Always a Wasp

General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Neils on February 07, 2020, 12:48:42 PM

Title: EAs again
Post by: Neils on February 07, 2020, 12:48:42 PM
EPCR charging them with playing an inelligible player. Hearing tonight apparently.  As relayed by RiL and others.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Chilham on February 07, 2020, 01:21:26 PM
Unreal.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: mike909 on February 07, 2020, 01:22:49 PM
BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51415778
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Tervueren on February 07, 2020, 01:30:43 PM
According to RugbyPass "The last occasion EPCR heard a similar misconduct case, Scarlets were fined €10,000 – a punishment suspended for two years – and the result of their match – a 14-64 Januaruy 2016 pool stage defeat to Racing – was allowed to stand." so [sadly] looks like they won't get dumped out
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Mikeuk56 on February 07, 2020, 01:44:54 PM
 "Due to an inadvertent administrative error on behalf of the club" Again!!!
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Sting on February 07, 2020, 01:58:54 PM
According to RugbyPass "The last occasion EPCR heard a similar misconduct case, Scarlets were fined €10,000 – a punishment suspended for two years – and the result of their match – a 14-64 Januaruy 2016 pool stage defeat to Racing – was allowed to stand." so [sadly] looks like they won't get dumped out
Or they may get the same treatment we got in 2004?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/dec/23/rugbyunion.londonwasps
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: DGP Wasp on February 07, 2020, 02:17:18 PM
According to RugbyPass "The last occasion EPCR heard a similar misconduct case, Scarlets were fined €10,000 – a punishment suspended for two years – and the result of their match – a 14-64 Januaruy 2016 pool stage defeat to Racing – was allowed to stand." so [sadly] looks like they won't get dumped out

But Sarries operate under completely different rules to everyone else so who knows??
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Davidabricot on February 07, 2020, 02:22:27 PM
At this stage, they should create their own sport or to destroy the club. What will be the next step?
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: FishingWasp on February 07, 2020, 02:24:22 PM
Even if there was an "oversight" or "administrative error" (again!), I cannot believe that the player himself did not know when his work permit was up! if he didn't remind his employers (who would in any case know the expiry date) then he should be booted out of the country, and if he did then this is a flagrant breach of employment law by Sarries! Could be some interesting interviews from our government agencies!

How can anyone have any sympathy for Sarries? - apart from catering staff, groundsmen etc who may have been unaware of matters, and long suffering fans (both of them)
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Tervueren on February 07, 2020, 02:55:18 PM
According to RugbyPass "The last occasion EPCR heard a similar misconduct case, Scarlets were fined €10,000 – a punishment suspended for two years – and the result of their match – a 14-64 Januaruy 2016 pool stage defeat to Racing – was allowed to stand." so [sadly] looks like they won't get dumped out
Or they may get the same treatment we got in 2004?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/dec/23/rugbyunion.londonwasps
in 2016 "Wing Jacob Cowley featured on the bench for the West Wales outfit but did not come on the field of play during the 64-14 defeat " so the Saracens case might be seen as worse as the player came off the bench.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: DGP Wasp on February 07, 2020, 02:59:12 PM
According to RugbyPass "The last occasion EPCR heard a similar misconduct case, Scarlets were fined €10,000 – a punishment suspended for two years – and the result of their match – a 14-64 Januaruy 2016 pool stage defeat to Racing – was allowed to stand." so [sadly] looks like they won't get dumped out
Or they may get the same treatment we got in 2004?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/dec/23/rugbyunion.londonwasps
in 2016 "Wing Jacob Cowley featured on the bench for the West Wales outfit but did not come on the field of play during the 64-14 defeat " so the Saracens case might be seen as worse as the player came off the bench.

Interesting.  Good research!
So the precedent may well in fact be Jonny Barrett in 04.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: RBB on February 07, 2020, 03:34:49 PM
More Cheaters than The Serengeti....
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: DGP Wasp on February 07, 2020, 04:18:11 PM
There is a more recent precedent when Grenoble did similar in 2012.

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12040/8330358/Amlin-Challenge-Cup-Grenoble-docked-four-points-for-fielding-ineligible-player

A similar outcome this evening would drop Sarries out of the quarter final places.  Glasgow would be the beneficiaries.  Racing would climb up the seedings too, and shake the draw up massively, but simplest solution would be for Glasgow simply to take Sarries' place.

We will find out later.  Nige had better pour himself a stiff drink!
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Neils on February 07, 2020, 06:46:24 PM
Racing 92 issued a fairly pointed statement. Reminding the organisation that in Top14 the club transgressing are reduced in points and the other club is given +5 points. Also angry that they were not informed which seems strange.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: RBB on February 07, 2020, 08:03:32 PM
Spoiler
And now being thumped by Sharks in the Premiership Cup
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Neils on February 07, 2020, 09:31:43 PM
Let off with a fine £50k half suspended no point deduction.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: DGP Wasp on February 07, 2020, 09:39:17 PM
Given Racing's earlier response I'm sure they'll push for more. Can't imagine they'll get far though.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Chunky24 on February 07, 2020, 09:48:05 PM
I'd say the outcome is fair, not like they tried to sneak in a new player for that game as he was and still is a long serving player.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Vespula Vulgaris on February 07, 2020, 10:22:49 PM
Long term cheats cheat again and get away with it.

You'd have thought they might pay a bit more attention all things considered.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Sting on February 08, 2020, 06:34:37 AM
Long term cheats cheat again and get away with it.

You'd have thought they might pay a bit more attention all things considered.
50k euro fine. Half that suspended. Zero points deduction.
Verdict was bizzare.
"Player eligible when team announced" ...but not the next day! ." honest admin mistake"...lol...this board predicted they would conclude that.
EAs have sunk to an all time low. Cheating and being allowed to get away with it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51415778
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: wasps on February 08, 2020, 07:21:47 AM

Do Saracens gain an advantage by not renewing someone's work permit?
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Vespula Vulgaris on February 08, 2020, 07:33:46 AM

Do Saracens gain an advantage by not renewing someone's work permit?

Do Saracens gain an advantage by playing a player that is not eligible to play?

I don't believe for a second that no one noticed his work permit had expired,
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: wasps on February 08, 2020, 07:58:15 AM

Do Saracens gain an advantage by not renewing someone's work permit?

Do Saracens gain an advantage by playing a player that is not eligible to play?

I don't believe for a second that no one noticed his work permit had expired,


VV... I can't argue at all that they don't gain an advantage by fielding an illegible player.
And given everything that has occurred to date it's hard to have any sympathy for the club.

What I'm wondering though is do they gain any advantage by not renewing his work permit?

If they did know about it, and purposely allowed it to lapse, what would be their end game? What advantage are they trying to gain?

If there was some rule that allowed him to be replaced in the European squad if his work permit expires then I can definitely see that they may have purposely chosen to turn a blind eye to it.
However, on the face of it, I just don't see that they gain any possible advantage at all by not getting his work permit renewed
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Neils on February 08, 2020, 08:33:53 AM
You do wonder if their administration is so bad that they couldn't have informed the Euro authorities on the monday after the Racing match. They had to renew his Visa because he has continued to play eg last night. Was part of their defence the number of supporters who had already shelled out for the match. You do wonder if somebody was about to blow the whistle on them so they acted first. It still stinks.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Old Geezer on February 08, 2020, 10:09:40 AM
I have been as critical of Sarries as anyone but I am prepered to believe this was a genuine admin error.  The visa was in place when they selected their team and only expired the day before the game as I understand it.  I am prepared to believe the player had forgotten about his visa expiry.  I have a Blue Badge and it expired without me knowing because of my own admin error.  These things do happen innocently, unlike their premiership transgressions. 
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Rossm on February 08, 2020, 10:13:00 AM
Why does his work permit (visa) come up for renewal mid-season?
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: BG on February 08, 2020, 10:29:18 AM
Why does his work permit (visa) come up for renewal mid-season?

Presumably because that's the time of year when it was granted originally.

Didn't he play last night though? Which must mean they quickly re-applied for the work visa to be renewed immediately.

On this occasion it does appear to be a genuine mistake though, perhaps on the players part
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: MarleyWasp on February 08, 2020, 10:44:50 AM
The trouble I'm aving with this is that it would take the Team Manager all of a minute to put in several reminders in his diary to make sure work permits are renewed on time. It would take 10 minutes to set up a spreadsheet showing each player that needs a work permit and when theirs is due to expire. It's such a simple thing to keep on top of.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Shugs on February 08, 2020, 11:49:52 AM
Maybe they can get Itoje et al to pay it to contra the salary cap breach.  ;)
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Vespula Vulgaris on February 08, 2020, 12:51:02 PM
I have been as critical of Sarries as anyone but I am prepered to believe this was a genuine admin error.  The visa was in place when they selected their team and only expired the day before the game as I understand it.  I am prepared to believe the player had forgotten about his visa expiry.  I have a Blue Badge and it expired without me knowing because of my own admin error.  These things do happen innocently, unlike their premiership transgressions.

I could be wrong, but I suspect you don't have anyone working in HR for you who would be directly responsible for this sort if thing.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: wasps on February 08, 2020, 02:10:07 PM

It's definitely shoddy management and administration, bit I still don't understand what advantage Saracens could leverage by letting someone's work permit expire.


If there is some loophole there, then I'd have no trouble in believing that they've done it on purpose.
However, at the moment I just can't see what they could gain by letting this happen and therefore it genuinely does feel like poor administration.


Their fine feels pointless... A drop in the ocean that will barely get noticed.
With some French clubs looking to get Saracens expelled from the competition completely, the authorities could have used this as an opportunity to do just that.

Even though I currently feel like this was a genuine mistake, I'd still have little sympathy for them getting kicked out on a technicality, given that they didn't legally qualify for the competition.

Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Neils on February 08, 2020, 06:25:01 PM
https://www.racing92.fr/article/communique-de-presse-sanctions-saracens/13265
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Vespula Vulgaris on February 08, 2020, 07:24:41 PM
https://www.racing92.fr/article/communique-de-presse-sanctions-saracens/13265

Good for them. Hard to disagree.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: RBB on February 08, 2020, 07:59:17 PM
Crikey - 'Racing 92 takes note of this grotesque decision. Congratulations to the Saracens for this new feat.' You have to love the French for their laissez faire attitude when it comes to speaking their minds.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: wasps on February 08, 2020, 08:02:46 PM
https://www.racing92.fr/article/communique-de-presse-sanctions-saracens/13265

Good for them. Hard to disagree.

The Google translation is great. I hope the real translation has the same meaning and emphasis.


While I'm still on the fence about this latest transgression, I still feel that they deserve everything that they're getting and if I was Racing 92, I'd be aggrieved not just because of this latest problem but because Saracens probably shouldn't be in the competition at all
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Neils on February 09, 2020, 08:24:42 AM
From DW - report in Telegraph says RFU informed EAs of Visa problem but EAs left it for 11 days until tickets had gone on sale.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Tervueren on February 10, 2020, 08:43:21 AM
Telegraph article

Racing 92 have reacted with anger and incredulity at what they consider to be the leniency of the sanction handed down to Saracens for fielding an ineligible player in their Round 6 Champions Cup match against the Parisian side in January.

An independent European Professional Club Rugby disciplinary panel fined Saracens €50,000 (€25k of which is suspended) for their administrative negligence in allowing American prop Titi Lamositele to come on as a replacement in the 60th minute, despite the fact that his work visa had expired 24 hours earlier.

The inadvertent error was only uncovered by the RFU ahead of a Premiership match between Saracens and Harlequins the following week. It was 11 days before Saracens notified EPCR of the situation and accepted responsibility.

Saracens won the match 27-24 to finish runners-up in the group and go through to the quarter-final where they will face Leinster at the Aviva Stadium on April 4.

If they had been punished by effective ejection from the tournament, with Racing getting five points for the game, then the Parisians would have gone up the seedings and had a home tie in the quarter-final. Instead, Racing must travel to Clermont Auvergne.

“Racing 92 are aware of this grotesque decision,” read a statement from the club. “We now know that a club can play fast and loose with the salary cap over several seasons. We know also that a club still has the chance to be crowned a champion of an international competition while continuing to make a mockery of its regulations. We know too that a club only has to risk 0.07 per cent of its budget in order to get an ineligible international player. This marvellous sport does not have the same values for everybody but we will be happy to go and play our friends in Clermont.” 
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: DGP Wasp on February 10, 2020, 09:14:12 AM

The Google translation is great. I hope the real translation has the same meaning and emphasis.


As someone with a decent command of French, the meaning and emphasis is exactly as it comes across in translation.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Tervueren on February 10, 2020, 09:23:16 AM
It is the 11 days delay that seems (to me) odd. One could be forgiven for thinking that perhaps Saracens hung on to make it less likely they would get ejected because of the disruption it would cause as tickets were on sale and arrangements being made by clubs and fans. Whilst, of course, I doubt that is the case for a club for whom "Integrity etc." are watch-words.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: JF on February 10, 2020, 10:46:02 AM
It is the 11 days delay that seems (to me) odd. One could be forgiven for thinking that perhaps Saracens hung on to make it less likely they would get ejected because of the disruption it would cause as tickets were on sale and arrangements being made by clubs and fans. Whilst, of course, I doubt that is the case for a club for whom "Integrity etc." are watch-words.

But that would suggest some sort of pre-meditated plan, do we really think that sort of thing happens in top-flight rugby? With the same team? Twice? Within a matter of weeks? Surely not!!!
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: King Prawn Phuna on February 10, 2020, 10:55:18 AM
As I've pointed out elsewhere you may be interested in the fact that the same player was picked on the bench a week later for the  PRL fixture  v Quins...are PRL looking into sanctions for that offence too?

Harlequins: Morris; Murley, Penny, Lasike, Ibitoye; Smith, Care; Garcia Botta, Elia, Collier, Lewies, Symons, J Chisholm, Robshaw (capt), Dombrandt.

Replacements: Musk, Auterac, Kerrod, Cavubati, Kunatani, Landajo, Herron, Goneva.

Saracens: Gallagher; Lewington, Lozowski, Morris, Segun; Manu Vunipola, Wigglesworth (co-capt); Barrington, Singleton, Koch, Hunter-Hill, Kpoku, Isiekwe, Clark, Wray (co-capt).

Replacements: Woolstencroft, Lamositele ,Ibuanokpe, Christie, Reffell, Spencer, Watson, Obatoyinbo.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Tervueren on February 10, 2020, 11:19:47 AM
I suppose it depends upon when the work permit was renewed
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: wasps on February 10, 2020, 12:02:58 PM

Can work permits be back dated?


i.e. could they have theoretically applied for a work permit to cover the date of the game... And if so, would that make it legal in the eyes of general employment law?
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Neils on February 10, 2020, 12:16:09 PM
Simples- cheats do what cheats do. To wait 11 days before informing Euro Rugby is not an accident.

Surprised RFU didn't inform them but then again this is the organisation that can't apparently see a disrepute charge.
Title: Re: EAs again
Post by: Tervueren on February 10, 2020, 12:33:22 PM
They cannot be accused of a lack of oversight.

It seems to have been one oversight after another.