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31
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Rugby is a form of child abuse, study says
« on: February 09, 2024, 08:11:50 PM »
Correlation and causation.
The safety 'experts' (mathematical morons) get these two mixed up all the time. Too much for their two brain cells to cope with.
Lots of accidents where the estimated speed was 'high' == high speed causes accidents.
Except, it doesn't. It is a correlation only. Sorry, I did statistics to final year at University, got a first in that subject.
If you speak to any police officer over a quiet can of beer (rather than officially), you will be told that over 50% of serious multiple vehicle accidents are caused by bad driver decisions. By far and away top of that list is distracted driving, followed by inattentive driving. Then driving under the influence of drink and/or drugs. Not speed. Speed rarely causes an accident. Speed only comes in to the damage caused, to people, animals, vehicles and property. The faster you go, the more the damage.
Rather like saying guns cause shootings. They don't. The human pulling the trigger does.
20mph speed limits (and the 50mph ones) are merely a nanny state trying to control your lives.
Take schooling, that WWW (and I) both have experience of.
A huge percentage of prison inmates cannot adequately read or write (functionally illiterate). That means they cannot pass a driving test, and makes them virtually unemployable, which leads to them turning to a life of crime to make ends meet (at first anyway).
So, does their illiteracy cause their criminal behaviour? No, it is a consequence.
Take it a step further. A massively high percentage (over 75%) of prisoners were excluded for long periods from school when young, most were permanently excluded from at least two schools.
Experts said that exclusion caused them to become criminals. So, now schools can't exclude pupils. Result, teachers leave the profession due to assaults/burnout and having no means to 'control' unruly pupils. So even more pupils turn to crime. Quality decision making. Not.
The proper response would have been to question why we think sitting 30-40 pupils in a room and lecturing them from the front (unzipping their heads and pouring in knowledge) could possible work for 100% of human children? The reason we do it? Because it is the cheapest way.
Correlation and causation? Cause or consequence? Statistics are extremely dangerous when used to make decisions about how to rule a society.
20mph speed limits are there because of this brain dead thinking process by politicians. Just as the mad rush to EVs is bonkers. Cold, calm debate is lost on the morons we elect to lead us (well, I don't, I work on the principle that to vote for any of them is to encourage them to make free with our lives, and I won't do that).
The safety 'experts' (mathematical morons) get these two mixed up all the time. Too much for their two brain cells to cope with.
Lots of accidents where the estimated speed was 'high' == high speed causes accidents.
Except, it doesn't. It is a correlation only. Sorry, I did statistics to final year at University, got a first in that subject.
If you speak to any police officer over a quiet can of beer (rather than officially), you will be told that over 50% of serious multiple vehicle accidents are caused by bad driver decisions. By far and away top of that list is distracted driving, followed by inattentive driving. Then driving under the influence of drink and/or drugs. Not speed. Speed rarely causes an accident. Speed only comes in to the damage caused, to people, animals, vehicles and property. The faster you go, the more the damage.
Rather like saying guns cause shootings. They don't. The human pulling the trigger does.
20mph speed limits (and the 50mph ones) are merely a nanny state trying to control your lives.
Take schooling, that WWW (and I) both have experience of.
A huge percentage of prison inmates cannot adequately read or write (functionally illiterate). That means they cannot pass a driving test, and makes them virtually unemployable, which leads to them turning to a life of crime to make ends meet (at first anyway).
So, does their illiteracy cause their criminal behaviour? No, it is a consequence.
Take it a step further. A massively high percentage (over 75%) of prisoners were excluded for long periods from school when young, most were permanently excluded from at least two schools.
Experts said that exclusion caused them to become criminals. So, now schools can't exclude pupils. Result, teachers leave the profession due to assaults/burnout and having no means to 'control' unruly pupils. So even more pupils turn to crime. Quality decision making. Not.
The proper response would have been to question why we think sitting 30-40 pupils in a room and lecturing them from the front (unzipping their heads and pouring in knowledge) could possible work for 100% of human children? The reason we do it? Because it is the cheapest way.
Correlation and causation? Cause or consequence? Statistics are extremely dangerous when used to make decisions about how to rule a society.
20mph speed limits are there because of this brain dead thinking process by politicians. Just as the mad rush to EVs is bonkers. Cold, calm debate is lost on the morons we elect to lead us (well, I don't, I work on the principle that to vote for any of them is to encourage them to make free with our lives, and I won't do that).
32
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Rugby is a form of child abuse, study says
« on: February 09, 2024, 07:17:26 AM »How are motor bikers managing, WWW? We're waiting for them to arrive over the border from Abergavenny in massed hordes. All doing 80 mph and going vvvvrrrrmmmmm. Surely a motor bike going at 20 mph is going to fall over??
Somewhere just under 10mph is the limit for balance on a motorbike, but then only with clutch control, keeping the revs up. 20mph is OK for very short distances, but quite uncomfortable.
As a biker, who lives only 75 miles from the passport booth on the A44, I can give Wales a miss for now. 20mph is not fun.
33
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Saudis may invest in rugby clubs
« on: February 01, 2024, 06:18:49 PM »The most obvious case of sports washing imaginable.
With football you could at least argue there was genuine interest in the sport in Saudi. Rugby? Cone on now
Given that quite a lot of Saudi princes are educated in our fair isles, it is a fair bet that most will have more than a passing acquaintance with rugby.
34
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Ex Wasps signing for new clubs
« on: January 28, 2024, 04:55:41 PM »Charlie Atkinson starts for Glaws this weekend at 10
Try on debut
I see a few yellow cards being handed out like party poppers. Sale making a second half comeback.
35
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Inews article - where did they all end up
« on: January 19, 2024, 07:52:56 PM »
'From a dream to a nightmare': I tracked down the Wasps stars who lost it all
Some players signed for different clubs while others were forced to change their careers entirely. This is their story.
At 12.40pm on Monday 17 October, 2022, more than 60 players at Wasps - senior and academy - were made redundant.
They had been led to believe there was hope of a rescue for the financially-stricken club but, with one shock statement from the administrators at the training ground, they were out of a job.
This is the story of what happened to those players, scattered throughout the UK or around the world or in some cases giving up playing, and the consequences when rugby's numbers don't add up.
A major problem for finding another club was the market was flooded, with Worcester Warriors having just gone bust too, and London Irish and Jersey to follow. Looking to France or Japan was quoted often in the media, but even for those with international caps, there were not many of those places to go round. The season in England was under way and teams' budgets were tight or already spent.
The Wasps players fit broadly into three categories. The well-known names who were snapped up, but still required to relocate: the likes of Jack and Tom Willis, Joe Launchbury, Dan Robson, John Ryan, Elliott Stooke, Jacob Umaga, Tom West and Josh Bassett, while Nizaam Carr, Vincent Koch, Francois Hougaard, Matteo Minozzi and Brad Shields returned to their home countries, either immediately or after playing for another club.
There was a younger cohort, some of them England U20 internationals, who were already on everyone?s radar and eagerly whipped away by Wasps' peers.
Alfie Barbeary went to Bath, Alfie Bell, Greg Fisilau and Immanuel Feyi-Waboso to Exeter Chiefs, Kofi Cripps to Bristol Bears, Asher Opoku-Fordjour and Rekeiti Ma'asi-White to Sale Sharks, Charlie Atkinson to Leicester Tigers then Gloucester.
Olly Hartley joined Saracens, Will Porter went to Bristol then Harlequins, Sam Spink to Western Force (where he was the 2023 player of the year), Sam Wolstenholme to Leicester then Bristol.
And lastly the group you might describe as the inbetweeners: the squeezed middle of the non-internationals in their late twenties and early thirties, and the less-fancied youngsters on the fringe of the first team or in the academy.
Just two years after Wasps were contesting the Premiership final at Twickenham, they were dreaming of further success in the black and gold of a club who had won the league six times, and the European Cup twice, when it all fell apart.
In October 2022, lock forward Theo Vukasinovic had just signed a three-year contract with Wasps. He knew what he would be doing, and for how much money, until 2025. Since joining in 2019, he made 15 first-team appearances for Wasps, including the Premiership Cup, as well as enduring an 11-month Achilles tendon injury.
"There was a state of shock of not quite realising what had happened," Vukasinovic, now 27, tells i.
"I remember I was living with Sam Wolstenholme at the time. We'd had the meeting with the administrators, then it was a whirlwind of calling agents and it must have been two days later, me and Sam had got home, and we had these two reclining armchairs in the sitting room, and we both sat back and we were like, 'well, what do we do now? What do we do for the rest of the day? What are we doing tomorrow?' A rugby squad is a kind of family ? you see your teammates getting married, have babies, have break-ups ? then you leave that so suddenly, it is just crazy.
"There's quite a sad anecdote. There was a good group who all lived 10 minutes from each other in Leamington Spa, guys of the same age and some older ones ? Ben Harris, Benny Morris, Tom Cruse ? and we all got on. After we got made redundant we were going to training at Old Leamingtonians, to do a few running sessions, and play some headers and volleys.
"And the group got smaller and smaller, because guys would sign for different clubs and move away. I signed with Doncaster on a Monday, drove up and did a few flat viewings on the Tuesday, drove back and then moved up on the Wednesday. I emptied my Leamington flat within 48 hours of signing for Doncaster and I was gone."
There is plenty of similar testimony of a sense of loss. Tom West told the BBC: "I'd been with Wasps for 11 years, and to see it go up in smoke was a nightmare. I struggled to keep motivation for a few weeks, doing a bit of gym here and there, but it was long days on the sofas staring at my phone, waiting for a call."
Nizaam Carr wrote: "Just like that, overnight, I went from living my dream to a nightmare. The problem was that it happened at the start of the season and all the other English Premiership clubs had spent their budgets. As the main breadwinner in the family, you immediately start asking questions about how you?re going to provide for your family."
Redundancy brought Vukasinovic - who has an English mother and a dad with Serbian and Caribbean heritage - 17 days' pay for that October plus a statutory one week's money for each of his four years at the club. He joined Doncaster for a few weeks at the end of the 2022-23 season, then dislocated a shoulder. Off his own bat, he worked in coaching at his old school, Reed's in Cobham, and a paid internship, a few days a week at a property company.
This season he trained briefly with Barnes, then played as a guest for Northampton Saints against the Barbarians and in the Premiership Cup. Each time, he moved and rented a flat and adjusted. Lately, he has been living back with his mum in her Richmond flat, and training in a gym on mates' rates at London Welsh.
He and others are due to each receive an additional sum in the low thousands of pounds: "protective awards" of top-up compensation pursued by the Rugby Players Association (RPA) in an employment tribunal for a lack of consultation prior to being made redundant.
"For the guys like me in their twenties, they were getting paid a good wage, they looked like adults on the pitch, they're kind of in an adult world," Vukasinovic says.
"But that doesn?t mean you are prepared. It's a difficult loss of community and sense of belonging, when you feel quite nomadic and you're wandering the streets of a new town every six months, trying to figure out where the Boots is, and the best supermarket to go to."
Later this month, Vukasinovic will fly to the US to join the Rugby FC Los Angeles club in Major League Rugby. Ironically, perhaps, they are a phoenix outfit relocated from Atlanta.
He has had Zoom calls to meet his new teammates ? Kiwis, Aussies, English, Irish, Americans and Canadians ? and will play out of the Dignity Healthy Stadium used by LA Galaxy, and live in Redondo near the beach in South LA.
It's a year's deal, although the regular season finishes at the end of June, and he has James Stokes, who lost his job at London Irish and then played for Rosslyn Park, as a fellow traveller.
"I'm open to seeing a lot of America, learning about American training, and playing against different people, but I really don't know what to expect," Vukasinovic says.
Ben Morris, 32, is combining part-time rugby for Moseley with work as a financial advisor. Ryan Mills is a fine centre who trained with England under Eddie Jones.
The 31-year-old found working in recruitment in Exeter last year was not for him, according to a poignant post on the careers website, LinkedIn, where he also describes his ability to repeatedly bounce back and compete at a high level, after 22 operations: "For 14 years ? I have been challenged on a daily basis, analysed down to the smallest detail, and everything I have done or achieved [or failed in on multiple occasions] reviewed for how it could be done even better.
"Despite being physically and mentally in a great place to continue my rugby career, due to the current struggles in the sport, I am actively exploring how to leverage my skillset to pave a path towards future success."
This positive theme of skills picked up by playing pro rugby is echoed by Ben Harris. Now 34, the loosehead prop with 80-plus Premiership appearances was rehabbing a severe hamstring injury when Wasps went under. He remembers the Premiership final loss to Exeter at Twickenham in 2020 as a career highlight, albeit "with about three people there, because of Covid".
As Wasps' injury cover had ceased, Harris was grateful to the RPA for stepping in with cash for procedures, injections, surgery. He still hopes to play again, but hope doesn't pay the bills, and he was relieved to fall back on his electrician's qualification from his teens. Harris sub-contracts to a firm in the Midlands, working on caravans to new-build houses to factories, while picking up "a few quid" coaching at Old Leamingtonians.
"At the end of the day, rugby in this country is a business that doesn't make money," Harris tells i.
"I lost my job, potentially lost my career, depending on my next block of rehab. Derek [Richardson, the former owner of Wasps] could have reached out, but I have never seen or heard from him again.
"But you can't sit around and cry about it, or you'll just find yourself in a downward spiral and God knows what sort of hole you'd find yourself in. Rather than thinking I could be on a nice big contract and playing rugby in front of x amount of people, you have to see it as adversity making you better.
"You've met some quality people along the way, and a lot of businesses love hiring ex-sportsmen, because of the way they hold themselves to a certain standard. A lot of rugby players don't realise how many skills they've picked up; soft skills ? the way they communicate.
"It's awful seeing staff members you're really fond of - cleaners, chefs, team managers, academy staff, office people, team-mates - all these people in floods of tears because they have seen their jobs just gone. Some were academy boys just starting professional careers. It's probably worse for them having to drop down, whether it be the Championship or lower than that, and try and forge their way back through it."
A good place to assess that arrested development is the Wasps line-up for the two Premiership Cup matches against Newcastle and Leicester in late September 2022.
Back-rower James Tunney, now 22, was in the final year of a sports science degree at Loughborough University. He tells i that, after a short spell at Ampthill, he chose to cease playing to explore other opportunities.
Scrum-half Harry Craven had been at Wasps for four months after leaving Durham University. He went to Australia for a year, working in business development for an old Wasps sponsor, and playing for Eastern Suburbs. He has now returned to his hometown club Chester in National 2 West.
"It's where I started my rugby journey at four years old," he tells i. "I retain ambitions to play part-time in the Championship next season while pursuing a full-time career in business."
Ampthill in the second division was a kind of clearing ground for Wasps players, due to academy links. Tom Bacon, Zac Nearchou and Ollie Dawkins are still at the Bedfordshire club; Bacon is teaching as a day job. Robin Hardwick and Billy Kucera were others who passed through.
Paul Turner, Ampthill's head coach, tells i: "We had Alfie Bell, Greg Fisilau and Manny Feyi-Waboso on loan from Wasps, they trained with us.
"When it went under, all those three left and went to Exeter. And Reketi Ma'asi-White went to Sale; Kofi Cripps is at Bristol now. The remaining boys, they were just kids, really.
"Over the next month or two which must have been quite horrendous for them, their agents were trying to find clubs, and we said we'll pay you well for part-time, and it's an opportunity to keep on playing and settle yourself."
Vukasinovic sums up: "There is still a big social Wasps WhatsApp group. But it is quite tame at the moment, apart from at Christmas, or when it's someone's birthday, it'll pipe up and someone will be called out and told to down a pint.
"Am I angry or frustrated? It goes through ebbs and flows. You go through an acceptance of it, you go through denial, you go through a grief cycle.
"We were supposed to play Exeter the weekend immediately after it all ended and I was due to make what would have been my first ever start in the Premiership. I'd got back from a hamstring injury, worked hard in pre-season, played well in the Premiership Cup ? and then it all went under."
Where are they now?
1) TOP LEVEL
FORWARDS
Alfie Bell to Exeter Chiefs
Alfie Barbeary to Bath
Tim Cardall to Melbourne Rebels (Aus) then Newcastle Falcons
Nizaam Carr to Bulls (SA)
Tom Cruse to Edinburgh (Sco) then Northampton Saints
Kofi Cripps to Bristol Bears
Greg Fisilau to Exeter Chiefs
Dan Frost to Exeter Chiefs
Robin Hislop to Saracens then Edinburgh (Sco)
Vincent Koch to Stade Francais (Fra) then Sharks (SA)
Joe Launchbury to Toyota Verblitz (Jap) then Harlequins
Reuben Logan to Northampton Saints academy
Rodrigo Martinez to Los Pampas (Arg) then Dragons (Wal)
Archie McArthur to Gloucester academy
Kiran McDonald to Munster (Ire) then Newcastle Falcons
Elliot Millar-Mills to Bath then Edinburgh then Northampton Saints
Gabriel Oghre to Leicester Tigers then Bordeaux (Fra) then Bristol Bears
Asher Opoku-Fordjour to Sale Sharks
John Ryan to Munster (Ire) then Chiefs (NZ)
Brad Shields to Perpignan (Fra) to Wellington and Hurricanes (NZ)
Elliot Stooke to Bristol Bears then Montpellier (Fra) then Bath
Corbin Thunder to Newcastle Falcons
Michael van Vuuren to Newcastle Falcons
Tom West to Ealing Trailfinders then Leicester Tigers then Saracens
Jack Willis to Toulouse (Fra)
Tom Willis to Bordeaux (Fra) then Saracens.
BACKS
Charlie Atkinson to Leicester Tigers then Gloucester
Josh Bassett to Harlequins then Leicester Tigers
Ali Crossdale to Perpignan (Fra)
Manny Feyi-Waboso to Exeter Chiefs
Will Glister to Northampton Saints academy
Olly Hartley to Saracens
Will Haydon-Wood to Massy Essonne (Fra) then Exeter Chiefs
Francois Hougaard to Saracens then Sharks (SA)
Zach Kibirige to Western Force (Aus) then Biarritz (Fra)
Rekeiti Maasi-White to Sale Sharks
Matteo Minozzi to Benetton Treviso (Ita)
Burger Odendaal to Toshiba Brave Lupus Tokyo (Jap) then Northampton Saints
Paolo Odogwu to Stade Francais (Fra) then Benetton Treviso (Ita)
Will Porter to Bristol Bears then Harlequins
Dan Robson to Pau (Fra)
Sam Spink to Western Force (Aus)
Jacob Umaga to Benetton Treviso (Ita)
Sam Wolstenholme to Leicester Tigers then Bristol Bears.
2) ONE LEVEL DOWN OR OTHER
FORWARDS
Biyi Alo to Racing 92 (Fra) then Ealing Trailfinders
Kieran Curran to Bedford Blues
Cam Dodson to Aurillac (Fra)
Robin Hardwick to Ampthill then Chinnor
Ben Morris to Birmingham Moseley
Zac Nearchou to Ampthill
Mario Pichardie to Loughborough University
Theo Vukasinovic to Doncaster Knights then Northampton Saints then Rugby FC Los Angeles
BACKS
Tom Bacon to Ampthill
Harry Craven to Eastern Suburbs (Aus) then Chester
Ollie Dawkins to Ampthill
Billy Kucera to Ampthill then Exeter University
Luke Mehson to London Scottish
Epi Rokodrava to Ealing Trailfinders academy
Will Simonds to Chinnor.
3) NOT PLAYING AT TIME OF WRITING
FORWARDS
Ben Harris
James Tunney (initially to Ampthill)
BACKS
Ryan Mills (initially to Sale Sharks).
Some players signed for different clubs while others were forced to change their careers entirely. This is their story.
At 12.40pm on Monday 17 October, 2022, more than 60 players at Wasps - senior and academy - were made redundant.
They had been led to believe there was hope of a rescue for the financially-stricken club but, with one shock statement from the administrators at the training ground, they were out of a job.
This is the story of what happened to those players, scattered throughout the UK or around the world or in some cases giving up playing, and the consequences when rugby's numbers don't add up.
A major problem for finding another club was the market was flooded, with Worcester Warriors having just gone bust too, and London Irish and Jersey to follow. Looking to France or Japan was quoted often in the media, but even for those with international caps, there were not many of those places to go round. The season in England was under way and teams' budgets were tight or already spent.
The Wasps players fit broadly into three categories. The well-known names who were snapped up, but still required to relocate: the likes of Jack and Tom Willis, Joe Launchbury, Dan Robson, John Ryan, Elliott Stooke, Jacob Umaga, Tom West and Josh Bassett, while Nizaam Carr, Vincent Koch, Francois Hougaard, Matteo Minozzi and Brad Shields returned to their home countries, either immediately or after playing for another club.
There was a younger cohort, some of them England U20 internationals, who were already on everyone?s radar and eagerly whipped away by Wasps' peers.
Alfie Barbeary went to Bath, Alfie Bell, Greg Fisilau and Immanuel Feyi-Waboso to Exeter Chiefs, Kofi Cripps to Bristol Bears, Asher Opoku-Fordjour and Rekeiti Ma'asi-White to Sale Sharks, Charlie Atkinson to Leicester Tigers then Gloucester.
Olly Hartley joined Saracens, Will Porter went to Bristol then Harlequins, Sam Spink to Western Force (where he was the 2023 player of the year), Sam Wolstenholme to Leicester then Bristol.
And lastly the group you might describe as the inbetweeners: the squeezed middle of the non-internationals in their late twenties and early thirties, and the less-fancied youngsters on the fringe of the first team or in the academy.
Just two years after Wasps were contesting the Premiership final at Twickenham, they were dreaming of further success in the black and gold of a club who had won the league six times, and the European Cup twice, when it all fell apart.
In October 2022, lock forward Theo Vukasinovic had just signed a three-year contract with Wasps. He knew what he would be doing, and for how much money, until 2025. Since joining in 2019, he made 15 first-team appearances for Wasps, including the Premiership Cup, as well as enduring an 11-month Achilles tendon injury.
"There was a state of shock of not quite realising what had happened," Vukasinovic, now 27, tells i.
"I remember I was living with Sam Wolstenholme at the time. We'd had the meeting with the administrators, then it was a whirlwind of calling agents and it must have been two days later, me and Sam had got home, and we had these two reclining armchairs in the sitting room, and we both sat back and we were like, 'well, what do we do now? What do we do for the rest of the day? What are we doing tomorrow?' A rugby squad is a kind of family ? you see your teammates getting married, have babies, have break-ups ? then you leave that so suddenly, it is just crazy.
"There's quite a sad anecdote. There was a good group who all lived 10 minutes from each other in Leamington Spa, guys of the same age and some older ones ? Ben Harris, Benny Morris, Tom Cruse ? and we all got on. After we got made redundant we were going to training at Old Leamingtonians, to do a few running sessions, and play some headers and volleys.
"And the group got smaller and smaller, because guys would sign for different clubs and move away. I signed with Doncaster on a Monday, drove up and did a few flat viewings on the Tuesday, drove back and then moved up on the Wednesday. I emptied my Leamington flat within 48 hours of signing for Doncaster and I was gone."
There is plenty of similar testimony of a sense of loss. Tom West told the BBC: "I'd been with Wasps for 11 years, and to see it go up in smoke was a nightmare. I struggled to keep motivation for a few weeks, doing a bit of gym here and there, but it was long days on the sofas staring at my phone, waiting for a call."
Nizaam Carr wrote: "Just like that, overnight, I went from living my dream to a nightmare. The problem was that it happened at the start of the season and all the other English Premiership clubs had spent their budgets. As the main breadwinner in the family, you immediately start asking questions about how you?re going to provide for your family."
Redundancy brought Vukasinovic - who has an English mother and a dad with Serbian and Caribbean heritage - 17 days' pay for that October plus a statutory one week's money for each of his four years at the club. He joined Doncaster for a few weeks at the end of the 2022-23 season, then dislocated a shoulder. Off his own bat, he worked in coaching at his old school, Reed's in Cobham, and a paid internship, a few days a week at a property company.
This season he trained briefly with Barnes, then played as a guest for Northampton Saints against the Barbarians and in the Premiership Cup. Each time, he moved and rented a flat and adjusted. Lately, he has been living back with his mum in her Richmond flat, and training in a gym on mates' rates at London Welsh.
He and others are due to each receive an additional sum in the low thousands of pounds: "protective awards" of top-up compensation pursued by the Rugby Players Association (RPA) in an employment tribunal for a lack of consultation prior to being made redundant.
"For the guys like me in their twenties, they were getting paid a good wage, they looked like adults on the pitch, they're kind of in an adult world," Vukasinovic says.
"But that doesn?t mean you are prepared. It's a difficult loss of community and sense of belonging, when you feel quite nomadic and you're wandering the streets of a new town every six months, trying to figure out where the Boots is, and the best supermarket to go to."
Later this month, Vukasinovic will fly to the US to join the Rugby FC Los Angeles club in Major League Rugby. Ironically, perhaps, they are a phoenix outfit relocated from Atlanta.
He has had Zoom calls to meet his new teammates ? Kiwis, Aussies, English, Irish, Americans and Canadians ? and will play out of the Dignity Healthy Stadium used by LA Galaxy, and live in Redondo near the beach in South LA.
It's a year's deal, although the regular season finishes at the end of June, and he has James Stokes, who lost his job at London Irish and then played for Rosslyn Park, as a fellow traveller.
"I'm open to seeing a lot of America, learning about American training, and playing against different people, but I really don't know what to expect," Vukasinovic says.
Ben Morris, 32, is combining part-time rugby for Moseley with work as a financial advisor. Ryan Mills is a fine centre who trained with England under Eddie Jones.
The 31-year-old found working in recruitment in Exeter last year was not for him, according to a poignant post on the careers website, LinkedIn, where he also describes his ability to repeatedly bounce back and compete at a high level, after 22 operations: "For 14 years ? I have been challenged on a daily basis, analysed down to the smallest detail, and everything I have done or achieved [or failed in on multiple occasions] reviewed for how it could be done even better.
"Despite being physically and mentally in a great place to continue my rugby career, due to the current struggles in the sport, I am actively exploring how to leverage my skillset to pave a path towards future success."
This positive theme of skills picked up by playing pro rugby is echoed by Ben Harris. Now 34, the loosehead prop with 80-plus Premiership appearances was rehabbing a severe hamstring injury when Wasps went under. He remembers the Premiership final loss to Exeter at Twickenham in 2020 as a career highlight, albeit "with about three people there, because of Covid".
As Wasps' injury cover had ceased, Harris was grateful to the RPA for stepping in with cash for procedures, injections, surgery. He still hopes to play again, but hope doesn't pay the bills, and he was relieved to fall back on his electrician's qualification from his teens. Harris sub-contracts to a firm in the Midlands, working on caravans to new-build houses to factories, while picking up "a few quid" coaching at Old Leamingtonians.
"At the end of the day, rugby in this country is a business that doesn't make money," Harris tells i.
"I lost my job, potentially lost my career, depending on my next block of rehab. Derek [Richardson, the former owner of Wasps] could have reached out, but I have never seen or heard from him again.
"But you can't sit around and cry about it, or you'll just find yourself in a downward spiral and God knows what sort of hole you'd find yourself in. Rather than thinking I could be on a nice big contract and playing rugby in front of x amount of people, you have to see it as adversity making you better.
"You've met some quality people along the way, and a lot of businesses love hiring ex-sportsmen, because of the way they hold themselves to a certain standard. A lot of rugby players don't realise how many skills they've picked up; soft skills ? the way they communicate.
"It's awful seeing staff members you're really fond of - cleaners, chefs, team managers, academy staff, office people, team-mates - all these people in floods of tears because they have seen their jobs just gone. Some were academy boys just starting professional careers. It's probably worse for them having to drop down, whether it be the Championship or lower than that, and try and forge their way back through it."
A good place to assess that arrested development is the Wasps line-up for the two Premiership Cup matches against Newcastle and Leicester in late September 2022.
Back-rower James Tunney, now 22, was in the final year of a sports science degree at Loughborough University. He tells i that, after a short spell at Ampthill, he chose to cease playing to explore other opportunities.
Scrum-half Harry Craven had been at Wasps for four months after leaving Durham University. He went to Australia for a year, working in business development for an old Wasps sponsor, and playing for Eastern Suburbs. He has now returned to his hometown club Chester in National 2 West.
"It's where I started my rugby journey at four years old," he tells i. "I retain ambitions to play part-time in the Championship next season while pursuing a full-time career in business."
Ampthill in the second division was a kind of clearing ground for Wasps players, due to academy links. Tom Bacon, Zac Nearchou and Ollie Dawkins are still at the Bedfordshire club; Bacon is teaching as a day job. Robin Hardwick and Billy Kucera were others who passed through.
Paul Turner, Ampthill's head coach, tells i: "We had Alfie Bell, Greg Fisilau and Manny Feyi-Waboso on loan from Wasps, they trained with us.
"When it went under, all those three left and went to Exeter. And Reketi Ma'asi-White went to Sale; Kofi Cripps is at Bristol now. The remaining boys, they were just kids, really.
"Over the next month or two which must have been quite horrendous for them, their agents were trying to find clubs, and we said we'll pay you well for part-time, and it's an opportunity to keep on playing and settle yourself."
Vukasinovic sums up: "There is still a big social Wasps WhatsApp group. But it is quite tame at the moment, apart from at Christmas, or when it's someone's birthday, it'll pipe up and someone will be called out and told to down a pint.
"Am I angry or frustrated? It goes through ebbs and flows. You go through an acceptance of it, you go through denial, you go through a grief cycle.
"We were supposed to play Exeter the weekend immediately after it all ended and I was due to make what would have been my first ever start in the Premiership. I'd got back from a hamstring injury, worked hard in pre-season, played well in the Premiership Cup ? and then it all went under."
Where are they now?
1) TOP LEVEL
FORWARDS
Alfie Bell to Exeter Chiefs
Alfie Barbeary to Bath
Tim Cardall to Melbourne Rebels (Aus) then Newcastle Falcons
Nizaam Carr to Bulls (SA)
Tom Cruse to Edinburgh (Sco) then Northampton Saints
Kofi Cripps to Bristol Bears
Greg Fisilau to Exeter Chiefs
Dan Frost to Exeter Chiefs
Robin Hislop to Saracens then Edinburgh (Sco)
Vincent Koch to Stade Francais (Fra) then Sharks (SA)
Joe Launchbury to Toyota Verblitz (Jap) then Harlequins
Reuben Logan to Northampton Saints academy
Rodrigo Martinez to Los Pampas (Arg) then Dragons (Wal)
Archie McArthur to Gloucester academy
Kiran McDonald to Munster (Ire) then Newcastle Falcons
Elliot Millar-Mills to Bath then Edinburgh then Northampton Saints
Gabriel Oghre to Leicester Tigers then Bordeaux (Fra) then Bristol Bears
Asher Opoku-Fordjour to Sale Sharks
John Ryan to Munster (Ire) then Chiefs (NZ)
Brad Shields to Perpignan (Fra) to Wellington and Hurricanes (NZ)
Elliot Stooke to Bristol Bears then Montpellier (Fra) then Bath
Corbin Thunder to Newcastle Falcons
Michael van Vuuren to Newcastle Falcons
Tom West to Ealing Trailfinders then Leicester Tigers then Saracens
Jack Willis to Toulouse (Fra)
Tom Willis to Bordeaux (Fra) then Saracens.
BACKS
Charlie Atkinson to Leicester Tigers then Gloucester
Josh Bassett to Harlequins then Leicester Tigers
Ali Crossdale to Perpignan (Fra)
Manny Feyi-Waboso to Exeter Chiefs
Will Glister to Northampton Saints academy
Olly Hartley to Saracens
Will Haydon-Wood to Massy Essonne (Fra) then Exeter Chiefs
Francois Hougaard to Saracens then Sharks (SA)
Zach Kibirige to Western Force (Aus) then Biarritz (Fra)
Rekeiti Maasi-White to Sale Sharks
Matteo Minozzi to Benetton Treviso (Ita)
Burger Odendaal to Toshiba Brave Lupus Tokyo (Jap) then Northampton Saints
Paolo Odogwu to Stade Francais (Fra) then Benetton Treviso (Ita)
Will Porter to Bristol Bears then Harlequins
Dan Robson to Pau (Fra)
Sam Spink to Western Force (Aus)
Jacob Umaga to Benetton Treviso (Ita)
Sam Wolstenholme to Leicester Tigers then Bristol Bears.
2) ONE LEVEL DOWN OR OTHER
FORWARDS
Biyi Alo to Racing 92 (Fra) then Ealing Trailfinders
Kieran Curran to Bedford Blues
Cam Dodson to Aurillac (Fra)
Robin Hardwick to Ampthill then Chinnor
Ben Morris to Birmingham Moseley
Zac Nearchou to Ampthill
Mario Pichardie to Loughborough University
Theo Vukasinovic to Doncaster Knights then Northampton Saints then Rugby FC Los Angeles
BACKS
Tom Bacon to Ampthill
Harry Craven to Eastern Suburbs (Aus) then Chester
Ollie Dawkins to Ampthill
Billy Kucera to Ampthill then Exeter University
Luke Mehson to London Scottish
Epi Rokodrava to Ealing Trailfinders academy
Will Simonds to Chinnor.
3) NOT PLAYING AT TIME OF WRITING
FORWARDS
Ben Harris
James Tunney (initially to Ampthill)
BACKS
Ryan Mills (initially to Sale Sharks).
36
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Wow
« on: January 18, 2024, 03:33:39 PM »
American Football is the sort of game you need to be playing from very young to excel at, and to be at the top of a very tall pyramid, as these players are, no way.
37
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Wow
« on: January 16, 2024, 08:09:25 PM »Takes me back to when Wade did it.
And, other than a nice holiday, a beautiful wife, a big pile of money, where did that get him?
38
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Bill Sweeney Speaks = Anyone Listening?
« on: January 16, 2024, 08:08:29 PM »
The Rugby creditors issue is foremost. All 3 clubs were tasked with identifying and agreeing what these actually were.
My guess is that they will not get any 'investors' willing to pay towards that in any significant way, so the delays may be each of the clubs negotiating with those rugby creditors to reduce or write off those debts 'for the sake of the clubs'. Bottom line is, if the clubs do not resurrect this way, and either die or start at the bottom, they get not a penny from the club anyway.
My guess is that a letter from each creditor agreeing that the debt owed by the club is not a 'rugby debt', the RFU can wash its hands.
My guess is that they will not get any 'investors' willing to pay towards that in any significant way, so the delays may be each of the clubs negotiating with those rugby creditors to reduce or write off those debts 'for the sake of the clubs'. Bottom line is, if the clubs do not resurrect this way, and either die or start at the bottom, they get not a penny from the club anyway.
My guess is that a letter from each creditor agreeing that the debt owed by the club is not a 'rugby debt', the RFU can wash its hands.
39
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Chiefs struggling
« on: January 12, 2024, 09:47:33 PM »Seen Chiefs fans on Twitter claiming the good news that the groups loans have dropped by over ?20M, they may be less happy when they see I've pointed out that reason for that being there was ?21M of loans against the Hotel, they no longer own, hence removed from the accounts, which also accounts for the ?31M drop in fixed assets belonging to the club.
What is interesting is that they have repaid ?1M of the Covid loans, but the Sport England loan which is supposed to be paid back quarterly is at the exact same amount as it was last year!
Interest payments? If they have not paid down any of the core loan, that is bad news.
40
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Chiefs struggling
« on: January 11, 2024, 05:15:49 PM »That's just it, you can lose as much as you like as long as someone is willing to cover it.
Our problems have always been our owners were never rich enough!
I am not sure Tony Rowe can keep this up either, nor many of the Premiership club owners, and even those that can afford it, how many want to?
41
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Chiefs struggling
« on: January 11, 2024, 01:38:22 PM »
Exeter Rugby Group, which runs Exeter Chiefs, made a pre-tax loss of more than ?4.5m in the year to June 30 2023, up by ?1.7m from the previous year.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67946673
So much for their mightier than thou attitude at the losses made by other clubs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67946673
So much for their mightier than thou attitude at the losses made by other clubs.
42
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: NWW
« on: January 11, 2024, 01:00:57 PM »Happy Birthday Nelly, we should meet up on our bikes this year at the Touchdown Cafe for a coffee.
Happy Birthday to you to WonkyWasp
We should indeed, bit she's in bits right now getting some upgrades. Later when someone turns the heating on (sun).
43
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: NWW
« on: January 11, 2024, 12:24:54 PM »Happy Birthday to you Nelly. Always said you were tough as old boots
Happy Birdies, two ewes back at you.
4 years now since the heart attack.
I was in the swimming pool this morning being taught by my (swim teacher) daughter. At the end of the session (having already seen her at breakfast, as she lives at home), I said (in a squeaky high girlie voice), 'Happy Birthday, dad.'
She looked at me puzzled, then the penny dropped. 'Oh,' she said, 'if you are going shopping now, get a cake, some canned cream and a present for yourself ...'
Picked up a new T-Shirt from the great Touchdown Cafe on my way home.
44
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Championship Clubs V RFU
« on: January 10, 2024, 06:12:50 PM »
For consulting read dictating.
45
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: DT Today
« on: January 10, 2024, 04:34:12 PM »
Whilst, as with all 'well researched' pieces of journalism, this is riddled with hyperbole and speculation.
EXCEPT, as anybody will tell you who knows the area, it is a traffic nightmare at the best of times. It is totally unsuited to any form of mass entertainment venue.
I am not sure what sort of desperation would lead Mr Holland to even propose this.
He will spend years jumping from one idea to the next hare brained idea. In the meantime, what he should have done was to start a new team at any ground he could rent (or at Henley), and start working up the leagues. It will be a long road, but a journey starts with the first step.
By the time Wasps get close to the Championship, it will have been decades since it played any closer (to London) than High Wycombe, so I doubt that there will much of a fan base left in that M25 ring by then.
This idea has about as much chance of getting of the ground as the RFU 2 tier Premiership.
Once all the appeals have been done, and permission finally refused, another couple of years will have gone by.
EXCEPT, as anybody will tell you who knows the area, it is a traffic nightmare at the best of times. It is totally unsuited to any form of mass entertainment venue.
I am not sure what sort of desperation would lead Mr Holland to even propose this.
He will spend years jumping from one idea to the next hare brained idea. In the meantime, what he should have done was to start a new team at any ground he could rent (or at Henley), and start working up the leagues. It will be a long road, but a journey starts with the first step.
By the time Wasps get close to the Championship, it will have been decades since it played any closer (to London) than High Wycombe, so I doubt that there will much of a fan base left in that M25 ring by then.
This idea has about as much chance of getting of the ground as the RFU 2 tier Premiership.
Once all the appeals have been done, and permission finally refused, another couple of years will have gone by.