Always a Wasp

Really sorry to see Andrea leave but as everyone is saying, it was inevitable he would look to step up in his coaching career. (I hope that is the only reason he's leaving and it's nothing to do with Brexit b******t). I was delighted when we first signed him, he always stood out playing for Italy and he most certainly did not disappoint in a Wasp shirt. VV thanks for the reminder of the hit on Waldron, fabulous moment. One of the downsides of the move to Coventry was the disruption to the Academy but with Andrea's involvement it is once again proving to be invaluable in bringing young players through and the standard of those players is astonishing. It's been great for the club to not have to rely on the revolving door of expensive overseas players.

Best of luck Andrea, don't forget, "Once a Wasp..."

Youngs' almost annoyingly, was actually quite good at the end of the autumn nations cup. Odd that it grates when he has decent games, especially when he failed to have one in the world cup final (christ that was dire, moreso than usual).

Youngs was good in the Autumn because he plays the game that EJ wants to see extremely well. If you're going to kick the leather off the ball for 80 minutes, Youngs is your man. The fact that he's slow to get the ball away at the breakdown and has no pace is utterly irrelevant. You come badly unstuck when your forward dominance doesn't materialise and you have no plan B, the World Cup final being the classic example when Faf De Klerk handed him a lesson in how to play at 9. Plan B SHOULD be to play heads-up rugby, attack with pace and variety, exactly what Dobby is superb at and Youngs is so dreadful. The problem for England is that the dull kicking game is so ingrained that few in the squad are on Dobby's wavelength because he doesn't get enough game time. Sooner or later England will lose an international, Dobby will get his usual 5 minutes and as he is on the pitch at the final whistle EJ will blame him and use that to justify continuing to pick Youngs.

IMHO it's a real shame that Youngs excellent international career is going to come to an end with so many disliking him because he should have been dropped two seasons ago. Not his fault.   

I wonder if there's been a bit of a problem with Nick Evans moving in to coaching and some of the older players not taking to it too well? I don't think Nick would be the problem but it is something some senior players are known to have problems with at all clubs where this happens.

I'm struggling to remember ANY cases where a much respected player has moved to a senior coach at his own club and made a success of it. It's not working well for Hooper at Bath. Really didn't go well for Murphy at Tigers. It's so often a recipe for tarnishing the reputation of a much loved player. Did Baxter immediately become head coach on retiring from playing or gradually get moved up the pecking order? In any case, he became head coach in the Championship which doesn't carry the same pressures as the Premiership. Any other examples I have overlooked?

Regarding Smith, no questioning his outstanding individual skill so his show reel looks very impressive, but I'm not convinced that he is better at Umaga at running a game. Jacob is young and still learning so there'll be the occasional brain fart and off game but I'd much rather have him in a Wasps shirt than Smith looking to the future.

I was also looking at Redpaths try, you're right that the highlights don't show enough of the build-up but actually those other examples also show that Jacob is dropping back alongside Lima. I'm tempted to look back at previous games to see if it's a new thing or we've always done it and I've only just noticed it as Lima's defence is somewhat under the microscope at the moment

I might be inclined to try something radical, like:

Robson
Umaga
Fekitoa
Odogwu

Bassett
Kibirige
Minozzi

And on the bench

Porter
de Jongh
Sopoaga

Can you imagine how a team might want to line up its defense against that lot? If they try to double team Umaga with backs, and he shifts it to Fekitoa, you are going to want two or 3 backs on him, but if he commits them and shifts it to Odogwu, then how many more will you need there? Which would leave Bassett and Kibirige to do what they do best and motor down the outside.

It would force a team into a fast flat defence full of backs and back rowers, meaning there will be the space directly behind them for Umaga to dink over and in to. If the full back covers this, then a deep kick would go over him.

And would you want to kick for defense or attack knowing you could be giving it to any of these backs of ours?

Who's going to take kicks? Jacob is a reasonable kicker but is not at the same percentage as Gopps (at his best) or Lima. He also seems to play better without the added responsibility of taking kicks

Quote from: Nigel Med on January 10, 2021, 12:32:12 PM

Then to make it look vaguely legal adopt a sort of press-up position supporting their weight with their arms, they are still clearly off their feet but it's supposed to fool referees into making it look like they attempted to stay upright.

I'm confused how a player attempting to jackal that places hands on the ground beyond the ball to scoop it up is always penalised for not being on their feet yet many players in rucks on all fours not bound to anyone with the ball behind them and obstructing the opposition from legally rucking are not.

It is rather confusing. By the letter of the law if a jackaling player touches the ground his is off his feet but that's clearly unfair if he's supporting his weight with his feet and it genuinely attempting to pick the ball up which he's perfectly entitled to do if he's the first person on his feet to the breakdown. What referees are supposed to look for is the position of the players hips in relation to his feet. If they're directly above his feet he is definitely supporting his own weight, if his hips are beyond his feet he must be supporting some of his weight with his arms therefore he cannot legally pick the ball up. Very difficult to make that judgement in a split second and as I think it was Austin Healy mentioned on Friday night, it doesn't take into account the ridiculous athletic ability of players like Jack Willis who can get into the most incredible positions whilst still supporting his own weight.

It would of course make it far easier for referees to make that judgement if there were no defending players off their feet getting in the way. I was livid at the penalty awarded to Chiefs in the Prem final just before half time. Scores were level at the time, Joe got to a breakdown and was unquestionable on his feet. There were several Chiefs players present, not one on their feet but Joe got pinged. I've watched it several times and I'm baffled, it was clearly not a ruck. Joe looked very unimpressed to put it mildly.

Exeter are not alone in securing ball at the breakdown by going off heir feet, they're just better coached at doing it. The first player or two arriving at the breakdown will go straight off their feet and then to make it look vaguely legal adopt a sort of press-up position supporting their weight with their arms, they are still clearly off their feet but it's supposed to fool referees into making it look like they attempted to stay upright.

Then you've got those "clearing out" once opposition players have arrived. Clearing out is illegal, it breaks several laws; Law 15.5 "An arriving player must be on their feet". Law 15.7 "A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body." Flying off your feet at an opposition player fails to meet both of these laws so should be penalised quite apart from Law 9.11. "Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others".

One of the basic principals of the game is that it is played by players on their feet, once you're off your feet you're out of the game. I appreciate that at lower levels of amateur rugby it's not going to happen but are you telling me that supremely fit professionals are unable to stay on their feet? If they were penalised every time they'd soon stop. The big problem for referees is that you don't penalise every offence only those that have a material effect; if a plater is tackled and two of his team mates dive off their feet but there are no opposition players challenging to the ball they've gained no advantage, no material effect, play on. If Jack Willis is quick to the ball and in his trade mark "Jackling" position it should be a penalty. Ping players every time for going straight off their feet and they'll stop doing it and breakdowns will become a far clearer, fair challenge for the ball which is that they should be. Far safer and easier to referee into the bargain. It will mean a further shift in playing styles and coaching and won't suit every team but it would make for a very exciting, fast flowing game. Speed, strength and technique gets rewarded whether you're in attack or defence. That's what rugby should be all about, at the moment it's still "How can we bend the laws as much as possible to get an advantage"