Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: andermt on September 02, 2020, 11:00:43 AM
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https://www.epcrugby.com/2020/09/02/new-epcr-tournament-formats-agreed-for-2020-21-season/
Champions Cup for 24 teams, top 8 from Premiership split into 4 tiers
2 pools of 12 teams
No repeats of domestic matches.
Tier 1 will play Tier 4 and Tier 2 will play Tier 3
This will end up with 4 matches, 2 home, 2 away.
Top 8 go through to the 1/4 finals for home & away
Next 8 go to Challenge cup in last 16 stage.
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interesting. so if Sarries were to win this seasons ERC, they would qualify as second best prem team of next years ERC....
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God they make it confusing. They initially proposed 8 groups of 3 playing home and away with 8 going forward to the Quarters - simple.
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I'm very confused!!
So, assuming Wasps make the top 8, which looks likely, do we play 4 different opponents, 2 home and 2 away, or the same 2 opponents both home and away?
It sounds a bit like the daft Anglo-Welsh Cup format of a few years ago where you are playing matches against teams that you are not actually competing against in your pool. Pool games will be pretty unexciting. Wake me up when the quarter finals come round!
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8 English teams in champions league... I have a problem with that.
In our league even the top 4 can be embarrassing in Europe (3rd and 4th), why extend it from 6 to 8? I really don't find Clermont battering Quins 60-3 entertaining. Just feels like teams after 4th place don't deserve it.
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God they make it confusing. They initially proposed 8 groups of 3 playing home and away with 8 going forward to the Quarters - simple.
Would've made so much more sense! Pool winners through to Champions Cup quarters; runners up into the Challenge Cup; last place get their BFH!
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Why are they constantly fucking with the system? and why have a two-legged QF? Utterly pointless. Less is more
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This makes it a little clearer:
https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/epcr/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/26163234/NEW-Heineken-Champions-Cup-Rules-for-2020-21.pdf
I will now try to answer some of my own questions which might help (or further confuse?) others!
So if we just take current league positions to provide an example of how things might pan out, bearing in mind France's qualifiers and seedings are already decided as they stopped their season back in March.
As with previous seasons, the actual rankings at the end of the season will be based on playoffs, so tier 1 will be the finalists and tier 2 the losing semi-finalists in the Prem and Pro14 regardless of league position.
Tier 1: Exeter / Sale + Bordeaux / Lyon + Leinster / Edinburgh
Tier 2: Bristol / Wasps + Racing / Toulon + Ulster / Munster
Tier 3: Bath / Saints + La Rochelle / Clermont + Scarlets / Glasgow
Tier 4: Quins / Glaws + Toulouse / Montpellier + Connacht / Dragons
Each tier then has 1 from each league drawn in pool A and the other from each league in pool B (with me so far?)
Pool matches are then tier 1 v tier 4 and tier 2 v tier 3, both home and away, but only against the teams from the other 2 leagues. So as things stand, Wasps's potential pool opponents would be either La Rochelle or Clermont plus either Scarlets or Dragons.
Will make for some potentially one sided pool games between the tier 1 and 4 teams, and in theory, pretty safe passage for the top seeds through to the quarters where they will again have a more favourable draw. The interesting games will be those between the tier 3 and 4 teams which will determine the rest of the quarter finalists. It all seems heavily weighted to favour the top seeds, so shall we just save a lot of messing about and give Leinster the trophy now??
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You will need to be a brain surgeon to work that lot out. As Peej, says why?
I thought the thinking was 4 pool matches H&A, QF, SF & F - 7 games for the finalists. They now add a H and A QF making 8. Looking at the concept, it is almost (although never definite!) certain to deliver the Euro heavyweights to the QFs and TV companies have said we want the H&A matches.
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I got a message or a link months ago indicating 8 per league with probably 8 groups of three home and away. To give fans an additional (!) Match they said for one year they would do home and away quarters. All change again. Not missed an away Euro for years but can't see much hope this year.
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Are we expecting too much? This is a Covid related change and yet another attempt at making the best of a bad situation. I assume this way travel is reduced slightly, as is in interaction.
Not great but i'm sure EPRC are doing their best.
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interesting. so if Sarries were to win this seasons ERC, they would qualify as second best prem team of next years ERC....
This year's QF will be a humdinger at the Aviva!
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Are we expecting too much? This is a Covid related change and yet another attempt at making the best of a bad situation. I assume this way travel is reduced slightly, as is in interaction.
Not great but i'm sure EPRC are doing their best.
I agree plus three League Committees to satisfy.
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Are we expecting too much? This is a Covid related change and yet another attempt at making the best of a bad situation. I assume this way travel is reduced slightly, as is in interaction.
Not great but i'm sure EPRC are doing their best.
Why not simplify it instead then? And it basically means we will have to have cross border travel in France, which I cannot see happening any time soon.
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Are we expecting too much? This is a Covid related change and yet another attempt at making the best of a bad situation. I assume this way travel is reduced slightly, as is in interaction.
Not great but i'm sure EPRC are doing their best.
I agree plus three League Committees to satisfy.
8 pools of 3, with a team from each league in each pool would have achieved exactly the same in terms of number of pool matches and been a whole lot easier to understand. As far as I can tell, the main difference between that and the 2x12 we've ended up with is that this allows the top seeds from each league to play only those that would ordinarily have found themselves in the Challenge Cup, thereby giving them a nice easy route through and allowing them to rotate their squads against weaker opposition while those in the middle have to scrap it out for the remaining quarter final places.
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I suspect the answer is somewhere in between the Pro14, Top 14, PRL, ERC and the three TV Companies. A complete mash up!
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Are we expecting too much? This is a Covid related change and yet another attempt at making the best of a bad situation. I assume this way travel is reduced slightly, as is in interaction.
Not great but i'm sure EPRC are doing their best.
Why not simplify it instead then? And it basically means we will have to have cross border travel in France, which I cannot see happening any time soon.
How do you avoid cross border travel in a Champions Cup. Smaller pools equals less travel and exposure.
Some people are bothered about it some aren't, can't please everyone, such is life.
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For me, if I've understood correctly, the main issue is that it's in effect a league contested by teams who all play different people. Not really a level playing field. But I suppose after our start I'm just glad to be in it whatever it is.
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Having wasted my lunch break trying to figure out the two tiered, 14 team Challenge Cup fixtures, where one Premiership side and one Pro14 side will play two French clubs and the rest, including all French clubs will play two sides from both differing leagues to their own (I've concluded that this isn't possible and I will applaud EPCR if they actually manage it) the Champions Cup format is relatively simple...
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Having wasted my lunch break trying to figure out the two tiered, 14 team Challenge Cup fixtures, where one Premiership side and one Pro14 side will play two French clubs and the rest, including all French clubs will play two sides from both differing leagues to their own (I've concluded that this isn't possible and I will applaud EPCR if they actually manage it) the Champions Cup format is relatively simple...
I’m reminded of this famous quote:
“ The Schleswig-Holstein question is so complicated, only three men in Europe have ever understood it. One was Prince Albert, who is dead. The second was a German professor who became mad. I am the third and I have forgotten all about it.”
When it was explained to me I understood it, for about 30 seconds.
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Having wasted my lunch break trying to figure out the two tiered, 14 team Challenge Cup fixtures, where one Premiership side and one Pro14 side will play two French clubs and the rest, including all French clubs will play two sides from both differing leagues to their own (I've concluded that this isn't possible and I will applaud EPCR if they actually manage it) the Champions Cup format is relatively simple...
I’m reminded of this famous quote:
“ The Schleswig-Holstein question is so complicated, only three men in Europe have ever understood it. One was Prince Albert, who is dead. The second was a German professor who became mad. I am the third and I have forgotten all about it.”
When it was explained to me I understood it, for about 30 seconds.
It must have been Bismarck
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No, I am wrong: it was Palmerston.
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The draw is today, although EPCR haven't said when. It will be streamed on the Champions Cup social media channels (Facebook, Twitter and YouTube).
We're in Tier 1 and will be drawn to play either Dragons or Glasgow and Montpellier or Toulouse.
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If they intend to stream it live they obviously want an audience. However if they don't announce a time will they expect everyone to be sitting, with baited breath, watching all day?
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Draw is at 3pm according to Irish press over there.
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Also confirmed by BB as 3pm
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We have Dragons and Montpellier
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Always fancied a weekend in Montpellier. So naturally it'll be when we're unable to go...
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Montpellier site saying they have Wasps and Leinster! That is impossible as we and Leinster are Tier 1.
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POOL A (with opponents in brackets)
Bordeaux-Bègles (Dragons, Northampton Saints)
Leinster Rugby (Montpellier, Northampton Saints)
Wasps (Dragons, Montpellier)
Bath Rugby (La Rochelle, Scarlets)
Edinburgh Rugby (La Rochelle, Sale Sharks)
RC Toulon (Sale Sharks, Scarlets)
La Rochelle (Bath Rugby, Edinburgh Rugby)
Sale Sharks (Edinburgh Rugby, RC Toulon)
Scarlets (Bath Rugby, RC Toulon)
Dragons (Bordeaux-Bègles, Wasps)
Montpellier (Leinster Rugby, Wasps)
Northampton Saints (Bordeaux-Bègles, Leinster Rugby)
POOL B (with opponents in brackets)
Exeter Chiefs (Glasgow Warriors, Toulouse)
Lyon (Glasgow Warriors, Gloucester Rugby)
Ulster Rugby (Gloucester Rugby, Toulouse)
Bristol Bears (ASM Clermont Auvergne, Connacht Rugby)
Munster Rugby (ASM Clermont Auvergne, Harlequins)
Racing 92 (Connacht Rugby, Harlequins)
ASM Clermont Auvergne (Bristol Bears, Munster Rugby)
Connacht Rugby (Bristol Bears, Racing 92)
Harlequins (Munster Rugby, Racing 92)
Glasgow Warriors (Exeter Chiefs, Lyon)
Gloucester Rugby (Lyon, Ulster)
Toulouse (Exeter Chiefs, Ulster Rugby)
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Happy with those two if they are who we have
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And for the sake of clarity 🙄
POOL A (with opponents in brackets)
Bordeaux-Bègles (Dragons, Northampton Saints)
Leinster Rugby (Montpellier, Northampton Saints)
Wasps (Dragons, Montpellier)
Bath Rugby (La Rochelle, Scarlets)
Edinburgh Rugby (La Rochelle, Sale Sharks)
RC Toulon (Sale Sharks, Scarlets)
La Rochelle (Bath Rugby, Edinburgh Rugby)
Sale Sharks (Edinburgh Rugby, RC Toulon)
Scarlets (Bath Rugby, RC Toulon)
Dragons (Bordeaux-Bègles, Wasps)
Montpellier (Leinster Rugby, Wasps)
Northampton Saints (Bordeaux-Bègles, Leinster Rugby)
POOL B (with opponents in brackets)
Exeter Chiefs (Glasgow Warriors, Toulouse)
Lyon (Glasgow Warriors, Gloucester Rugby)
Ulster Rugby (Gloucester Rugby, Toulouse)
Bristol Bears (ASM Clermont Auvergne, Connacht Rugby)
Munster Rugby (ASM Clermont Auvergne, Harlequins)
Racing 92 (Connacht Rugby, Harlequins)
ASM Clermont Auvergne (Bristol Bears, Munster Rugby)
Connacht Rugby (Bristol Bears, Racing 92)
Harlequins (Munster Rugby, Racing 92)
Glasgow Warriors (Exeter Chiefs, Lyon)
Gloucester Rugby (Lyon, Ulster)
Toulouse (Exeter Chiefs, Ulster Rugby)
Round 1 – 11/12/13 December 2020
Round 2 – 18/19/20 December 2020
Round 3 – 15/16/17 January 2021
Round 4 – 22/23/24 January 2021
So we're up against Bordeaux and Leinster as top seeds in the pool. (But we play neither of them!)
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Just realised that it’s a joke structure to the pools - Wasps play MHR and Dragons. MHR play Wasps and Leinster. Etc...............
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POOL A (with opponents in brackets)
Bordeaux-Bègles (Dragons, Northampton Saints)
Leinster Rugby (Montpellier, Northampton Saints)
Wasps (Dragons, Montpellier)
Bath Rugby (La Rochelle, Scarlets)
Edinburgh Rugby (La Rochelle, Sale Sharks)
RC Toulon (Sale Sharks, Scarlets)
La Rochelle (Bath Rugby, Edinburgh Rugby)
Sale Sharks (Edinburgh Rugby, RC Toulon)
Scarlets (Bath Rugby, RC Toulon)
Dragons (Bordeaux-Bègles, Wasps)
Montpellier (Leinster Rugby, Wasps)
Northampton Saints (Bordeaux-Bègles, Leinster Rugby)
POOL B (with opponents in brackets)
Exeter Chiefs (Glasgow Warriors, Toulouse)
Lyon (Glasgow Warriors, Gloucester Rugby)
Ulster Rugby (Gloucester Rugby, Toulouse)
Bristol Bears (ASM Clermont Auvergne, Connacht Rugby)
Munster Rugby (ASM Clermont Auvergne, Harlequins)
Racing 92 (Connacht Rugby, Harlequins)
ASM Clermont Auvergne (Bristol Bears, Munster Rugby)
Connacht Rugby (Bristol Bears, Racing 92)
Harlequins (Munster Rugby, Racing 92)
Glasgow Warriors (Exeter Chiefs, Lyon)
Gloucester Rugby (Lyon, Ulster)
Toulouse (Exeter Chiefs, Ulster Rugby)
Wait, what?
*Checks tournament rules*
WHAT?!
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Montpellier site saying they have Wasps and Leinster! That is impossible as we and Leinster are Tier 1.
No, that's exactly right. As tier 1 we have earned the right to play our poll games against tier 4 opponents. Montpellier, as tier 4 have to slug it out with 2 tier 1 teams in Wasps and Leinster. Dragons play Wasps and Bordeaux, Northampton play Bordeaux and Leinster.
I am tolerating this format only because it was born out of necessity, in some haste and seemingly very late at night when all the brandy had run out.
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France could be a problem as they are going into national lockdown on Friday until at least the end of November.
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Montpellier site saying they have Wasps and Leinster! That is impossible as we and Leinster are Tier 1.
No, that's exactly right. As tier 1 we have earned the right to play our poll games against tier 4 opponents. Montpellier, as tier 4 have to slug it out with 2 tier 1 teams in Wasps and Leinster. Dragons play Wasps and Bordeaux, Northampton play Bordeaux and Leinster.
I am tolerating this format only because it was born out of necessity, in some haste and seemingly very late at night when all the brandy had run out.
So basically it is a way to ensure that the top teams go through, unless there's an upset, whilst ensuring the lower level teams eg 7&8 in our league get some additional games and revenue, even if its only TV revenue and not fans?