Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: ColonelWasp on October 25, 2022, 11:07:08 AM
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The following was posted on another link on Oct 17.
"So we're learning that the operating company that runs the CBS Arena, ACL, looks likely to avoid going into administration, as a new notice of intention to appoint administrators was filed today. This will give them 10 days of grace to get their house in order."
I presume that this will therefore expire on Thursday and they can they then apply for a further 10 days as Wasps Holdings did if they wish to before an Administrator would need to be appointed?
I spoke to someone yesterday who formerly held a senior position at Wasps and I understand that "talks" are ongoing regarding Wasps Rugby, but I presume that these are also "linked" with what may happen to the Arena in due course as well?
It looks like things will "rumble on" for a while yet, but if anyone has any positive news that would be very welcome.
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Indeed so. And I believe bondholders have been asked to stump up for marketing costs which indicates ACL/The stadium has not attracted the requisite interest. That request, I would imagine, will generate 0 and probably serve to wind bondholders up to breaking point - albeit the point they could take action seems to have passed.
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Doesn’t look good, bond holders unlikely to get their money back
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Given that Wasps indicated that the stadium needed work (was that not the purpose of the big grant they were looking for, but did not get?), chances are no one is willing to buy it for anywhere near the price needed to cover loans secured on it. If that is the case, then it must go in to some form of insolvency, where secured creditors would then receive (eventually) a partial payout. As soon as it is obvious no such sale is likely, it should go in to administration.
It would give any potential owner of Wasps the opportunity to buy the stadium at a 'knockdown' price, at the expense of those secured creditors. I am guessing that the first secured creditors are the bondholders, but that may not be the case. It depends how the bond was originally set up. Only if the bondholders (assuming they are the primary secured creditors) are paid in full, do the next secured creditors get any money. Generally, the secured creditors will not receive a fixed percentage of their debt. Instead it goes in a hierarchy.
If any potential buyer of Wasps wants to play at the CBS Arena, they will have either to buy it, or wait until someone buys it (to clear it of the secured debt) and come to a deal with them. Only then would such a buyer actually buy Wasps. But, that is likely only to happen after ACL goes in to administration. It might be that a potential buyer does not want a lease, but wants to acquire freehold, and that could happen only if the council take the lease back, which in turn cannot happen until ACL goes in to some form of insolvency. It will get very messy with those loans secured on it. My guess is that the Council would be obliged to hand over any proceeds (after costs) to an administrator, but who knows?
It could just as easily end up in Court, with the arena closed for months or even years.
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Would that then effect CCFC or will they still be able to play at the stadium
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NWW, surely no-one was ever going to buy the stadium until it went into administration? Why would you. That being fairly obvious why would anyone blow money on marketing it at this point. For clarity I’m not countering any points of yours I’m just confused as in terms of the process I thought in terms of ACL we were at point D (sale whilst in administration) but it looks like we’re still at A (try and sell as going concern).
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Gilbert throws his view in -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63387627
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Gilbert throws his view in -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63387627
That is fairly clear, and reveals to me some things.
As to why you would want to buy it before it went in to administration, if it was worth more (net of debt) than you were paying, then that would be the reason. But is appears it is not (especially now lacking Wasps as a certain tenant).
But, that request to bond holders makes it clear that administration is not initially on the cards. I did wonder at that, so a quick chat with my wife and she agrees, it would have to go in to liquidation. Company Voluntary Liquidation (CVL) would normally be where assets less secured debt have a balance that would pay the liquidator. It appears that is unlikely.
The only other choice is to allow ACL to go in to Compulsory Liquidation (which is what happened to Wasps). But, a creditor has to take Court action for that to happen, and that costs money ... the secured creditors (the bondholders) will not as they can simply wait for liquidation and sale of the arena lease.
However, I am far from sure how secure they are. They cannot have security over the freehold, as the Council own that, so they have security over the lease only, and, when in liquidation, the Council can cancel the lease without compensation, and re-sell it, leaving the bondholders with nothing.
It would appear that nobody is willing to pull the trigger. I guess the directors of ACL should stop trading and make everyone redundant. But, doing so they would be obliged to put some money in to pay for a CVL to happen, to cover the fees of the Liquidator.
This is going to get very messy. But yes, as Westy said, the bond holders and other creditors could be left with nothing. Eventually, someone will pick up the stadium for cheap. Maybe even CCFC. If I were the new lease owner, would I let Wasps back? Maybe, if the price was right. What would happen with CCFC's contract if they didn't buy the stadium lease? Null and void. Which means they could be looking for somewhere to play also.
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That would be disappointing if the bond holders lose out.
To be honest I'm so sick of Coventry I will have no sympathy if things went belly up for CCFC
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That would be disappointing if the bond holders lose out.
To be honest I'm so sick of Coventry I will have no sympathy if things went belly up for CCFC
I am a local lad, so Coventry is 'in the blood'. Sky Blues fan since I was maybe 6 (a LONG time ago). I have not been to watch them play since they left Highfield Road, so the only matches I have watched at the Ricoh were rugby matches. The whole saga of how they lost Highfield Road was disgusting, and I lost faith in the owners.
But, I do not want to see Wasps in Coventry any longer. I could care not a fig if CCFC have anywhere to play or not. The modern 'fans' disgust me, as do their owners, SISU.
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If it is a choice of Wasps in Cov or no Wasps, then I think we would all rather the former. Question is, will we even have options to go anywhere....
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It would be an absolute travesty if after all this it's found that the guarantee of the bond (i.e. against the stadium) is essentially worthless.
The bond was supposedly a safe bet because even if Wasps couldn't pay it, the value of the stadium would see the bond holders repaid.
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The bottom line is that the Coventry venture was flawed from Day 1.
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It would be an absolute travesty if after all this it's found that the guarantee of the bond (i.e. against the stadium) is essentially worthless.
The bond was supposedly a safe bet because even if Wasps couldn't pay it, the value of the stadium would see the bond holders repaid.
I agree, if it turns out that the security was worthless if ACL went in to liquidation. If so, was the prospectus misleading? This may be the reason that HSBC and other potential backers pulled out. They saw that the security was that. Some might argue that all 'investment' is done at risk.
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The bottom line is that the Coventry venture was flawed from Day 1.
In hindsight, yes. Could it ever had worked OK? I am unsure. On balance I would have said no. But, I didn't look really hard at the time. Gift horse, mouth, etc.
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The bottom line is that the Coventry venture was flawed from Day 1.
In hindsight, yes. Could it ever had worked OK? I am unsure. On balance I would have said no. But, I didn't look really hard at the time. Gift horse, mouth, etc.
If there's truth in us having reached some form of financial level footing pre-covid
And if the bond could have been refinanced at significantly less than 6%
And if we hadn't been to court dozens of times
And if we had been able to organise stadium naming rights on time
And if covid hadn't shut the entire complex for 2 years
Then maybe it could have worked
But what's clear is that with all those things, and probably other things, then it was a complete wash out
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The bottom line is that the Coventry venture was flawed from Day 1.
Easy enough to say that. But on day 1000 (approx) along came Covid with national lock downs and either no games or games played in empty stadia; no concerts, no conferences, hotel and casino empty, no other events, in fact no multiple income streams at all. The global pandemic, the biggest and most severe pandemic for 100 years had no influence on Derek's business at all. The RFU and PRL can kiss my arse. I'll add Rob Baxter to that invitation.
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Well said Ross (tho' I'd like to omit the last two sentences if you don't mind!)
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I think the writing was on the wall from the moment the 2017 squad started to fall apart. The model we were following was never going to yield crowds of 15000 plus week in and week out. It needed to, and we then got covid that killed the game as a habit.
Dai wanted conservative rugby winning 20 13 rather than 46 39. End of. It was clear at the time and in retrospect that Danny was driving him mad. Once Danny, Wade et al went we got exactly that, without as many wins.
Lee's team played with panache at times , but overall the direction was towards a youthful team but one that did not know how to throw it around with abandon. If you want to attract curious locals we needed constant wins for an extended period or an exciting brand. We got neither. The wins dried up after covid. Jack Willis getting the umpteenth turnover of a game is great for enfranchised fans like us, but only Wade-esque beating in six a phonebox or Beale style genius puts 2000 plus casual bums on seats.
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The bottom line is that the Coventry venture was flawed from Day 1.
In hindsight, yes. Could it ever had worked OK? I am unsure. On balance I would have said no. But, I didn't look really hard at the time. Gift horse, mouth, etc.
If there's truth in us having reached some form of financial level footing pre-covid
And if the bond could have been refinanced at significantly less than 6%
And if we hadn't been to court dozens of times
And if we had been able to organise stadium naming rights on time
And if covid hadn't shut the entire complex for 2 years
Then maybe it could have worked
But what's clear is that with all those things, and probably other things, then it was a complete wash out
100% this.
It could have worked and without the external issues would have worked I think.
With all the debt gone, I think it still could.
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Anyone long for the days when ACL Updates was a thread about hoped for returns from serious injury?
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Anyone long for the days when ACL Updates was a thread about hoped for returns from serious injury?
+1
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Sounds like the question whether Wasps will continue as a professional club is going to drag on, the waiting is very trying as I've had both fingers crossed for weeks now.
On this subject wasn't it over a week ago that the Administrator stated that he was ready to put a bid to the RFU?
It would be nice to know how that was progressing.
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Presumably our future cannot be clear until the stadium's new owners are known, barring a White Knight who already owns a club with a stadium who happens to like rugby. Assuming that is a no no, we may have a fair dinkum wait.
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My wife works in the office space at the CBS Arena.
They are moving everything out tomorrow.
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To Jordan210 on SBT they are moving out because despite asking constantly they don't know if they will still have a lease on Monday.
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My wife works in the office space at the CBS Arena.
They are moving everything out tomorrow.
Works there for the administrator of Wasps, rather than works there for ACL or one of the other businesses not yet in administration (or whatever), I assume.
A truly troubling time for all.
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The CCFC game on Saturday is confirmed as being on. I think it may be tomorrow that is the date of admin.
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My wife works in the office space at the CBS Arena.
They are moving everything out tomorrow.
Works there for the administrator of Wasps, rather than works there for ACL or one of the other businesses not yet in administration (or whatever), I assume.
A truly troubling time for all.
No Nelly a company that's been renting office space since 2015.
I've been in this position myself at a company and I just hope they can get everything out by 12PM if the worst does happen.
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My wife works in the office space at the CBS Arena.
They are moving everything out tomorrow.
Works there for the administrator of Wasps, rather than works there for ACL or one of the other businesses not yet in administration (or whatever), I assume.
A truly troubling time for all.
No Nelly a company that's been renting office space since 2015.
I've been in this position myself at a company and I just hope they can get everything out by 12PM if the worst does happen.
Ah. Then that would suggest ACL have decided to call it a day as well. It doesn't surprise me. I did not think anybody would buy in at the last minute. The vultures arrive after then.
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My wife works in the office space at the CBS Arena.
They are moving everything out tomorrow.
Works there for the administrator of Wasps, rather than works there for ACL or one of the other businesses not yet in administration (or whatever), I assume.
A truly troubling time for all.
No Nelly a company that's been renting office space since 2015.
I've been in this position myself at a company and I just hope they can get everything out by 12PM if the worst does happen.
Ah. Then that would suggest ACL have decided to call it a day as well. It doesn't surprise me. I did not think anybody would buy in at the last minute. The vultures arrive after then.
It's certainly looking that way.
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So why was the £60m bid rejected, I know the P share had to be part of the deal but why wasn't a deal done prior to us going into administration. Appreciate we might be going over old ground but just confused.
Was the £60m not enough for the board, wasn't the deal to cover the bond holders as well. Was the bid about going into administration but still wanted to keep the P share.
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So why was the £60m bid rejected, I know the P share had to be part of the deal but why wasn't a deal done prior to us going into administration. Appreciate we might be going over old ground but just confused.
Was the £60m not enough for the board, wasn't the deal to cover the bond holders as well. Was the bid about going into administration but still wanted to keep the P share.
Not sure of the figures, but I'm fairly sure that the Armstrong (think that was the correct name!) bid relied on Wasps going into administration and keeping the P share. Prem Rugby said that wasn't going to happen, so the bid failed.
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That’s my understanding. It wasn’t rejected, it was withdrawn by the bidder over the P share. PRL were indeed strong on the issue. As they always are of course. The PRL incidentally are the 11 remaining clubs who have conveniently now started picking up some very good Wasps and Worcester players.
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That’s my understanding. It wasn’t rejected, it was withdrawn by the bidder over the P share. PRL were indeed strong on the issue. As they always are of course. The PRL incidentally are the 11 remaining clubs who have conveniently now started picking up some very good Wasps and Worcester players.
For next to nothing I imagine!
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Whilst I am extremely glad that many of our boys have found (hopefully temporary) new homes, and the other teams are only following the business practice as would we ... it does feel a lot like vultures and dry bones.
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What happened to ACL going into admin?
Very strange.
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What happened to ACL going into admin?
Very strange.
Extract from a Cov Telegraph article:
Two bids are understood to have been made to buy the Coventry Building Society Arena – a situation that has enabled the stadium to continue to operate and host Coventry City matches for the foreseeable future, beyond Tuesday night’s home match with Blackburn Rovers.
CoventryLive understands that the NEC Group are one interested party who have expressed a firm interest in the stadium, which is run by operating company ACL, while a rival bid is also understood to have been lodged – both of which effectively keeps the business going for the time being.
As of Friday afternoon, it is understood that ACL was heading for liquidation if a buyer, fresh funding or credible interested parties had not been found by 4pm today (Mon, Oct 31). As it stands, ACL is not in administration.
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I see that, just now on BBC News, ACL has applied to go in to Administration, which we be this afternoon. They lodged the application immediately after the Sky Blues game yesterday (they won).
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I understand that a number of bids have been made but not sure if they all rely on going into Administration?
Press speculation that these are bids from NEC and Ashley, but at least one other I think (I don't know if SISU have also bid to make that 4).
I presume that the Administrator now has to evaluate the offers and choose a "preferred" bidder in the same way as they did with Wasps Rugby and then the bidder has to "deliver" on their plans ASAP after that?
I think it is a stipulation from the Council Freehold that sports have to be played at the stadium so I presume that the site can't be "bulldozed" for housing or shops so I would think that any owner would want as much "sports and leisure usage" as possible for their investment?
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My reading is that Ashley has bought the lease pre admin. The rest will now go into admin. Ashley and SISU will slug it out over CCFC. CCFC may have a right to play there (protected lease, stipulation re sport etc) but Ashley can make it difficult (huge rent) etc. More importantly if the RFU don’t show leniency and we’ve had no discussions with Ashley about playing there we are in a sticky spot. If we were to get everything in place to relaunch only to be scuppered by some RFU buffoonery that would take the biscuit.
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Colonel - you are an extremely useful person to know and your input is much appreciated. Many thanks to you ... :)
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I don't know what discussions may or may not have taken place, but I do know that Wasps were aware of Ashley's interest way before all of this so I presume some dialogue may well have taken place (dependant on what the final outcome may be).
I also understand that the Freehold stipulates the land/stadium is for sporting use so if Ashley has bought the Lease, he would have to honour that.
As he is looking to build his new HO just up the road in Ansty, I presume that he'd want to keep the council on his side for any planning "issues" that might crop up at that site so offering a "sporting home" to those that want it would make sense to me.
However, we are talking business and pretty "big bucks" so common sense may not apply, but you would hope it would for everyone's sake.
After all the vast majority of the local (and wider) community and sports fans just want to enjoy their day out with their families and friends and be entertained.
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I understand that a number of bids have been made but not sure if they all rely on going into Administration?
Press speculation that these are bids from NEC and Ashley, but at least one other I think (I don't know if SISU have also bid to make that 4).
I presume that the Administrator now has to evaluate the offers and choose a "preferred" bidder in the same way as they did with Wasps Rugby and then the bidder has to "deliver" on their plans ASAP after that?
I think it is a stipulation from the Council Freehold that sports have to be played at the stadium so I presume that the site can't be "bulldozed" for housing or shops so I would think that any owner would want as much "sports and leisure usage" as possible for their investment?
I think its a bit simpler with assets rather than with the rugby club. The administrator just has to get the best deal for the creditors without worrying about whether a 3rd party, eg RFU could scupper any deal by not recognising the new owners' right to play in the league and any bid would be conditional on that right because that's effectively what they are buying.
With the assets it's more buyer beware. If one party puts a biggest bid on the table and show's the means of payment the administrator has to accept. its the bidders problem if at a later date they can't do with the asset what they wanted eg knock the stadium down and build houses or something similar. The administrator wouldn't be interested in waiting to see if that permission would be granted.
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This could get even messier than it is aleady.
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https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/cbs-arena-25412887
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Doesn't say much.
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I don't know what discussions may or may not have taken place, but I do know that Wasps were aware of Ashley's interest way before all of this so I presume some dialogue may well have taken place (dependant on what the final outcome may be).
I also understand that the Freehold stipulates the land/stadium is for sporting use so if Ashley has bought the Lease, he would have to honour that.
As he is looking to build his new HO just up the road in Ansty, I presume that he'd want to keep the council on his side for any planning "issues" that might crop up at that site so offering a "sporting home" to those that want it would make sense to me.
However, we are talking business and pretty "big bucks" so common sense may not apply, but you would hope it would for everyone's sake.
After all the vast majority of the local (and wider) community and sports fans just want to enjoy their day out with their families and friends and be entertained.
Sadly, his planned HO is in Warwickshire, but the Arena is in the West Midlands. But, he might seek to build his HO on Car Park C, or on the waste land between the railway line and Tesco, which I think might also be part of the Arena lease. Coventry City Council may wish to 'poach' the location of the new HO.
As others have said, it might be his aim to also buy CCFC, and make them the primary tenants, with Wasps as a secondary tenant. And then price Wasps out of the stadium (unless he is also involved behind the Legends bid). He is not known for being a particularly pleasant chap to deal with, nor for his charity.
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From today's Daily Telegraph.
Mike Ashley identified as preferred bidder for Wasps and Coventry City stadium
Exclusive: Whether owning either Wasps or Coventry City is a longer-term goal remains to be seen
The Mike Ashley-owned Frasers is on the verge of becoming Coventry City and Wasps’ new landlord after being identified as the preferred bidder for the Coventry Building Society (CBS) Arena.
Arena Coventry Limited (ACL) confirmed on Wednesday that it, Arena Coventry (2006) Limited and IEC Experience Limited had applied to the Court for the Companies to be placed in administration ahead of an expected takeover.
A spokesman added: “We anticipate that the administration orders will be made in the forthcoming weeks.
“The Companies and the proposed administrators from FRP Advisory have run an accelerated sales process to sell the business and assets of the Companies and have identified a preferred bidder.
“The Arena will continue to trade as normal. We would like to thank all the working parties involved in helping the Companies get to this stage and we are delighted that the doors will remain open to this flagship venue.”
The stadium business has been forced into administration after the same fate befell Wasps, who secured it in 2014 on a 250-year lease.
Former Newcastle United owner Ashley was last month linked with a move to buy the stricken Premiership rugby club but it would appear the stadium was the real target as part of a plan to make Coventry his new stronghold.
Whether owning either Wasps or Coventry is a longer-term goal remains to be seen, with neither part of a deal Telegraph Sport has been told nevertheless will see Frasers commit “100 per cent” to both teams continuing to play at the arena.
The venue’s plight had thrown its staging of City’s Championship game against Blackburn Rovers on Tuesday night into doubt but it ultimately went ahead there.
Frasers, which would purchase the lease to the ground but not the council-owned freehold, is said to be keen to put its stamp on Coventry and demonstrate its commitment to the area as it seeks planning permission for a vast new headquarters on the edge of the city.
The CBS Arena also houses a hotel and large casino, and Ashley’s appetite for gambling has been a hallmark of his business career.
The 58-year-old recently stepped back from day-to-day operations at Frasers and is said to be focused on the new development, which includes plans for a distribution hub with a new head office, retail space, a hotel, restaurant and conference facilities.
Wasps relocated to Coventry in 2014 and hit trouble after income came under heavy pressure from the pandemic.
When it announced its intention to appoint administrators, ACL said: “The arena is a profitable standalone business with huge potential and therefore is attracting strong interest from a number of parties.
“We have filed a notice of intention to appoint administrators and we will be aiming to use this period to complete a deal with a venue operator.”
The exhibitions giant NEC Group reportedly expressed interest in the sale early on, but is now said to have dropped out.
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Like him or not at least it is a decision.
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so wasps will be back at the CBS arena next year.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63483798
Gilbert not happy! :) :) :)
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63483798
Gilbert not happy! :) :) :)
Gilbert also likely to be out of a dayjob with news about BBC Local Radio Presenters being at risk breaking yesterday. It's typical SISU though, wanted to wait until it was too late and make a lowball offer. Cue the lawsuits at how they've been unfairly treated...
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63483798
Gilbert not happy! :) :) :)
And good with his 'facts', such as Ashley still owns Newcastle FC.
Of course Mike Ashley will not have spoken to SISU. When and if he gets control of the Arena, he can rightly say that because it went in to administration the tenancy agreement CCFC had was ended. He can hardball them game to game, forcing them to only sell tickets at the last minute for each game. Because SISU, if they sell CCFC, will likely realise a loss, and will be keen to try to talk up the price. At the same time, SISU will stop paying creditors unless forced to, because if they subsequently sell the club, they would prefer to do so so without having to pay out any money in the meantime.
Joy's negotiating tactics won't work with Mike Ashley, he won't be doing her any favours.
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https://www.newcastleworld.com/sport/football/newcastle-united/former-newcastle-united-owner-mike-ashley-agrees-eight-figure-takeover-involving-football-club-3911621
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https://www.newcastleworld.com/sport/football/newcastle-united/former-newcastle-united-owner-mike-ashley-agrees-eight-figure-takeover-involving-football-club-3911621
Is this not old news - Gilbert again.
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https://www.newcastleworld.com/sport/football/newcastle-united/former-newcastle-united-owner-mike-ashley-agrees-eight-figure-takeover-involving-football-club-3911621
Sneaky use of the word 'involving'. Implies he is buying CCFC without saying so. Which he isn't. Click bait worthy of The Sun.
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The administrators have received an offer of £15.9 million for the stadium apparently.
Ashley trying to buy on the cheap again?
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The administrators have received an offer of £15.9 million for the stadium apparently.
Ashley trying to buy on the cheap again?
Sad if that is all.
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That doesn't sound like very much. How much did Wasps pay for it when they bought it originally?
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It isn’t very much. And that goes between all creditors including bondholders. But presumably that’s the best offer there is. The other possibility is liquidation presumably. There are going to be a lot of upset creditors.
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Selling the stadium is liquidation, unless they thought they could knock it down and the bits were worth more than the whole.
It’s a fire sale and the stadium’s worth what someone will pay for it.
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If true, this does beg the question (even more so) as to why Derek vetoed the £60 million offer?
I know that we don't have the full facts as public knowledge and have met Derek on several occasions and thought him to be a genuine and passionate rugby/wasps man, but I don't understand some of the things that have happened if that was the case and if the "board" could have avoided being where we are right now, why they didn't?
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It didn’t seem credible is the assumption. But in the absence of anything else it may have been worth exploring. Maybe Richardson knew (quite righty I think) that the match funding part wouldn’t fly in a million years and didn’t want to waste time on it.
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His silence is still puzzling. A rugby man would surely try to explain what has happened, or at least, explain why they could not explain, to their employees, as a bare minimum.
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I must admit it does seem odd. With the club like a drowning man the offer was substantially more than a straw to clutch, at so surely being thrown a decent lifeline was worth exploring - especially if the rest of the board thought it was a no brainer.
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If that consortium was serious why aren't they bidding now?
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Like a drowning man I'm rapidly losing hope, but still looking for the glimpse of a lifebelt
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This guy says his consortium offered £20m:
https://twitter.com/BBCCWR/status/1592553687683153920
With the bondholders owed £35m, that suggests they will receive under 50p on the £1.
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The Administrators' job is to get the best deal they can, and so if they aren't going for the biggest offer there is a reason.
And if there is a reason someone utterly objective isn't going for the bigger money then maybe there was just as good a reason Derek didn't jump at a big figure being waved around.
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Or was he trying to hold out for bigger offer and that wasn't credible and then it was too late?
I don't think any "offers" were cut and dried, but I still don't understand why if something was on the table, all the board didn't vote to go down that line and try to seal the deal even if it ended up not happening for whatever reason?
There seems to be a lot of "anger" amongst some senior figures behind the club on this and other frustrations also.
As a fan, supporter, season ticket holder and sponsor all I want too know is the truth and hopefully a way forward of some description.
The longer we go on without this, the more speculation there will be which probably isn't "healthy" for anyone (apart from certain parts of the press maybe)? :)
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As a fan, supporter, season ticket holder and sponsor all I want too know is the truth and hopefully a way forward of some description.
Don't disagree colonel, but for me the critical piece is the way forward.
The longer this goes on without further news & rumours of missed opportunities & angry senior figures, the more unlikely it seems to me that a way will be found for Wasps to survive.
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I would think there is an embargo on anyone saying anything until it is finally sorted. Doesn't stop disgruntled bids (as above) mouthing off though.
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I agree there's something not quite right with the rumoured £60m bid. If it was real they could jump in now with a mere £16m, buy the P share for £9m, and have £35m to rebuild a squad. So why aren't they bidding or why isn't the administrator taking their bid seriously.?
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Or was he trying to hold out for bigger offer and that wasn't credible and then it was too late?
I don't think any "offers" were cut and dried, but I still don't understand why if something was on the table, all the board didn't vote to go down that line and try to seal the deal even if it ended up not happening for whatever reason?
There seems to be a lot of "anger" amongst some senior figures behind the club on this and other frustrations also.
As a fan, supporter, season ticket holder and sponsor all I want too know is the truth and hopefully a way forward of some description.
The longer we go on without this, the more speculation there will be which probably isn't "healthy" for anyone (apart from certain parts of the press maybe)? :)
I've spoken to Derek about telling the story, he's quite keen, but understandably quite busy right now. I'll start nagging him a little in a week or two.
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While I'm aware that you can't say much, are you now familiar with the details?
And if so, are you happy with the decision?
As I see it, even if any bid was accepted, there's still no guarantee that it would have gone through and actually made any difference.
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While I'm aware that you can't say much, are you now familiar with the details?
And if so, are you happy with the decision?
As I see it, even if any bid was accepted, there's still no guarantee that it would have gone through and actually made any difference.
No, I don't know any details.
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The Administrators' job is to get the best deal they can, and so if they aren't going for the biggest offer there is a reason.
And if there is a reason someone utterly objective isn't going for the bigger money then maybe there was just as good a reason Derek didn't jump at a big figure being waved around.
Or, maybe there wasn't. You cannot defend him with supposition if he says nothing. It is time for him to speak out or be damned as the guy who sold Wasps down the river when things got tight. That might be unfair, and if it is then he needs to say something. It sounds like the old accustation that it was all a property deal with Wasps as the leverage to get it rings true. If he really cares about the staff and players who are now jobless he *must* give his side of it, or let the rest of us draw conclusions, it is that simple and he should not need prodding. Silence just makes him sound guilty. If there are legal reasons for silence, let them be hinted at if not heard. ' I cannot talk about it' would suffice.
We have heard the player interviews. He owes it to them to talk and not when he feels like it. They have lost more than him in many ways. There will be people who can't pay their mortgage this month or are now unable to rent. They deserve to be told the truth now if that is legally possible.
Whatever he is busy with, those players are jobless or taking 75 pc cuts in wages to play. 'He is busy' sounds like he is bullshitting, frankly. What is making him so busy that he doesn't have half an hour to talk to explain what happened to those players who are now jobless? If my employer caused me to take a job at even half my current wage I would not be accepting that they were too busy to explain. Neither will the players and staff.
The defence of a man who must be aware that silence looks awful is odd to me. I am sure that many are willing to listen and give him their ears, I am one of them, but if he says nothing, it will say everything. You simply cannot be too busy to explain when jobs have gone. You can be legally tied up, but not too busy. So if he is keen to talk, now is the time.
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The Administrators' job is to get the best deal they can, and so if they aren't going for the biggest offer there is a reason.
And if there is a reason someone utterly objective isn't going for the bigger money then maybe there was just as good a reason Derek didn't jump at a big figure being waved around.
Or, maybe there wasn't. You cannot defend him with supposition if he says nothing. It is time for him to speak out or be damned as the guy who sold Wasps down the river when things got tight. That might be unfair, and if it is then he needs to say something. It sounds like the old accustation that it was all a property deal with Wasps as the leverage to get it rings true. If he really cares about the staff and players who are now jobless he *must* give his side of it, or let the rest of us draw conclusions, it is that simple and he should not need prodding. Silence just makes him sound guilty. If there are legal reasons for silence, let them be hinted at if not heard. ' I cannot talk about it' would suffice.
We have heard the player interviews. He owes it to them to talk and not when he feels like it. They have lost more than him in many ways. There will be people who can't pay their mortgage this month or are now unable to rent. They deserve to be told the truth now if that is legally possible.
Whatever he is busy with, those players are jobless or taking 75 pc cuts in wages to play. 'He is busy' sounds like he is bullshitting, frankly. What is making him so busy that he doesn't have half an hour to talk to explain what happened to those players who are now jobless? If my employer caused me to take a job at even half my current wage I would not be accepting that they were too busy to explain. Neither will the players and staff.
The defence of a man who must be aware that silence looks awful is odd to me. I am sure that many are willing to listen and give him their ears, I am one of them, but if he says nothing, it will say everything. You simply cannot be too busy to explain when jobs have gone. You can be legally tied up, but not too busy. So if he is keen to talk, now is the time.
I'm with you on this. I met Derek a couple of times, we were at the 1st match at the Ricoh and in almost 8 years I think we missed about 2 home games, went to a number of away matches, I think our 3rd match was away at Quins in Europe, which we won, we went to A-league, a couple of academy matches etc. at the A-League match in Glos we met Derek and his wife and he was so pleased to see us there, there wasn't a big crowd, but all the non-playing 1st team players were there having been bused in, and he was saying thank you for coming thanks for the support etc it was obvious he has a strong love of Wasps and the club and was very enthusiastic about everything, so I did have a lot of support for Derek.
Like others, when the whole Worcester thing kicked off, I was very much in the opinion that despite our issues at Wasps at least it wasn't that, an asset grab with underhand dealings etc
However as things progress, it is starting to feel not much different, all the debt against the rugby club who were allowed to go to the wall to write off that debt, allegedly a substantial part of that debt was to pay back money to Derek, a training ground purportedly paid for by CVC money, suddenly being owned by Chris Holland, where was the sale of that recorded, and for how much?
The sale of the CBS, not sure how much if any debt sits against ACL, actually, just had a look at their Companies house info. Derek wasn't a director until August this year, interesting, I'm not an accountant, but it looks like they make a profit each year (£6.3M in 2020 and £8.2M in 2019), in fact in the latest accounts available (upto June 2020) they paid out share capital of £3.5M! For a business with the parent company (Wasps Holdings) losing a lot of money that seems very strange.
They owe Wasps Finance £14.5M which was due to be paid back this year (2022). They also owed Derek £1.9M. Interesting that they used Orion Securities, a company Chris Holland has an interest in, and paid them around £56k in 2020 and £86k in 2019. I guess the £14.5M is why they are speaking to administrators, as the balance sheet shows assets of £45M so the CBS is owned by ACL as a business, but the bond, secured against the CBS sits with Wasps Holdings, not sure I understand that, but as I said I'm not an accountant so really don't fully understand this stuff.
As WWW says, Derek needs to come out and explain things as he isn't doing himself any favours if there is nothing underhand, when there are reports he has turned down potential offers to keep things going.
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Ashley now owns the CBSA. No idea how /if that affects us.
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Also interesting to note that William Storey of Rich Energy notoriety was in Court this morning. If he is involved, then all I can say to Coventry City fans is good luck.
For those who don't know who he is, the F1 equivalent of Squidge Rugby has done a couple of videos on him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuoYkNyYaBY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4G9h-eO1nE
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I must be a sad, sad person to find the responses of CCFC fans on Twitter to be satisfying. They must've thought they had the stadium in the bag once Wasps left.
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I must be a sad, sad person to find the responses of CCFC fans on Twitter to be satisfying. They must've thought they had the stadium in the bag once Wasps left.
+1
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Plus another one.
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Interesting that Mr Ashley's representative had no mention of working (potentially) Wasps but did mention the fall over merchants.
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Yes, noticed that. I think the comment may have been a thinly veiled message to sisu that he will shortly be after the club. Whether he wants us as tenants is unknown (should we exist of course).
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I did see a comment early on from him that he was keen to work with both clubs.
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Now that Yob’s Direct is now formally known as the Fraser’s Group, my understanding is that this is part of a wider strategy to move up market (whilst retaining the Sports Direct fan base). I wonder whether having involvements with both rugby and football could, respectively, prove helpful on those fronts.