Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Raggs on December 02, 2019, 09:33:48 PM
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So latest Bobby Bridge report says we're spending under the cap, and don't have the budget to bring in an injury joker.
Looks like we're trying to make a push to being more self sustaining. A good thing of course, but it maybe the results suffer a bit in doing so.
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Its no secret we are not awash with cash and have expenses coming up in training ground.
Reality bites I guess, if we were desperate then maybe a different outcome but we can probably muddle through.
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This has to be the right strategy long term and will enable the academy players to develop hopefully into first team regulars. We'll certainly need them to. Lack of play off games and Champions Cup has probably meant we've had to cut our cloth accordingly. Strangely the side effects may be beneficial if we can keep ourselves afloat this year.
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I doubt it is that clear cut.
I am sure we are not at the limit of the cap, and I'm sure Dai doesn't curently have the budget for a medical joker to spend.
But I suspect that spending under the cap is a board level decision, and that they had their justification for it. I am also sure that if Dai went to the board and said he absolutely needed a medical joker then the money would be there. But until the specifics of the injuries to the players we have are confirmed with timescales to recovery then I doubt that will happen. Why would the budget be there for something we don't actually know if we need?
That specific use of money has not as yet been budgeted for, therefore Dai does not have the budget.
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A sensible post!
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Can't argue with that VV.
I suspect being in the challenge cup may have been seen as a chance to reduce the number of "high" end players, and utilise cheaper players in the euros, giving our better players time to rest. Comes with the fun side effect of youth getting a chance to impress.
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I suspect being in the challenge cup may have been seen as a chance to reduce the number of "high" end players, and utilise cheaper players in the euros, giving our better players time to rest. Comes with the fun side effect of youth getting a chance to impress.
Yep, a win win for us really.
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I seem to recall in the pre-season that posters were lauding the SID we had in the second row with seven, yes seven, locks. Now, with five injured, we're discussing a medical joker.
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All of the above makes sense, with the caveat we are not relegated.
Right now it is us or Tigers, maybe Warriors at a push- does anyone here think otherwise right now?
Hopefully in a few months it will be Tigers, Warriors and not us.
There is an tendency here to point to the hysteria of the DW site, whilst they refer to happy clappy nature of this one. The truth lies somewhere in between. Nobody has a monopoly of wisdom, and right now if you said you were a time traveller from the future and told me our not-up-to-the-cap team was going to be relegated I might believe you, some signs are there for sure. Tell me how we are any better than Falcons last year, a fine team by any measure. One good team will go down this year, there are no bad ones.
There will be no win-win for us if we are relegated, so we need to leave no stone unturned to avoid that, and if that means spending then that us what we must do. If Dai asks for it- and we don't have any info- then the board must deliver. So far we know nothing as to what has been asked for, unless anyone has details?
The really galling thing is we have some star names who are not performing whilst some of the younger players are looking good. I think we just need the right run if fixtures, but relegation is a possibility. No team.is too good to go- look at Tigers- quality players abound.
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There will be no win-win for us if we are relegated, so we need to leave no stone unturned to avoid that, and if that means spending then that us what we must do.
If and only IF, we are relegated, the business case is unsustainable. The bond price will fall through the floor. The financial statements have consistently been based on reaching the playoffs and Champions Cup qualification. Attendances are in decline and this year, the average gate will be the lowest since the move to the Ricoh. ST numbers must be falling. The euphoria and glitz of the first 3 seasons has disappeared. The performances of the team are average with a few bright sparks.
A big shake up is needed before oblivion beckons.
I hate to say it but we should now forget the Challenge Cup. All the focus has to be on the GP. Beating Quins is a must.
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Agree with the European cup sentiments, it’s no use winning the thing if we get relegated. However we’ve been so inconsistent the past couple years, I’d say let’s try and play ourselves into some form while we can. Only risk is making us susceptible to more injuries
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So latest Bobby Bridge report says we're spending under the cap, and don't have the budget to bring in an injury joker.
Looks like we're trying to make a push to being more self sustaining. A good thing of course, but it maybe the results suffer a bit in doing so.
Do you have a URL link to the article?
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All of the above makes sense, with the caveat we are not relegated.
Right now it is us or Tigers, maybe Warriors at a push- does anyone here think otherwise right now?
Tell me how we are any better than Falcons last year, a fine team by any measure. One good team will go down this year, there are no bad ones.
There will be no win-win for us if we are relegated, so we need to leave no stone unturned to avoid that, and if that means spending then that us what we must do.
No team.is too good to go- look at Tigers- quality players abound.
We're not better than Falcons - they were 4th the season before going down. And unless we win one of our next three fixtures, we'll have done worse than them at the start of the season - as AKW said - beating Quins is a must and bare minimum.
No team is too good - Tigers have the potential advantage that if they can over come whatever issues are bugging them, they can start Youngs, Ford, Manu and May, 4 RWC starters and in Ford, they have the player with the experience of virtually singlehandedly pulling them away from relegation last year.
All of which contributes to my view that if the club is to take action - it need to do so asap. Looking for solutions in February will be too late imo.
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Much as I have been looking forward to the Edinburgh matches (for years) I also think Europe should be set aside. Our opponents over the next two weeks can be strong and quite brutal at times and we do not need one more injury.
The other side is we have to be competitive or else depression will set in- not sure how many 30/40 point losses we all can take.
Anyone going on Friday (yes we are there) look at the size of Kinghorn - at fullback or wing he is huge and the type we have needed for years.
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All of the above makes sense, with the caveat we are not relegated.
Right now it is us or Tigers, maybe Warriors at a push- does anyone here think otherwise right now?
Tell me how we are any better than Falcons last year, a fine team by any measure. One good team will go down this year, there are no bad ones.
There will be no win-win for us if we are relegated, so we need to leave no stone unturned to avoid that, and if that means spending then that us what we must do.
No team.is too good to go- look at Tigers- quality players abound.
We're not better than Falcons - they were 4th the season before going down. And unless we win one of our next three fixtures, we'll have done worse than them at the start of the season - as AKW said - beating Quins is a must and bare minimum.
No team is too good - Tigers have the potential advantage that if they can over come whatever issues are bugging them, they can start Youngs, Ford, Manu and May, 4 RWC starters and in Ford, they have the player with the experience of virtually singlehandedly pulling them away from relegation last year.
All of which contributes to my view that if the club is to take action - it need to do so asap. Looking for solutions in February will be too late imo.
Didn't help them at the weekend though did it? And those players will not be available for a huge tranche of the Premiership season to come.
I agree that we certainly need to do something with what we've currently got, as there's no outside factor that will deliver us a boost. It's up to the players and coaches to rally together now. They gotta get themselves together, ask some pretty tough questions, and rediscover a desire to be nasty cunts on the pitch. It's not ability that's lacking. It's mindset. For starters we have to be more physical on the carry. let's have Ash and Sione charging in to people full throttle. Let's get aggressive line speed in defence behind Tommy. Let's get Jack over the ball every chance we get. Let's make people fear us again.
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So latest Bobby Bridge report says we're spending under the cap, and don't have the budget to bring in an injury joker.
Looks like we're trying to make a push to being more self sustaining. A good thing of course, but it maybe the results suffer a bit in doing so.
Do you have a URL link to the article?
Here you are:
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-injury-updates-dai-young-17352540 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-injury-updates-dai-young-17352540)
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Peej - re Tigers
I did say "if" they get over their issues. no, it didn't help at the w/e, but even if they play averagely,its a decent set of players to have.
And as for England calls, we just don't know. Jones is quoted as suggesting a refresh of the squad - looking to 2023, so perhaps.
But last season, Ford dragged them over the line. He's there an fit still
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Peej - re Tigers
I did say "if" they get over their issues. no, it didn't help at the w/e, but even if they play averagely,its a decent set of players to have.
And as for England calls, we just don't know. Jones is quoted as suggesting a refresh of the squad - looking to 2023, so perhaps.
But last season, Ford dragged them over the line. He's there an fit still
This generally. I think Tigers will click and make safety. We just need to do it quicker!
I am dreading EJ deciding that a Willis or two need to be in the squad.
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So latest Bobby Bridge report says we're spending under the cap, and don't have the budget to bring in an injury joker.
Looks like we're trying to make a push to being more self sustaining. A good thing of course, but it maybe the results suffer a bit in doing so.
Do you have a URL link to the article?
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-injury-updates-dai-young-17352540
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This generally. I think Tigers will click and make safety. We just need to do it quicker!
I am dreading EJ deciding that a Willis or two need to be in the squad.
I think we're behind Tigers in a number of aspects - they might be playing rather badly, but I'd guess they know their best first XV, I'd not be 100% certain we do and I'm struggling to see what we need to do to click - or even if that's possible - he said - glass half empty
But....we can put out a world class front row and backrow, looking forwards to Young and Brad being fit, we've looked pretty good upfront when its clicked. I'm more concerned by the backs. Its a lot of pressure for a tyro 10, we need Dan at his best, and the back three to look like they've met before. I can see a game plan - that won't be very "Wasps", more forward orientated, and lower risk that at least gets us into the position to win games. Its not form or how pretty we look, its points that count. And a scrappy 9-3 win will do just fine!
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I seem to remember being told back in 2014 that Wasps were going to become the wealthiest rugby club in the world, just a couple of years on from near oblivion. When is this going to happen as we now appear to be much closer to oblivion again?
No good trying to dress it up as some kind of opportunity for rebuilding. We might get relegated and that would have potentially terminal consequences. The finances we were promised at the time of the move haven't materialised. We got 2 or 3 decent seasons with nice headline grabbing signings before financial reality bit. No playoffs, no Champions Cup = reduced revenue. A relegation scrap looks as likely this year as it did in 2012, and that could be the end of the road. Coventry already has a Championship rugby club. Surely it can't support another one. Would Midlands based supporters still remain loyal to Wasps if they find themselves in the same league as the established local side? Would SE based supporters continue to schlep 100 miles to watch Championship rugby? Certainly in both cases, not in anything like the numbers they do currently. Quins and Saints both came back stronger following relegation, but in very different circumstances.
5 games into the Prem season and let's not beat about the bush, we are in the mire. Sarries will sail past us by about February at a guess. Whoever suggested Worcester might make it a 3 way scrap needs to take a look at the table (they're a point and 2 places ahead of Irish for one). There's plenty of time for things to change, and at this stage of the season one win can send you 4-5 places up the table, but that win needs to come soon before losing becomes too much of a habit.
Sorry for the doom and gloom, but this is the reality of where we're at.
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There must be some room in the salary cap because Garratt and Neale's wages would have been part of the cap at the start of the season but that doesn't mean we have the cash in the budget to sign a 3 month injury cover which would probably cost a lot more than what we've saved with Garratt and Neale leaving.
I think we're just going to have to muddle through for the enxt few games and hope more are fit for the Quins game.
Regarding our current relegation rivals (and Sarries) - a lot of their snr players will already be well through their "mins played" season quotas because of the summer warm-up and WC games. I don;t know what the limit is but I know its been reduced from last season.
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Having room in the salary cap does not mean we have money in the budget. I get the feeling that is the issue. Money 'saved' by not having some players on the books any more is unlikely to be made available for new players. If we lose players, I think Dai will have to live with that. I suspect next season's budget may be tighter. If we lost an expensive player, there is no guarantee that money would then become available.
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It's a fine balance as there is so little between the teams in 3rd and 4th and those in 11th and 12th. Cutting back too far and suddenly you are in 12th looking up, spending too much may easily see you in 7th and way over budget. It's a tough tightrope to walk, unless you are the Cheats in which you spend what you want.
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Do medical jokers not get paid out of the insurance money for injured players - and are so outside the cap? Or have I imagined that?
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Do medical jokers not get paid out of the insurance money for injured players - and are so outside the cap? Or have I imagined that?
Nothing to do with the cap (there's a limit of £400k on medical jokers within the cap), it's a Wasps budget issue, not a PRL salary cap issue.
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Do medical jokers not get paid out of the insurance money for injured players - and are so outside the cap? Or have I imagined that?
I would have thought insurance money would only be paid out for long term injuries, probably 6 months or more.
As Raggs says.. it sounds like we simply don't have cash on spreadsheet to pay for temporary cover. I would hope that's simply the board telling Dai to stick to a pre-agreed budget.
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I would have thought insurance money would only be paid out for long term injuries, probably 6 months or more.
As Raggs says.. it sounds like we simply don't have cash on spreadsheet to pay for temporary cover. I would hope that's simply the board telling Dai to stick to a pre-agreed budget.
This.
If the injuries meet the criteria then the replacement is outside the cap, if they don't then it is not, and you have to ask then if we actually need it. I'm sure that if when it comes to the Quins game we are still struggling to find a squad to put out then the money will be there. I'm also sure that the club is already looking at possible short term signings. But it's really important we get them right, we signed Nemo as injury cover and he is now one of our best players...
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Looks like we are back to shopping at lidl again, we do have to be smarter in our choices from now on. Maybe younger more hungry players then journey men.
This season is definitely going to be a hard season for us, I'm struggling to find a squad that is worst then ours, I think we are in serious trouble. It's our own fault we have made some very poor player choices in the last couple of seasons, my only positive is hopefully our younger players get us out of trouble. Then how long can we hold onto them, if we get relegated or we keep scrapping to stay up.
If we make top 6 then I would say this will be Dai's best season for us, as it would be an amazing achievement. We have got to stop the volume of injuries and the players need to play as a team or we will go down.
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Alluding to where VV is going. Hypothetical, you have cash on the office desk for a short term signing. The bigger question is 'who is that signing'? Spending cash for the sake of having it is nonsense. Nakarawa aside, who is sitting by the phone that will change our direction. You can pick up a warm body anywhere.
On paper we already have a top 6 side, will adding another quality player will just add to the malaise we are currently suffering, it'll just be more expensive malaise? For a positive spin on it, If we can hang in there on the set pieces would having Sheilds on the pitch improve our open field play, effectively 4 back rowers?
I never thought I'd do this but I have dropped 50 quid on us being relegated, the odd's were too good to ignore given how our fellow strugglers have kicked on. Worc still favourites to go down..looking at their results and confidence to play, no chance. Our only saving grace is that we have lost away to teams that most people will also lose away to.
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50 quid?! Yikes ... I'm worried but I am not that confident I wouldn't lose it!
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Spending cash for the sake of having it is nonsense
Absolutely agree. We really don't want to have a short term signee (is that the right word?) warming the bench or worse just carrying tackle bags because we get some players back from injury. Waste of our money and his time. We've had a nasty run of injuries to our second row. Can we get through it? Yes, I think we can - particularly if we decide we have to concentrate on the league. Do we want to potentially break players trying to end up playing on two fronts by getting out of our group in Europe? Not in my opinion.
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50 quid?! Yikes ... I'm worried but I am not that confident I wouldn't lose it!
8-1, if it comes in I'll console myself on a nearly paid for holiday. ;D >:( (couldnt decide which smiley that deserves.
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I agree the Quins game has become huge but I think we'll win it. Sale, Glaws and Exe are three tough away games. The problem has been the Irish game. We seriously shot ourselves in the foot there. If we can win three of the next six games we'll be ok. Anything less than that and it will be a relegation scrap. I think it will be Irish who go down. I just hope we know it's not us a good few weeks out.
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The Irish loss was massive, even as a first game it add's up over the season. We'll have to win there to even it out but even then it is in reality a loss overall.
They are not going down for me, looking at their results and they have extra bodies coming in, I genuinely think it's between us Tigers and maybe Quins. Quins win a lot at home as do Tigers traditionally. I agree the game against Quins is huge, as is any game against the teams at the (projected) bottom, beating them is key to staying up..obvious I know.
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Agreed, relegation is between Wasps, Quins and Tigers.
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Before the start of the season who thought we would be in a relegation scrap?
Genuine question, not trying to have a pop at the more optimistic here.
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I would expect most of us supporters would have hoped that we would be fighting for top 6 (who knows we may get there) but if you asked supporters of other clubs they would have probably said we and tigers would be in the same position along with newly promoted London Irish.
Nothing dramatic has changed at both clubs so why would our league positions.
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Before the start of the season who thought we would be in a relegation scrap?
Genuine question, not trying to have a pop at the more optimistic here.
Well not me for one :( But, with seven locks, I didn't think we'd be looking at having to play someone out of position in order to be included in the 23.
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Before the start of the season who thought we would be in a relegation scrap?
Genuine question, not trying to have a pop at the more optimistic here.
I suspect that most of us realised things were a bit squeaky last season and that if we didn't play better then we'd be in a relegation scrap this season.
And obviously, we are in that position at the moment.
However, the ray of light for me is that I genuinely believe we're playing better this season then we were last season.
I know that we haven't won those games, and that ultimately that's the important factor.
However the first step to winning is playing better.
What's important right now for me is that we try to keep some confidence.
You can't win games without a good set of forwards, and with our injuries in the second row we will struggle, but the expectation is that it should only be short term.
With the return of Thomas Young, the form of Willis Sr. and Nizaam Carr, and the ability of Willis Jr, I can see Brad Shields being used as emergency lock cover when he's fit.
While our squad doesn't have the star power that it's had over recent years, we do have far more numbers in depth (which is where I believe the budget has been spent), it's time for those guys to show that they're worthy.
We can't write any of them off - after all, who expected Flament to be any good?
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I expected us to mid table, and I still do.
It feels like we're a lot further in to the season than we actually are, and there will be some readjustment over the next month or two.
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Before the start of the season who thought we would be in a relegation scrap?
Genuine question, not trying to have a pop at the more optimistic here.
Not me - I thought that a decent pre season (missed by some incoming players) and the late season form of Watson and a new FH and Jimmy fit would mean safe mediocrity. My only concerns were last season's improvements in Glaws and Saints making "the middle" a lot more crowded, ditto, Sale.
I watched the LI game thinking we looked a bit rusty - but expected us to win, if a little scrappy. I was disappointed, but then Glaws game set alarm bells ringing - Bath seemed to be that turning point, but then Sale...
So at one win from four and looking at Exeter (a) Quins (h) Bristol (a) and Saints (h) it suddenly looked a lot more daunting with the season edging towards a cliff that will require quite a turnaround to move away from.
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We could have won that Sale game if we hadnt imploded..in terms of play we were equal if not better, we scored more tries than them and theirs was an intercept at that. On another day we'd have had the 4 points. 2 should'ves so far, we'd be 8-9 points better.
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We've only had two home games so far and the loss to LI was a bad one. Last season we covered up a poor home form with some decent away wins, however this season I think we really need to knuckle down and pick up more points at home otherwise we will be in the mire. We need to start playing with a bit more awareness to pick up more points from games than we are doing. Heading into the last moments at both the LI and Sale games we could well have picked up wins but in the end have a total of 1 point.
As for budget issues... We do have to be sensible, and if Chesty is looking like he could be gone for some time the priority would be replacing him. The lock injuries seem like they should have eased a little around xmas\new year time. We will also need to keep some funds back to cover wages for contract renewals.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/50602421 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/50602421)
The difference a billionaire makes over a millionaire. Sorry DR.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/50602421 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/50602421)
The difference a billionaire makes over a millionaire. Sorry DR.
AND an area that wants its presence!
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It's a great point made up the thread that we seem further into the season than we are. We've played two home games in the league and won 1 of those. I take us to have an excellent chance of winning the other 9 possibly apart from Exeter and Sarries. That gives us a possible 7 wins. We'll pick a couple of away wins up and that should do.
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It's a great point made up the thread that we seem further into the season than we are. We've played two home games in the league and won 1 of those. I take us to have an excellent chance of winning the other 9 possibly apart from Exeter and Sarries. That gives us a possible 7 wins. We'll pick a couple of away wins up and that should do.
We are a qtr in and arguably 3 games that most will have down for a loss, thats the positive. Problem is others are going to be doing the same thing, some are already doing it.
The other scenario being we never quite get that last 5% and have a season of nearlies, shoulda's, coulda's..much like against LI.
I do take positives from the games we lost, LI & Glaws aside, they were awful. I hope that switch flicks.
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My main worry is looking at Newcastle last season. They were up and down in form, but "not fair off" in their first 8 fixtures, but only won 2. And never recovered.
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A run of 2 or 3 wins and things start to look a lot better. And that applies equally to most of the Premiership, not just Wasps. I think narrowing down a potential relegation scrap to two or three teams at this stage is a tad premature. Currently 9 points between 11th and 4th, and any one of those in between could find themselves moving up or down that group in the space of just a few games. I'm damn sure Worcester and Irish aren't sitting in 4th and 6th at the moment happily thinking they have already escaped a potential relegation scrap. Unfortunately, it's hard to see the required run of results going Wasps' way soon given the upcoming fixtures. Next sequence includes Worcester, Leicester and Irish though, so more possibilities there. In the mean time, beat Quins at home and things start looking a little rosier.