Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: wycombewasp on August 12, 2023, 07:43:35 PM
-
what a bunch of second rate players, beat wales by 2 points and think their the bees knees, OF a liability, the only player with any credit and it pains me to say it was Elliot Daly
-
Owen Farrell red carded for unnecessary high tackle due to atrocious tackle technique. In other breaking news, day follows night.
Given previous poor disciplinary record, ban should be around 10 matches, Farrell has said he?s very sorry, helps little old ladies cross the road and of course places for Saracens therefore expected ban to be 1 match
-
Apparent maximum 6 weeks.
Last occurrence in Jan a 4 weeks ban reduced to 3 for old lady work (course). This reduction apparently cannot be repeated so has to be 6 weeks straight.
-
Another dreary performance but rather surprisingly OF was playing OK until he got carded. If he gets away with the standard ban after what happened with Sexton the authorities should be brought up for brining the game in to disrepute.
Steward was a tad lucky to get away with a yellow as well.
The Saracens contingent were up to their usual in your face celebrations when the opposition made mistakes, they really are an unpleasant bunch.
I've really no idea why I sat through that.
-
6 weeks or 6 "meaningful" games?
Borthwick hastily arranging 4 additional (very significant) warm up games against Saracens 3rd XV.
-
Apparent maximum 6 weeks.
Last occurrence in Jan a 4 weeks ban reduced to 3 for old lady work (course). This reduction apparently cannot be repeated so has to be 6 weeks straight.
As a minimum.
I presume its now too late to drop him from the squad?
-
Wales couldn't catch a lineout and nearly won..
-
Apparent maximum 6 weeks.
Last occurrence in Jan a 4 weeks ban reduced to 3 for old lady work (course). This reduction apparently cannot be repeated so has to be 6 weeks straight.
As a minimum.
I presume its now too late to drop him from the squad?
If he get's 6 weeks - which he should goven his 4 weeks for the same offence earlier this year} his RWC is over as England will not qualify from the group.
-
Apparent maximum 6 weeks.
Last occurrence in Jan a 4 weeks ban reduced to 3 for old lady work (course). This reduction apparently cannot be repeated so has to be 6 weeks straight.
As a minimum.
I presume its now too late to drop him from the squad?
If he get's 6 weeks - which he should goven his 4 weeks for the same offence earlier this year} his RWC is over as England will not qualify from the group.
-
Apparent maximum 6 weeks.
Last occurrence in Jan a 4 weeks ban reduced to 3 for old lady work (course). This reduction apparently cannot be repeated so has to be 6 weeks straight.
As a minimum.
I presume its now too late to drop him from the squad?
If he get's 6 weeks - which he should goven his 4 weeks for the same offence earlier this year} his RWC is over as England will not qualify from the group.
Don't think he will if recent Fagerson precedent is followed, he was allowed technique school again for a repeat offence.
-
If he got a ban in January, went to school and still "tackles" like that then either he's an idiot, a thug or the naughty boy course he went on was rubbish.
-
If he got a ban in January, went to school and still "tackles" like that then either he's an idiot, a thug or the naughty boy course he went on was rubbish.
Or you can't teach an old dog new tricks. When you're mentally and physically tired the brain reverts to what it knows to conserve energy.
That's why when a professional golfer changes something major in their swing they disappear for 3 months and just hit 1000s of golf balls. If you want a seasoned rugby player to change something as ingrained as Farrell's tackling technique it will take more than a few days with a coach.
-
..... in which he should be dropped. (I won't suggest from what he should be dropped, nor the height)
-
If he got a ban in January, went to school and still "tackles" like that then either he's an idiot, a thug or the naughty boy course he went on was rubbish.
I suspect all 3.
-
I remember susoecting that Geech was a not very good selector for a while. I always thought he was respected for being a top bloke with integrity, a good motivator and one who had longevity, having faced a lot of uphill struggles in his career, and that he had taken a Wasps team pre made as successful by Warren and overseen its slow, managed decline as players got older, extracting what he could from the memory banks.
Then I read his laudation of Farrell as the 'ultimate test match animal' and I knew that I was right. The phrase is arsenic, and the moment it is out something fishy is up, and it is only used to justify the unjustifiable selection wise. It's the equivalent of Eddies' gut or the 'hunger I see in the eyes.' type phrases, also used about Faz. Bollocks ' hunger in the eyes', it is performances on the pitch, end of.
This test match animal stuff is normally bought up to justify someone being selected who isn't as good as someone else or who is horribly out of form/recovering from injury with no games behind them. It I always a sign of weakness. Farrell has a lot of coaches select him and justifiably so with his previously reliable boot, until the last four to five years where his limitations have become increasingly apparent- the same way he speaks to refs, the same tackle issues, the lack of vision and his snuff movie approach to creativity. Deciding you want Farrell over Fiver because you want limited winning rugby and have a pack to do it? Fazball it is, that's fine. I wouldn't like it myself because winning limited rugby turns into limited losing rugby the moment the pack creaks, but its fine in and of itself. However, we haven't had that pack for a while, and we long since past the point where Farrell should have been anything other than a bench option for when we are 20 points up with 30 to play and some conservatism is needed. Frankly I am not even sure then, given his inability to control himself. T Cup and all that phraseology aside, he doesn't keep his head and frankly has gotten away with more than he should based on his position. I suspect 2003 Woodward would not have stood by him, and yeah, it is easy for people to snipe from the sidelines, but if we can't work out now that Fazball isn't winning, we never will.
-
I agree. I have always despised the 'test match animal' comment. I wonder whether the Lions won in 97 because of Telfer rather than Geech: it was also a great squad.
Remember that the Wasps squad up until 2011 still had Shaun Edwards as head coach. Geech may have attracted a few players like Rafa, Tom Palmer, Reddan, Flutey. It was Shaun who put them together.
-
I wonder how much this is costing English rugby? Waste of money in my opinion. English rugby would be better off without him entirely.
Article in the Telegraph.
Owen Farrell's fate lies in the hands of one of UK's master silks
England will call on one of the best barristers in the UK to defend Farrell at his disciplinary hearing on Tuesday
Owen Farrell?s fate - and potentially England?s World Cup hopes - will be left in the hands of one of the country?s top silks at a disciplinary hearing on Tuesday.
Richard Smith KC, a veteran of five World Cups, three British and Irish Lions tours is described as the country?s ?pre-eminent rugby barrister? as well as one of the UK?s ?most senior serious crime lawyers?. He is tasked with defending the England captain in a virtual meeting after his sending-off for a dangerous high tackle in the 19-17 victory over Wales at Twickenham on Saturday.
Farrell is facing up to a six-game ban which would rule him out of the group stages at next month?s tournament in France.
Described by Guildhall Chambers and Partners as a barrister who ?achieves incredible results from seemingly impossible situations?, Smith successfully reduced Farrell?s last six-game ban for an illegal tackle while on duty with Saracens down to three games. On that occasion in January, Farrell?s ban was reduced from six to four after he pleaded guilty, then from four to three weeks because he attended ?tackle school? ? however, a player cannot do so twice.
?He has a deep knowledge of the sport and understanding of the regulatory regime,? reads Smith?s profile on Guildhall Chambers. ?He is always a master of his brief, in command of the relevant law and persuasive.?
Smith?s involvement with England stretches back to 2003, when he was enlisted by World Cup-winning coach Sir Clive Woodward - the first time a KC (then QC) had been associated with an international rugby team. Smith represented the union during the 16-man, pool-stage controversy against Samoa at the 2003 World Cup and, more recently, in 2011 when Dylan Hartley, Chris Ashton and James Haskell were accused by a Dunedin hotel worker of lewd behaviour. He also advised both the England players and Rugby Football Union when, in 2009, the squad fell victim to a potential ?sting? operation in Auckland which led to inquiries into alleged rape.
This year, Smith managed to overturn Henry Slade?s red card, issued to the centre in Exeter?s trip to the Bulls in the Champions Cup, and he was free to represent England in the Six Nations.
On Saturday, Farrell initially received a yellow card from referee Nika Amashukeli for a tackle on Taine Basham, with the England captain appearing to tuck his arm, catching the back-rower in the face with his shoulder. Basham did not return to the game after the tackle and Farrell?s card was upgraded to red by the Television Match Official in the newly established ?bunker?.
It is now up to Smith to ensure that Farrell receives as lenient a tariff as possible on Tuesday, with only two warm-up matches remaining before England?s opening group game against Argentina on Sept 9, followed by Japan, Chile and Samoa.
Farrell is likely, once again, to receive a six-match ban for the sending-off, with the degree of mitigation to determine how much of a leading role he is able to play in the tournament. If Farrell pleads guilty as he did in January, which is likely, then one week will automatically be removed for a guilty plea and remorse. That drops the England captain down to five matches, perhaps, even four, with a wholehearted apology.
Realistically, due to Farrell?s lack of eligibility for tackle school, the ban is either going to be four or five games. The rub for Smith is whether he can convince the all-Australian disciplinary panel that Farrell is not a seriel offender. This was the fly-half?s first red card on the international stage but the proximity of his previous offence - in January this year - means that the panel could consider him a repeat culprit.
The panel also have the authority to add a week on for aggravating factors: this would be Farrell?s third ban in three years. The ban that Farrell received for his 2016 tackle on Andr? Esterhuizen against South Africa at Twickenham was disregarded by the panel ?due to its age?. It is expected that that precedent will continue on Tuesday.
After the match on Saturday, Borthwick would not be drawn on hypotheticals surrounding fly-half depth or the captaincy in the event that Farrell does receive a lengthy ban.
?Let?s wait and see what happens. We?ll know about that in a few days, so we?ll be able to talk about that after,? the head coach said. ?I?m not going to comment until [Farrell?s] got through his disciplinary... Once I have all the facts, I?ll deal with the situation.?
-
On Saturday, Farrell initially received a yellow card from referee Nika Amashukeli
I?ve read this point about an initial yellow a couple of times and it?s misleading, at best. It wasn?t a yellow that was then changed, it was red that was downgraded in case the ref missed something.
Nika, who I thought had a good game and is fast becoming a top ref, wanted to get on with the game and used the new protocol rather than spend time looking at replays. On past protocols he?d have gone to red: to the head, high of danger, no discussion.
-
For once a change that makes sense. Review the footage in a reasonable amount of time without the pressure of being on the spot and watched by thousands of people, with players trying to get into your head.
-
They might try to get it heard under a different offence which would then disregard prior offences and possibly make him eligible for naughty boy school again, looks like that is what Scotland did with Fagerson according to this article.
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/scotland-entitled-to-breathe-huge-sigh-of-relief-over-zander-fagerson-verdict-4249605
-
Sadly I think we are now all aware of two key facts.
Borthwick is a useless one dimensional coach whose prime quality is not being as big a bullshit merchant as Eddie, and Farrell is a totally past his best, over the hill player who retains all his faults and has lost most of his qualities, a man who is not the best 10 in England, and has never been, but whose conservative game has been exactly what England wanted when they had a pack to win matches, a situation that past some while ago. An injury for Farrell is the only thing that will put him out of the WC, given the record of all disciplinary sanctions pre WC, and especially as England's opponents will be scared of Smith at ten more than Farrell. If he does get a proper ban fair enough, I doubt he will.
I am already past the point of tolerance for Borthwick. There isn't a suitably qualified English coach in situ in the prem who is going to get the best out of a Smith/Ford led backline,and plenty who will plow on with the same balls we have seen.
The RFU don't have Shaun's number. I hope another miserable 6n sees Borthwick on his bike and we go for a head honcho who wants to play.
-
Plus 1 (at least).
-
+ 2
-
+3
-
They might try to get it heard under a different offence which would then disregard prior offences and possibly make him eligible for naughty boy school again, looks like that is what Scotland did with Fagerson according to this article.
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/scotland-entitled-to-breathe-huge-sigh-of-relief-over-zander-fagerson-verdict-4249605
This stinks.
Isn't there anyone left at the op of rugby with a shred of integrity left?
On the one hand we keep being told that player safety is the priority whilst at the same time undermining the disciplinary process to get players who commit some of the most dangerous tackles playing as quickly as possible when it suits them.
-
Isn't there anyone left at the op of rugby with a shred of integrity left?
Nope
-
+4
Perhaps Borthwick can be a really good "fall guy"?
-
I've just been reminded of Farrell's role in the 2015 RWC embarrassment:
And so it transpired, even though the 2015 details were slightly different: in the vital group match vs Wales, with England ahead, well positioned to finish the game off, and a critical penalty already awarded, in steams Farrell with an obviously premeditated late tackle right under the ref's nose, and the penalty is reversed. As a direct result, Wales go on to win ? and England go out ignominiously in the group stage. On home soil. Thanks, Owen, and yes, we already knew you're a hard b*****d.
In the piece he talks about how Johnson had been hot headed but turned himself round to become perhaps England's greatest captains.
-
They might try to get it heard under a different offence which would then disregard prior offences and possibly make him eligible for naughty boy school again, looks like that is what Scotland did with Fagerson according to this article.
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/scotland-entitled-to-breathe-huge-sigh-of-relief-over-zander-fagerson-verdict-4249605
The degree to which that stinks is nigh on immeasurable. Presumably they will argue that because Farrell saw "Basham" on the bloke's shirt he was allowed to bash him, he was provoked.
-
As a slight aside - a fair measure of the guy to my mind. A match he was injured for in Coventry he sat with the coaches but at a few points was on his feet shrieking at th ref. One final diatribe he included a few choice words and my other half jumped up and had a substantial go at him telling the coaches they should be embarrassed to be associated with such a foul mouthed cretin. He tried to have a go back but was marched back to the rear of the stand. Much local applause. No time for the little sh!te
-
Oh, how I wish I'd seen that. Huge admiration for Mrs. Neils.
-
As a slight aside - a fair measure of the guy to my mind. A match he was injured for in Coventry he sat with the coaches but at a few points was on his feet shrieking at th ref. One final diatribe he included a few choice words and my other half jumped up and had a substantial go at him telling the coaches they should be embarrassed to be associated with such a foul mouthed cretin. He tried to have a go back but was marched back to the rear of the stand. Much local applause. No time for the little sh!te
Sounds like the game Paul Smith references in this article where he witnessed similar, no mention of Mrs Neils putting him back in his box though unfortunately!
https://twitter.com/RugbyPass/status/1690710321399255040?t=9rOt5_o1PsfOuFqkx0QNOA&s=19
-
As a slight aside - a fair measure of the guy to my mind. A match he was injured for in Coventry he sat with the coaches but at a few points was on his feet shrieking at th ref. One final diatribe he included a few choice words and my other half jumped up and had a substantial go at him telling the coaches they should be embarrassed to be associated with such a foul mouthed cretin. He tried to have a go back but was marched back to the rear of the stand. Much local applause. No time for the little sh!te
Sounds like the game Paul Smith references in this article where he witnessed similar, no mention of Mrs Neils putting him back in his box though unfortunately!
https://twitter.com/RugbyPass/status/1690710321399255040?t=9rOt5_o1PsfOuFqkx0QNOA&s=19
About halfway through second half he was removed.
-
Shame he wasn't 'removed' permanently.