Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: jamestaylor002 on November 02, 2020, 11:50:57 PM
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How true this is I couldn't possibly comment but it wouldn't surprise me about Saracens!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-8906987/amp/Saracens-set-promotion-Premiership-without-playing-single-game.html?__twitter_impression=true (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-8906987/amp/Saracens-set-promotion-Premiership-without-playing-single-game.html?__twitter_impression=true)
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Premiership clubs might want them back, but I doubt if the fans on the whole do, and upsetting fans whilst asking for season ticket monies as a gesture of good will don't seem compatible.
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Surely part of the reason that relegation is such a severe consequence is that promotion again is never guaranteed?
I am genuinely disgusted at the way people in the media fawn over them. They are cheats, every ounce of success they had over the last few years they stole from other clubs. They shouldn't be allowed to keep the trophies they "won", they shouldn't be allowed to keep the extra revenue they "earned" and they should be treated like any other Championship team until they earn the right to play with the teams who aren't cheats.
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Surely part of the reason that relegation is such a severe consequence is that promotion again is never guaranteed?
I am genuinely disgusted at the way people in the media fawn over them. They are cheats, every ounce of success they had over the last few years they stole from other clubs. They shouldn't be allowed to keep the trophies they "won", they shouldn't be allowed to keep the extra revenue they "earned" and they should be treated like any other Championship team until they earn the right to play with the teams who aren't cheats.
We have a +1 here!
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As much as I agree with everything said above, sadly, however strong the feeling among fans of other clubs, there is an inevitability to Sarries coming back up with or without playing a game in the Championship.
Allowing them to come up and replace the 12th placed Prem team without kicking a ball in the Championship would face an inevitable legal challenge from Leicester (sorry, I mean the relegated team!), and a 13 team league doesn't really work and could face its own legal challenge from Ealing and perhaps others in the Championship. I read this that Ealing have been given a leg up to avert a court battle to contest Sarries being promoted based on reputation alone. Other Championship clubs could legitimately argue their own right to promotion is no different to that of Sarries or Ealing, but if none of them is prepared to put their money where their mouth is and buy in as Ealing reportedly are then that might just be that.
It stinks that Sarries punishment might be no more than to sit out a season that's being played behind closed doors anyway. Much as we'd all love it if no Championship 20/21 meant they had to sit tight for another year, that was never really any more than a fantasy. It ain't fair, but then what is at the moment?
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The article mentions Ealing becoming shareholders in the Premiership.
How did we end up with 13 shareholders? The league has always been 12 since the courage days (I think) and Exeter bought theirs off the tykes. Was it a case of one team relegated season before included as anticipated they would bounce back?
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The article mentions Ealing becoming shareholders in the Premiership.
How did we end up with 13 shareholders? The league has always been 12 since the courage days (I think) and Exeter bought theirs off the tykes. Was it a case of one team relegated season before included as anticipated they would bounce back?
This is Ealing buying a 14th share. There are 13 Shareholders currently which is a strange number. I can see other clubs rounding up lawyers if such is handed to Ealing.
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Another big question mark over this would be Ealing's financial viability. Ground nowhere near Premiership standard, so would require an expensive ground share, and locally Brentford is already accounted for, so might end up much further afield (Wycombe???). They are financed by a travel company. Hardly a booming business right now or at any time in the near future. Could be London Welsh all over again.
If we remove the need to earn a place in the Premiership and simply offer extra shares out to a hand picked club with cash to burn, then better to look at it geographically as there is no need for a 4th London team in the Premiership.
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This is typical Sarries luck isn't it.
Rightly relegated and due to spend a year with the indignity of playing in shitty locations against teams that want to take a piece of them, watched by 5 guys and a dog, no real income to speak of...Covid lands and they get a year off to train and recoup, don't have to go anywhere, actually reduce operational costs all while everyone in the prem suffer financial impacts.
Couldn't write it.
And..they are still on SportsNetwork as a prem club, I believe falcons dropped out pretty much as soon as the season wrapped up..
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Another big question mark over this would be Ealing's financial viability.
Mike Gooley (aka Trailfinders), the owner, is worth around £400M. He is quoted as saying that he would invest whatever is needed, to secure a place for Ealing at the top table.
20/21 Premiership season is already sorted so all the Championship clubs might be kicking their heels until next Sepetember.
A 14 club Premiership gives 26 matches per club. That would almost certainly kick out any other competition than the Euros. Unless of course the awful conference system is adopted. Max then is 12 + 3 matches for the finalists. Clubs would certainly not like losing the revenue from at least 5 home games a season.
Ring fence a 14 team Premiership and suddenly the opportunity to blood players at the highest level (without fear of relegation) becomes a distinct possibility.
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Another big question mark over this would be Ealing's financial viability.
Mike Gooley (aka Trailfinders), the owner, is worth around £400M. He is quoted as saying that he would invest whatever is needed, to secure a place for Ealing at the top table.
But Trailfinders cannot possibly be worth that kind of money in the present environment. He may have been worth £400m at the start of this year when we were all still merrily booking our holidays, but that valuation has probably dropped off a cliff in the past 8 months. Hardly solid foundations for a Premiership rugby club. I have a soft spot for Ealing as I lived there for many years, at one time just a stone's throw from the Trailfinders sports ground. I would hate to see them bite off more that they can chew and a wealthy owner's ego and ambition see them go the way of London Welsh. I may be doing Gooley a disservice, but professional rugby clubs are loss making businesses, as are most travel firms at the moment. Not a good position to be in.
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Just by looking around there are a few other clubs livid at the suggestion of an under the table deal for another London club.
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Does it make commercial sense to promote Ealing?
Their ground is 3 miles as the crow flies from Brentford and around 5.2 miles from the Stoop. They'll most likely add to an already overcrowded market. Their average attendance for 2019/20 was 903, down from 1,036 the season before (although last season was the first time they haven't been in the bottom two places for average attendances since they won promotion in 2015) so it's not like they already have a big following.
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Sort of partially answered on other thread but... keep relegation and so keep BT money. Ealing get automatically promoted and buy P shares off Saracens. Saracens join Pro 14 so don’t have to worry about salary cap. Everyone’s a winner!
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Sort of partially answered on other thread but... keep relegation and so keep BT money. Ealing get automatically promoted and buy P shares off Saracens. Saracens join Pro 14 so don’t have to worry about salary cap. Everyone’s a winner!
Brilliant, I'm going to put that on my Xmas list.
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Another big question mark over this would be Ealing's financial viability.
Mike Gooley (aka Trailfinders), the owner, is worth around £400M. He is quoted as saying that he would invest whatever is needed, to secure a place for Ealing at the top table.
But Trailfinders cannot possibly be worth that kind of money in the present environment. He may have been worth £400m at the start of this year when we were all still merrily booking our holidays, but that valuation has probably dropped off a cliff in the past 8 months. Hardly solid foundations for a Premiership rugby club. I have a soft spot for Ealing as I lived there for many years, at one time just a stone's throw from the Trailfinders sports ground. I would hate to see them bite off more that they can chew and a wealthy owner's ego and ambition see them go the way of London Welsh. I may be doing Gooley a disservice, but professional rugby clubs are loss making businesses, as are most travel firms at the moment. Not a good position to be in.
Looking at Companies House, Trailfinders seems to be another web of companies. It seems he has 75% or more stock of 1 company.. via another company. I'm guessing his "worth" is valued by his 75% at a given time of trading (18 - 24 months ago). Like you say.. what's that worth now? Do travel companies own assets?
Changing the subject slightly.. their offices are in Earls Court. My first skiing holiday started there.. 1989. We (loosely connected friends from uni . . well it was a poly back then) took a coach from Earls Court to Andorra.. only 30 hrs or something ( :-\) . I have a feeling it was Trailfinders.
Having promised myself I'd never do the same thing again.. glutton for punishment... I did, but closer that next time.. Trois Vallees in the Alps.
Back to rugby - to ringfence the EPL I don't see the need for 14 clubs (possibly bankrupting Ealing).. stick to 13 and 1 club has 1 week-end off every round?
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problem with a 13 team league is the last fixture of the season, for example the season just gone if Sale had finished their season and had no game on the last day and could finish no better than 5th, then both Bath and Bristol could play 3rd teams and rest players for the semi's
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If there is ring fencing do we need play offs?
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Definitely, possible expanded to 8 teams, otherwise the league would be meaningless after a few rounds...or manipulatable. Imagine Exeter (without the cheats); the season could easily be meaningless after a few rounds, or during the international periods the skew on the impacts on various squads could make the league meaningless. Also, imagine if the Cheats were challenging Exeter then sides could put out weakened sides vs Exeter and full sides against the cheats (highly unprofessional, but possible). Keeping the playoffs would keep more teams interested.
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Is the plan to stop relegation forever or just for next season to facilitate the increase from 12 to 14? Because there's no reason a 14 team league couldn't have relegation. Even if it's split into 2 divisions there could be a relegation playoff between the bottom team of each division. That even increases the number of teams battling relegation so reduces the number of 'meaningless games' fans and broadcasters are worried about.
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As soon as the threat of relegation disappeared last season, Wasps started playing the best rugby they have played in years.
Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.
Questions:
Does relegation blunt teams' ability to be creative and more attack-minded?
And does this (playing it safer) impact on the evolution of English rugby as a whole?
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As soon as the threat of relegation disappeared last season, Wasps started playing the best rugby they have played in years.
Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.
Questions:
Does relegation blunt teams' ability to be creative and more attack-minded?
And does this (playing it safer) impact on the evolution of English rugby as a whole?
I have no idea
But did any other team near the bottom start playing fantastic rugby once the threat of relegation disappeared?
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As soon as the threat of relegation disappeared last season, Wasps started playing the best rugby they have played in years.
Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.
Questions:
Does relegation blunt teams' ability to be creative and more attack-minded?
And does this (playing it safer) impact on the evolution of English rugby as a whole?
I have no idea
But did any other team near the bottom start playing fantastic rugby once the threat of relegation disappeared?
Agree, and I lost count of the amount of games I zoned out of due to uncompetitiveness.
More worryingly it scews the league. Imagine, you play Glaws early in the season and lose to their first team. Towards the end of the season when they have nothing to play for they field a weak side against your rivals, who get 5 points and knock you out of the playoffs. Ringfencing removes integrity, you could become champions through the fixtures schedule alone.
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As soon as the threat of relegation disappeared last season, Wasps started playing the best rugby they have played in years.
Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.
Questions:
Does relegation blunt teams' ability to be creative and more attack-minded?
And does this (playing it safer) impact on the evolution of English rugby as a whole?
I have no idea
But did any other team near the bottom start playing fantastic rugby once the threat of relegation disappeared?
Agree, and I lost count of the amount of games I zoned out of due to uncompetitiveness.
More worryingly it scews the league. Imagine, you play Glaws early in the season and lose to their first team. Towards the end of the season when they have nothing to play for they field a weak side against your rivals, who get 5 points and knock you out of the playoffs. Ringfencing removes integrity, you could become champions through the fixtures schedule alone.
I hear you.
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A 14 club Premiership gives 26 matches per club. That would almost certainly kick out any other competition than the Euros. Unless of course the awful conference system is adopted. Max then is 12 + 3 matches for the finalists. Clubs would certainly not like losing the revenue from at least 5 home games a season.
It also means more games during internationals with all the downsides - lost players, lower crowds etc.
More importantly a bigger player welfare issue:
More games means more injuries, through just being tired and parts of the body giving up, or the usual rugby injuries. This means bigger squads.
Or the same number of games for players and bigger squads.
In both those cases either the salary cap needs to be increased or players take pay cts. No need to go in to those problems on here.
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Isn't this just the Cheaters doing a bit of fishing?
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Bl**dy hope so!
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This is a no win situation. if the Championship is cancelled how can you promote a team or teams without creating havoc with the other teams in that league? if we don't have relegation and promotion BT want a wedge of their cash back. i'd like nothing more than to see the EA's spend two seasons out of the premiership but can't see it being allowed to happen. if we did end up with a 14 team league would it be such a bad thing? two extra home fixtures with the extra cash that brings and would mean clubs would need to use their full squad and develop their youth (didn't do us any harm this season), if these fixtures replaced the domestic cup games i'd be happy enough.
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If Premiership were to go to 14 teams would there be extra places in Euro challenge cup?
So incentive for clubs ,if ring fenced, would be not to finish bottom two.
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I don't see how you can have a truly competitive league without relegation and promotion. Teams like Worcester, Irish and Leicester could give up if with 5 games to go they couldn't improve their position and could play weakened teams blooding new young players in preparation for the following season so giving teams they play an advantage, the play offs could end up being decided by the fixture list.