Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: COYW15 on October 29, 2022, 07:55:17 PM
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https://twitter.com/stephenjones9/status/1586428863848275969?s=46&t=mFW_yG7C3Uodi0g0FP2fjA
Wasps saviours gather. Joint administrators have agreed to sell to new group formed of Wasps Legends, ex-owners and others. It’s subject to contract and a green light from RFU but Wasps fans can plan ahead for next season.
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I wonder who has the money? At least one of them must.
Now they need some players, as few 'coaches' as possible (watching the borefest that the Prem was this and last week, caused IMHO by pro coaching micro management and awful officiating), and a ground.
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Just hope this is not another false dawn.
Please please please.
And get the DCMS to pressure for the p share to not be forfeited.
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Saw some Wasps Legends twatter earlier this week that was a kind of "watch this space"
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Pleasd God......... Please
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But where?
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But where?
My immediate thought, based on nothing, was if it is a group of legends etc. they would want to bring the club back towards London. Fingers crossed.
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Don't care where. Just care that it is.
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Forget where but I saw a podcast early this week with Chris Wright and Rigby etc chatting. Two plus two =3.99
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It's behind this pay wall link if anyone has access
https://twitter.com/TimesSport/status/1586433014829121536?t=ALbe0Xsx8Z_eCZveZR4pfQ&s=19
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https://archive.ph/A9DIM
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That gets you there.
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Wasps: Consortium of former players close to rescue deal
Stephen Jones
Saturday October 29 2022, 7.30pm BST, The Sunday Times
Wasps will be able to play in the Championship next season if investment can be secured
REUTERS
The prospect of Wasps being back in business has grown significantly after a consortium that includes several distinguished former players had an offer accepted by the club’s joint-administrators to buy the men’s team and the successful academy.
The RFU confirmed on Friday that Wasps were suspended from the Premiership for the rest of the season, with results expunged — formalising their relegation — after the club entered administration and made 167 players and staff redundant.
The six-times Premiership winners can play in the Championship next season if suitable investment is found and a group featuring members of the Wasps’ Legends organisation has stepped forward to provide it.
The consortium is expected to take steps to hire a number of senior coaching staff, with the aim of building a squad capable of competing next season.
Andrew Sheridan, joint-administrator and partner at FRP Advisory, said: “The consortium knows that it still has to meet all of the RFU requirements, including the fit and proper owners’ test and the presentation of a three-to-five-year business plan, with supporting robust financial forecasts, and that this needs to completed as soon as is practical in order to be in a position to play next season. However, this deal is a significant step forward, and one that we all hope will allow Wasps Rugby to live on.
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“We have informed the RFU about this development and the consortium is fully aware of the rugby creditors’ rules, as set out in Regulation 5 by the RFU [the new venture would have to pay up debts still owed by the club]. We understand that the consortium will seek to work with the RFU, the RPA and their members to reach a reasonable conclusion on those matters.”
Separate discussions are being conducted regarding the women’s team and Wasps Netball and the joint-administrators are expected to provide further updates in due course.
This development follows the announcement of a new panel of financiers that has been formed to save English rugby’s other stricken club, Worcester Warriors, led by their former director of rugby Steve Diamond.
If Wasps and Worcester, who are also suspended, take their places in the Championship next season, they could play in a proposed new competition comprising all ten Premiership teams and ten second-tier clubs. That would take place in international windows — especially during the Six Nations and autumn internationals — with the aim of improving the Championship and decreasing the number of league matches for which the Test players are not available.
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The new relationship between the leagues would almost certainly boost the second tier, the quality of which has been improving at a steady rate with the likes of Jersey Reds, Doncaster Knights, Coventry and Ealing Trailfinders.
The Championship has an as-yet untapped potential to bring forward the next wave of players, referees, administrators, groundsmen and to attract local fans.
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Not sure, but I think the preferred option would be Coventry at the moment as a lot of the facilities are here but will depend on who gets their hands on the stadium and if they want Wasps there.
Would make sense if they are still to use the training centre and can re-sign some players and coaches/staff as they will all be local as well.
Resetting up the Academy would also be a key for the future of the club.
Not all of the "Legends" are London based anymore to be fair and the business would be a lot cheaper to run in Coventry than in London as long as they could get the Funding support.
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Scrivs is based on the Wirral. He does seem to be one of the key players in the Legends.
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I shall dig out my wasps legends hoodie
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Don’t really mind where. Existence is the key. Can build from there. Literally the first positive news for weeks - very welcome.
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Doing the journey to London won't put me off going to games. Just need Wasps back!!
Obviously this is subject to this being true!
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Shugs, Neils, Colonel - everyone ....... it's looking good and a lot more hopeful isn't it. :D
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Keeping everything crossed, hope we can take a few players with us as well, that would be icing on the cake
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Crossed fingers behind the back.
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We could really do with keeping that P Share. That'd help pay for one or two decent players.
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Don’t think it will happen VV. But if we can rebuild out of this mess and one day get back to the top level I hope we’re as rigid on the issue as those currently in possession of top flight places.
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https://twitter.com/WaspsRugbyNews/status/1586480470249787392?t=UO_iT5Y76cpp0GoHvorRYw&s=19 (https://twitter.com/WaspsRugbyNews/status/1586480470249787392?t=UO_iT5Y76cpp0GoHvorRYw&s=19)
So the offer has been accepted??!
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By the administrator.
The RFU still has to sign off on the business plan which has to include paying off "rugby debts", whatever that means.
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Certainty hugely positive news, I do not care what level or location we play at as long as we are playing. I am happy to fans on a muddy pitch line in freezing conditions in Surrey 4 as long as the lads in black and gold are back.
One thing I am certain about though is we do not need the CBS. If we have learnt one thing it really is true that rugby teams do not need a stadium of that size. Let’s be more modest, find a location that fits us. A smaller stadium with a 10,001 capacity will be more than enough.
Let’s start afresh, the club has never been about its location but about all of us. Once a Wasp always a Wasp is a truly powerful entity and that is what will see us through. (Although a few quid to get the kit in and the turnstiles turning will not go amiss!)
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Does anyone else remember the lasdt time we almost went pop, and Riggers did his White Knight act? We were told to assemble in the Beer Tent where Riggers brought us up to date, and then lead us in (at least) two rousing rounds of The Waspie Bonnet Song. Never forgotten that. :D
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What is actually classed as rugby related debts and does anyone know roughly how much it is?
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Would stadium debts be classed as rugby debts.
For me it has to be away from Coventry, I will never go there again. I would love it to be about 45 minutes away from where I live, in a stadium that holds no more then 12,500 - perfect.
I appreciate we just need to come back as a team but we don’t need to make silly mistakes again.
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It's the hope that kills.
Personally I hope Wasps play up the road from me and bugger everyone else! 😀
In reality if we are offered the CBSA I think we will continue to play there. We will revert to being tenants of whoever(a bit like CCFC). Unless one of those touted as part of a takeover has a pitch in their back pocket I cannot see anyone being interested in us. For the record I have a 2 to 3 hour journey each way to get to Coventry!
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It's like not being well - it really is the hope that really makes things hurt. I'm not sure I care where, just so long as.....I'm over 2 hours away - assuming all goes well - so most prospective stadiums are going to be some distance - a train line would be great....
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Where ever we play, we need to stay in relatively close distance to the EPIC. Either that or find something else entirely.
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I would have thought that the ex owner is most likely to be Chris Wright. If memory serves me right, we’ve only ever had three owners since the members owned the club. The most recent, DR, saw us enter administration. The one before him, Steve Hayes, cut us loose once we no longer served his purpose. That would seem to leave Chris Wright as the possible interested party.
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Just need confirmation please, we are in administration not insolvency, therefore we don’t need to follow the phoenix entity and therefore have to stay at CBS arena
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Consortium of former Wasps players close to takeover deal
An offer has been accepted to save Wasps and the aim is now to compete in the Championship next season
By
Charles Richardson,
RUGBY REPORTER
29 October 2022 • 9:26pm
Consortium of former Wasps players close to takeover deal
The chances of Wasps returning in the Championship next season grew significantly on Saturday as the joint administrators of the suspended club confirmed that a takeover offer had been accepted by a consortium which includes former players.
FRP Advisory, the joint administrators of Wasps Holdings Limited, have confirmed that, subject to contract, an offer has been accepted for both the men's rugby team and its accompanying academy. That offer was made by a consortium comprising members of the Wasps Legends, a charity foundation that is linked to the club. The group expect to hire a number of senior coaching staff in the coming days "with the aim of building a squad capable of competing at the top level next season".
Andrew Sheridan, Joint Administrator and Partner at FRP Advisory, said: “The consortium knows that it still has to meet all of the RFU requirements, including the fit and proper owners test and the presentation of a 3-5 year business plan with supporting robust financial forecasts, and that this needs to completed as soon as is practical in order to be in a position to play next season. However, this deal is a significant step forward, and one that we all hope will allow Wasps Rugby to live on.
“We have informed the RFU about this development and the consortium is fully aware of the rugby creditors rules as set out in Regulation 5 by the RFU. We understand that the consortium will seek to work with the RFU, the RPA and their members to reach a reasonable conclusion on those matters.”
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The Rugby Football Union on Friday announced that Wasps had been suspended from the Premiership for the rest of the season, after the club entered administration and made 167 players and staff redundant earlier this month. The West Midlands club's results were expunged and the RFU added that they had been relegated from English rugby's top tier.
Even before the joint administrators' announcement, however, the RFU's statement did paint an optimistic picture: "The RFU’s Club Financial Viability Group is encouraged by the progress made by the administrators and it has taken the decision to suspend the team in order to support the prospect of securing a deal with the right investor and giving the club the best chance for a long term sustainable future."
The joint administrators added that separate discussions are ongoing in regards to Wasps Women and Wasps Netball and further updates will be provided in due course.
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In terms of the “where” debate I imagine they’ll want to be close to the EPIC. The coaches and players they will approach will likely be from the existing group who presumably live locally and also they’ll have ambition to progress back to the top flight with its criteria having to be met. Tenant at the CBS is logical but seems likely midlands.
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Would stadium debts be classed as rugby debts.
For me it has to be away from Coventry, I will never go there again. I would love it to be about 45 minutes away from where I live, in a stadium that holds no more then 12,500 - perfect.
I appreciate we just need to come back as a team but we don’t need to make silly mistakes again.
I'd like to think they aren't. They ran the stadium as a separate business and it didn't go in to administration as part of the club.
My guess, or what I'd like to think, is that rugby related debts refers to things like paying players and staff, any back rents and other creditors related directly to playing rugby. If the HRMC bill is for things like income tax and employer and employee NI that probably falls in to the category of rugby debt and would need a plan to be paid off.
But this is the RFU so who knows what they'll make up on the spot how they'll interpret their own rules.
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I wonder if a ground share with someone like Birmingham City FC would be on the cards. Closer to the EPIC and I would have thought better transport links from outside the midlands. Still 29,000 capacity though
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I’ve personally never been, but the Birmingham City fans I know don’t speak kindly of St Andrews - not sure it’s somewhere we would want to end up!
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Not sure if much has changed (I doubt it) but St Andrews is falling apart. Some sections of the ground were blocked off due to structural issues.
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I've not watched a single game since Wasps folded, as I can't bring myself to. Frankly I don't care as long as it happens, I've supported them from London and Wycombe to Cov and will in Timbuktu if necessary...just as long as there is a club. If we can keep the core squad together as well,- even better. Everything is crossed this is not a false dawn !
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If Oxford United do build their new stadium at Kidlington, there's always the Kassam.
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We could really do with keeping that P Share. That'd help pay for one or two decent players.
Are the P shares not also secured against the bond? If so, presumably it means that the bond would have to be redeemed in order for for Wasps to keep their P shares?
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BBC eventually -
Wasps: Offer to buy Premiership club accepted by joint administrators - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63447055
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The RFU requirements: paper scissors stone, best of three.
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[size=78%]Has there been any word on how the championship view this?[/size]
They may have us, worcester and another relegated team next season, without anyone getting promoted.
Would they just relegate 3 teams to make space for us?
I assume they have the right to refuse us entry to the championship?
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The RFU requirements: paper scissors stone, best of three.
Is that the words at the top of the new EA stand?
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Reading The Cov Tel's suggestion of Lee as DoR, and Matt as Head Coach the idea is very appealing.
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[size=78%]Has there been any word on how the championship view this?[/size]
They may have us, worcester and another relegated team next season, without anyone getting promoted.
Would they just relegate 3 teams to make space for us?
I assume they have the right to refuse us entry to the championship?
Can't imagine that going down well with the 2 additional clubs relegated if they did that!
I can't see it being remotely practical for another club to be relegated from the premiership this season with 2 clubs having already gone pop. Surely just a matter of time before they announce that.
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[size=78%]Has there been any word on how the championship view this?[/size]
They may have us, worcester and another relegated team next season, without anyone getting promoted.
Would they just relegate 3 teams to make space for us?
I assume they have the right to refuse us entry to the championship?
Can't imagine that going down well with the 2 additional clubs relegated if they did that!
I can't see it being remotely practical for another club to be relegated from the premiership this season with 2 clubs having already gone pop. Surely just a matter of time before they announce that.
As they're making this up as they go along don't expect any deeply thought through strategy that addresses these issues.
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If we start a school of thought on here that a 16 team league is the way forward it will probably be their stated policy within a month. Or we could just pay Baxter a sack of cash to publicly state he thinks we should be allowed back in.
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Reading The Cov Tel's suggestion of Lee as DoR, and Matt as Head Coach the idea is very appealing.
I don't think we should forget the fact that we have deen delivering mediocre uninspiring rugby unde Lee for quite some time now. If the financial disaster hadn't happened I suspect we'd all be arguing about whether he should be sacked.
I want to be able to carry on supporting my club, but I want them to play the way we should play and be a quality side.
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LoL circumspect on BT - but positive. Involved???
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Should clarify - I am watching Cardiff v Edinburgh (YY in great form). His words appeared on a twatter somewhere.
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LoL circumspect on BT - but positive. Involved???
Very possible but, even if he's not, I'd imagine he knows what's going on in the background.
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Really? We’ve been down that road before. I think by far his best policy is to not verbalise anything.
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Really? We’ve been down that road before. I think by far his best policy is to not verbalise anything.
Which is roughly his point!
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If Oxford United do build their new stadium at Kidlington, there's always the Kassam.
Heard rumour not that long ago that Leamington FC were looking to move again, Location and site that would need to be developed to create a decent facility but an option.
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Diamonds bid for Worcester not the Administrator's chosen bid.
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LoL circumspect on BT - but positive. Involved???
Having been a director of business that has gone down the tubes. should he really be involved in the Phoenix enterprise?
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Also reported that they want Lee as DoR and Matt Everard in the coaching team.
Personally, IMHO, Lee took us as far as he could. Need someone else to take the DoR's mantle.
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If Oxford United do build their new stadium at Kidlington, there's always the Kassam.
Heard rumour not that long ago that Leamington FC were looking to move again, Location and site that would need to be developed to create a decent facility but an option.
They are supposed to be moving out of the Harbury Lane site already (the site near the Fosse Way), to a new site on Gallows Hill (basically the same road, but in Warwick), very close to Warwick School. However, I saw a new BMW dealership being built there now. It would be an awful location for traffic jams.
At some point, HS2 will have to clean up the big site they have a bit further up the Fosse Way.
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Also reported that they want Lee as DoR and Matt Everard in the coaching team.
Personally, IMHO, Lee took us as far as he could. Need someone else to take the DoR's mantle.
While I've not particularly been a huge fan of him as our DOR, if this all did happen and he came back in the role, I'd be happy with him reaching the same ceiling as before (i.e. reaching premiership finals)
We're going to be a completely different entity in a completely different league than we were before.
If he's available and interested, I would be willing to view him with a clean slate
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Also reported that they want Lee as DoR and Matt Everard in the coaching team.
Personally, IMHO, Lee took us as far as he could. Need someone else to take the DoR's mantle.
While I've not particularly been a huge fan of him as our DOR, if this all did happen and he came back in the role, I'd be happy with him reaching the same ceiling as before (i.e. reaching premiership finals)
We're going to be a completely different entity in a completely different league than we were before.
If he's available and interested, I would be willing to view him with a clean slate
The other thing is he knows the Championship and the players. Also he is a Wasp! I expect the finances will be fairly restrictive.
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If Matt could do as good a job as head Coach as he did with the Academy and continued to that vein in would be good for us all.
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Yeah, I would expect Lee to be there- he will be able to attract some of the academy players I suspect. Honestly, I think there were two coaching issues, aside from the general issue of all teams being potentially over coached. Firstly, we kept blowing up big leads, which is psychological and perhaps tactical with some dodgy subs.
Secondly, we recruited up front really well, but as you will see from our players who do and don't pick up contract, lots of teams have brilliant back rows. We marvel at the Willises, especially J's turnovers and T's ball carrying, but most teams have a brilliant ball carrier. Josh, a hard working wing, is in many ways less surprising in being picked up. I think Lee very much wanted the forward platform, and was constrained by cash and thus bought up front where he could. Unsurprisingly the backs lacked fizz these past 12 months but I felt we were heading in the right direction this year, but we kept having one or two backs per game who had nightmares one week and excelled the next.
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Lee was very good at identifying talent in the Championship and that’s what we’re going to need for a few seasons. Perhaps DoR rather than head coach might be a good position for him.
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Very much a good spotter of talent.
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I often wonder if a head coach who used to be a back feels that he can coach the backs to improve whereas he needs to buy in better forwards,...
And a coach who used to be a forward fancies that he can improve the forwards, but needs to buy in talented backs
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I think we look to keep both Everard and Blackett on. Use their knowledge of the academy and the champ to get things right.
We would hopefully keep the academy players and maybe one or two seniors.
If the likes of Fislau, Ma'asi White, Bacon, Kuecka, Hartley, maybe WHW, Vukasinovic, Cardall, Bell, Hardwick, McArthur, Monye, Eckersley, Tunney, Brown etc would be willing to hang about we could form a pretty handy squad.
We also have to remember, how many of these players would be keen to get a nailed down starting spot with a club that has intentions of getting back to Prem. Not many would get that chance. I'd also loan like mad, players like Illione, Lewis Chessum etc to help fill some gaps for us.
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I'm talking out of the back of my hat as usual but I do wonder if we might not see quite a few of our Seniors (who are right now in alternative employment at other clubs) coming back to Wasps next season if/when Things get sorted out. Of course it could just be wishful thinking. And hoping. Many players won't wish to return for a variety of reasons. But you can dream, can't you.
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I'm talking out of the back of my hat as usual but I do wonder if we might not see quite a few of our Seniors (who are right now in alternative employment at other clubs) coming back to Wasps next season if/when Things get sorted out. Of course it could just be wishful thinking. And hoping. Many players won't wish to return for a variety of reasons. But you can dream, can't you.
I'd like to think we will get quite a few seniors back provided that there are the funds there to pay them. A lot of the Wasps that have gone to other clubs have gone as medical jokers or on deals until the end of this season. So, there's always the chance - as long as the stars align!
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I'm talking out of the back of my hat as usual but I do wonder if we might not see quite a few of our Seniors (who are right now in alternative employment at other clubs) coming back to Wasps next season if/when Things get sorted out. Of course it could just be wishful thinking. And hoping. Many players won't wish to return for a variety of reasons. But you can dream, can't you.
I'd like to think we will get quite a few seniors back provided that there are the funds there to pay them. A lot of the Wasps that have gone to other clubs have gone as medical jokers or on deals until the end of this season. So, there's always the chance - as long as the stars align!
Also there are a number on "hospital" signings.
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I personally don't care where wasps play or who coaches them, just that they are playing in the championship next season & not going the way of London Welsh
Some people on this board need to remember that beggars can't be choosers ;)
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Lee was very good at identifying talent in the Championship and that’s what we’re going to need for a few seasons. Perhaps DoR rather than head coach might be a good position for him.
It’s unlikely Wasps are going to have the luxury of a DOR, Head Coach and others.
I’d love to see Lee stay on.
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I think the possibility of us bouncing back up is probably quite far fetched. These are going to be lean times as if the cupboard was bare before, we're now rebuilding the walls before putting another, home made, cupboard back in.
But we're back to the pre Coventry problem. No stadium, no income. So how that gets sold to the RFU for them to approve the business plan is going to be a challenge.
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Is there a salary cap in the Championship? Might be a struggle to afford all the players that we would like. It’s not like we can look to the EAs for an honourable benchmark of how to handle relegation.
Mind you, we went end up the Baxter’s 10 Team Premiership, with fewer fixtures and smaller squads, then a number of players will need to step down to the championship.
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Is there a salary cap in the Championship? Might be a struggle to afford all the players that we would like. It’s not like we can look to the EAs for an honourable benchmark of how to handle relegation.
Mind you, we went end up the Baxter’s 10 Team Premiership, with fewer fixtures and smaller squads, then a number of players will need to step down to the championship.
I don't think there is a salary cap per se, but to be promoted to the Premiership, a club would have to prove that it operated within the salary cap for, I think, one season?
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I think the possibility of us bouncing back up is probably quite far fetched. These are going to be lean times as if the cupboard was bare before, we're now rebuilding the walls before putting another, home made, cupboard back in.
But we're back to the pre Coventry problem. No stadium, no income. So how that gets sold to the RFU for them to approve the business plan is going to be a challenge.
No doubt we will find out in due course.
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I think the possibility of us bouncing back up is probably quite far fetched. These are going to be lean times as if the cupboard was bare before, we're now rebuilding the walls before putting another, home made, cupboard back in.
But we're back to the pre Coventry problem. No stadium, no income. So how that gets sold to the RFU for them to approve the business plan is going to be a challenge.
No doubt we will find out in due course.
I think due course may well be a while with the RFU involved!
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Well, they know they don't have to worry about it until some-time until the start of next season!
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That's correct as I understand it.
No salary cap, but you have to abide by it if you wish to get promoted.
I don't know how much other championship clubs spend on salaries, but if we expect to have a squad of 40 players, then £50k each (average) would be £2 million per year.
Given that we'll be renting a stadium and paying for all other staff and running costs too, I can't imagine we can afford to go completely overboard on salaries.
And I can't imagine that too many of our previous senior players would be happy playing for £50k'ish per year.
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My concerns about a consortium is who makes the final decisions or do they appoint a CEO who then makes decisions. How many senior players would be happy to play in the Championship? at a reduced salary. Can we afford top players? how much money does the consortium have?
A lot of questions need answering, its likely to be a long rocky road that could go nowhere.
Fingers crossed things work out but it does seem a lot of very high hurdles in the way. Hopefully as the weeks/months go by we will get more answers. It definitely isn't a done deal.
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Many of the players made redundant will not be signed by other clubs. Would they be prepared to continue at Wasps, in the Championship, at reduced wages or to give up professional rugby entirely? Depends I suppose if they have some other arrows in their quiver.
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I don't know personally, but I have been informed that nearer to £1 million would be a typical salary expense in the Championship.
In general squads are smaller (Coventry have 32 players listed in their first team squad and 7 Development) and there are quite a few Premiership Loanees at some clubs (as we knew with Wasps) and I think there are only say 3 or 4 fully "full time professional clubs" (although there may be more that that now).
Lots of things to fall in to place I know but at least things seem to be happening and "good" people are trying.
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Thank you Colonel ...... good thinking and interesting too. Agree on your last paragraph. And now - back to Christmas cards and present wrapping; it takes so much longer these days!!
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Bloody hell Wonky, you're keen! Will you be handing out mince pies to the trick or treaters this evening? :)
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She be late in the cards task!!
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Oh bless you DGP! No, it's just that having slowed down rather it takes me a helluva lot longer to do things ..... anything!! Writing about 140 addresses not to mention letters takes absolute yonks, and not many men are keen on 'doing' Christmas cards. Presents I cheat with and bung 'em in a fancy bag.
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Cheeky kids!
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Morning all... been away and catching up on the Wasps news feels like we're in a much better place than we were a couple of weeks back.
Good to see both us and Worcester being "saved", and plans being laid for next season.
I know there's other threads about it but seeing the lads signing for other sides en masse (as opposed to the usual churn post-season) is pretty rough. Great news for them, but Josh in a Quins shirt... Charlie in a Tigers one... oof.
Anyway, just checking in really. Looking forward to next season now!
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Morning all... been away and catching up on the Wasps news feels like we're in a much better place than we were a couple of weeks back.
Good to see both us and Worcester being "saved", and plans being laid for next season.
I know there's other threads about it but seeing the lads signing for other sides en masse (as opposed to the usual churn post-season) is pretty rough. Great news for them, but Josh in a Quins shirt... Charlie in a Tigers one... oof.
Anyway, just checking in really. Looking forward to next season now!
Being a natural pessimist, I'm not counting my chickens just yet.
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At last, a legal article about how the new club can get back playing, with RFU approval:
http://rugbyandthelaw.com/2022/11/01/worcester-warriors-wasps-rugby-creditors-rule-rfu-premiership-administration-insolvency-takeover/
It covers what a rugby creditor is:
“Rugby Creditor” means players, ex-players, coaches, medics, physiotherapists, strength and conditioning coaches and any other employee of a Club, referees, other rugby clubs or rugby bodies in England or elsewhere, the RFU and any RFU subsidiary or associated undertaking, any Constituent Body and any other person or entity whose income is wholly reliant on a Club and who directly supports the ability of that Club to play rugby.
There is a LOT of debt not covered by that, which I assume will get wiped clean. It does not include ticket holders. It looks like it does not include indirect employees either.
I am pleased the players will, in effect, be paid for this season. I wonder if they have to offset earnings from new contracts?
It also says that they have to be able to show they can play at the current ground (the CBS Arena) for at least next season (and beyond). So, at least two seasons.
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To be honest, I’m surprised that the definition of Rugby Related Debt extends beyond the RFU and its subsidiaries. Would have thought that the self-serving pr1cks that supposedly run out game would only be interested in themselves — and I’m not sure this would really be the case if push came to shove.
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NWW. When you say players have to be paid for this season I assume you mean the portion of it they played? If so I’m sure I read they were paid until end of Sept so that debt should be minimal. The CBSA criteria could be a deal breaker given the quagmire that negotiation seems to have become. Aside from the obvious cash needed that could become a big stumbling block.
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NWW. When you say players have to be paid for this season I assume you mean the portion of it they played? If so I’m sure I read they were paid until end of Sept so that debt should be minimal. The CBSA criteria could be a deal breaker given the quagmire that negotiation seems to have become. Aside from the obvious cash needed that could become a big stumbling block.
From how I read that, they have to be paid all of the season per their contracts. But, who knows? The wording is a bit woolly.
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Ah, ok. So bigger debt but a possible retention tool in that with a years wages paid they may not have to go elsewhere. Take your point in terms of if that is what is meant.
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NWW. When you say players have to be paid for this season I assume you mean the portion of it they played? If so I’m sure I read they were paid until end of Sept so that debt should be minimal. The CBSA criteria could be a deal breaker given the quagmire that negotiation seems to have become. Aside from the obvious cash needed that could become a big stumbling block.
From how I read that, they have to be paid all of the season per their contracts. But, who knows? The wording is a bit woolly.
Agreed. However I think any money received from other contracts and even statutory redundancy will offset the liability. The players and other staff just need to be "made whole".
However, given how capricious the RFU and PRL can be I wouldn't be surprised if that's not the case.
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Would employment law really care about sporting seasons?
I would have thought that they'd either have to pay for the entire length of the contract, or ensure they they've been paid pro rata for the have they've played
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I suppose it will depend what the contract says. I would assume that not sports staff will be on something like 1 or 3 month notice periods key sports staff eg physios, might have an end of season clause.
I don’t know how it works with players. They normally move at the end of seasons and their might be some sort of force majeure end of season clause.
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Apologies if it has been posted elsewhere but have Wasps & Warriors both actually had their P shares removed or is that still to be decided?
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Apologies if it has been posted elsewhere but have Wasps & Warriors both actually had their P shares removed or is that still to be decided?
Not yet
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Would employment law really care about sporting seasons?
I would have thought that they'd either have to pay for the entire length of the contract, or ensure they they've been paid pro rata for the have they've played
I read somewhere that 75% of the playing staff had a contract that expired at the end of this season anyway.
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I think it was a comment from Lee when he was talking about how difficult getting new players and retention had been.
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The only contracts signed in the last year were:
Tom West
Rodriguez Martinez
Zac Nearchou
Michael Van Vuren
Vincent Koch
John Ryan
Biyi Alo
Cam Dodson
Kiran McDonald
Theo Vuksanovic
Will Haydon-Wood
Olly Hartley
Burger Odendaal
Francois Hougaard.
Some of those may have been for 1 year.
All the other players' contracts would almost certainly be up this season.
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Suddenly I feel less hopeful of a good outcome for Wasps' survival, but hope it's just a passing mood. Is Ashley actually going to take over d'you think? If so, I hope it actually won't happen.
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Suddenly I feel less hopeful of a good outcome for Wasps' survival, but hope it's just a passing mood. Is Ashley actually going to take over d'you think? If so, I hope it actually won't happen.
I think that he will take over the Arena, yes. I think he will leave everything in tickover mode for this and next season, while he negotiates use of land around the arena and in Ansty.
In the background, he might talk with SISU about buying CCFC, but he will not pay a silly price, so that is far from a done deal. He might then turn his attention to Wasps in the 2024/25 season.
He has stepped back from managing the stores part of his empire, so he may be looking for a project, and it is said that he likes the idea of owning a casino.
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Suddenly I feel less hopeful of a good outcome for Wasps' survival, but hope it's just a passing mood. Is Ashley actually going to take over d'you think? If so, I hope it actually won't happen.
I think that he will take over the Arena, yes. I think he will leave everything in tickover mode for this and next season, while he negotiates use of land around the arena and in Ansty.
In the background, he might talk with SISU about buying CCFC, but he will not pay a silly price, so that is far from a done deal. He might then turn his attention to Wasps in the 2024/25 season.
He has stepped back from managing the stores part of his empire, so he may be looking for a project, and it is said that he likes the idea of owning a casino.
Totally agree with this scenario.
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Thank you both gentlemen. That makes things a lot clearer
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Suddenly I feel less hopeful of a good outcome for Wasps' survival, but hope it's just a passing mood. Is Ashley actually going to take over d'you think? If so, I hope it actually won't happen.
I think that he will take over the Arena, yes. I think he will leave everything in tickover mode for this and next season, while he negotiates use of land around the arena and in Ansty.
In the background, he might talk with SISU about buying CCFC, but he will not pay a silly price, so that is far from a done deal. He might then turn his attention to Wasps in the 2024/25 season.
He has stepped back from managing the stores part of his empire, so he may be looking for a project, and it is said that he likes the idea of owning a casino.
Totally agree with this scenario.
Except the land in Ansty is Rugby Borough Council not Coventry City and the amount he is intending to develop there far exceeds anything at the Arena.
He has shown he wants to own a footie team again with his failed bid to buy DCFC but he is not an idiot where money is concerned and IM sure that he can see that minus the bond debt the Arena on its own could be a good money making business. Does he want a Rugby team ....who knows but I doubt it. Does he want CCFC .....possibly.
Wasps need to look elsewhere for a long term ground. I'm not sure it will do Cov Rugby or Wasps any good to have two championship teams in one small city and Wasps in the Champ may only get 2-3k crowds. We would look totally lost just using one stand at the Arena. How bad was it for the Prem Cup games this year? Wasps might be better off as tenants of another Rugby club such as Mossley or other lower league local club for first XV home games for a couple of years whilst they find their feet and seek a better solution for a long term facility. Where though, Ive no idea.
Sharing with a lower league or non league footie club will not work because the pitch quality just wont be good enough to take the rugby and footie wear.
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Agree. He’ll buy the stadium and it could get messy between him and sisu. If our takeover goes through I can see us as tenants which wouldn’t be a disaster given where we’ve been the last few weeks. It may be those taking over have a different idea altogether but there seem to be a few logical reasons (epic, squad location) to play at the CBS. Frasers stated in the Telegraph they are committed to both teams playing there which of course could be encouraging talk while it plays out. To be frank give me existence over non existence and there are few, if any scenarios I’d turn down.
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I think in our apparent precarious position a year or two to stabilise at the JD Sports Arena would not be a bad thing. However would agree that there would be a need to keep an eye open for opportunities to develop elswhere.
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Totally agree Neils. Two years there - negotiate as lower rent as possible and incur minimal if any capital outlay. Rebuild the team. Try and get promoted. Then look about.
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Given that somehow somewhere we find the cash?
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Given that somehow somewhere we find the cash?
Bit difficult in this cashless society we are being forced to adopt! :)
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Totally agree Neils. Two years there - negotiate as lower rent as possible and incur minimal if any capital outlay. Rebuild the team. Try and get promoted. Then look about.
These things seems contradictory.
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Totally agree Neils. Two years there - negotiate as lower rent as possible and incur minimal if any capital outlay. Rebuild the team. Try and get promoted. Then look about.
These things seems contradictory.
Explain
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I think that if we survive and have a season in The Championship we'll be playing at the EPIC with the CBS as a fallback option to move to if we got promoted.
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Clutching at straws here. Anyone have any clue as to how long the RFU take to complete their deliberations?
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Totally agree Neils. Two years there - negotiate as lower rent as possible and incur minimal if any capital outlay. Rebuild the team. Try and get promoted. Then look about.
These things seems contradictory.
Explain
At a guess, in order to get promotion, we are going to spend some cash. In order to put a squad together, we will need to have a fair outlay.
I would hazard a guess at us needing to assemble a young core, but also there will be a need for some signings that would not be out of place in the prem.
Problem will be what happens if the 10 or 11 remaining clubs ring-fence.
I honestly cannot see a long term future for Wasps unless they can see a route to the top table.
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Clutching at straws here. Anyone have any clue as to how long the RFU take to complete their deliberations?
Until the bar runs out of gin?
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Totally agree Neils. Two years there - negotiate as lower rent as possible and incur minimal if any capital outlay. Rebuild the team. Try and get promoted. Then look about.
These things seems contradictory.
Capital as in infrastructure, repairs, stadia purchases. Wages etc are normal revenue costs - can’t get away without incurring those obviously!
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Totally agree Neils. Two years there - negotiate as lower rent as possible and incur minimal if any capital outlay. Rebuild the team. Try and get promoted. Then look about.
These things seems contradictory.
Explain
At a guess, in order to get promotion, we are going to spend some cash. In order to put a squad together, we will need to have a fair outlay.
I would hazard a guess at us needing to assemble a young core, but also there will be a need for some signings that would not be out of place in the prem.
Problem will be what happens if the 10 or 11 remaining clubs ring-fence.
I honestly cannot see a long term future for Wasps unless they can see a route to the top table.
Yes, pretty much this. We are a failed brand, and if we want a squad capable of getting back to the Premiership we are going to need to pay over the odds to get players who are rightly going to be worried about the security of their wages.
Does the MSC not require primacy of tenure anymore for newly promoted clubs?
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The RFU rules for allowing a Pheoenix club back in to play either in the Premiership or Championship are that they play in their current stadium for the first season and 'beyond', meaning at least two seasons.
Thus, unless we want to drop lower than that, the CBS Arena it is.
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Genuine query Nelly - do Them Above not make any exceptions in extenuating circumstances? Anyone, not just Wasps?
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Genuine query Nelly - do Them Above not make any exceptions in extenuating circumstances? Anyone, not just Wasps?
Rules is rules. Not everyone can be James T Kirk and ignore them when it suits.
However, from a philosophical POV, all rules/laws results in unintended consequences.
I read yesterday of a guy in prison in the USA, been there for years, is actually innocent of the crime for which he was imprisoned, and the District Attorney agrees that is so, because in America you can only appeal a fixed number of times, and he ran out of appeals he could lodge before the Supreme Court made a ruling that made him innocent. Without an appeal, he cannot be released, and the Supreme Court seems unwilling to allow him to be released. Why? The rules on the number of appeals was introduced to stop bored criminals constantly lodging appeals and blocking up the courts. Rules lead to unintended consequences.
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That is madness. Also in USA one chap had been kept in for almost 40 years for a murder he didn't do. Eventually proved innocent by DNA.
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The Supreme Court is there to adjudicate on matters constitutional. The appeal limit isn’t anything to do with the constitution and so can’t hear the case. It’s up to Congress who passed the law to rescind/amend it.
Unless someone can make a very good argument that the appeals limit is unconstitutional there’s nothing SCOTUS can do, even if it wanted to
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https://www.wasps-store.co.uk/all-legends/legends/
Have they used Hummel before?
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https://www.wasps-store.co.uk/all-legends/legends/
Have they used Hummel before?
Love that their Wasp goes the "right" way.
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Massive tangent, but with Wasps legends taking over do we think we'll see a return to the old badge, as in the legends badge?
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So much for the guff about Wasps now marching forward when they changed the logo.
Wonder how much of the tight budget that rebranding cost?
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Less than the near 100 million quid debt
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Surprised the Wasps Legends clothing range is in the shops before the RFU have given the green light.
Perhaps the Legends know something we don't?
It all sounds promising though.
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Surprised the Wasps Legends clothing range is in the shops before the RFU have given the green light.
Perhaps the Legends know something we don't?
It all sounds promising though.
It has always been there. The shop is still trading
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Massive tangent, but with Wasps legends taking over do we think we'll see a return to the old badge, as in the legends badge?
Absolutely love your optimism! It’s probably problem 274 just before will you still be able to get a pie but just after who the mascot will be………………………actually scratch that, it will be after the pie confirmation. :)
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https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/12742164/phil-vickery-london-return-for-former-club-wasps-would-be-awesome
Phil Vickery is one of the players involved and wants us to return to London.
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Nice but faint hope! The RFU will decide where we play if at all.
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Interesting to see that Phil is involved in the proposal.
As you say, Neils, the RFU will decide our fate. Gutfeel says that is an opportunity for them to take more control over professional rugby at the highest level. I am not counting chickens. I just wish that they would get their fingers and make the call.
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Nice but faint hope! The RFU will decide where we play if at all.
Why will the RFU decide? They didn't decide to move us to Coventry 8 years ago, that was Wasps' decision, backed up by promises of financial viability and a sustainable future and sanctioned by the RFU on that basis. Now that the experiment has failed so spectacularly, then a reversal of that move makes sense. How and exactly where, and how the EPIC might feature in that is something we can only guess at. I know the RFU are not known for their sound decision making, but I'm not sure what they'd stand to gain by blocking a return to the London area if a solution could be found.
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There as something mentioned n an earlier thread that teams coming out of administration have to play at the ground they were at and show where they are playing for a couple of seasons.
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There as something mentioned n an earlier thread that teams coming out of administration have to play at the ground they were at and show where they are playing for a couple of seasons.
While that is indeed part of the "Sporting succession" criteria, apparently. I think that is meant to be a way of confirming that a club has somewhere to play & that its not a move to a controversial location. I would expect if a club wanted to downsize their stadium to somewhere else in the local area, it would be acceptable, but as this has never happens quite like this before, who knows
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There as something mentioned n an earlier thread that teams coming out of administration have to play at the ground they were at and show where they are playing for a couple of seasons.
Correct depending on who you believe it is your first season plus the next or the next two. Do this and you retain your position in the Championship. Opt for a playing ground move and you do like London Welsh and revert back to the bottom of the leagues. RFU would need to waive this to meet Phil's desire.
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Yes. The issues around relocating, and would have resulted in much horse trading when Wasps moved to Coventry, is that your new location must not negatively impact on the geography of potential fans visiting nearby clubs. In the case of the move to Coventry, Wasps had to argue that it would not impact on Leicester, Northampton or Worcester. Mainly, this is about non-aligned rugby fans who do, we all know, turn up at games simply to see a game that is on.
The other issue is of academy recruitment and other promotional activity. For example, Wasps agreed that South Warwickshire would remain the recruiting of Worcester, and so on. That is why Wasps retained recruiting links in Oxford.
London is already heavily carved up in both regards, and I cannot see any of the 3 clubs already in place ceding much, and history be damned.
The next issue is the requirement for policing and medical cover. Wherever you set up home, you effectively need the permission of these forces to provide manpower for your games. It wasn't too much of an issue in Coventry. But, when Wasps cast around when looking to move away from High Wycombe, the Met gave a loud and emphatic 'No' to a move back in to London. I cannot think their manning levels have improved, and calls on the force for other weekend activities in the capital have no doubt increased.
I know the Wasps move to Coventry was incredibly rushed, but it was nonetheless complex. It is the reason for the continuity clause in the 'sporting succession' process.
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In all honesty I see us finding our feet in Coventry for 2-3 years (which satisfies the RFU criteria) and then moving on. That allows time and room for a move to be properly scoped out and planned and hopefully will be for a prem side. I think we need to walk before we run.
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In all honesty I see us finding our feet in Coventry for 2-3 years (which satisfies the RFU criteria) and then moving on. That allows time and room for a move to be properly scoped out and planned and hopefully will be for a prem side. I think we need to walk before we run.
That's if we get out of the starting gate!!!
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Wasps' London return backed by former England prop Phil Vickery
From Bobby Bridge.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-london-return-backed-former-25475079 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-london-return-backed-former-25475079)
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Whilst I remain to be convinced that the RFU want us to survive, the reality is, if they turn down prospective buyers without an adequate reason (and consider they approved the two conmen who bought Worcester), then it will end up in Court and quite possibly deemed to be unlawful.
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Whilst I remain to be convinced that the RFU want us to survive, the reality is, if they turn down prospective buyers without an adequate reason (and consider they approved the two conmen who bought Worcester), then it will end up in Court and quite possibly deemed to be unlawful.
Unfortunately it's the very fact that they did approve the Worcester cowboys that will lead them to be extra vigilant going forward.
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MarleyWasp,
The problem is finding someone prepared to take the financial risk of going to court.
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If only the Wasps owners had been walking through Rugby House carrying a heavy box when they tripped and fell and injured their knee forcing them to put Wasps in to administration. There's a lawyer will fight that case for free and Wasps would get £500 compensation (before costs).
;D
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Rather silly article built from little -
https://www.ruck.co.uk/four-city-shortlist-for-wasps-phil-vickery-picks-brilliant-new-home/
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It puzzles me that he says ha associates Wasps with London when he played out of Adams Park during his time with us.
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To be fair, he would have been at Adams Park once a fortnight, while he would have been at Twyford Avenue for most of the week.
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To be fair, he would have been at Adams Park once a fortnight, while he would have been at Twyford Avenue for most of the week.
I get that, but as a fan during that period I never went to London to see them. Home games meant travelling to High Wycombe.
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Exactly that VV, tho' we did go to Twyford Avenue 3 times.
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To be fair, he would have been at Adams Park once a fortnight, while he would have been at Twyford Avenue for most of the week.
I get that, but as a fan during that period I never went to London to see them. Home games meant travelling to High Wycombe.
What about our home LDH matches? Slightly London-ish feel to us back then with us billed as one of 4 London clubs.
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Remind me what we were called back then...?
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Hmm for 15 years London Wasps.
Doesn't matter now Wasps don't currently risk.
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Like so many of the issues Wasps are facing, where to play is tied up in RFU/PRL agreements, "guidelines" etc. If all parties are willing to be flexible pretty much every obstacle can be resolved, which probably means they'll be a whole host of sticking points non of which can be sorted out!
Hopefully the Wasps Legends have enough cash not only to buy the club, inject working capital and hire decent players but also get a decent legal team on the case asap.
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Remind me what we were called back then...?
But we were called that because we didn't play in London, because our home was very much not in London and the club wanted to try not to lose the London supporters they had from before.
It's all moot though really, I don't believe for a second that the RFU will do anything to help the process, and if they don't then we won't have a team. The longer it goes on the less likely it is to have a positive resolution in my book.
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I understand that negotiations are still very much "ongoing" with Legends and that a number of "legalities" need to be sorted also.
If the DCMS/Government/HMRC are starting to play "hardball" with other Premiership Rugby Clubs (as Exeter's recent actions would suggest) then surely the RFU and PRL will have to act and look at the whole future of the top of club rugby.....and quickly (if they can do that)?
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I don't believe for a second that the RFU will do anything to help the process
I don't actually understand why they wouldn't.
I get PRL may want to reduce the size of the prem, although, given they wanted it to be 14 teams not that long ago, I have no idea why.
But the RFU doesn't want professional teams to disappear surely?
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I don't believe for a second that the RFU will do anything to help the process
I don't actually understand why they wouldn't.
I get PRL may want to reduce the size of the prem, although, given they wanted it to be 14 teams not that long ago, I have no idea why.
But the RFU doesn't want professional teams to disappear surely?
Heads in the sand time.
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I don't believe for a second that the RFU will do anything to help the process
I don't actually understand why they wouldn't.
I get PRL may want to reduce the size of the prem, although, given they wanted it to be 14 teams not that long ago, I have no idea why.
But the RFU doesn't want professional teams to disappear surely?
I don't think they necessarily want professional teams to disappear.
But I think they like the idea of a club game that isn't as strong in its own right.... I.e. where the clubs need the RFU more than the RFU need them.
They're probably also not against the idea of the England contingent all playing for just 3 or 4 clubs do that the players are used to playing with each other.
Any remaining clubs could become the feeder system for their main clubs
Presumably the RFU's primary focus is the men's England team, anything they think will benefit that presumably becomes their highest priority
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I.e. where the clubs need the RFU more than the RFU need them.
Personally I think the RFU & Clubs need each other.
The club game cannot survive without the International game, lets face it, 6 nations & World Cup are the only rugby 80% of the population know about!
Likewise the PRL need the RFU, thats why we have the agreements around player release & not picking players from other leagues.
Given the RFU's track record anythings possible though!!
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They're probably also not against the idea of the England contingent all playing for just 3 or 4 clubs do that the players are used to playing with each other.
For the last xx years, it has pretty much been this anyway. With a normal distribution, one could expect 80% of the England players to come from 20% of the clubs.
Do the stats back that up? Sarries, Quins, Tigers and Bath I would guess make up the 80% (yes, I know, 4 clubs is 30% of 13). The reality is, four clubs is about right and all that would be needed to meet your RFU requirement to make the England squad, leaving 21 clubs to be in the Championship, and feed to those four clubs. Lose a club somewhere along the way and have two geographic leagues in the Championship, with no promotion or relegation from the Premiership. Trouble is, if you really want fans at the Premiership games, those clubs do not have the best/biggest grounds. Not that I think concentrating the Premiership would cause fans to switch cubs anyway, just to watch Premiership action.
And that is the point isn't it? The RFU see rugby fans as homogenous, willing to support and go to whichever club the RFU tell them to.
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I don't believe for a second that the RFU will do anything to help the process
I don't actually understand why they wouldn't.
I get PRL may want to reduce the size of the prem, although, given they wanted it to be 14 teams not that long ago, I have no idea why.
But the RFU doesn't want professional teams to disappear surely?
I think there is a big risk with legal challenges if they change their approach and start helping teams that are in trouble. They didn't help Wuss or us when we went to the wall, and if they suddenly start helping the other clubs I can see some people being a little unhappy about the disparity.
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I understand that negotiations are still very much "ongoing" with Legends and that a number of "legalities" need to be sorted also.
If the DCMS/Government/HMRC are starting to play "hardball" with other Premiership Rugby Clubs (as Exeter's recent actions would suggest) then surely the RFU and PRL will have to act and look at the whole future of the top of club rugby.....and quickly (if they can do that)?
Thanks, Colonel.
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I.e. where the clubs need the RFU more than the RFU need them.
Personally I think the RFU & Clubs need each other.
The club game cannot survive without the International game, lets face it, 6 nations & World Cup are the only rugby 80% of the population know about!
Likewise the PRL need the RFU, thats why we have the agreements around player release & not picking players from other leagues.
Given the RFU's track record anythings possible though!!
I think back to the club v country debates and discussions brokered by Rob Andrew, which resulted in the EPS being formed and money given to clubs when their players played for England, plus other concessions to allow England more time with players.
I'm sure the RFU would prefer to have a stronger position in those negotiations when they next come up
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I'm sure the RFU would prefer to have a stronger position in those negotiations when they next come up
Can't disagree with that & I guess a Prem league in disarray may be politically helpful, but that would assume the RFU have an evil master plan they are just waiting to implement. I can't see them having that sort of imagination personally :)
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Pudsey just tweeted being kept on at training ground with a couple of others to keep it ticking over.
Sounds positive that a team will emerge.
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What he actually said
"Tough couple of weeks for a lot of us. Proud to announce I am being kept on as Facilities & Logistics manager here at the training ground. A couple of us will be keeping it in good shape for WHEN the team rebuilding starts"
Pudseys' capitals.
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I wonder who's paying his wages, the administrators or training ground owners?
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Probably Holland. He paid the insurance on the centre.
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Pudsey
@WaspsKitMan
As an update from my previous personal tweet, there is a lot of work going on led by the Legends with tough time constraints to get the club in a position to compete in the Championship next season. Watch this space. #everykitmanknows.
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Pudsey seems very active and chipper tonight, another post.
https://twitter.com/WaspsKitMan/status/1591165930037706752?t=p-WFVktUnh-AyNFv97imVg&s=19
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I’m desperate to buy into and believe his optimism and I hope to god he’s right. But he did tweet “trust the process” a few days before 167 staff were laid off.
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Exactly. And a championship team at the CBS will lose cash hand over fist.
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Exactly. And a championship team at the CBS will lose cash hand over fist.
Why?
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Exactly. And a championship team at the CBS will lose cash hand over fist.
Why?
Isn't that obvious? It's a huge facility to operate for just a handful of people paying Championship ticket prices. Anyone in and around Coventry with an interest in watching live Championship rugby is already doing it. Wasps as the only Premiership team in Coventry proved unsustainable. Wasps as a second Championship team in Coventry is a complete non starter.
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Exactly. And a championship team at the CBS will lose cash hand over fist.
Why?
Isn't that obvious? It's a huge facility to operate for just a handful of people paying Championship ticket prices. Anyone in and around Coventry with an interest in watching live Championship rugby is already doing it. Wasps as the only Premiership team in Coventry proved unsustainable. Wasps as a second Championship team in Coventry is a complete non starter.
But we have no idea what it costs to run the stadium or what it might cost with a new owner.
The only info I have is that it used to cost approx. £6k to open the South stand when there was a big match back before COVID, one of the guys at Wasps told me this.
There are rumours that CCFC pay 25-30k per match.
So, taking that at face value if with the reduced attendances Wasps only opened the West and maybe North Stands it may cost them £15-20k a match.
I can imagine 3-4k attendance as a number of people in Coventry have invested 8 years of their lives in following Wasps and will continue to do so plus any travelling fans who have followed the club longer, attendances were still around 8-9k this season, so at an average of £20 a ticket that's £80k per match potentially, plus Food and beverage.
Yes, there are other costs but that's what Sponsorship, merchandise etc. are there to help with as we build again as a team, although looking at the account's sponsorship income was only approx £3.7M in 2019. (Something I couldn't find broken out in Exeter's accounts on a quick glance surprisingly)
It's really difficult to say what was and wasn't working financially for Wasps as servicing the debt was a big cost (approx. £4M according to accounts). There are also some other very big costs on the accounts, like £11M administrative expenses vs £2M for the same in Exeter's accounts, no idea what this covers, for info Exeter Staff costs were also almost £2.0M higher. (£12.6M)
Looking at the accounts for both, upto June 2021, Exeter lost £8M that year, Wasps lost £7.9M (both before tax) After Tax it was £6.4M & £7.4M respectively. Which shows the full house of cards Rugby currently is.
I don't think it's ideal financially to be at the CBS in the Championship, but to say it will never work I don't think is correct. Plus people proposing we go to small stadia somewhere, we would need a contract with somewhere with over 10k seats if we wanted to get back to the Prem, that contract would have a level of cost whether we got promoted or not.
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Plus you have the RFU requirements of stay where you are or be demoted to the bottom of the leagues (as London Welsh).
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There’s a huge cost difference between running the stadium and being a tenant. And remember, we’ve got to play somewhere, so there will be costs wherever we go. The real anchor point for me is the training centre. I just can’t see the point of moving a long way from that.
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So it's either the CBS or a different stadium or a new-build pdq at the Epic? I'd love the 3rd 'option' (it is much nearer to my home) but .... transport? Unless it was park and ride. And the neighbours might not be happy about a stadium. Unless it could incorporate something which would be available games-wise to the general public. Difficult. Probably impossible.
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So it's either the CBS or a different stadium or a new-build pdq at the Epic?
Except that according to "Rugby & the Law" any phoenix Wasps buy out has to be able to show they can stay at their current stadium for 3 years.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, no idea how flexible this requirement would be if, for example, a new owner of the CBS doesn't want Wasps there.
Where to play is only one of may issues to be worked through & agreed, lets hope there is enough time & enough will from all parties to get it done.
That last part is what is worrying me....
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I would think it is beginning to get late to consider getting (signing) players for next season - usually all done and dusted by the turn of the year.
The title "Hope?" I am afraid is beginning to fade at increasing speed.
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The critical timeline is, IMO, whatever the end date for the buy out being completed is.
What happens if it doesn't get completed in time? Will there be other potential buyers? Will the RFU etc call time on the process? What happens if they do? Is there deadline for teams to be entered into the Championship?
so many questions, but little detail in the public domain (& I do understand there are probably very good reasons why its not public)
The ability to sign up of a squad next season will become irrelevant if there's no team & no place in the champ to play in....
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I am sure (?) the RFU are working on it but you can't help feeling they are concentrating on the AIs and Women’s WC. With little things like Wasps and Worcester set aside. The next thing will be - oh it's December and the slow down towards Christmas!
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New Wasps need to find a friendly council, as Bath have. They rent The Recreation Ground land for just £27k pa and have used temporary stands for over 20 years. Current capacity 14,500.
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New Wasps need to find a friendly council, as Bath have. They rent The Recreation Ground land for just £27k pa and have used temporary stands for over 20 years. Current capacity 14,500.
If the RFU allow a move from the CBSA without penalty.
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New Wasps need to find a friendly council, as Bath have. They rent The Recreation Ground land for just £27k pa and have used temporary stands for over 20 years. Current capacity 14,500.
It's not cheap - according to local papers - "The club currently spends around £1m per season to erect temporary stands at the Rec"
Which is why they want to rebuild with an 18k seater stadium.
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Take the local PR with a pinch of salt. Only one stand is taken down each Summer (none in 2020/21). It costs much less than £1m but even at that level, it is less than £5 per ticket. The aim of the proposed new ground is to increase commercial and non-rugby activity and the est. £65m cost may be bond-funded......
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New Wasps need to find a friendly council, as Bath have. They rent The Recreation Ground land for just £27k pa and have used temporary stands for over 20 years. Current capacity 14,500.
FWIW I also think it's difficult to compare a club like Bath to Wasps. Clubs like Bath, Leicester, Northampton etc. have long histories and therefore strong connections to their local community. I might be wrong, but I don't believe Wasps ever had that. That's not to say it's impossible though!
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We certainly have a long history. It's just more varied.
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''It's not about a city; it's not about a town; it's not about a place. It's about the people.''
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We certainly have a long history. It's just more varied.
Absolutely and I appreciate how my initial comment may have come across suggesting that Wasps didn't have a history (we of course have a very long, rich history).
''It's not about a city; it's not about a town; it's not about a place. It's about the people.''
100% and this is what makes Wasps so unique.
I just think that Wasps have probably had a harder time finding a home and are probably perceived as an unwelcome guest by others (I can only comment with how Wasps were received by some in Coventry). Whereas other clubs, like Leicester/Northampton/Bath/Gloucester, you could say "have always been there", therefore I'd imagine it's easier to get what they want.
I'd imagine it being harder for a clubs like Wasps where they try to establish a home for themselves and trying to win over the local population (referring to Coventry again, it's not like many people were sorry to see us go).
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135 years in West London, then a further 12 a short drive up the M40. Coventry was a move too far.
The clubs mentioned identify very specifically with individual towns and cities, and the people of those towns and cities therefore have little problem identifying with the rugby club.
London clubs have never had that same identity as their geography is a somewhat blurred area of urban sprawl with no defined boundary.
The line about the club not being about a place was sentimental bullshit spouted to justify upping sticks and trying to establish roots miles from their main supporter base in a city where they were largely unwanted.
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Where did that line come from, DGP Wasp? Other than Twitter of course, which is where I found it. It might be what you called it but I do find it descriptive of the peripatetic Wasp.
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Our new name should be Peripatetic Wasps
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;)
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Where did that line come from, DGP Wasp? Other than Twitter of course, which is where I found it. It might be what you called it but I do find it descriptive of the peripatetic Wasp.
I'm not on Twitter, so wrong on that count. :)
Not disagreeing with the sentiment that Wasps transcends straightforward geography, but the notion that we are a nomadic, almost Barbarians-like club who exist as some kind of intangible entity with no need for anywhere to call home is fanciful. The disastrous Coventry move proves that "Wherever I Lay My Hat" is no basis on which to run professional rugby club. The romance of that notion was heavily tapped into to appease critics of the move, and it never sat very comfortably with me.
Wasps have their roots, and still a considerable fan base in West London. That's where the Wasps "spirit" is strongest, and right now it's about all we've got.
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To a large extent I agree with you DGP,. This little quote just fits my mood at the moment.
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Where did that line come from, DGP Wasp? Other than Twitter of course, which is where I found it. It might be what you called it but I do find it descriptive of the peripatetic Wasp.
Lol has used this quote several times on BT Sport recently.
I agree with him. Having supported Wasps for 40 years I probably have more memories of people than of specific games, though I remember quite a few exciting ones, including the 15 Cup finals I went to, of which we won 10. My kids went to 11 of those and we only lost the last one in extra time!
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DGP I know the point you’re making. But at the CBS a lot of the people around me were from Coventry and the locale. They had bought into Wasps 100%. We shouldn’t dismiss that as a fan base (I know that wasn’t really what you were doing). In any case we’re potentially not choosing where/if we end up next.
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I wonder who has the money? At least one of them must.
Now they need some players, as few 'coaches' as possible (watching the borefest that the Prem was this and last week, caused IMHO by pro coaching micro management and awful officiating), and a ground.
Someone mentions in that Twitter thread that some of the players from the ‘80s & ‘90s were well connected with city types.
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Looking up that quote on Google not only have I misquoted it but it looks as if Lol did too - and if he did that's OK by me! It seems to be misquoted all over. But I stick with it's message.
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While it's taken a terrible turn, I struggle to class the last 8 years as disastrous.
Arguably you could say the move to high Wycombe was disastrous too because that was within minutes/hours of ending the same way.
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Plus 1.
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While it's taken a terrible turn, I struggle to class the last 8 years as disastrous.
Arguably you could say the move to high Wycombe was disastrous too because that was within minutes/hours of ending the same way.
Very good point, we don't think of the fans from High Wycombe as somehow less that the original London fans either.
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Regardless of what has happened on the pitch in the past 8 years (a couple of finals, one European semi, but no silverware), the outcome is undeniably disastrous.
8 major trophies in a 6 year period during our time in Wycombe is a considerably better return, and yes we were just as deep in the mire financially by the end of that time, with no money, no home of our own and no other revenue streams, and only the Cov move saved us then, but ultimately all that achieved was a stay of execution and further debt accrual.
I admire the Cov based fans who have really embraced Wasps, and I know there are many on here and I mean them no disrespect. However, I have a work colleague who lives in Warwickshire and started going with his family to watch Wasps when they moved to the Ricoh (as was), having previously not followed the domestic game. When he heard the news of Wasps demise, his reaction was "We'll have to go to Tigers or Saints now", and I can't help but feel that this is probably true for many more Midlands-based Wasps fans (present company excepted of course!). Exactly the reaction PRL want, namely that enough fans will simply move along to somewhere else to make Wasps and Worcester's fate commercially irrelevant..
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Exactly the reaction PRL want, namely that enough fans will simply move along to somewhere else to make Wasps and Worcester's fate commercially irrelevant..
That's a bit disingenuous.
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My visits to live games have been curtailed due to geography and health - but even as a self identifying Wasp since before the 87 RWC (my marker, no other reason. I was there and liked watching Wasps players turn out for England) I'd happily go to games involving other teams. My mate - the Tigers fan had family working there which meant I got to their final vs Sale at Twickenham back in 2006, and my neighbour has two Bath season tickets and I occasionally get to go and it's fun.
Not sure what my point is...doh....but I will probably end up going to odd games, they'll be much nearer than Coventry for me (i.e. Bath, Briz, Glaws) - but not with any feeling of supporting. More the liking of going to an event.
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Nobody I know from around where we sat - that includes LR, AP and Midlands people have transferred to any other PRL club. Most are now supporting Level 2 downwards local clubs. Many do not even watch much PRL now on TV.
Those that keep banging on about a return to "London" always state that the old fans will come out to support. I very much doubt it bar a few would turn up. We supported through moves and preferred Coventry for access. If Wasps bucked the Met Police and moved to inside the M25 they would certainly lose us from attending. I avoid the cesspit that london has become and I know many who feel the same.
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Regardless of what has happened on the pitch in the past 8 years (a couple of finals, one European semi, but no silverware), the outcome is undeniably disastrous.
8 major trophies in a 6 year period during our time in Wycombe is a considerably better return, and yes we were just as deep in the mire financially by the end of that time, with no money, no home of our own and no other revenue streams, and only the Cov move saved us then, but ultimately all that achieved was a stay of execution and further debt accrual.
I admire the Cov based fans who have really embraced Wasps, and I know there are many on here and I mean them no disrespect. However, I have a work colleague who lives in Warwickshire and started going with his family to watch Wasps when they moved to the Ricoh (as was), having previously not followed the domestic game. When he heard the news of Wasps demise, his reaction was "We'll have to go to Tigers or Saints now", and I can't help but feel that this is probably true for many more Midlands-based Wasps fans (present company excepted of course!). Exactly the reaction PRL want, namely that enough fans will simply move along to somewhere else to make Wasps and Worcester's fate commercially irrelevant..
You state no disrespect then go on to disrespect us.
It's a shame the 'older' fans seem to be trying to drive wedges between the different supporter bases, when there is actually none other than people thinking they are more important than others, just because one of your colleagues decided to go to watch a team elsewhere doesn't mean the rest of us are. I went to the Quins vs Baabaas match last night to support the ex-wasps guys playing and hated it, it wasn't Wasps. I'll only go back to club rugby when Wasps are back, wherever that happens to be.
Yes my 1st Wasps game was in 2014, but I've missed about 3 home matches since, gone to numerous away matches and myself and my other half have been heavily invested in following and supporting wasps for 8 years, but in your mind someone who started watching wasps at Adams park is more important. Complete bollocks, more people in Coventry came out to watch Wasps than did so at AP, that is a fact. Even the last few games were above the AP norm.
People claim the Coventry move killed Wasps, perhaps it did, but it had nothing to do with the people supporting the club or the city, we are hurting as much as anyone, it was all, IMHO down to Derek and his advisors, they made the financial decisions.
It's time for supporters to stop driving wedges because of some perceived superiority complex and work together once a plan is announced to support ALL OUR club.
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It's time for supporters to stop driving wedges because of some perceived superiority complex and work together once a plan is announced to support ALL OUR club.
Quite right, andermt. I've supported Wasps when they were at Loftus Road (STH) and I have never felt the slightest bit superior to those who came after. Sadly, I never managed to get to Coventry and was not at all bitter when we moved there. I know some so called fans were outraged at the move and would not countenance visiting our new home. In my case, a 'sensitive' (legacy of radiotherapy for prostrate cancer) bladder makes any distance travelling a risky business.
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Regardless of what has happened on the pitch in the past 8 years (a couple of finals, one European semi, but no silverware), the outcome is undeniably disastrous.
8 major trophies in a 6 year period during our time in Wycombe is a considerably better return, and yes we were just as deep in the mire financially by the end of that time, with no money, no home of our own and no other revenue streams, and only the Cov move saved us then, but ultimately all that achieved was a stay of execution and further debt accrual.
I admire the Cov based fans who have really embraced Wasps, and I know there are many on here and I mean them no disrespect. However, I have a work colleague who lives in Warwickshire and started going with his family to watch Wasps when they moved to the Ricoh (as was), having previously not followed the domestic game. When he heard the news of Wasps demise, his reaction was "We'll have to go to Tigers or Saints now", and I can't help but feel that this is probably true for many more Midlands-based Wasps fans (present company excepted of course!). Exactly the reaction PRL want, namely that enough fans will simply move along to somewhere else to make Wasps and Worcester's fate commercially irrelevant..
You state no disrespect then go on to disrespect us.
It's a shame the 'older' fans seem to be trying to drive wedges between the different supporter bases, when there is actually none other than people thinking they are more important than others, just because one of your colleagues decided to go to watch a team elsewhere doesn't mean the rest of us are. I went to the Quins vs Baabaas match last night to support the ex-wasps guys playing and hated it, it wasn't Wasps. I'll only go back to club rugby when Wasps are back, wherever that happens to be.
Yes my 1st Wasps game was in 2014, but I've missed about 3 home matches since, gone to numerous away matches and myself and my other half have been heavily invested in following and supporting wasps for 8 years, but in your mind someone who started watching wasps at Adams park is more important. Complete bollocks, more people in Coventry came out to watch Wasps than did so at AP, that is a fact. Even the last few games were above the AP norm.
People claim the Coventry move killed Wasps, perhaps it did, but it had nothing to do with the people supporting the club or the city, we are hurting as much as anyone, it was all, IMHO down to Derek and his advisors, they made the financial decisions.
It's time for supporters to stop driving wedges because of some perceived superiority complex and work together once a plan is announced to support ALL OUR club.
+1
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The Coventry based fans are not the problem, for me DR was well out of his depth, making multiple mistakes and maybe listening to people who were giving him bad advise. Every day that goes by the angrier I get with the people who ran the club. Also it looks like the bondholders will also lose out, it's a really sorry state and shameful
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It is what is is.
Sadly, us fans, have zero influence on the outcome.
If we do rise from the ashes, then I will be attending matches to watch the 'new' club.
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It's time for supporters to stop driving wedges because of some perceived superiority complex and work together once a plan is announced to support ALL OUR club.
Quite right, andermt. I've supported Wasps when they were at Loftus Road (STH) and I have never felt the slightest bit superior to those who came after. Sadly, I never managed to get to Coventry and was not at all bitter when we moved there. I know some so called fans were outraged at the move and would not countenance visiting our new home. In my case, a 'sensitive' (legacy of radiotherapy for prostrate cancer) bladder makes any distance travelling a risky business.
You describe those who were outraged at the move and would not countenance visiting our new home as "so called fans". So who's the one being superior?
If I've come across as feeling superior in any way then I apologise. Not my intention and not how I feel at all. I wanted to highlight a genuine example from a guy who describes (described?) himself as a Wasps supporter, someone I have enormous respect for who has said that he will simply go elsewhere for his Premiership rugby from now on, something which left me wondering how many more feel the same. I'm not the first on here to suggest that this is what PRL would like to think will happen, so not sure how it's disingenuous to mention it.
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It's time for supporters to stop driving wedges because of some perceived superiority complex and work together once a plan is announced to support ALL OUR club.
Quite right, andermt. I've supported Wasps when they were at Loftus Road (STH) and I have never felt the slightest bit superior to those who came after. Sadly, I never managed to get to Coventry and was not at all bitter when we moved there. I know some so called fans were outraged at the move and would not countenance visiting our new home. In my case, a 'sensitive' (legacy of radiotherapy for prostrate cancer) bladder makes any distance travelling a risky business.
You describe those who were outraged at the move and would not countenance visiting our new home as "so called fans". So who's the one being superior?
If I've come across as feeling superior in any way then I apologise. Not my intention and not how I feel at all. I wanted to highlight a genuine example from a guy who describes (described?) himself as a Wasps supporter, someone I have enormous respect for who has said that he will simply go elsewhere for his Premiership rugby from now on, something which left me wondering how many more feel the same. I'm not the first on here to suggest that this is what PRL would like to think will happen, so not sure how it's disingenuous to mention it.
It's down to my clumsy writing. I did not intend to give the impression of being 'superior '. It was my intention however to call out those who took umbrage at the move because it was a personal inconvenience. If I had been less decrepit I would have continued to support in person, though I would have been selective as to which matches I attended.
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Nobody I know from around where we sat - that includes LR, AP and Midlands people have transferred to any other PRL club. Most are now supporting Level 2 downwards local clubs. Many do not even watch much PRL now on TV.
Those that keep banging on about a return to "London" always state that the old fans will come out to support. I very much doubt it bar a few would turn up. We supported through moves and preferred Coventry for access. If Wasps bucked the Met Police and moved to inside the M25 they would certainly lose us from attending. I avoid the cesspit that london has become and I know many who feel the same.
I think the London thing is a mirage. I don't think there are that many in London who will turn up at Wasps. Rugby attendances are poor at club level, London fans are few and far between. However, I sypathise with the idea that CBS is not sustainable long term. Watching rugby in a stadium with 15 k attending should feel better than it does. A 15 K stadium where the CBS is would be fine. If there is a move closer to London, I doubt it would be in the M25.
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In some ways the very fact we’ve attracted fans from London, Berkshire, The Midlands and anywhere else gives us some versatility as to where we go next. We’re all Wasps fans who just want a team to follow.
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Regardless of what has happened on the pitch in the past 8 years (a couple of finals, one European semi, but no silverware), the outcome is undeniably disastrous.
8 major trophies in a 6 year period during our time in Wycombe is a considerably better return, and yes we were just as deep in the mire financially by the end of that time, with no money, no home of our own and no other revenue streams, and only the Cov move saved us then, but ultimately all that achieved was a stay of execution and further debt accrual.
I admire the Cov based fans who have really embraced Wasps, and I know there are many on here and I mean them no disrespect. However, I have a work colleague who lives in Warwickshire and started going with his family to watch Wasps when they moved to the Ricoh (as was), having previously not followed the domestic game. When he heard the news of Wasps demise, his reaction was "We'll have to go to Tigers or Saints now", and I can't help but feel that this is probably true for many more Midlands-based Wasps fans (present company excepted of course!). Exactly the reaction PRL want, namely that enough fans will simply move along to somewhere else to make Wasps and Worcester's fate commercially irrelevant..
My wife and I are from Wolverhampton and have been season ticket holders since2016-17. We will not be following or attending any other premiership clubs, We have not watched a premiership game since Wasps stopped playing. The premiership will get no money from us, however we do plan to watch Ealing Trailfinders in the New Year
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Husband and I are with you all the way Nrgee, especially re: Trailing Eelfinders - if they're on TV.
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Is there any hope now?
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There's still hope until there is none left.
I know that The Legends are working behind the scenes on plans, but also think they haven't been "helped" by either the RFU or Derek.
I presume that the RFU will have timelines in place and no doubt will need to plan for next season even at this stage of the current season, but a little bit of "consideration" would be nice.
As I'm born and bred in Coventry I have followed Coventry from the Duckham/Rossborough era and did used to go along and have usually been to 2 or 3 games a season when Wasps haven't been playing.However with the sad decline of the club, I have followed Wasps since 1993 when I first saw Dallaglio play and to say that I was personally delighted when they moved to Coventry was an understatement.
However I do absolutely respect all Wasps fans views and totally understand that being based in Coventry certainly wasn't everyone's cup of tea.
We went to the first game in Coventry and then became season ticket holders after that and have also regularly followed the club up and down the country and several away games in Europe and enjoyed the friendly welcome at every ground I have been to (apart from Welford Road obviously).
I will still go to some Coventry home games later this season hopefully, but I would not go and watch any other Premiership game as it doesn't mean anything to me at this moment in time and like many on here I haven't even bothered watching on TV either.
God knows how the RFU or PRL think any die hard Wasps Fans are suddenly going to become Tigers Fans is totally beyond me!
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They don't, it's just a conspiracy theory on here rather than confront the reality of the colossal cluster Wasps were making of managing the financial affairs smashing into the iceberg of Covid
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That’s interesting Colonel so two questions if I may 1) How is DR making things hard and 2) In your opinion on a scale of 1-10 how likely are we to have a side to follow in the Championship next year? (10 being we’re there, just got to choose what’s going to be on draft to 1, pit of doom, you’ll be mowing the lawn every Saturday).
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I have heard from a couple of sources that he hadn't been as "co-operative" as he could have been, but think this has been resolved now.
I've always seen myself as a "glass half full" person, but the last few weeks have definitely tested me.
I'm 100% sure that The Legends people absolutely have the best intentions of the club at heart, but if the RFU are putting time and financial deadlines in place that are unrealistic in the current climate and if so maybe have their own "agenda" behind this that might not be good for us.
I think it may be 50:50, but that is only my opinion and not based on any direct factual knowledge at this moment in time.
I haven't heard anything "negative" from Frasers Group re Wasps playing at the CBSA, but neither have I heard anything positive (unlike CCFC comments yesterday) so again not sure how that impacts on the previous RFU statement about being in the Championship if we continue to be based where we were before Administration.
I genuinely don't know how much 'Financial Clout" the Legends Consortium has behind it, but I assume that they wouldn't have gone into this without some knowledge of what it entailed in terms of cost.
I'm just off to fill the other half of my glass up as definitely time for a beer. :)
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They don't, it's just a conspiracy theory on here rather than confront the reality of the colossal cluster Wasps were making of managing the financial affairs smashing into the iceberg of Covid
10 team league is the aim. So as conspiracies go it is pretty lousy, because it has been publicly stated. This isn't a witch hunt, the witch has a pointy hat and is shouting 'I am a witch'. PRL now want a 10 team league. So that means they expect it to be more financially profitable than the 14 team league in the offing Sept. How this will happen when Wasps and Worc and the other club's fans are not attending with fewer matches to boot, is beyond me. Basic maths says fewer games and fewer fans watching domestic rugby plus people gradually killing off their BT subscriptions over the next 18 months will reduce income unless those fans are not lost to the Prem. In which case they will have swapped clubs.
4 teams have called for a salary cap raise and there has been talk of a European plus SA league, which I think won't fly fir sure but it has been raised.
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I started supporting Wasps when they moved to Adams Park because they were my local club, and as a sports fan I couldn't believe my luck that they were on my doorstep. A season ticket was a no brainer. I also support Surrey cricket club, a decision made when I was about 13 because they were the nearest pro cricket team geographically and I could easily get to the Oval or Guildford. I grew up in Slough and got my football fix watching Slough Town and Fulham because my dad grew up there and he used to take me to Craven Cottage regularly where he met up with old mates.
What I'm alluding to here is that anyone, be it Coventry, Berks or London, who invests time and money in their local team through both good and bad times are the soul of a club, the sport and we're all equal. I love watching live sport, meeting likeminded fans and making new friends as a result. The ups and downs of a season, the debating of team selection, the beer, the banter, the smell of burgers, the occasion that draws everyone together and the joy of a good result combined with the anticipation of an upcoming game as the week progresses. We're all Wasps together and experience the same highs and lows.
I unfortunately work for a large corporate organisation in Berks where constant streams of graduates and shallow middle aged managers generally support Man Utd, Liverpool or Arsenal and in rugby England, more England or Saracens ("Owen Farrell is just sooo amazing...he's really good at kicking his points..!") Barely any of them have ever been to watch in person, even more so their professed side, yet it's the main topic of non-work conversation. Soulless fans ticking a box and watching from a distance on TV, emotionally detached. Hats off to all those fans in any sport who turn out week after week to support a club in person, particularly their local sides, regardless of standing and prepared to ride the rollercoaster of another season.
Also, just as an aside, for once I wholeheartedly agree with David Campese who has said rugby has an increasing problem with entertainment value. He said the 'amount of box kicking is unbelievable' and apparently the recent tri nations New Zealand v Australia game had a first half of 51 minutes where the ball was in play for just 13 of those minutes. He wants to see more of entertainers and ball in hand, citing the likes of Finn Russell and Danny Cipriani.
The win at all costs conservative rugby is a race to the bottom for me, and having noticed Saracens again seem to have tapped up a lot of the exciting young talent in the PRL who have signed for them next season, the English game must be on it's last legs as a genuinely entertaining sport. The EAs may as well sponsor the competition next season their name is written so large across the borefest, and then take out multi season tickets at Twickenham and await the battle of the rest to see who they beat in the final. Tedious stuff.
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I never really watched club rugby before 2016. In 2016 my 7 year old son wanted to watch a match live so I took him to watch Wasps vs Exeter which I believe was the first home game of the season. So began my sons fanatical obsession with rugby and Wasps. That first season we ended up going to every home game and a final at Twickenham. We have been season tickets holders since and attend many away games. I cannot even begin to describe how devastated he was when Wasps folded and how desperate he is for them to return in some form. We won’t be swapping allegiances to any other club and neither do we bother watching PLR on tv anymore.
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I only watched internationals before Wasps came to high Wycombe, I knew nothing about Wasps then but couldn't pass up the opportunity to watch live rugby so a ST holder I became, I then found out that Wasps were a west London club and being as I was born in west London I then considered Wasps to be my club which they will always be, I will never support another club, I can't even bring myself to watch any club rugby at the moment, BT sport has gone. I hope and pray that Wasps are resurrected in some form. There's an empty space on a Saturday knowing I'm not going to be elated or depressed by Wasps result, mostly depressed of late but it didn't matter because I am a Wasp.
ONCE A WASP ALWAYS A WASP
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I was nearly in tears reading these last above postings. Hopefully those responsible for the (close, apparently) demise of Wasps read in particular the last two. So very much our own family's experience. I hope the RFU in particular read these, realise what they are doing/have done, feel justifiably guilty and conscious-stricken - but there probably little chance of that. C O Y W ................
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I became an STH holder since the move to Coventry. Before then, I played rugby but never really had a club I supported and felt a part of.
That changed when Wasps came to Coventry and a few people who I worked with at my old workplace decided to go across for a few games. I think I only took one game to decide I needed to go more often, and a ST seemed the right way to go. I've said it in many posts but in all the years I played rugby and followed the various clubs (very casually), no club stole my heart like Wasps did. I'd been looking for that rugby family for years and finally got it when I identified as a Wasps fan.
I have been supporting Wasps religiously for the 5 years since my first game (the Tigers semi in 2017) to the point where I was slowly converting my football mad in-laws.
As I'm sure many of us do, I have Wasps memorabilia in various forms. Some are Christmas decorations, one of my favorite pieces is a signed ball that I put time and effort into getting signed. Every time I looked at it in the past, I felt pride. I still do feel pride, but I also feel a great sense of loss.
I still have faint hope that the professional Wasps are resurrected, they are the only professional outfit I will ever support (the RFU can get fudged if they think I will go support Tigers or Northampton). I would hope that we are able to hear something soon because I feel like my hope/denial is taking me down a garden path that will lead to more heartache.
I think for anyone who says "oh well, we will just go to "x" club to watch rugby now" I would argue weren't Wasps fans (even if they say they were). I would suggest that they are rugby fans who just had convenient access to live professional rugby and, if it stops being available, will look elsewhere that's relatively close by. There's nothing wrong with having that outlook, I don't judge at all, but the RFU are hugely missing the mark if they really think all Wasps fans will think the same (which a lot of us absolutely won't). Other people on this forum are echoing exactly how I see things - I will just go and put more effort into my local club (for me, it's Lichfield). I will likely go back to play and, once I can't, it just means I'll watch more than play.
I apologise if I'm recycling the same opinion in almost every post I make, but this is the only place where I think people truly understand how I feel.
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There is some optimism amongst some of the staff and players hoping to be involved in whatever form the Legends bid might revive Wasps into. Likely to be more news in 4 weeks or so, until there's news either way.
By all accounts, the execs at PRL don't see the future as simply a 10-Team Prem and are investing time and energy looking at how best they could create 2x competitive divisions, to ultimately expand top-flight rugby in England.
I'm assuming that the RFU would be supportive of this, as it would take away the RFU having to fund the league (which they're already actively seeking to reduce as it is)
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Thank IBW. A glimmer of hope. The best Xmas present that we might get this year!!
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Thanks for the "glimmer".
As someone has said on the almost dead site it is nearing time for the Administrators Report (with the major element sorted).
However I wish the "Authorities" could give a green light (even partial) so that somebody could take charge and start arranging matters - maybe this is going on unercover!!
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There is some optimism amongst some of the staff and players hoping to be involved in whatever form the Legends bid might revive Wasps into. Likely to be more news in 4 weeks or so, until there's news either way.
By all accounts, the execs at PRL don't see the future as simply a 10-Team Prem and are investing time and energy looking at how best they could create 2x competitive divisions, to ultimately expand top-flight rugby in England.
I'm assuming that the RFU would be supportive of this, as it would take away the RFU having to fund the league (which they're already actively seeking to reduce as it is)
Here's the thing. It doesn't matter how you slice it, there is nowhere near enough money in English rugby to make it a professional game. A lot of players want it to be a profession, otherwise they cannot afford to play. That expectation gap is the issue. Take a look at the Championship. In the main, players are not paid.
At best, especially if the money that there is, is not shared around but instead mainly available only to a few clubs (partisan benefactors of clubs like Sarries and Ealing), a top league of either 8 or 10 clubs is all the RFU will end up with. Other clubs will be excluded due to lack of money.
TV money will the reduce.
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Yes, would be nice to see some sort of holding statement or progress report - although understand that may be impossible. Apart from anything else it would be nice to see players coming to us rather than the constant outpouring of talent we’re currently having to bear. Updates on here are really welcome as I know loads of fans who are scanning for every bit of info they can get.
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It can't expand to two French style leagues. The fans are not there. They had their opportunity to expand it by the RFU expanding the championship and opening the chequebook when times were good ages back. Lack of support for the Pirates and Doncasters of this world, lack of exposure lead to what we have now. They did not step up and we ended up with a genuine "premier" league where the gap was much, much bigger to the next level down than in the soccer equivalent.
In short, we need to be in the top league to exist over a period of time. The championship is not a long term solution for a professional Wasps, or, indeed anyone of our ilk.
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It can't expand to two French style leagues. The fans are not there.
Twickenham virtually sells-out every International game, despite the highest ever ticket prices and a team lately playing some pretty uninspiring rugby. Big Game has 50k+ every game (into it's 14th year now I think). Falcons played at St James park in 2018 (I think it was) and got a 30k+ attendance. We got spanked at Twickenham by Bath for the St Georges Day game with nearly 40k attending. Irish sell out their St Patricks Day game every year.
These aren’t the same sets of supporters creating these big crowds. In fact, i'd argue that very few 'Club' fans would go to one of these games if their team wasn't playing in it.
So I think broadly speaking, the numbers/underlying interest is there across the country.
The big question is how do you convert the more casual fans into fans that come to multiple games per season, or buy a Season Ticket?
In reality, the teams that need a decent uplift in bums-in-seats are (were) us, Warriors, Falcons, Sharks and Irish. A relatively small uplift for the rest would see constant sell-outs, or the ability to increase stadia to cope with an uplift.
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Two teams of ten means pain for someone as if you include us and Wuss there are 25 teams. So who drops out. For me it would need to be two up and two down. To make the game sustainable the salary cap needs to come down so that there’s not such a disparity between those trying to survive outside of having a sugar daddy. Get rid of the prem cup and have a knockout competition for the 20 clubs. No international / club crossover and only 1 marquee player per club.
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The fans are not there.
The one off games get a few extra casual fans of the clubs concerned, and a few more casual bystanders.
It is that simple. You can't convert who you have already converted. The St Georges' day game is a case in point - two teams with 10 k grounds get 40 k - each bringing an extra 5- 10 k for a one off, not unreasonable for clubs. A few more of the internationals only brigade and you are at 40k with a big marketing effort talking about George Harrison et al.
Old Trafford sees 75 k or so every week to watch Man United. They are not the same 75 k. Quite the opposite, but none if them are Liverpool or Spurs fans. Bath don't have 10k fans and neither did we at AP. We had 8 k per match, but our fans who came to some games were much greater. If you want to get 20 teams with full stadia you need not 20 x 10 k worth of fans, but 20 x 30 k, because for most fans weekly attendance is actually a non starter. In our current fiscal climate more so. People on 30 k salaries just don't have the 200 gbp to spend on transport and tix and sundries per month with two hone games in. Those with season tix are the exception to the rule.
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there is no simple solution to not having enough fans/money
Lower salary cap will impact players, both financially & physically (with a smaller squad players will get less rest). Look how many decent players can't get a job currently?
It will also force players over seas & that will impact the England squad, which is the only part of Rugby that makes any decent income. Unless the rules on picking English based players are relaxed but then that will mean even more players leaving the prem thus devaluing it further. That in turn will mean lower TV & sponsorship income & driving fans away even more.
Prem games are actually extremely competitive (although I fully expect Sarries to win it) so the product is quite exciting & full houses at clubs that can get them seem to have a good atmosphere. How many people would want to watch a game where top sides batter ex championship sides?
Another by product of the tighter salary cap will be those clubs with sugar daddies wanting to split & set up their own Euro league with the Irish provinces & the top french clubs, thus further devaluing all domestic competitions & probably forcing the different unions to ban the players from internationals.
Difficult decisions to be made, just hope someone with enough imagination can be involved so they can come up with the least worse plan!
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Paul
I agree. Most Premiership clubs could now only rely on season ticket sales of maybe 1-2k, and attendance somewhere in the region of 3-10k per game. But that does not make the game viable without the sugar daddies. Premiership ground capacities now do not need to be bigger than 5-15k. What many seem to ignore is, this is not 2018 any longer. Recession is here, times are very hard, and will only get harder for many folks. Those attending are getting older every year and more infirm, there is not enough youth coming in to watch the game. As you get older, you attend less games. And Covid has removed some potential fans from physically attending a game altogether. I have attended only 2 games of any sort since the Covid lockdown started, both were local club games. I used to go at least once a week. I cannot be alone in this change.
I also agree that a breakaway core of 5 or 6 clubs is entirely possible, but that may end up being with the agreement of the RFU, leaving about 20 clubs in the semi-pro sub tier, but I do wonder how many of those will survive. Some must be in a parlous financial state.
Is the game dying? I don't think so, but it is becoming a less mainstream sport. Certainly less than it perceives itself to be. For the young players coming through, this is now a vocation, not a career. Almost back to where the game was in the early 90s. With a stronger youth grass roots structure, and with the very welcome addition of the ladies game.
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The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.
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The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.
Prime was excellent- should move more there.
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Rugby, I believe, have a few fundamental issues:
1. The laws of the game are not consistently applied. Even we, as seasoned rugby fans, scratch our heads at some decisions so how do we expect newcomers to understand the game?
2. Risks associated with concussion. I believe we are ahead of many sports in this regard, but more can be done. I imagine this does stop younger people from participating.
3. English professional rugby believes it's much bigger than it really is. Players wages are getting higher (I'm not saying it's undeserved) but income does not match the demand - unless you are a club with a mega rich owner.
I don't know what the right way forward is, but if certain premiership clubs do decide to breakaway, it will only further weaken professional rugby. The RFU won't mind so long as their precious internationals aren't affected. But the clubs may soon realise that even this breakaway league isn't the solution they are looking for.
As for putting rugby behind paywalls, I think it largely depends on what paywall that is. If it's for Sky/BT Sport, then I'd agree that it goes against any efforts trying to expand the game as people would have to go out of their way to subscribe (and it costs a lot of money). However, getting it onto a service like Prime isn't so bad because a lot of people already have Prime (or know somebody who does - though this isn't me advocating sharing passwords ::)). Even then, Prime offer 30 day trials for those who want to dip in for a few of the Autumn Nations games one season. The one good thing about Prime is that they leave the games on demand, meaning you don't have to worry about forgetting to record if you miss the game.
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Definitely more scope for making the game more exciting, and easier to understand.
I also think that the money is not there to support two professional leagues, but I'd add a 'yet' to that statement.
If you assume there will be a Wasps and Worcester in the Championship next year, plus say a relegated London Irish to get to the 10 team prem, then that instantly makes the Championship more competitive and attractive. Especially if you also consider there are other competitive teams, Ealing, Jersey, etc.
To support and nurture this, the championship needs more visibility, better profile, maybe free to air live games even if just online. But overall more publicity and profile - I'm not a media expert.
Also, further limit premiership salary caps (don't increase them), remove barriers to promotion, make it a sporting meritocracy and not based on whether you could hypothetically get 10,000 fans, etc, and go for a two up two down promotion/relegation system, and over time, say 5-10 years, the money and players trickle down, interest in the championship grows, and the gap closes.
This is speculation, but if you don't try you will never know. And at the moment, the game is shrinking.
If the money clubs insist on chasing bigger budgets and more glamour and share of the prize then the above will never happen. It's in this that we need a strong RFU, to actually lower budgets and make the competition more equitable, for the longer term health of the game.
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The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.
But how to exploit that golden egg if they don't go where the money is (pay per view)?
Also remember that the RFU is non-profit organisation, yes, there are some amateur members of the RFU council with their noses in the trough but the RFU spends the vast majority of any profit it makes on the game, both professional & grass roots.
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The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.
Prime was excellent- should move more there.
If you want a game to be a minority sport, take it off terrestrial TV.
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The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.
But how to exploit that golden egg if they don't go where the money is (pay per view)?
Also remember that the RFU is non-profit organisation, yes, there are some amateur members of the RFU council with their noses in the trough but the RFU spends the vast majority of any profit it makes on the game, both professional & grass roots.
You have identified the question, there are no easy answers, as every single exclusive Prime or otherwise match will shrink the game in the long run. The answer has to be a split model with games on TV and others off to Pay TV, a bit like BT and C4.
Sadly, non profit is all blown away by stories like this.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/cash-strapped-rfu-have-done-the-unthinkable-refusing-to-cut-expenses-budget-of-55-member-council/
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The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.
Prime was excellent- should move more there.
If you want a game to be a minority sport, take it off terrestrial TV.
the 2 biggest sports in this country aren't on terrestrial tv
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The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.
But how to exploit that golden egg if they don't go where the money is (pay per view)?
Also remember that the RFU is non-profit organisation, yes, there are some amateur members of the RFU council with their noses in the trough but the RFU spends the vast majority of any profit it makes on the game, both professional & grass roots.
You have identified the question, there are no easy answers, as every single exclusive Prime or otherwise match will shrink the game in the long run. The answer has to be a split model with games on TV and others off to Pay TV, a bit like BT and C4.
Sadly, non profit is all blown away by stories like this.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/cash-strapped-rfu-have-done-the-unthinkable-refusing-to-cut-expenses-budget-of-55-member-council/
That is a VERY old story. Over two years old.
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the 2 biggest sports in this country aren't on terrestrial tv
You need to build the support base through free to air tv. Once you have grown the demand then you can cash in by going to pay tv
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But surely the 6 Nations are on free to view TV (ignoring the need for a TV licence) ?
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The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.
But how to exploit that golden egg if they don't go where the money is (pay per view)?
Also remember that the RFU is non-profit organisation, yes, there are some amateur members of the RFU council with their noses in the trough but the RFU spends the vast majority of any profit it makes on the game, both professional & grass roots.
You have identified the question, there are no easy answers, as every single exclusive Prime or otherwise match will shrink the game in the long run. The answer has to be a split model with games on TV and others off to Pay TV, a bit like BT and C4.
Sadly, non profit is all blown away by stories like this.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/cash-strapped-rfu-have-done-the-unthinkable-refusing-to-cut-expenses-budget-of-55-member-council/
That is a VERY old story. Over two years old.
There have been no stories since about them cutting it, and it is the same RFU.
Unless there has been a reversal story I missed, of course.
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Apparently the Wasps signs have been removed from the CBSA.
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It would be great to get some kind of official update on where the Phoenix buy out is. It doesn't have to be detailed, just an update on progress would be nice.
Got a nasty feeling there's too many obstacles to it ever happening, but would really love to be wrong...
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It would be great to get some kind of official update on where the Phoenix buy out is. It doesn't have to be detailed, just an update on progress would be nice.
Got a nasty feeling there's too many obstacles to it ever happening, but would really love to be wrong...
There was a post last week that it should be expected in about 4 weeks certainly before Christmas.
I suspect those bidding haven't a clue about what the RFU/PRL want especially after last week's ripping to shreds.
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Apparently the Wasps signs have been removed from the CBSA.
Unless there is a miracle, we are now history.
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Apparently the Wasps signs have been removed from the CBSA.
Unless there is a miracle, we are now history.
This unfortunately.
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Very very sadly and reluctantly, I agree.
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Not sure I read too much into this. I imagine a load of signage will come down to be replaced with stuff advertising Big Mike’s tat emporium.
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Not sure I read too much into this. I imagine a load of signage will come down to be replaced with stuff advertising Big Mike’s tat emporium.
What Gieves & Hawkes?
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They made rotten overcoats when I was in the Navy. Stiff, heavy, cold, unbending; Bit like their present owner.
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I did pick something up (can’t remember where from) that the RFU were insisting any new base had to be in “the vicinity” of the CBSA. So maybe not a dealbreaker.
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Don't you just love the RFU. >:(
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I don’t think they’re sinister enough to hate. They are just very, very, very poor. Clueless, out of touch individuals presiding over a farce which has pushed them even further out of their depth than they already were.
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A report yesterday on the Skulls Wasps Facebook Group that the Administrators have completed the Sale of Wasps, now pending the Fit & Proper Person test for the new owners before the change is formally recognised on Companies House.
ETA: Just clocked this info on the snippets thread
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A report yesterday on the Skulls Wasps Facebook Group that the Administrators have completed the Sale of Wasps, now pending the Fit & Proper Person test for the new owners before the change is formally recognised on Companies House.
ETA: Just clocked this info on the snippets thread
Let's hope we don't hit the delay Worcester have had to ask for an extension.
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A report yesterday on the Skulls Wasps Facebook Group that the Administrators have completed the Sale of Wasps, now pending the Fit & Proper Person test for the new owners before the change is formally recognised on Companies House.
ETA: Just clocked this info on the snippets thread
Let's hope we don't hit the delay Worcester have had to ask for an extension.
Is the Warriors situation different? They haven't finalised a bid to be accepted/rejected. Whereas the report above suggests a sale has been completed?
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A report yesterday on the Skulls Wasps Facebook Group that the Administrators have completed the Sale of Wasps, now pending the Fit & Proper Person test for the new owners before the change is formally recognised on Companies House.
ETA: Just clocked this info on the snippets thread
Let's hope we don't hit the delay Worcester have had to ask for an extension.
Is the Warriors situation different? They haven't finalised a bid to be accepted/rejected. Whereas the report above suggests a sale has been completed?
We don't actually know. We actually know nothing about the Wasps situation - just rumours. We actually do know that the Worcester bid has hit delays which are acceptable to the Administrator (so outwith his or the bidders control - RFU anyone) and an extension has been granted.
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Don't know what it means but Pudsey saying he might have an exciting announcement at noon tomorrow.
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Don't know what it means but Pudsey saying he might have an exciting announcement at noon tomorrow.
I’m getting fed up with this sort of thing. If they keep marching us up the hill and then throwing us back down we might not want to march up when the time comes.
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+1
Once they have something to say I'll listen, and if it is thr club carrying on, and if it feels like the same club in anything but name and branding I'll probably follow them. But until they do I wish everyone would just stop implying good things are happening.
Right now I dislike rugby quite a lot, and being teased does not help.
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With you on that!
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+1
Once they have something to say I'll listen, and if it is thr club carrying on, and if it feels like the same club in anything but name and branding I'll probably follow them. But until they do I wish everyone would just stop implying good things are happening.
Right now I dislike rugby quite a lot, and being teased does not help.
You should watch Edinburgh it can do your head in.
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Don't know what it means but Pudsey saying he might have an exciting announcement at noon tomorrow.
Anything?
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Haven't seen anything on his Twitter (although today it has tolds me my account has been suspended for violating their terms - I haven't made any Twitter comments for over 12 months!),
Then his Tweet did say he MIGHT have news.
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The was a launchbury signed shirt giveaway on his Twitter at 11am.
I guess that's what he was referring to
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Nothing. I get the impression he gets carried away at times. Obviously a big fan but as has been said before, let us know when there is concrete news. Otherwise, stop winding us up.
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2 hours ago. Some-onejis launching called the Wasps Volunteer Force (WVF). Quite wot or why will presumably revealed later?
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Someone being Pudsey. Effectively the only Wasps employee, albeit indirectly, there is at the moment.
Looking forward to seeing what they're looking at doing. With the legends I'm aware of involved in the consortium I'm happy the club is in the best hands going forward.
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WVF — that needs a rethink! Assuming we get back into Europe in the not too distant future, I doubt it’s a name that will go down well across the Irish Sea.