as we know it.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we shouldn't stop if it truly is dangerous, and the evidence is hard to ignore. But is it even possible to work around that sort of low-level repeated impacts that training at the top level brings?
I'm finding myself being increasingly uncomfortable with the concept of watching young athletes with their whole lives ahead of them risk such debilitating conditions in the name of entertainment, and simply relieved that none of those I call friends who played at a high level are showing signs of dementia or MND (at this stage at least).
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Interesting Steve Thompson and Mark Cueto comments -
Rugby bosses defend strategies of dealing with head injuries https://mol.im/a/11047603 via https://dailym.ai/android
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I worry that the sport we love might be too dangerous at the levels it is played at today. A lawsuit like this could spell the end of the game as we know it.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we shouldn't stop if it truly is dangerous, and the evidence is hard to ignore. But is it even possible to work around that sort of low-level repeated impacts that training at the top level brings?
I'm finding myself being increasingly uncomfortable with the concept of watching young athletes with their whole lives ahead of them risk such debilitating conditions in the name of entertainment, and simply relieved that none of those I call friends who played at a high level are showing signs of dementia or MND (at this stage at least).
Not debilitating conditions - terminal life shortening conditions
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Interesting Steve Thompson and Mark Cueto comments -
Thompson is an interesting case study, one I assume the defence lawyers will target heavily. He did, after all, medically retire from the sport and then pay back his insurance money when other experts told him he could keep on playing. It is sadly the case that at some point as grown men you have to take responsibility for your own choices.
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Rugby told to ‘change or die’ amid fears about concussion crisis suicides
Plus Q&A: Which players are involved, and what difficulties might they face in court?
By Ben Coles, Rugby Reporter 25 July 2022 • 9:41pm
Rugby union has been warned it must change to protect its players “otherwise the sport will die” after more than 185 players launched legal proceedings against World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union and Welsh Rugby Union.
Telegraph Sport can reveal new details of the lawsuit that was due to be filed at court on Monday on behalf of a group of professional and semi-professional players including Alix Popham, the former Wales international, as part of the biggest 'class action' lawsuit outside of the United States.
Popham, who was diagnosed with early onset dementia aged just 40 years old, has urged governing bodies to take immediate action to protect players from debilitating brain injuries after claiming they were negligent for failing to protect players.
Telegraph Sport can also reveal that the proceedings issued to the court by Rylands Law, representing the players, include:
Players ranging from as young as their 20s to their 60s
Another 50 players are going through testing or waiting for results with around two joining the legal proceedings every week
Fears players will take their own lives if not supported
Female players are now confirmed as part of the claimants
As many as "a few dozen" amateur rugby players are also involved
Fears include how the NHS will cope with taking care of high numbers of retired professional athletes in middle age suffering from early onset dementia
Twenty players contacted brain charity Head For Change after former Wales captain Ryan Jones revealed last week that he is suffering from early onset dementia, aged 41.
Health conditions among the group of claimants range from those suffering with more extreme cases of Motor Neurone Disease, Parkinson's and probably moderate Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE), with the latter only confirmed following post-mortem.
The least extreme cases include players suffering from mild post-concussion syndrome, which can last for weeks, months or longer, while others in between suffer from epilepsy and the start of progressive neurodegenerative disease such as early onset dementia.
Symptoms include chronic depression, suicidal thoughts and attempts, aggression, addiction to alcohol and drugs as a result of their brain injuries, and a worsening memory and inability to concentrate.
"It's all pretty grim, to be honest, and quite consistent across the board," said Richard Boardman, of Rylands Law.
"From our point of view, the ideal outcome is to get damages for the players and their young families to make sure they are looked after, and then ensure they have that clinical support in place. At the moment there is a considerable vacuum once a player has been diagnosed.
"The poor NHS is not set up for hundreds if not thousands of otherwise fit sportsmen in their 30s and 40s with dementia, in terms of how to deal with them.
"We're trying to work with foundations and charities and some kind clinicians who are helping us to ensure that we catch particularly the guys in the worst conditions, because they are in a bad way and they do need support. We don't want any of them to kill themselves.
"For this great sport to continue for another 100 years-plus, we have to accept that the brain is a delicate organ which needs heightened protection, and as a sport we have to err on the side of caution. Otherwise all brains, no matter what level you play at, are going to be impacted."
Popham, now 42, won 33 caps for Wales but was diagnosed with early onset dementia 10 years after his retirement, when doctors estimated his brain had suffered up to 100,000 sub-concussions during 14 years of playing professionally. He now runs the brain charity Head For Change.
"There have been cases where I have spoken to family members of players who have taken their lives because of this," Popham told Telegraph Sport, citing Wales' recent intense training sessions before their tour of South Africa as an example of how player welfare can improve.
"Rugby really needs to be reset and needs to be Rugby 2.0. The seasons need to be half what they are," Popham added.
"There is a hell of a lot of evidence that contact sport has caused damage to players' brains. It's a terrible image for the sport, for mums and dads who are thinking of sending their kids to rugby there is a huge amount that needs to be changed to make it as safe as possible."
"For me, I still love rugby. We just need to draw a line in the sand with what has gone wrong. I'd have more respect for [World Rugby, RFU, WRU] if they put their hand up and said 'yep, we made a mistake and here's what we are going to do now'. Because otherwise the sport will die. And we don't want that."
Progressive Rugby, the rugby union lobby group, also announced on Monday that they are in the process of "finalising a comprehensive list of player welfare critical requirements which will be submitted to World Rugby".
"We believe delay is no longer an option and that radical action must be taken as a matter of urgency to ensure rugby union's reputation isn't damaged beyond repair," the group added. Those proposed changes include a mandatory limit on contact in training, improving pitchside diagnostic tools, reducing the number of non-injury substitutions, and extending the return-to-play for a concussion.
World Rugby, the RFU and WRU responded on Monday by saying: “We care deeply about all our players, including former players, and never stand still when it comes to welfare. Our strategies to prevent, identify and manage head injuries are driven by a passion to safeguard our players and founded on the latest science, evidence and independent expert guidance.”
Q&A: Rugby's dementia crisis ends up in court
By Ben Coles
Who is involved?
More than 185 players are now part of the class action, including former Wales captain Ryan Jones who announced two weeks ago that he is suffering from early on-set dementia at the age of 41.
Other players involved include Steve Thompson, England's Rugby World Cup-winning hooker from 2003, who has said that he cannot remember winning the tournament.
When did preparations for the case begin?
Nine players, including Thompson and Popham and all under the age of 45, came together in December 2020 to propose legal proceedings against World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union in England and the Welsh Rugby Union.
What was the diagnosis for all those players involved?
All of the original nine claimants received the same diagnosis of dementia with probable chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE). The only known cause of CTE is repeated blows to the head, although CTE can only be confirmed following a post-mortem on the brain.
What has happened since the originally proposed legal proceedings?
Neither side has been able to agree on a settlement for the players involved, resulting in the matter going to court. The group litigation is set to become the biggest "class action" outside of the United States, with the court now taking over the management of the cases, and legal proceedings are set to be issued against World Rugby, the RFU and WRU.
What have World Rugby, the RFU and WRU said?
All three governing bodies released a statement on Monday responding to the legal proceedings. “We care deeply about all our players, including former players, and never stand still when it comes to welfare. Our strategies to prevent, identify and manage head injuries are driven by a passion to safeguard our players and founded on the latest science, evidence and independent expert guidance.”
How high could a potential settlement figure be?
"It's too early to say, but in a broad brush sense these are all pretty young men in early middle age with, many of them, progressive neurodegenerative brain injuries, so it's highly likely their claims would be considerable," believes Richard Boardman of Rylands Law.
If the case went to court, how would it play out?
Jonathan Compton, partner at DMH Stallard, says: "Where the claimants themselves will face difficulty is when they are asked specifically how they can attribute any of their conditions to their playing career, when did their symptoms start, how were they caused. But their sense that it is right to be seeking compensation seems just.
"For the governing bodies, when it comes to the matter possibly going to court, even if they were to win the optics do not look good. How would it come across asking former players suffering from health conditions to defend themselves in court?"
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Rugby cannot afford NFL-level damages
By Ben Coles
When considering the outcomes of the legal action taken by more than 185 players against World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union and Welsh Rugby Union, comparisons have been drawn with the settlement made between the National Football League and 4,500 players in 2013.
“A linebacker is similar to a back-row forward in rugby. There are similarities in terms of type of damage, the symptoms we’re seeing,” explains Robert Boardman of Rylands Legal, representing the rugby players in their case.
Those American football players sued the NFL on the grounds that they had been misled over the long-term dangers of head injuries. Before a judge could rule on the case, the sides reached a $765 million (£636 million) settlement. Of that, $675 million went to more than 20,000 former players with cognitive injuries, the payouts varying by individual.
Up to $75 million was used for baseline medical exams, while $10 million went towards a research and education fund. The rest was used to cover legal fees.
The obvious difference to the case facing rugby is that the amount available is nowhere near the same as what the NFL could afford. The NFL’s annual revenue for 2013 alone was above $9 billion, meaning that while paying $765 million was certainly significant, it was far from financially crippling.
When the first payments were made to former players in 2017, they ranged from anywhere between $25,000 and $5 million. Rugby simply does not have the kind of money available if the number of former players joining the case continues to grow as rapidly as it seems to be with each passing month.
The NFL settlement has not been without issue since it was agreed. Nine former players and their families notably opted out of the settlement, including the family of Junior Seau, the Hall of Fame linebacker who committed suicide in 2012. Following his death at the age of 43, Seau was diagnosed with CTE. His family later reached a confidential settlement with the NFL in 2018.
Some of those players who agreed to the settlement have also since appealed against their level of compensation after accusing the NFL of “race-norming”, the practice of assuming a lower baseline of cognitive abilities in black players.
While Rylands Legal is only using the NFL settlement for background information, the similarities in terms of players’ symptoms and causation, plus the outcome of the NFL agreeing an out-of-court settlement with their former players over a protracted court case which could take years, offer an indication of how rugby’s own moment of reckoning might play out.
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Following on from LWasp's comment, I recall that when I applied to the Motor Sports Association for a racing licence, I had to sign any number of disclaimers exhonerating both the MSA and the race meeting organisers from any liability whatsoever. I signed all of them in the full knowledge that any injury I suffered was down to me and my talent - or rather lack of it.
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Following on from LWasp's comment, I recall that when I applied to the Motor Sports Association for a racing licence, I had to sign any number of disclaimers exhonerating both the MSA and the race meeting organisers from any liability whatsoever. I signed all of them in the full knowledge that any injury I suffered was down to me and my talent - or rather lack of it.
I think those disclaimers become pretty worthless if the injured party can show negligence on part of the organisers.
For example, if you drove too fast into a corner, spun, hit the wall, and broke your arm - that's your fault. However, if in an earlier race a car had spilled oil on that corner and the race organisers had done nothing to clear to otherwise mitigate the slippery conditions, then you would have a case despite the disclaimer.
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TBT,
That's quite true but, in the scenario you mention, the track marshals hang out oil-warning flags and, after that race would clear it up before the next one. There were indeed lots of safety measures in place. Alas, they didn't stop me destroying my car against the pit wall at Silverstone!
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TBT,
That's quite true but, in the scenario you mention, the track marshals hang out oil-warning flags and, after that race would clear it up before the next one. There were indeed lots of safety measures in place. Alas, they didn't stop me destroying my car against the pit wall at Silverstone!
That sounds exciting! I hope you got out unscathed!
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From the Beeb:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/62302408 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/62302408)
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TBT,
Not quite. Dislocated collar bone and damaged shoulder caused by the onboard fire extinguisher popping out of its mounting and flying around the cockpit! Oh, and a shellacking from my wife!
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Interesting Steve Thompson and Mark Cueto comments -
Thompson is an interesting case study, one I assume the defence lawyers will target heavily. He did, after all, medically retire from the sport and then pay back his insurance money when other experts told him he could keep on playing. It is sadly the case that at some point as grown men you have to take responsibility for your own choices.
Agreed.
I was a second opinion on his retirement, and I was more than a little surprised reviewing the radiological and medical records.
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David Walsh has written a heartbreaking article about the Scotland Women's player Siobhan Cattigan, who died last year. It's too long to cut and paste here, but can be read here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they-fixed-siobhan-s-broken-bones-but-turned-their-back-on-her-broken-brain-n668rkwlt?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1659202251
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It beggars belief that the game's authorities haven't acted quickly and sensibly when it comes to injuries which are either career or life-threatening.
If this were somerthing like the aviation industry they would find out what's causing the damage, work out how to minimise the damage and then act upon it. If they couldn't, they would take steps to eradicate it.
It's appalling.
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Is this largely a problem for rugby Union? I ask as one of the Welsh guys involved played both codes. Are there thing we can learn from League? They certainly have big impact tackles by several players but no mauls and scrums are just a way of play re-starting.