Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Shugs on October 20, 2019, 07:31:36 PM
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Doesn't seem to be a thread exclusively for this. Just back and overwhelming emotion is real disappointment. We looked lateral and inventiveless in attack. I'd like to know if someone is instructing Sopoaga to play so deep. Kibirige finished well but defensively we have a real issue on his flank. When we camped on their line in the second half the ball was terribly slow and we just employed the "if you miss a tackle we'll score" approach. With such slow ball they weren't going to miss tackles. We have issues (longstanding, not just today) at second row and 12 which are hurting us. We really need Gopperth back. A courple of really odd decisions were worrying 1) To kick for three with 7 minutes left invited them back into our half and then 2) When we won an attacking line out with nothing on the clock we threw to the front when they were never going to contest, making it easy for them to pile in at the front. To try and find positives Willis was different class and our scrum was ok.
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Agree with all that.
Will also add we had lots of offside penalties. Attack didn't seem to catch Irish off-guard. We didn't protect the ball at the breakdown. We tried to offload too much and tried too hard to keep the ball alive sometimes. We also didn't offload at the right times e.g. Watson not offloading to 3 other players. I didn't think Fekitoa was used correctly.
In the first half we had moments of brilliant quick ball and looked exceptional in build up to first try. Once again lack consistency.
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Other than a few odd decisions, and listening to the RefLink, JP seemed to have a relatively OK game.
Ball was very slow out of our ruck. Got turned over a few times as Robson while waving his arms at something; they simply knicked it back off us.
In the first half we continued to run into contact with no support == penalties for holding on etc. Second half that started to get a bot better.
Irish defence was a model of how to do it. Ours wasn't bad, but when we did the rush up on their line, they simply tossed it over our somewhat shorter players.
Our lineout got disrupted way too often, but our scrum was good.
Our backs may be fast, but we were simply outsized there. We were never going to run through them, or around them.
With such slow ball, our forwards must have spent 30 minutes on their 5m line running in to a brick wall. Their was one knock on that was deliberate and should have been a penalty try, but, you take the rough the smooth.
With all the territory and possession we had in the second half, it was criminal not to win that game.
IF that is our best, we are not going to do very well this season. So, I look forward to further improvement and better results.
Onwards and upwards, I am sure the squad and our excellent coaches will be working on it during the week.
I didn't see anyone obviously badly injured (maybe Booj, who wasn't having a good game, not that Juan was any improvement - have I mentioned before that we need a 12?). Tommy is a bit odd, as this is far from the first time he has cried off sick right before the game. Does he like dodgy curries or something?
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I agree in the main with NWW - as I said on the other thread, it was a new team in essence - it was going to have moments - but it looked too much like the way they played was how they were told/wanted to play.
The worry is that was how they were coached/directed to play.
Lets wait on next week - but if its no different - then the senior players need to stand up and be counted as this could get out of control quite quickly with Glaws away and Bath at home. Both Sarries and Saints with loads of first teamers missing looked like they had met before....we were not that weakened by RWC/Injuries
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Shugs....basically what I wrote on the other thread.
Mike..think you'll find Irish were a newer team
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Yep - that's true - makes it worse.....
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Brad Shields was injured but he can’t go through a game without getting injured
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I have often supported Dai, but I have always qualified it - if he wants to play a safety first foward orientated game with a ten deep in the pocket, solid set piece and a couple of fast wings added on for decoration, like putting go faster stripes on a tractor, then, frankly, he can go because it won't be successful and it isn't what I want to watch a Wasps team doing. It is often difficult to see what he wants, given what we have played like at different times over his tenure and the rotation and injury lists, so I am hoping that he wants to play with a ten in traffic, a mobile back row that effects turnovers and a set of forwards and backs who can interchange. I guess time will tell, but today is more worrying for the style than the performance. The scrum was fine, but I am forced to concur with many of the opinions above- it is a bit worrying to say the least.....
As for some of our decisions, yeah odd to say the least.
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I have often supported Dai, but I have always qualified it - if he wants to play a safety first foward orientated game with a ten deep in the pocket, solid set piece and a couple of fast wings added on for decoration, like putting go faster stripes on a tractor, then, frankly, he can go because it won't be successful and it isn't what I want to watch a Wasps team doing. It is often difficult to see what he wants, given what we have played like at different times over his tenure and the rotation and injury lists, so I am hoping that he wants to play with a ten in traffic, a mobile back row that effects turnovers and a set of forwards and backs who can interchange. I guess time will tell, but today is more worrying for the style than the performance. The scrum was fine, but I am forced to concur with many of the opinions above- it is a bit worrying to say the least.....
As for some of our decisions, yeah odd to say the least.
A very succinct summary WWW.
Dai has to think very hard about selection for next week, otherwise Castle Grim has the all the possibilities of being a be a horror show for us.
These are the match stats from ESPN.
https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/match?gameId=294862&league=267979
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At times we were our own worst enemy today, there were flashes of what a Wasps team can do from pretty much everyone, just nothing more than the odd flash unfortunately. Sopoaga had some nice link play with Fekitoa, but it only happened a couple of times, Watson butchered a walk in try if he had offloaded, JDJ was not happy! Still too often we allow the opposition to just run right through the defensive line, we lost some major yards a couple of times.
Shields and Willis were great at the breakdown, Willis in particular, Kibirigi showing how to finish and good to see Dan back running the show, I have ref-link and it was good to hear how much Dan was pushing JP Doyle, only time he didn't really was the slap down in the 2nd half that wasn't even looked at, even the BT Sport guys were commenting on it. We desperately need a 12, spoke to Jimmy very briefly before the match but he wasn't making any comment on when he would be back.
On the subject of BT Sport, did any of you see the point in the 2nd half where we had a scrum and they showed the attacking set-up on the big screen with highlighting specific players and showing running lines with arrows, I sit near the bench and the wasps staff were getting very animated about it with the BT Sport director who was on the radio to stop it happening again. Really poor form from BT and hope we don't see that again for any team!
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Maybe our crew thought "BT have a good idea, someone tell Dan Robson to cancel the ten minutes of inching the drinks cabinet one inch closer to Berlin". ;D
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Would someone with a better knowledge of the laws please tell me why, when Lima aimed what looked like a perfect cross field kick for Zach when we were under a penalty advantage and the LI full back (I think) batted it down with one hand, Doyle did not even seem to consider a yellow card and a possible penalty try? I know that wasn't why we got beat ;) but it would certainly have made a big difference.
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Or why when their player was carded for collapsing a maul on their try line after a series of other infringements it was deemed serious enough for a card, but not a penalty try?
Or why Doyle didn’t penalise Lima when the Irish FB went diving back on a kick and wasn’t allowed to get up before Lima went straight over the top.
Lots of seemingly odd decisions, but then, often it seems that those watching on TV or with RefLink in don’t feel the same inconsistencies that those of us in the stands without RefLink tend to see/feel.
I guess Doyle’s refereeing probably wasn’t as bad as it seemed. I think our performance largely was though.
Part of me hoped that when Cips was spear-heading our attack that it was part Danny and part Blackett’s influence such that with Danny gone, we still might have the same fluidity or sharpness in attack.
I wonder how much Jimmy will make a difference to this. But it can’t be that we rely on Jimmy.
Fekitoa at 13 could be a weapon for a strike runner who can break the line - something that we’ve not had for a good while. We know that Watson, Bassett and Kibirige can finish if given the chance.
On paper, we should still be capable of scoring brilliant tries. But don’t seem to have the patterns or variation to do so.
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Agree with the points made about Wasps, but I won't be surprised if Irish upset a few sides this season, they seem a big team and played carefully and well.
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In-betweenwasp...
Lima didn't have to let him up. He can go and attack the ball with the player on the ground, providing he doesn't "tackle" the already grounded player.
I thought they'd look at the Blair Cowan pass that led to their winger running in from 50+ yards.
He definitely caught it in front of where Cowan was, and Cowan didn't have much momentum.
It probably was first given the way it's policed these days, but I thought it was debatable enough to check again
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Read a number of posts and glad to see the histrionics back on DW so quickly. I find it strange that posters on there dont know which of our players are injured and why. Hohum.
Yesterday was not a total disaster but came close. I got rid of my swearing on the long wet drive back.
Doyle - I happen to think (with ref-link) spent the whole first half coaching Irish on what they were doing wrong. When a ref does that he opens the door for all and sundry to complain, moan and point out crap. He had no control over the Irish commenting until late on when he lost his temper with Blair Cowan. Another point is we were pinged constantly not by Doyle but the touch judge. He saw us offside but in line with me missed two blatant Irish offside. Give Dan his due he kept pointing out transgressions as he saw them and only got a - I didn't see it or my team didn't report it - not good enough. How the hell they got away with thumping the ball forward when there was only one Wasp left outside I have no idea. Not even looked at which is a total disgrace. Also from my point of view and Irishman refereeing Irish should not have happened. To be honest he was the most Irish sounding out there.
Player wise - Zac wonderful going forward not too good in defence. We need a good constant destructive 12. That may be Fekitoa changing position who knows. If we could have 15 Jack Willis on the pitch we might frighten people. I thought Lima had an ok game but don't think Dan was firing too smartly.
Not sure about Jeff TA yet but it is going to be a fun month or two listening to him get in the ear of the refs. Told yesterday that "We don't do that up here" by Doyle. He is enthusiastic so is welcome.
Anyone who wants to have a go at Lima please watch the Mental Health video Wasps put on Twitter and platforms last week.
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I can't remember if it has been tried before but has Sops played 12 with Billy at 10? I would like to see this being played, even for the last quarter of a match to see how he copes
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I may have got this wrong -but the most bizarre Doyle call was for Bassett "in at the side" when he was the player tackled....first half towards right touchline
But, its no excuse for performing like we'd not met before.
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I thought their try off a lineout involved a pass 2-3 metres forward. No-one mentioned it in commentary, I suspect because it was against their narrative of the game [plucky Irish etc].
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Anyone who wants to have a go at Lima please watch the Mental Health video Wasps put on Twitter and platforms last week.
Whilst no one appears to be having a go I see no correlation to someone performing way below their bar to a video of a broader subject. I'll quote that video to my boss when I put my feet up for a year or so, see if he's ok with it.
Think you should keep statements like that for the Sermon thread.
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The Worcester match was a bit like watching a Wasps tribute act for the first half, but seemed to come good in the second.
The LI match was depressing because of a lack of game intelligence, and some individual bloopers, but watching it back once I got home I though the performance seems better that what I saw at the Ricoh and large parts of the play seemed pretty good/getting there, just interspersed with disjointed stuff that blew it.
There were a few odd calls, notably how that intentional knock-on that prevented a try was not looked at, and how Bassett could have a line out against him when he was not holding the ball when his foot went out, to name a couple.
What confused me was how they could be on top of us immediately at every breakdown and be on-side, and Wasps get getting pinged for being off-side. Either JP is biased against us, and the commentators were keeping quiet about it, or we have a couple of training issues on that score.
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It was good that the players can round the pitch at the end though. Whatever our gripes, and the result, they are our team and (from my point of view) doing things I could only dream of, and I applaud that they came round than just scuttled back down the tunnel.
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Are rules different for knock ons from kicks than passes?
Obviously you can charge down a kick so there's definitely some variation in the rules
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It is not a knock on if "A player knocks the ball forward immediately after an opponent has kicked it (charge down).", not sure what constitutes "immediate".
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The incident in Saturday was obviously not immediate regardless of the definition.
However, yellow card laws / interpretations may differ too
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Plenty of knock ons given at re-starts. I don't really like the deliberate knock on rule/law, but hard to see why it wasn't applied given that he desperately batted the kick pass ball away using one hand, preventing a try.
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Don't disagree about the reffing but I don't think we can pretend that we lost because of Doyle. We butchered at least three tries and were really not clinical enough especially in the second half. Our lineout didn't function and we made poor decisions.
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Don't disagree about the reffing but I don't think we can pretend that we lost because of Doyle. We butchered at least three tries and were really not clinical enough especially in the second half. Our lineout didn't function and we made poor decisions.
Well, had he given the deliberate knock on we'd have won by 4 points ..but agree we should have performed better an not relied on a ref doing his job properly.
Trouble is, there is very little between the teams playing in this league and if decisions are made that are blatantly wrong then your going to lose. Sometimes, the difference between the sides is as much and as little as the man in the middle and that's just the sad fact. He has a history of being a shitty ref and it needs to change...this isn't the first time. We lost to Tigers last season because of this guy, so this isn't a one off.
Not every team has 20 tries in there pockets.
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That Tigers match disallowed try was nothing compared to the 2 from yesterday.
With the Tigers match I never saw grounding. But yesterday it was a blatant deliberate knock on and yellow card which should've led to a penalty try.
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Well, had he given the deliberate knock on we'd have won by 4 points
And their FB would have been off the field for 10 minutes.
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Just watched the match and it's pretty depressing stuff if you take the unbelievable Willis out of the equation. Same old Wasps hopelessness at mauls, both attacking and defending. Why can we never seem to improve at mauls? We've been terrible at them for years. At the risk of singling individuals out, Kibirige was good and bad, same for Watson. Bassett's best days are prob behind him (and I was a big fan) and I still haven't seen a single moment from Sopoanga that's made me think yup, we've got a serious talent there.
Early days but I fear it's gonna be a tough old season for Wasps fans. Soz for the negativity and all that but it was Irish at home after all.
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Sadly I agree with you Beasties. Willis on his own was a one man ruck machine. If he or YY isn't on the pitch then we're going to find ourselves under a lot of pressure.
That was probably (injuries aside) our best matchday squad and yet we lost at home to a newly promoted team who have a lot of talent still to arrive.
I haven't seen any other games so can't comment on whether the other teams have struggled in the first game.
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I was at Sale for the Gloucester game and yes we were dire in the first half very ring rusty. Almost frightened to get stuck in a bit like pre-season so called 'full contact'. Turned around in the second half
Watched the Wasps highlights last night and it looked a better game than folks returning from the game had suggested. You were definitely reffed against by JP, who I used to rate, but is now so full of his own importance he is the only decision maker on the park (he ran the the touch at Sale and was continuously interfering with Andrew Jackson's decisions but ignoring his own job of watching the offside line!)
Worst of all for me was the forward pass for the Irish last try which made all of the difference ateotd he didn't even go to review it.
At 3.30 on the clip below.
Looking forward to some of you making it to Kingsholm....I think your tactics will have to involve coming out of the blocks fast and try to knock us out dead in the first half...like last year but better.
https://youtu.be/WQ9MvjxBRAE?t=208 (https://youtu.be/WQ9MvjxBRAE?t=208)
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How's Danny's elbow? Of course we are all concerned for him ;)
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Worst of all for me was the forward pass for the Irish last try which made all of the difference ateotd he didn't even go to review it.
https://youtu.be/WQ9MvjxBRAE?t=208 (https://youtu.be/WQ9MvjxBRAE?t=208)
Back to the old debate of what constitues a forward pass. Just because a ball travels forward doesn't mean its a forward pass.. (let see who bites).
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Worst of all for me was the forward pass for the Irish last try which made all of the difference ateotd he didn't even go to review it.
https://youtu.be/WQ9MvjxBRAE?t=208 (https://youtu.be/WQ9MvjxBRAE?t=208)
Back to the old debate of what constitues a forward pass. Just because a ball travels forward doesn't mean its a forward pass.. (let see who bites).
I agree, but not to even have a review on a such an important try? I do think Wasps are missing a real on field leader, someone who can drag the team, the fans and officials over the line in a close game. No names of those i've loathed respected in the past ;)
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I watched recordings of the full match back to back after both RWC matches. What struck me immediately was the abysmal standard of refereeing by JP compared to RWC.
It was the tackle and breakdown where this was most obvious. He was so slow calling tackle when a players knee went to ground and he allowed the breakdown to be a mess by not pinging players hanging on or interfering when not entitled to, which prevented quick or clean ball.
Jack Willis aside, Wasps were terrible at dealing with this. We lacked numbers to secure the ball when we had it. Our goal line attack also lacked penetration because we had 1 or 2 players going on their own with ineffective support. Once stopped they were easier to turn over.
Our defensive line speed was quite good and the touch judge called offside a few times early on when our timing may not have been spot on. As the game progressed this was policed less and Irish benefited.
JP should have referred to TMO for the deliberate knock on. On TV replay was obviously pen try and yellow card. Similarly the last Irish try may have been a forward pass but no review.
Saying all that, Watson butchered a try and Dobbie wasn't sharp at the breakdown despite his try.
The last Irish try summed it up. We had the ball and lost it at a breakdown. Then couldn't get in position to defend properly. Kibirige was on the left wing in that attack and the right wing was covered by a forward, Ogre I think. As the ball moved across the field Basset or Watson failed to fill in. Ogre then attacked the inside man leaving the wing exposed. Unfortunately, De Jongh should have looped him to provide more pace on the outside but stayed where he was leaving a run in for Irish. Completely preventable.
Basic conclusion is Irish were more savvy, Wasps decision making was poor and JP should be pensioned off as he is useless at this level.
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Pretty accurate conclusion on all three counts.
What can be done? It is still early doors.
Suggestions?
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The opposite of whats being done currently.
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Best summary Mellie. Well said.
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I think I watched a different game on TV!!
Watson: Has he played FB for us before? Did a decent job other than failing to pass for a certain try.
Kibirige: Took his 2 tries very well and almost a third. Wasn’t the only defender missing when Irish scored their long-range try.
Lima: I guess he will never please those who STILL lament for Cipriani. I thought he had a decent game. We can almost count on 100% successful kicks.
Robson: Not bad. Still needs to get back to playing regularly.
Front row: Has anyone criticised them:
Gaskell: How long has he been out? Usually a guaranteed good game
Fliment: He looks like a really good acquisition.
Willis: I think that was an average performance from him. Where average = outstanding.
We & other teams know what Doyle is like so why do people damage their blood pressure by saying the same things they have said before.
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PS Has our new No. 8 lost weight?
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We & other teams know what Doyle is like so why do people damage their blood pressure by saying the same things they have said before.
Erm...because he again cost us the game, just like the last game. I don't see LI complaining about his performance so it isn't 'other' teams. If it's acceptable to you then that's fine but for others it isn't so that's why.
As for your other call outs.
Robson is an Intl player and shouldn't need gametime on top of the longest pre season ever. Both his opposites outplayed him. His decision making for the 3 was frankly embarrassing.
Kilbrige did finish well but needs to up the defence at this level otherwise the finishes stand for nothing because points are all that matter...we lost again but its ok, the finishes were good. He wasn't the only one culpable though.
Lima was Lima, Cips is history, no need to even mention him..Lima did nothing wrong but nothing of note. No chips, no grubbers, no control, no creativity, basically just shipping it on much like I did at school. As an AB he's performing no better than Searle or Umaga...so flip a coin for a starter, i'll take Umaga. If thats a decent game for you we will remain bang average.
Watson has played FB before for us and Falcons, he didn't have to field a great deal so yes did ok in that regard, except for the small matter of butchering a try.
As well as LI showed up, the stark reality is that they are in all probability a bottom 2 side, losing at home just isn't on, now we have to go beat Sarries away to even it out.
Last season was tiring, I made excuse after excuse as to the poor results, always looking for some positives. I'm sad to say that based on this game it appears there was no break in the season, this could be a continuation of last season as if nothing had happened, and as such my frustration hasn't reset either.
I'm out of slack to cut.
If anyone saw the Bristol game, we should be very concerned that the 'weaker' teams are down to 2 and we were just beaten by one of them AT HOME!!!
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Cips is history, no need to even mention him.
So why?
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The line out was poor
when we tried to pick and go we struggled to make ground
Lima sits and passes too deep
Why do we go to sleep for periods of the game. For me Dai doesn't seem to get the players up for the game, so lethargic at times
we can't defend consistently.
For me the coaching set up is poor and the last 2 seasons we have brought in a lot of poor players into our squad and a lot of good players have left. Our front row is good, our back row is very good, Launchbury is fantastic, I like Dan Robson, Gopperth was awesome not sure how good he is now. The rest need to start to show a more consistent level, 1 in 3 games is not good enough. This is a professional sport now, play well or don't play. The thing is Dai goes for the name of the player and not how good he is playing
I'm sorry, I thought we would finish 8th this season, I'm very nervous of our prospects considering our first 5 games. We don't seem to learn from our constant mistakes
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Cips is history, no need to even mention him.
So why?
Lazy reading, try reading 2 entries up...there's your answer.
You're welcome.
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This thread is beginning to sound like the other one.
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Stick to reading and contributing to one then.
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The question I'd love answered is about Sopoaga. Is he being instructed to play so deep or is he just going there. It seems to be crippling our attack. Granted we are crying out for a distributing 12 but if we don't have one it's pointless playing as if we do.
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This thread is beginning to sound like the other one.
Feel free to contribute to the narrative - it's an open forum!
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Can we quit with the sniping posts please. We're all hurting after that game, but it doesn't help to be rude to each other.
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Can we quit with the sniping posts please. We're all hurting after that game, but it doesn't help to be rude to each other.
+1 it’s not necessary
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Plus one here as well.
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Can we quit with the sniping posts please. We're all hurting after that game, but it doesn't help to be rude to each other.
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With respect, that's over policing. Its a bit of bants at best.
While I don't want a DW site it can't be totally the other way, we should be allowed to have a certain amount of expression without having to hug each other after every comment surely? Otherwise this is no longer a forum of opinion and the site would be named agreementonlywasps.com I dont take offence to a snide comment based on someone not taking the time to read properly and feel it fine to set them straight for being lazy in that regard...I doubt they care either.
As far as I can tell no one is name calling or upsetting each other and we can reset on the next thread without any issue..and thats the important part. I have no opinion or bias towards/against anybody other than the conversation thats ongoing and feel that is objective enough.
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Can we quit with the sniping posts please. We're all hurting after that game, but it doesn't help to be rude to each other.
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With respect, that's over policing. Its a bit of bants at best.
While I don't want a DW site it can't be totally the other way, we should be allowed to have a certain amount of expression without having to hug each other after every comment surely? Otherwise this is no longer a forum of opinion and the site would be named agreementonlywasps.com I dont take offence to a snide comment based on someone not taking the time to read properly and feel it fine to set them straight for being lazy in that regard...I doubt they care either.
As far as I can tell no one is name calling or upsetting each other and we can reset on the next thread without any issue..and thats the important part. I have no opinion or bias towards/against anybody other than the conversation thats ongoing and feel that is objective enough.
Well said that man!