Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Vespula Vulgaris on December 05, 2020, 06:57:26 PM
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This is the same squad that started post lockdown and couldn't lose whoever they put out.
The played with confidence and flair and were one dodgy throw away from winning the title.
Now they couldn't win at pass the parcel if Lee was on the music.
So what has changed? Is it the hangover from the final? Is it the missing players? Or something else.
This is as bad as the half season before Dai left.
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Leadership for one. Hopefully we will see an improvement with our gang of 4 back from international duty.
You can’t help but look at what the Chiefs are doing. 3 games in, 15 points and looking nailed on to repeat the double.
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Combination of missing players and final hangover. The confidence will come back but it'll take time.
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They have changed game tactics, to a more conservative style. No idea why. 'Play it safe' seems to be the motto. And 'safe' loses games.
The classic coaching dilemma. The team was allowed to go free, nothing to lose. So the coach then tries to turn that into a 'style of play', and then tinkers with it. So the players are no longer playing their natural game. The more it goes wrong, the more the coaches will tinker, and by Christmas we will be close to the bottom. With everything to lose.
Death by micro management. If Lee does not recognise what he and his coaches have done wrong, before Monday, then his job is doomed. Time to cut the players loose.
Lima, Jimmy and Jacob had a bad day because someone in the coaching team decided to change the way they play. Did an Eddie on them.
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I don't think much has changed. As such I don't think we're far away. I don't think overall we're anything like the team from phase 1 of last season. Our defence is still better, we can score tries and our scrum can dominate. We have some great academy talent emerging. So why aren't we winning? When Willis plays we get half a dozen turnovers a game. When he doesn't we get 1 or 2. Thats a factor. To an extent we're victims of our own success as we really miss the power of Launch and Will and the zip and creativity of Dan. Plus we're unnecessarily disrupted by Eddies absurd "apprentice" scheme. Then we have lots of injuries - the first 40 seconds summed up our luck on that front. No time for panic, as poor as today was we have the tools to be more than OK.
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Lack of power in the 2nd row without Joe or will
Lack of experience in the back row and no Willis turnovers
A weakened scrum probably made things trickier for Barbeary
3rd/4th choice scrum halves. Good players but lack experience
A rare off day for Jimmy's boot
Inexperience at 13, albeit one of the few highlights
Its the same squad, but a very different team at the moment
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They have changed game tactics, to a more conservative style. No idea why. 'Play it safe' seems to be the motto. And 'safe' loses games.
The classic coaching dilemma. The team was allowed to go free, nothing to lose. So the coach then tries to turn that into a 'style of play', and then tinkers with it. So the players are no longer playing their natural game. The more it goes wrong, the more the coaches will tinker, and by Christmas we will be close to the bottom. With everything to lose.
Death by micro management. If Lee does not recognise what he and his coaches have done wrong, before Monday, then his job is doomed. Time to cut the players loose.
Lima, Jimmy and Jacob had a bad day because someone in the coaching team decided to change the way they play. Did an Eddie on them.
Sounds strikingly similar to what happened with Dai, but out of curiosity how did you arrive at this theory? I'm curious is all, don't necessarily disagree
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The weather?
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The weather?
It was hammering down in the final and we put on a much better show than we have for the last three matches.
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Yes. But we got there in the dry. We lost to Sale in sh*tty weather.
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Maybe NWW has something.
Wasps had, along with Exeter, the shortest break. Almost immediately we lost some senior players to a stupid international tournament. Then at times we have lost others without knowing who might come back. The team on Monday/ Tuesday with returnees is not the same from Thursday onwards. Are some players noses out of joint? Anyway at least some disruption. Add to that major injuries to some remaining senior players (eg Brad and Malakai). Apparent refereeing changes of interpretation. Wasps seemingly getting lumbered with junior officials regularly.
All seems to almost be a perfect storm. Young coaches who now see things going awry and having little experience of digging a team out of a rut.
The possible upturn could be a bit of time with the internationals returning and pulling the playing side together. They need to. You would hope the the injured senior players would be part of the discussions.
Rambling thoughts.
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With respect NWW "'Play it safe' seems to be the motto" is b*llocks.
The reverse is true.
Badly judged wafted passes to nowhere, hopeful kicks, offloads that are always going forwards etc
Defence not quite organised and oppressive enough, and forcing the attack partly because the lineout is going t*ts up.
The margins are quite fine, and we scored three tries today and four last week.
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With respect NWW "'Play it safe' seems to be the motto" is b*llocks.
The reverse is true.
Badly judged wafted passes to nowhere, hopeful kicks, offloads that are always going forwards etc
Defence not quite organised and oppressive enough, and forcing the attack partly because the lineout is going t*ts up.
The margins are quite fine, and we scored three tries today and four last week.
Yes, agree with this. I don't think we're playing it safe, I think we're trying to force things. It was ridiculous today the amount of times we threw obvious forward passes rather than just recycling. We got to the final last year by combining flair with patience. We've got to go back to that.
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With respect NWW "'Play it safe' seems to be the motto" is b*llocks.
The reverse is true.
Badly judged wafted passes to nowhere, hopeful kicks, offloads that are always going forwards etc
Defence not quite organised and oppressive enough, and forcing the attack partly because the lineout is going t*ts up.
The margins are quite fine, and we scored three tries today and four last week.
I'm with you, playing safe we might have held onto the ball, what we were playing doesn't have a name yet.
We played one game later than Bath / Bristol. We can come up with a multitude of possible excuses when actually we there are no excuses.
I said last season we were punching above our weight, what I didn't realise was what we are producing now, is the level we are really at and that's a shock.Given i watch every game, Im not being dramatic when I say on form we are the worst team in the prem.
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I don’t know about others but I find it hard to be as objective as I’d like on the day of a game: there’s always a bit too much emotion that can cloud judgement and I’ll have only watched the game the once and may not have picked up on many things.
There seem to be a few different ideas floating around about what has happened so far this season and why we are not performing anything like the way we were only a few short weeks ago.
I partly agree with Nelly in how the freedom to express and play with fewer boundaries, the ‘chaos’ style was/is important to our ‘success’ (even if we didn’t actually win anything). But I have a couple of reservations about it. Firstly, it is important that a team has a style of play – a system – that means that players can drop in or out easily without causing major change or disruption to the team as a whole (see Chiefs for the most prominent and successful example in the GP). Just telling players to play their ‘natural game’ won’t work when there you have to deal with changes, particularly to play-makers. I think we were part of the way there, we did/do have a style and a system, it did/does encourage creativity and freedom but it is reliant on certain parts of our game and certain players and our missing key players is having a major impact on this – not just because they are good rugby players but because their style of play is so important to what we do well.
Ask anyone who’s taken an interest what has characterised Wasps since August and they’d probably say our intensity at the breakdown. Not necessarily just the jackal turnovers Willis has won, but just how hard we compete and hassle and force teams to commit players and slow their ball down. Launchbury and Rowlands in particular excel here. Will Rowlands loves getting stuck into a ruck and has been much better at controlling his discipline, then add Willis and Shields and from the backs, Fekitoa too. Off those players we had Shields for about 30 mins and Willis for a game (which we won). Ben Morris was good today but the last two games have seen the opposition have a much easier time at the breakdown. They’ve had quicker ball and therefore been able to run at a less structured defence. This isn’t an area we can just say – get better at disrupting the breakdown. It’s an art, because it’s so easy to get pinged, and for all his fantastic attributes, Alfie Barberry is not a natural backrow with the dark arts mastery of a Shields or Willis and we saw with a couple of seasons of Will Rowlands penalty magnetism that that level of disruption isn’t something Cardall or Gaskell can just pick up. Indeed, Gaskell tried a bit against Gloucester and was penalised repeatedly in the first half. This for me is the issue with our defence so far this season – and it hasn’t been bad, just not as good as it had been. Also, the loss of Fekitoa is important and I know that no team should be overly reliant on a player but he was the defensive lead and gave that intensity. We all saw the boost those big hits gave to the team and the surety of having him there. De Jong seemed to have been carrying a knock against Gloucester and Odogwu was good today, but it’s a new position for him.
In attack it’s similar. Robson was important to us as he combined quick ball with accuracy and a good kicking game. Vellacott was slow and Wolstenholme inaccurate – neither are bad players but neither is Robson. Robson’s kicking is a sometimes overlooked part of his game but it’s so key to his management and ability to change it up and relieve pressure etc and none of our other 9s have his ability. As an aside, I liked Porter when he came on today. At 10, Jacob had a stinker today. Not his first and won’t be his last but he does miss more touch-finders than he should and his ‘close to the line’ play-making won’t always work. What I think is key for these few matches is that he has had hardly any time with the team in training. I’m not going to attack Eddie Jones (who is doing what he needs to win games) but how much has Jacob been in training? It has been made clear that he is an important voice and a bit of a leader in training and team meetings and laying down what he wants. If he is not there in the week, it can be difficult to rehearse the set plays and first phase moves and just to get a feel for each other again. Both weeks he’s played, he’s come in from England training on the Wednesday/Thursday and then had a concussion in between. Also, without the back-five issues in the pack, ball hasn’t been as quick or clean and that makes a difference. The other issue with training is the amount of injuries. Obvioulsy we’re missing the internationals and Shields, Tom Willis, Mills but also Vailanu, Curran, Spink, Watson, Simonds, Miller who may not be in the 23 but provide a motivation and opposition in training – if there are only 25 or so people at training, the intensity may well be lower. Minor point but even little things build.
Of course confidence will be an issue. I don’t think, as I saw on one forum – either here or DW – that we are only playing at 20%, just that we are 5-10% below but that has an impact and when something doesn’t work, we maybe try too hard and force it the next time and that then also doesn’t work. Handling errors mount up and confidence drops. Lineouts are also an issue, Taylor’s throwing has been off but he’s had several different callers, plus Douglas doesn’t seem to be an option and missing the first line 2nd row and Shields won’t help. Teams are also wise to our strength in the scrum (see for example how Falcons got ball in and out as quick as possible and got Graham to break from the base as soon as the ball was in the 2nd row channel, not giving us a chance to push them back).
I don’t think we were as good as we were made out to be at the end of last season to be honest. We had some luck and we were high on confidence but we are no where near as bad as some people are making out at the moment. Form is a bit all over the place for most teams at the moment and I think there will be a lot of changes (except for Exeter at the top) over the next few months but I still expect us to be pushing for top 4 at the end of the year.
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No matter when you watch the game Jaq, the spilled balls, intercepts, awful kicks will still be there..but I respect each to their own
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No matter when you watch the game Jaq, the spilled balls, intercepts, awful kicks will still be there..but I respect each to their own
They will, and the result will still be the same too. But I know that at the end of todays game I was saying that I can't remember a worse performance. I'm sure if I can be bothered to watch it again in the week I'll see some things that I didn't notice at the time because I was swearing at Umaga for missing touch or Cardall for whatever that nonsense thing he did in the line out was. But I'll also have probably remembered at least half a dozen equally dire performances we've put in over the years which will give me a bit more perspective.
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Don't underestimate the role of confidence and how it affects all sportsmen (and women) and feeds in to a teams performance:
The batsman who scores freely seems to get all the breaks, nicks fly over or through the slips, big shots go just over the boundary fielders' heads or just wide of them, when they get bowled it turns out to have been a no-ball. Their team mates feed off this and they seem unstoppable.
Then, all of a sudden something inexplicable happens and nicks get caught, they can't hit the ball off the square and everything starts going wrong. They tighten up and that makes it worse and they start to play against the percentages to try to break their bad luck and it gets even worse.
I think we've seen something similar. After the break Jimmy rarely missed a kick, Jacob was finding massive touch kicks, long passes were going to hand etc. Everything they tried worked. This not only gave them confidence but also made the opposition wary. You even get the better end of refs' 50/50 calls and rarely pick up injuries.
Then, inexplicably, Jimmy misses a simple kick, Jacob misses a touch and they return it with interest, a long pass doesn't go to hand and gets dropped, the ball gets spilled in tackles, a tackle is missed. All of a sudden you start doubting yourself and getting tense. To make it worse the ref seems to have it in for you and you get more of those "rugby accidents" that we saw at the start of yesterday's game. It seems like a downward spiral
How to break that is one of sports mysteries, we were in a similar position at the start of the year and Dai left. Whether its the fresh start or something else is difficult to even guess at as an outsider, but I'm not advocating sacking coaches every time you go on one of these slumps.
Maybe we're not going to be the runaway league leaders and the style of play we had at the end of last season will mean the opposition are in with a chance of scoring, but the attitude of we'll score more can overcome that, but we will lose games. Its not the losing, its the manner of the loss that's dispiriting and feeds the lack of confidence.
Hopefully Joe, Will, Jack and Dobbie back will be that change and a catalyst for a couple of wins to rebuild build that confidence, not just with the players but with the coaches as well because they must be doubting themselves and that will feed in to the squad.
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We need one of the three other 9s to nail down the spot when Robson is not there.
A confident 9 playing well helps out both the forwards and backs giving them direction and time, he also can communicate the most with the ref about what's going on around the breakdown and adapt the game plan to it.
We have seen 2 experienced opposition 9s do exactly that in the last 2 games against us.
So far none of them have really managed that for more than a short period in a game, I had high hopes for Vellacott who I thought was a good signing and still do but the injury seems to have set him back more than we might have thought.
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Defence not quite organised and oppressive enough - Malakai and forcing the attack partly because the lineout is going t*ts up - Joe and Will.
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Was Jimmy injured when he first came on the field or did it happen when he kicked that penalty?? No excuses but the team was beset by constant injuries finishing up with Umaga seeingly soldiering on with a broken cheek bone (or similiar) and Levi barely able to use his left eye. I like YY but have always had reservations about his captaincy - it never seems to go well. 2 young players would appear to have been messed up by EJ. I am now going to the Libraary with a bottle of brandy and a loaded pistol.
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Confidence and just luck play a big part in getting results. Look at the Saints, Briz game, decided on a rather (to my mind) harsh penalty for a "deliberate" knock on in the 79th minute - a game, Saints deserved to win - but would have travelled back up the M5 thinking HTF did we lose that game? And Briz will be likely honest enough to know on Monday morning at training that they got more than they probably deserved, but will have a spring in their step, that would have been missing, had that penalty gone wide....
Yesterday - after a shonky start, we were on the attack and a terribly offside N'Castle 9 made Jimmy knock on....that probably was a penalty Wasps, kick to corner, drive and try.....but scrum against, went the length of field eventually and they scored. In that parallel universe, HT might have been Wasps ahead......which is a totally different game....
End of last season, we had confidence we got the breaks - and confidence breeds success.
That said - we did then facilitate N'Castle having an easy ride by allowing that run in - which basically destroyed any chances - and we started more and more to look like a team that had been introduced in the changing room and discussed strategy in the tunnel......we were looking like 15 individuals, not a team, too often.
Getting the stars back will help matters - panicking will not help - it's these times where senior players need to stand up and the coaching team needs to take stock and look to how they will get to the next league game with a fit 23.....
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Was Jimmy injured when he first came on the field or did it happen when he kicked that penalty?? No excuses but the team was beset by constant injuries finishing up with Umaga seeingly soldiering on with a broken cheek bone (or similiar) and Levi barely able to use his left eye. I like YY but have always had reservations about his captaincy - it never seems to go well. 2 young players would appear to have been messed up by EJ. I am now going to the Libraary with a bottle of brandy and a loaded pistol.
With Miss Scarlet?
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The difference between post lockdown last season and this season is preparation.
Previously we had a full, fit squad. The games came thick and fast so they had short, focused sessions where everyone knew what they were doing and confidence to do it under pressure thereby upping the intensity in games.
Now we have disrupted sessions with people injured or away and coming back in with no training time because we don't have enough cover.
Jason Ryles, the England skills coach, is so right about passing making a difference. Players need to hone their skills by practicing together so they execute precisely under pressure. We have not had that time so everything appears forced, laboured and inaccurate. When we do get better preparation time that will return and confidence will grow from that.
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Pressure. They've done it once, and now the expectation is that they should do it again.
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The difference between post lockdown last season and this season is preparation.
Previously we had a full, fit squad. The games came thick and fast so they had short, focused sessions where everyone knew what they were doing and confidence to do it under pressure thereby upping the intensity in games.
Now we have disrupted sessions with people injured or away and coming back in with no training time because we don't have enough cover.
Jason Ryles, the England skills coach, is so right about passing making a difference. Players need to hone their skills by practicing together so they execute precisely under pressure. We have not had that time so everything appears forced, laboured and inaccurate. When we do get better preparation time that will return and confidence will grow from that.
This is a good shout. I'd say that not having a break and player fatigue plays into this too.
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The difference between post lockdown last season and this season is preparation.
Previously we had a full, fit squad. The games came thick and fast so they had short, focused sessions where everyone knew what they were doing and confidence to do it under pressure thereby upping the intensity in games.
Now we have disrupted sessions with people injured or away and coming back in with no training time because we don't have enough cover.
Jason Ryles, the England skills coach, is so right about passing making a difference. Players need to hone their skills by practicing together so they execute precisely under pressure. We have not had that time so everything appears forced, laboured and inaccurate. When we do get better preparation time that will return and confidence will grow from that.
You've just described the premiership..not Wasps
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The difference between post lockdown last season and this season is preparation.
Previously we had a full, fit squad. The games came thick and fast so they had short, focused sessions where everyone knew what they were doing and confidence to do it under pressure thereby upping the intensity in games.
Now we have disrupted sessions with people injured or away and coming back in with no training time because we don't have enough cover.
Jason Ryles, the England skills coach, is so right about passing making a difference. Players need to hone their skills by practicing together so they execute precisely under pressure. We have not had that time so everything appears forced, laboured and inaccurate. When we do get better preparation time that will return and confidence will grow from that.
You've just described the premiership..not Wasps
Disagree there. Bath is in the same boat and they struggled prior to this weekend. The only teams that have been impressive are Newcastle and Exeter. Coincidence they've had the least squad disruption?
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If you set the individual errors aside the biggest difference is that we've been unable to create pressure at the breakdown. It's obvious why with JW, BS, JL and WR out main contributors there. That's where we've made sides pay and swung momentum our way. Our second row options can't make those dominant hits. Young used to be possibly the best turnover exponent in the Prem but it seems far less part of his game now. Without the breakdown pressure our defence is getting stretched and at a basic level we're just seeing less of the ball. It's fixed by personnel.
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Is it called "heads up rugby" when it works and "a side of individuals" when it doesn't?
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The difference between post lockdown last season and this season is preparation.
Previously we had a full, fit squad. The games came thick and fast so they had short, focused sessions where everyone knew what they were doing and confidence to do it under pressure thereby upping the intensity in games.
Now we have disrupted sessions with people injured or away and coming back in with no training time because we don't have enough cover.
Jason Ryles, the England skills coach, is so right about passing making a difference. Players need to hone their skills by practicing together so they execute precisely under pressure. We have not had that time so everything appears forced, laboured and inaccurate. When we do get better preparation time that will return and confidence will grow from that.
You've just described the premiership..not Wasps
Disagree there. Bath is in the same boat and they struggled prior to this weekend. The only teams that have been impressive are Newcastle and Exeter. Coincidence they've had the least squad disruption?
You referring to 5 try yesterday Bath? Who lost away at Exeter Bath? The Bath that got a LBP at home to Falcons..doesn't sound like the same boat to me.
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Confidence and just luck play a big part in getting results. Look at the Saints, Briz game, decided on a rather (to my mind) harsh penalty for a "deliberate" knock on in the 79th minute - a game, Saints deserved to win - but would have travelled back up the M5 thinking HTF did we lose that game? And Briz will be likely honest enough to know on Monday morning at training that they got more than they probably deserved, but will have a spring in their step, that would have been missing, had that penalty gone wide....
Yesterday - after a shonky start, we were on the attack and a terribly offside N'Castle 9 made Jimmy knock on....that probably was a penalty Wasps, kick to corner, drive and try.....but scrum against, went the length of field eventually and they scored. In that parallel universe, HT might have been Wasps ahead......which is a totally different game....
End of last season, we had confidence we got the breaks - and confidence breeds success.
That said - we did then facilitate N'Castle having an easy ride by allowing that run in - which basically destroyed any chances - and we started more and more to look like a team that had been introduced in the changing room and discussed strategy in the tunnel......we were looking like 15 individuals, not a team, too often.
Getting the stars back will help matters - panicking will not help - it's these times where senior players need to stand up and the coaching team needs to take stock and look to how they will get to the next league game with a fit 23.....
We watched different games Mike. It was a penalty all day long, every week. Saints didnt score a point for 66min and Bristol's 5th choice 10 left 8 easy points on the field. How Saints 'deserved' to win I have no idea.
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Hymoneptera you can't have it both ways. Other teams are excused any underperformance due to their 10 being 5th choice or it being their B team. If that's ok it has to apply for us as well - decimated by injury and internationals. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Confidence and just luck play a big part in getting results. Look at the Saints, Briz game, decided on a rather (to my mind) harsh penalty for a "deliberate" knock on in the 79th minute - a game, Saints deserved to win - but would have travelled back up the M5 thinking HTF did we lose that game? And Briz will be likely honest enough to know on Monday morning at training that they got more than they probably deserved, but will have a spring in their step, that would have been missing, had that penalty gone wide....
Yesterday - after a shonky start, we were on the attack and a terribly offside N'Castle 9 made Jimmy knock on....that probably was a penalty Wasps, kick to corner, drive and try.....but scrum against, went the length of field eventually and they scored. In that parallel universe, HT might have been Wasps ahead......which is a totally different game....
End of last season, we had confidence we got the breaks - and confidence breeds success.
That said - we did then facilitate N'Castle having an easy ride by allowing that run in - which basically destroyed any chances - and we started more and more to look like a team that had been introduced in the changing room and discussed strategy in the tunnel......we were looking like 15 individuals, not a team, too often.
Getting the stars back will help matters - panicking will not help - it's these times where senior players need to stand up and the coaching team needs to take stock and look to how they will get to the next league game with a fit 23.....
We watched different games Mike. It was a penalty all day long, every week. Saints didnt score a point for 66min and Bristol's 5th choice 10 left 8 easy points on the field. How Saints 'deserved' to win I have no idea.
Well - I thought it harsh - but that's the fun isn't it! They deserved to win as much as any team that got into a decent lead by playing decently, even when lacking form, players and confidence. In the RWC 2003, England didn't score a point for 52 minutes in normal time, yet I think they deserved to win.
None the less - the general point remains - it's small margins that can make a large difference. Danny winning that last test in SA probably saved Eddie's job.....and never featured again.....The ref failed to play offside against NCastle and could have cost us the game. Small margins.
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Hymoneptera you can't have it both ways. Other teams are excused any underperformance due to their 10 being 5th choice or it being their B team. If that's ok it has to apply for us as well - decimated by injury and internationals. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Your seemingly confused Shugs, Bristol won, so no excuses required, Saints lost.
Read the thread again, its about Saints deserving to win a game they lost.
So i'll stick with my view thanks
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Confidence and just luck play a big part in getting results. Look at the Saints, Briz game, decided on a rather (to my mind) harsh penalty for a "deliberate" knock on in the 79th minute - a game, Saints deserved to win - but would have travelled back up the M5 thinking HTF did we lose that game? And Briz will be likely honest enough to know on Monday morning at training that they got more than they probably deserved, but will have a spring in their step, that would have been missing, had that penalty gone wide....
Yesterday - after a shonky start, we were on the attack and a terribly offside N'Castle 9 made Jimmy knock on....that probably was a penalty Wasps, kick to corner, drive and try.....but scrum against, went the length of field eventually and they scored. In that parallel universe, HT might have been Wasps ahead......which is a totally different game....
End of last season, we had confidence we got the breaks - and confidence breeds success.
That said - we did then facilitate N'Castle having an easy ride by allowing that run in - which basically destroyed any chances - and we started more and more to look like a team that had been introduced in the changing room and discussed strategy in the tunnel......we were looking like 15 individuals, not a team, too often.
Getting the stars back will help matters - panicking will not help - it's these times where senior players need to stand up and the coaching team needs to take stock and look to how they will get to the next league game with a fit 23.....
We watched different games Mike. It was a penalty all day long, every week. Saints didnt score a point for 66min and Bristol's 5th choice 10 left 8 easy points on the field. How Saints 'deserved' to win I have no idea.
Well - I thought it harsh - but that's the fun isn't it! They deserved to win as much as any team that got into a decent lead by playing decently, even when lacking form, players and confidence. In the RWC 2003, England didn't score a point for 52 minutes in normal time, yet I think they deserved to win.
None the less - the general point remains - it's small margins that can make a large difference. Danny winning that last test in SA probably saved Eddie's job.....and never featured again.....The ref failed to play offside against NCastle and could have cost us the game. Small margins.
Sure,, each to there own that's fine.
Fine margins may be, and as you say might have been a win...but if we are shipping 80 point every three matches and hoping to triumphantly scrape by an average team by three then it'll be a long season.
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Hymoneptera you can't have it both ways. Other teams are excused any underperformance due to their 10 being 5th choice or it being their B team. If that's ok it has to apply for us as well - decimated by injury and internationals. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Your seemingly confused Shugs, Bristol won, so no excuses required, Saints lost.
Read the thread again, its about Saints deserving to win a game they lost.
So i'll stick with my view thanks
:) Nice try! So if I can sum up whoever we beat there are huge mitigating circumstances for them that don't apply to us when we lose. The debate wasn't about Saints v Bristol - it's about what's changed for us. That's fairly and squarely personnel. Hey-ho the enjoyment in this forum is healthy debate - you feel we're in a worse place than I do - you may well be right. If we don't pick up when we get key players back I'll start to worry.
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I think we're struggling at the moment
But at the same time, I think a number of other clubs were struggling after the restart which made us look better
So, as is usually the case, we're somewhere in the middle.
Probably not as bad as some make out, probably not as good as some hope we'd be
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Hymoneptera you can't have it both ways. Other teams are excused any underperformance due to their 10 being 5th choice or it being their B team. If that's ok it has to apply for us as well - decimated by injury and internationals. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Your seemingly confused Shugs, Bristol won, so no excuses required, Saints lost.
Read the thread again, its about Saints deserving to win a game they lost.
So i'll stick with my view thanks
:) Nice try! So if I can sum up whoever we beat there are huge mitigating circumstances for them that don't apply to us when we lose. The debate wasn't about Saints v Bristol - it's about what's changed for us. That's fairly and squarely personnel. Hey-ho the enjoyment in this forum is healthy debate - you feel we're in a worse place than I do - you may well be right. If we don't pick up when we get key players back I'll start to worry.
No Shrugs, the title thread was about what's changed for us, my and Mikes discussion was solely about the Bris Saints result. You're right, I am concerned, but less about the positions that will be improved and more about the performance of front line players that wont be replaced. Umaga played as badly as i've seen him for example..
Anyway, if there was no debate the board would a boring place..
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Yes, on that I quite agree. With Umaga I think EJ's interference can't help. Two others I'd throw in at the minute are Gopperth and Young. Both have played a lot of games which may be the extent of it. Problem is, where they play we don't have a lot of scope for rotation.
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It will be interesting to see how we go at RP. With the engine room back and the Jackal plus Dobby, I fancy that we will see a very different performance from Wasps, than what we have seen in the first 3 weeks of the season.
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It will be interesting to see how we go at RP. With the engine room back and the Jackal plus Dobby, I fancy that we will see a very different performance from Wasps, than what we have seen in the first 3 weeks of the season.
Hopefully but depends on who comes out of Saturday injured. Currently holding breathe on any updates.
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Anyway, if there was no debate the board would a boring place..
Absolutely. I noticed with some dismay at the weekend that the Renegade Wasps Facebook page has now become one of those places where, if you criticiser the referee, you know nothing about the laws of the game or the ethos of rugby, and if you criticise the team, you're no longer a true fan........... ::)
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While nobody can claim we played well and a few players had stinkers i still look at the fact we left at least 14 points out on the pitch, will Gopperth miss that many kicks again? you'd think not. we failed to score two tries through basic handling errors, you'd like to think we would usually score those. we had a very bad day against a team brimming with confidence and due to our own errors never put them under any pressure on the score board. had we scored some of those early points who knows what would have happened, i'm not saying we would have won but it could have been a very different game. with our internationals returning you would think the starting 15 will look very different, and by the new year we should start to see some players return. big worries for me what happens in Feb when they all disappear again.
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Anyway, if there was no debate the board would a boring place..
Absolutely. I noticed with some dismay at the weekend that the Renegade Wasps Facebook page has now become one of those places where, if you criticiser the referee, you know nothing about the laws of the game or the ethos of rugby, and if you criticise the team, you're no longer a true fan........... ::)
I gave up Facebook a couple of years ago and haven't regretted it once.
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It will be interesting to see how we go at RP. With the engine room back and the Jackal plus Dobby, I fancy that we will see a very different performance from Wasps, than what we have seen in the first 3 weeks of the season.
Hopefully but depends on who comes out of Saturday injured. Currently holding breathe on any updates.
Likewise on the injuries. Umaga’s swollen face was quite the sight but I’m hoping it isn’t too serious (like a broken cheekbone) otherwise he wouldn’t of continued to play...
I assume T Willis will be unavailable this week and maybe next due to his self isolation.
Hope Gaskell passes the HIA protocols. That clash with Douglas was tough to watch.
Vailanu (mid-December), Watson, Simonds & Mills (all late December) should become available soon but I haven’t seen anything on the extent of Curran’s injury and recovery timeline.
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I assume T Willis will be unavailable this week and maybe next due to his self isolation.
Did i miss something? I thought (maybe just assumed) that his withdrawal was due to having not fully recovered from the injury he picked up last week. Has he or someone close to him tested positive and therefore having to isolate?
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Yes.
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I assume T Willis will be unavailable this week and maybe next due to his self isolation.
Did i miss something? I thought (maybe just assumed) that his withdrawal was due to having not fully recovered from the injury he picked up last week. Has he or someone close to him tested positive and therefore having to isolate?
Yes he came into contact with someone who tested positive and was withdrawn the morning of the Falcons game.
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Anyway, if there was no debate the board would a boring place..
Absolutely. I noticed with some dismay at the weekend that the Renegade Wasps Facebook page has now become one of those places where, if you criticiser the referee, you know nothing about the laws of the game or the ethos of rugby, and if you criticise the team, you're no longer a true fan........... ::)
I gave up Facebook a couple of years ago and haven't regretted it once.
I'm in some very good ex forces groups, I would miss them enormously. Also, all of my family being 360 miles away, makes it a very easy way to keep in touch.
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Anyway, if there was no debate the board would a boring place..
Absolutely. I noticed with some dismay at the weekend that the Renegade Wasps Facebook page has now become one of those places where, if you criticiser the referee, you know nothing about the laws of the game or the ethos of rugby, and if you criticise the team, you're no longer a true fan........... ::)
Does not sound very renegade...quite the opposite, really.