Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: BG on November 25, 2019, 09:51:57 AM
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Out of all the signings this season (and possibly last) he is the one that has stood out.
He was signed from Loughborough Students (not even their 1st team I think) and despite being in our academy, he doesn't look out of place in our matchday squads.
Its would be just a guesstimate but I wouldn't be surprised if he is one of the players with the highest minutes played this season (given that he played in the 7's and premiership cup)... which has got me thinking..
He's in the academy and I believe someone on this forum said wages were restricted £30 - £40k whilst rubbing shoulders with teammates possibly on 5 - 10 times that.
Can he be promoted mid season? I think he's being used to cover for Garrat retiring, Gaskell being injured and Matthews.. who's either injured all fallen out of favour.
I presume whilst he's playing in the premiership games he's not adding to the salary cap either?
Are academy players restricted to how much senior premiership game time they can play ?
Surely, even at this early stage, Dai will have already offered a senior contract for next season?
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We were talking about this on Saturday at the match I think he is stuck in the Senior Academy this season due to Cap regulations (unlike EAs we probably play by the rules) but will have an extended full contract on the table for next year. Quite a find.
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Dai has previously hinted that it is now (in November) that next season's contracts are offered, and those who will be released will also, I suspect, be informed. All with the intent of everyone knowing where they stand before the New Year, which is when other prem clubs can contact our players. Except Academy players. Then, in January, Dai can talk to external senior players to fill any gaps. I am hoping there will be very few gaps this year, and those that there may be, may be filled with Academy players being promoted. Then I think he talks to Academy players in March.
That's not to say conversations cannot be had before then. In Tibo's case. I agree.
Does he, by being in the Academy this year, qualify as 'home grown', as he has not been in any other academy? Someone mentioned a rule about them signing at 18, but I can't find a mention of this in the rules. Tibo's route into pro rugby was rather unusual. Given his lack of physique at 18, nobody was interested in him. It was only his desire that kept him playing, as it does for so many amateurs. Then he went to Argentina, bulked up, switched from a lanky FH to beefy Lock and came back as we see him, and continued to work with a local (to Wasps) club and train the youngsters there, again in his role as keen amateur, and that way came to the notice of someone who brought him to the attention of Wasps some weeks before the Sevens. Wasps signed him up and gave him a no risk punt at the Sevens, and he was a revelation. The rest, they say, is history. To see a lock who sidesteps the tackle and then accelerates away is most unusual. The crowd on Saturday saw him do just that and make many yards as a result.
What I wonder is, how long before a French club offer him a lot of money? Right now he has to be worth upwards of £50k. How long before the French national team start to look at him? The French are not limited by our 'no contact' contract rules.
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If we can get him signed for a couple, the worst case is that a French club may come knocking down the line. Still a great boost.
Is there a chance he qualifys by residency as English? I am unsure on the rules these days....
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England qualification would be on the standard residency rules now wouldn't it? (Now 5 years?) I think the residency period is shorter for younger players who have come through their adopted country's academy system, but as he was 22 when we signed him I can't imagine he qualifies under anything other than the standard World Rugby rules. Although he was with Loughborough for 4 years before us, he took a year out playing in Argentina during that time, so I think residency would then have had to start from scratch again after that.
If he continues to catch the eye for Wasps but still not being picked for France, then moving to the Top 14 would be seen as a way to boost his chances. And if he's performing well enough for Wasps to get himself picked for France while still with us then offers would likely come forward that we wouldn't be able to compete with on salary.
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Residency is now 5 yrs (and rightly so) but I wonder how long he was in Argentina? A season, a full year and does that count as breaking the residency rules because presumably he was still a resident of the UK as he came back to the UK to live as a student.
If a foreign born player living in England decided to take a 3 month sabbatical travelling the SH would that break the EQP residency rules.
I know Jacob qualifies through birth, but he spent a year (season) in NZ didn't he?
Tibo does speak English with a French/East Midlands accent though which in my mind qualifies him ;D
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Residency is now 5 yrs (and rightly so) but I wonder how long he was in Argentina? A season, a full year and does that count as breaking the residency rules because presumably he was still a resident of the UK as he came back to the UK to live as a student.
If a foreign born player living in England decided to take a 3 month sabbatical travelling the SH would that break the EQP residency rules.
I know Jacob qualifies through birth, but he spent a year (season) in NZ didn't he?
Tibo does speak English with a French/East Midlands accent though which in my mind qualifies him ;D
that he can understand the East Midlands accent should be all the qualification he needs!!!
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Sadly, under Regulation 8, the time lived in the country have to be consecutive months. I imagine that would allow short breaks abroad, but as soon as a full month (I presume calendar) is taken abroad, the clock starts all over again. I have a feeling there is also a rule that does not count months spent in full time education, so only after university would any time count.
BUT. Residency is an odd word to use. Residency means you are 'legally' resident in a house, not necessarily living there. As long as he has a rent book, a utility bill in his name, he remains 'resident'.
How long was he in South America? A month, many months, a full year ....
Was it a gap year at uni? If it came down to it, I suspect World Rugby and English Rugby could be quite flexible, if they wanted to be.
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I though the 5 year rule was a change from the start of 2021
* though if the period has just started it will not reach 3 years before the new rule comes in
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Mmm.
If the 5 rule doesn't start yet, I suspect he will already have done 36 months here. We are not lawyers, but I would bet Wasps have looked that over.
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I though the 5 year rule was a change from the start of 2021
* though if the period has just started it will not reach 3 years before the new rule comes in
I thought 2021 was the year that 5yr qualified could (taking it back to 2016).. errr. qualify.. as opposed to starting the process at 2021..
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I think that is what I was attempting, probably poorly, to say.
If you don't achieve 3-years by 2021 you are under the 5-year rule?
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Can I be a bit old-fashioned and suggest that as a Frenchman he may actually want to play for France in the future?? Which would make conjecture over residency academic.
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You just had to spoil the debate by being blatantly sensible :) :)
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And why are already worrying about him leaving. Let’s just enjoy what a positive surprise he has been.
Well done Dai for funding him & putting him into the first squad so quickly.
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Mine, mine, my precious ......
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The residency period changes to 5 years on 31st December 2020, so effectively if a player has lived in England for 36 consecutive months since 31st December 2017, they would still be able to play in the 2021 6 Nations. Any player who moved in 2018 onwards will have to serve the 5 years.
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Been a real bonus hasn't he. And an important one given what's happened with JG and JL. Rowlands has impressed me more this season as well. An area which was (rightly) talked about as a potential issue looks a bit better now with this quartet and we've also got TV and TC in and around the squad. Not sure where it leaves Matthews.
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The Matthews - Symonds swap was a bit baffling at the time. More so now with the benefit of hindsight. Symonds has been playing regularly and well for Quins. Matthews has barely played for us, and only ever out of necessity. Given his experience he must've been signed with a view to him being firmly in the first team mix and rotating with JL, JG etc, but that just hasn't happened. Can't imagine their respective salaries were vastly different, so on the face of it, it doesn't look like a cap management* decision.
[* For the benefit of any Sarries fans reading, this is where a DoR has to make the very difficult decision to dispense with a player they would very much like to keep and replace them with someone with lower salary expectations in order to ensure that the club's overall spend on senior players' salaries remains within the league's agreed salary cap.]
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The Matthews - Symonds swap was a bit baffling at the time. More so now with the benefit of hindsight. Symonds has been playing regularly and well for Quins. Matthews has barely played for us, and only ever out of necessity. Given his experience he must've been signed with a view to him being firmly in the first team mix and rotating with JL, JG etc, but that just hasn't happened. Can't imagine their respective salaries were vastly different, so on the face of it, it doesn't look like a cap management* decision.
[* For the benefit of any Sarries fans reading, this is where a DoR has to make the very difficult decision to dispense with a player they would very much like to keep and replace them with someone with lower salary expectations in order to ensure that the club's overall spend on senior players' salaries remains within the league's agreed salary cap.]
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/11/26/saracens-open-fresh-audit-ensure-compliance-salary-cap/
Clearly they have finished hiding everything all is now above board at Salarysins
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The Matthews - Symonds swap was a bit baffling at the time. More so now with the benefit of hindsight. Symonds has been playing regularly and well for Quins. Matthews has barely played for us, and only ever out of necessity. Given his experience he must've been signed with a view to him being firmly in the first team mix and rotating with JL, JG etc, but that just hasn't happened. Can't imagine their respective salaries were vastly different, so on the face of it, it doesn't look like a cap management* decision.
[* For the benefit of any Sarries fans reading, this is where a DoR has to make the very difficult decision to dispense with a player they would very much like to keep and replace them with someone with lower salary expectations in order to ensure that the club's overall spend on senior players' salaries remains within the league's agreed salary cap.]
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/11/26/saracens-open-fresh-audit-ensure-compliance-salary-cap/
Clearly they have finished hiding everything all is now above board at Salarysins
Does make you think strongly that a severe clearance operation has now been completed. After last Wednesday's team meeting they all a re-signed up to where all their financial rewards are going to be hidden. Stinks.
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Opinions will polarize between those who think all is well and those who continue to believe something stinks, and the facts being under lock and key does not help that.
The current cap system appears to not have been designed to cater for a deliberate conspiracy to beat the cap where someone is determined to get around it at any cost to be on the winning side.
Not sure if such a system exists anywhere else.
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I think I mentioned elsewhere that it no longer matters whether they can show documentary evidence that they are clean or not. They were cheating the cap since 2013 / 14. They were found out in 2014, nothing changed and they immediately went on to cheat again for the subsequent 3 seasons. They have been found out again, nothing has changed again and yet they want us to believe that they are clean.
They have previous form on this, they have an inexplicably large number of internationals, Lions and senior players who probably should be internationals and the architect of this cheating is still running the club. They can show all the accounts they like, it will just confirm that they have another way around the cap and the cheating continues. The only thing that will convince most people that they are clean is if there are tangible, visible changes within the club. If they don't do that then everything they touch will be tainted.
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The Matthews - Symonds swap was a bit baffling at the time. More so now with the benefit of hindsight. Symonds has been playing regularly and well for Quins. Matthews has barely played for us, and only ever out of necessity. Given his experience he must've been signed with a view to him being firmly in the first team mix and rotating with JL, JG etc, but that just hasn't happened. Can't imagine their respective salaries were vastly different, so on the face of it, it doesn't look like a cap management* decision.
[* For the benefit of any Sarries fans reading, this is where a DoR has to make the very difficult decision to dispense with a player they would very much like to keep and replace them with someone with lower salary expectations in order to ensure that the club's overall spend on senior players' salaries remains within the league's agreed salary cap.]
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/11/26/saracens-open-fresh-audit-ensure-compliance-salary-cap/
Clearly they have finished hiding everything all is now above board at Salarysins
Does make you think strongly that a severe clearance operation has now been completed. After last Wednesday's team meeting they all a re-signed up to where all their financial rewards are going to be hidden. Stinks.
All financial records have now been shredded and hidden. Only the official Salarycens records now exist. all co-investments will now be hidden offshore and financed through offshore shell companies. Some Maltese government financial experts, on loan from Sicily, have been assisting with the burial process. All clean here, move on, nothing to be seen.
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A chain of Nige's Laundrettes will be opening soon
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Yet another thread ending up about Sarries......should we rename the board "Once a Sarrie....always a cheat"?
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Tibo is coming on nicely and is obviously turning heads at the club - probably unexpectedly!
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I think he's been quality, a real find. I had no idea that he had played 10 until that snippet in the commentary.
I think long-term his future could be at 6, but he has been brilliant. I confess I had forgotten about Matthews until he was mentioned further up the thread. I actually think he offers us a lot, but his continued absence is just baffling. Maybe he was being saved for the league games and we'll see him at Sandy Park?
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his continued absence is just baffling
Why is it baffling?
Surely its a sign that he's not doing in training, or the games he's played, what the coaches want him to do?
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his continued absence is just baffling
Why is it baffling?
Surely its a sign that he's not doing in training, or the games he's played, what the coaches want him to do?
I think it's more that he's done well in the games I've seen him play in, and yet doesn't get many opportunities - despite the fact that from what I've seen he's contributed more than Gaskell or Rowlands. But as you say, there's far more that goes on away from game day that we don't see.
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Found an article on a French Rugby website about Tibo. Translation from Google...
At the age of 22, who is Thibaud Flament, this Frenchman who is gaining power in the Wasps?
He seems "out of nowhere," a 22-year-old Frenchman from Argentina and the Premiership now plays for the Wasps.
It's a story that begins four years ago, the story of a barely major trotting globe landing in England . Thibaud Flament , a young Parisian, meets at the European capital, Brussels, at the age of three. Until he was 18, he is a pure product of the Belgian system, whether school or sports.
Today, he plays Premiership games with Wasps at only 22 years old. Thibaud evolves to a position where the maturity comes later, a position full of future for a XV of France in search of identity. And identity, it is clear at Thibaud: playing in the blue jersey would be a dream for the globetrotter. Browse the country to better meet, travel to know each other and manage to grow. A profile that goes perfectly to his second line job.
The university system
Thibaud Flament enrolls at Loughborough University located between Leicester and Coventry. This university is among other famous for its rugby team that brews for several years of future professionals. Loughborough Students was playing at the time in National League One, the third level of the English rugby hierarchy. Many internationals have made their debut in the past, the Ben Kay, Ollie Smith, Tony Diprose, Daniel Hipkiss, the former Castrais Phil Christophers, a certain Clive Woodward and more recently Henry Pyrgos . Upon arrival, Flament played with University Team 5 at the half-open position. Post that was probably not appropriate for a boy of his size (more than 2 meters).
The Argentine call
The following year he spent in Argentina , in a famous club, that of Newman, in Buenos Aires, where he seems to have progressed a lot. Reposed to the second line, a position more in line with his size and his natural qualities, he returns to Loughborough University and this time includes the senior team.
The bee always comes back
His performances attract the eye of Wasps recruiters . That he joined last season, incorporated in the Wasps A squad. The latter participates in the reserve championship ( Premiership Rugby Shield, commonly known as the A-league, which traditionally takes place on Monday nights). A competition that brings together pro players lacking playing time, recovery after injury, the best young Academy and the best players of Universities "partners". On the record Wasps, it is announced at 2.03 meters, for 110 kilos:
"The Frenchman played in the 2018/19 Premiership Rugby Shield match with the Wasps, and he made a name for himself in the Premiership Rugby Shield in the 2019 campaign, scoring two tries and leading Wasps for a sixth consecutive final, barely a week later, he made his first team debut against the Saracens in Cup (competition this year, in September and early October, during the World Cup , before the resumption of the championship.) He made his four match sheets from the start of the championship (one as a titular). "
For his university coach, Geratd Mullen, this is the most impressive progression he has encountered: from team 5 of the University to the pro team. The Coventry Live speaks about him as a "fairy tale" on the eve of his match against the Saracens in the Ricoh Arena. British media reports that his visit to Argentina has been very beneficial. Gerard Mullen confirms: "a big part of his development happened during his year in Argentina, it went very well, he came back to us and we were really surprised by his development. year in our first team in the national category, where he was one of the most outstanding players in the league. It does not surprise me that he is knocking on the first Wasps team. This is a second line or number six that has exceptional skill qualities with a ball".
In a team that has just lost Marcus Garratt , a premature retirement, the 22-year-old French already has 3 Cup matches, 4 Premiership and 1 European Challenge. He entered an essay and was three times titular. But who better to talk about it than the concerned himself? At the end of the line, a young person full of ambition and realistic about the work to be done to achieve a dream that few people touch. Thibaud assumes his ambitions and he can.
How did you come to England?
Yes, I am French, I am now 22 years old and a native of Paris. I arrived in Brussels when I was three years old and started rugby when I was 8 years old. I played in the club ASUB until I was 18 as number 10 and behind, all that while being in French high school in Brussels. After my baccalaureate, I still wanted to play rugby and study so the best option was England. I was at Loughborough University and got there I joined Team 5, the lowest team, as the second line this time. At the end of the first year, the coaches of the team approached me because they wanted me to progress. So in the second year I train with the team one and two and I played with the team 3. The One team was playing in Federal English 1 and my third year was the year of my internship. I realized it in Argentina, for a year at the commercial department of the French Embassy. Next door, I played at Newman's club playing in the first division. Again, I started in team 5, then 4, then 3, 2 and I ended up in team one until playing the final of the national championship at stadium Velez after the Jaguares . Then I returned for my fourth and final year of study in Loughborough.
And when you return to England?
I joined the team one in Federal English 1 of the university until last year. The season went very well, I had plans to return to France, except that it did not take we will say. Meanwhile, in December of last year, the Wasps asked me and they offered me to do physical tests at home. In January, they offered me a two-year hope contract that I signed at the end of February. I arrived in June at the training center and everything went very fast. I joined the team one and it's been since mid-August that I train and I play with the first. I started playing the Cup games, which is a little team two, and then they made me play the Premiership. Today' . Well, everything is going very fast, it's accelerating and I'm very happy.
You are considered a traveler.
Yes. Kind of. I played in Belgium, Argentina, England and I would like to play in France, Super Rugby . I want to taste a little bit of everything yes.
And your studies ?
I did a business school, I have a Bachelor in Commerce so. I plan to do a master at a time, but not for now, I give myself time to see how rugby evolves.
How did you get to play the European Challenge in such a short time?
Marcus Garrat left on injury, so we are 7 second lines postulants today including Launchbury who was at the World Cup. For me it's crazy to play with him, Fekitoa, Brad Shields , etc.
They room you a little on the XV of France?
No not too much ! Not really. Or not yet, it'll come I feel it.
French Passport so ...
That's it, I'm 100% French, I have a French passport, I was born in Paris and I have family in France.
And so ?
Ah yes, that's for sure. Since I started rugby it's my dream. I watch the France team all the time. It's my dream to play with the France team, to play a World Cup. They are objective dreams, I do everything to succeed in touching that.
Your university coach said you had made it to Argentina.
Yes, I had a click. I do not know, it's being in Latin America, managing my own life for the first time. I was no longer in the university circuit, so I had to go out on my own. I left there without internship, I found it on the spot. I just had a rugby club, at night I did not even know where to sleep. To "dépatauger"from this situation, there was a click and everything started to get well. Everything was great: my internship, rugby, etc. The community is superb, I always have very strong links with the players, the parents of players and the whole club in general. The alchemy of the whole thing did that. Since I was in training, I had no summer vacation so I spent three months in the off-season to do 6 sessions of muscu per week, to run after and before work. It paid on the post-season.
So you are a pure product of the Belgian training?
I played at the ASUB in Brussels, with which we were champion of Belgium in less than 18. This is my first club, I always have a special link with this club.
Do you want to stay in England or play in France?
For now, my goal is to continue to grow here, I'm learning a lot from the Wasps. I want to try to play as much as possible this year. I always dream of playing for the France team, whether from England or from France. I do not know yet, I focus on the immediate.
There is a club that makes you dream in France?
Yes ! There are many. Clubs where there is a good audience, after I do not have a particular club, but to play in France it would be special for me. We will see as and when. Everything in its time.
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Even with the rough translation, that is an excellent article, the research and content shine through. Sadly, sounds like he want to have an adventure, so I guess we need to enjoy him while we can.
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Even with the rough translation, that is an excellent article, the research and content shine through. Sadly, sounds like he want to have an adventure, so I guess we need to enjoy him while we can.
Can we remember this when he leaves and not put the blame on the coaches :)
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And was very clear as to where his international ambitions lie. Sounds like we might struggle to keep him long-term, but reasons are entirely understandable.
A hell of a find. Well done to whoever it was at Wasps that first spotted his potential.
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It sounds like he wants to stay at Wasps after this season so hopefully that means a 2 - 3 yr snr contract.
Do France have a selection policy regarding french players plying their trade abroad?
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It sounds like he wants to stay at Wasps after this season so hopefully that means a 2 - 3 yr snr contract.
Do France have a selection policy regarding french players plying their trade abroad?
Don't think so. Picamoles was still playing for them while at Saints.