Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: HDAWG on June 26, 2021, 08:00:14 PM
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Fair play to Quins, what a game.
Honestly didn't think they'd do it. I have mixed feelings about them winning....
Good because refreshing change and all, they've played well last half of season and proven they can compete with the best.
But... Still really annoys me they managed it this year and we couldn't last year or in 2026/17. I know I know, it doesn't work like that. But can't deny my jealousy.
Overall great game though.
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Well played Quins. They played amazingly over the last few months. It ends. 2year season for Exeter which might have caught up with them in the end. It will be very interesting next season when things are a bit more normal to see where all these teams sit. Quins season in many ways mirrored our last season except they did what we couldn’t and won. It will be interesting if they can kick on again and be regular contenders.
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It makes you wonder what might have been with different weather, or a full squad for us.
For Quins, what I think is interesting is that as teams get better, they generally get coached to tighten up - keep possession tight, improve defence etc…
Quins have simply focussed on their strengths. Have a solid enough set-piece to retain possession and attack with. They’ve played with pace and guile and attacked the breakdown.
We’ve got a very similar DNA to Quins, so if we get back to focussing on turnover ball and unstructured play perhaps our buccaneering spirit will help us get back to a level where we know we can compete.
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Thought Quins were gone and out on their feet with 15 to go, where they got that last effort from after last week's exertions was unbelievable.
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Great game , just what you need from a final
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And if Eddie is still not prepared to give Marcus Smith a proper crack for England in a run of meaningful games then he should be sacked. The lad is head and shoulders better than any other English 10.
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Not going to lie, I am delighted.
Chiefs I hope slide down the table and take their maul with them. Great club, but their style is not for me
Quins always an ambitious team in terms of playing, and one who have fallen prey to the money bags teams and developed a chunk of talent.
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And if Eddie is still not prepared to give Marcus Smith a proper crack for England in a run of meaningful games then he should be sacked. The lad is head and shoulders better than any other English 10.
I was thinking on this as I was impressed with the lad from watching all the games I could. But unless England decide to change how they play, then there's no more point in playing him than there would have been Danny, after the 2018 SA Tour. And whilst I'd be delighted to be proven wrong, given the apparently undroppable players who were clearly involved in the very poor 6Ns, I'm not expecting anything......
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Great game. Baxter had it spot on when he said Exeter just thought it would be ok. I've sensed their domination is on the slide all season. Quins have two of the best props around in Marler but especially Louw who is an absolute beast. Couple those two with Care and Smith and you win. If Smith isn't England's starting 10 for a good while there is something seriously wrong.
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A cracking game for the neutral. I was howver cheering Quins on!
Their SF and this game were two for the video archives.
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Watched it late last night without knowing the score, what a game and if that doesn’t attract new fans nothing will.
For those writing off the Chiefs don’t forget they had a similar season to us, short pre season and no Covid breaks. The only difference was that Eddie didn’t call up their best players and leave them sitting around or, worse still, broken.
On another thread someone mentioned Matt Carney becoming England’s best referee, I thought he had a good game and contributed to it being a classic, he kept it moving and is obviously respected by the players.
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And if Eddie is still not prepared to give Marcus Smith a proper crack for England in a run of meaningful games then he should be sacked. The lad is head and shoulders better than any other English 10.
I was thinking on this as I was impressed with the lad from watching all the games I could. But unless England decide to change how they play, then there's no more point in playing him than there would have been Danny, after the 2018 SA Tour. And whilst I'd be delighted to be proven wrong, given the apparently undroppable players who were clearly involved in the very poor 6Ns, I'm not expecting anything......
I agree. Which is why I said he should be sacked. We're not going to move away from a team built around Owen Farrell until Eddie is shown the door. Needs a new approach with Smith first name on the team sheet. Might suddenly give some of those undroppables a much needed kick up the backside too.
Farrell won't like it, just as he didn't like Cips, and IMO was one of the reasons Cips never played for England after that SA tour.
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I agree. It was ironic that Dany probably saved Jones' bacon in getting that win in SA - but like reported, you were either with the "in" crowd or excluded. And Farrell and Ford seemed to be in charge......
Squidge rugby did an excellent review of the 2019 England loss to Wales which suggested the limitations of our game plan. When it works (pressuring mistakes and kicking) it's very hard to stop - but as Squidge suggested, it's plan A or more of the same. Wales were able to nullify the kicking game and we had nothing else to offer.
Last 6N's, we saw that in many ways, the other teams had moved on and we looked like it was 2018 again.....and we had nothing but the power and kick game. Worked for a period vs France......that was it. And if Smith is to play - then Jones will have to demonstrate that he's the genius he thinks he is.......
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I do agree with you guys EJ should've been pushing to rotate 10s when one is out of form.
I'm not too unhappy that Cips didn't get more England caps, because he is a difficult person to have. Everything has to be built around him, so it's not a seemless transition going from Farrell/Ford to Cips. And he's at the end of his career. I also thought Cips was the best fly half in England prior to SA tour.
Smith though, there's no excuses because he is the best or at least up there, he doesn't require a team rebuild and he's still like 21. It's now or never with him because he deserves it. Or England ought to be making the transition.
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I think Quins (along with Wasps, Bristol etc) are ushering in a more complete and exciting brand of rugby in this country.
Now the fans, the pundits, the ex-players, the media have all witnessed and experienced it, there is absolutely no excuse for England's national side to play any other way.
How could they?
The players playing this dynamic, fast and exhilarating style are predominantly English.
The skills levels are there.
The confidence levels are there.
The fitness levels are there.
And the paying fans, having been away from full stadiums for the past 18 months, are desperate to be properly entertained....which, by jove, they were yesterday.
So on earth is Eddie ever going to be able to justify playing that turgid, ponderous style of 'fear of failure' rugby ever again??
Quite simply....he can't.
Quins, this season, have done us all a huge favour. They have stripped away all remaining excuses Eddie ever had. He is now laid bare.
Over to you Eddie.
Stop projecting your own limitations and lack of imagination on to everyone else. Set the players free to play and believe in their ability.
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Agree with above on England. I’d have paid England prices and more to watch rugby like that,I wouldn’t go out of my way to watch an England team on free to air TV.
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Eddie will tell you that international rugby is different, prem form is no guide etc. He will then pick Farrell et al. playing the same game plan.
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Quins success is based on a very basic, well known formula. A dominant pack headed by Marler and Louw allowing gifted half backs to dictate play. It makes for entertainment. If you have an occasionally dominant pack giving the ball to a 10 or 12 to kick it doesn't. Jones is trying to be too clever to feed his own ego and in doing so is providing zero entertainment and patchy results.
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Jones is trying to be too clever to feed his own ego and in doing so is providing zero entertainment and patchy results.
Absolutely.
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Eddie will tell you that international rugby is different, prem form is no guide etc. He will then pick Farrell et al. playing the same game plan.
Was interesting watching the lions game to see some of the england players being able to offload in the tackle and keep the ball moving. Show's what happens when their told not to just take it into contact.
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Quins success is based on a very basic, well known formula. A dominant pack headed by Marler and Louw allowing gifted half backs to dictate play. It makes for entertainment. If you have an occasionally dominant pack giving the ball to a 10 or 12 to kick it doesn't. Jones is trying to be too clever to feed his own ego and in doing so is providing zero entertainment and patchy results.
This. I do not think Jones understands that England fans really value 6Ns games and want to do well. And that given the resources and money spent, coming 5th isn't good enough. He ought to have got that in 2018 when England had their longest losing run in recent times, only rescued by Danny in SA, on tour. It may well be that all that matters to Jones is the RWC, but in many ways, for the big teams, you probably only need to win two difficult games to win it.....and England are always capable of beating any team......usually having access to a monster pack. Otherwise, 91 and 07 wouldn't have happened.
SL's team put 38 points on NZ in an AI and fulfilled a very awkward three test tour of NZ......So the SF win, whilst good, wasn't unique...and England's lows under Jones have been ineptly poor. Both in selection and play. And yet when the opportunity comes to move the play on and have alternatives, they seem to be rejected. Or some rather bizarre selection like Daly at FB is persisted with regardless or really good players rejected (Brad and Nick Isiekwe come to mind)
Jones is a fab one off coach. The coach to win a game for your life - as the saying sort of goes - but he does seem to get a bee in his bonnet which can restrict his thinking. Not alone in the coaching world - but the loss to Scotland really ought to have been the warning last 6Ns - but no - England were playing similarly vs Ireland in the last game.....
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It may well be that all that matters to Jones is the RWC,
As any economist will tell you: incentives matter.
He was brought in to win the World Cup, not the 6N or tour matches, and got to the final. On the back of that he was given an extension to have another go at the World Cup and that’s what matters to him.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a big fat bonus for him if they do win it, just to focus his mind.
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Not going to lie, I am delighted.
Chiefs I hope slide down the table and take their maul with them. Great club, but their style is not for me
Quins always an ambitious team in terms of playing, and one who have fallen prey to the money bags teams and developed a chunk of talent.
Couldn't agree more, I'm chuffed that after 6 seasons of power based play winning the premiership, a team playing with flair and exciting to watch has finally won. Long may the trend continue.
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It may well be that all that matters to Jones is the RWC,
As any economist will tell you: incentives matter.
He was brought in to win the World Cup, not the 6N or tour matches, and got to the final. On the back of that he was given an extension to have another go at the World Cup and that’s what matters to him.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a big fat bonus for him if they do win it, just to focus his mind.
That's all very well BiND. But his game plan will not win him a WC or a fat bonus either, whatever he thinks.
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It may well be that all that matters to Jones is the RWC,
As any economist will tell you: incentives matter.
He was brought in to win the World Cup, not the 6N or tour matches, and got to the final. On the back of that he was given an extension to have another go at the World Cup and that’s what matters to him.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a big fat bonus for him if they do win it, just to focus his mind.
That's all very well BiND. But his game plan will not win him a WC or a fat bonus either, whatever he thinks.
I agree, I was just stating what I think is going on.
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To return to the thread title (not that I disagree about EJ's ludicrous selections), got to congratulate Quins, they played some sparkling rugby towards the end of the season that was such a refreshing change from the bore fest that the Premiership so often serves up. It wasn't pleasant being on the receiving end when they thumped us at home but makes it a little easier to take when they beat Exeter playing that way. And BTW, I strongly feel that the result should have been more comfortable. I was gobsmacked when Sam Simmons' try was allowed to stand without even a review. He broke from the back of a ruck, was tackled by two Quins players who clearly bought him to ground and he got straight back up without releasing the ball. Penalty Quins. The otherwise excellent Mathew Carley really should have taken a look.
Like others I can't help drawing comparisons with last season and wondering if our final result would have been different had the weather been like Saturday, the team had been a full strength without any self-isolating absentees and Wayne Barnes been in the middle as originally scheduled. No offence to Craig Maxwell Keys but he's proving time and time again that he's not ready for the big occasions, he has plenty of promise and actually he reminds me of Barnes who was also very shaky in his first 2 or 3 seasons in the Premiership. We were in the form of our life and I was pretty confident of a victory before fate conspired against us. The best teams however can adapt to the circumstances and still win so fair play to Chiefs but I would have loved to have seen us run them ragged!
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Fair play to Adam Jones, 'We done it without cheating' to Alex Goode... ;D
https://twitter.com/RugbyJOE_UK/status/1409828091950780418?s=20
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Fair play to Adam Jones, 'We done it without cheating' to Alex Goode... ;D
while I love that, its a bit rich given Quins history of cheating...
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Fair point, however, like you I love it, particularly Alex Goode's feeble ' Easy bud'.
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Fair play to Adam Jones, 'We done it without cheating' to Alex Goode... ;D
while I love that, its a bit rich given Quins history of cheating...
What quins did was disgraceful.
But Jones was nothing to do with the club then. I love what he says.
He's obviously had a few and didn't care about any repercussions, but the more people that call it what it was, the better
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Fair play to Adam Jones, 'We done it without cheating' to Alex Goode... ;D
while I love that, its a bit rich given Quins history of cheating...
What quins did was disgraceful.
But Jones was nothing to do with the club then. I love what he says.
He's obviously had a few and didn't care about any repercussions, but the more people that call it what it was, the better
It highlights the fact that there is widespread disdain for Sarries within the club game amongst players, coaches, supporters, you name it. The mainstream media who only really pay any attention to rugby at international level aren't interested in calling it out (apart from one individual at the DM to whom we are all eternally grateful) as Sarries are so intrinsically linked to the current England set up.
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Fair play to Adam Jones, 'We done it without cheating' to Alex Goode... ;D
while I love that, its a bit rich given Quins history of cheating...
What quins did was disgraceful.
But Jones was nothing to do with the club then. I love what he says.
He's obviously had a few and didn't care about any repercussions, but the more people that call it what it was, the better
It highlights the fact that there is widespread disdain for Sarries within the club game amongst players, coaches, supporters, you name it. The mainstream media who only really pay any attention to rugby at international level aren't interested in calling it out (apart from one individual at the DM to whom we are all eternally grateful) as Sarries are so intrinsically linked to the current England set up.
So right!