Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Neils on April 13, 2022, 09:06:20 PM
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https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-recruitment-aim-explained-lee-23686500
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The article makes it sound like it's a surprise that a dominant forward pack will win you games.
That's always been how rugby is.
Every few years, some clubs and national sides try to win without dominating the set pieces. Some of the time, that's been us.
But ultimately, the game is a lot easier if you don't try to reinvent the wheel.
Get some forwards that are good at doing forwards stuff.
Then build a back line to work off of them.
The forwards win you the game, the backs tell you by how much.
It's the way it's always been, and it's the way I always want it to be
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Article also suggests JTA will be leaving
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Yes, everyone knows a dominant forward pack wins you things. Therefore we should be pleased that’s where Blackett is heading. Not many front rows will live with a first up propping duo of West and Koch. It will be genuinely strange to go into games expecting to boss scrum time and will give us a chance of winning things.
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It’s an old adage but still true that forwards win you games and the backs decide by how much.
Injuries have been damaging to our ambitions over the last few seasons, but our true Achilles heel has been our forwards. If you do not have a scrum, line out or set piece game then you will never get enough field position or point scoring opportunities. And ultimately it costs you wins that torpedo any chance of success.
As a back there is no greater joy than walking forward when your pack are rumbling on in the maul, or having time and space to launch moves because the forwards have put the oppo defence on the back foot and tied in their forwards to try to stop us on the gain line. It is why the slower, physical, set piece orientated game can be just as enthralling as the fast flowing game, as so much determination, organisation and sheer will is needed to best your opponent.
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Hang on, chaps. We are not there yet.
There is more to it than recruiting a couple of props and an uncapped 2nd row.
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Hang on, chaps. We are not there yet.
There is more to it than recruiting a couple of props and an uncapped 2nd row.
+1
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Whilst I think recruiting two pros at the top of their game is a great start. But if you look at the teams at the top of the table they don't have star studded packs (with the exception of Sarries for reasons we all know about). Its about having a forward unit that can do all the set piece stuff well.
The Wasps lineout is looking decent, maul not bad, maul defence has looked both good & bad, scrum needs work.
I think fans should be optimistic for next year, but the proof will be in September
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No, we’re not there yet but we’ve recognised what we need to do and done it. No guarantee at all that this will translate to wins on the field but it has a better chance of doing so than what we currently have.
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Hang on, chaps. We are not there yet.
There is more to it than recruiting a couple of props and an uncapped 2nd row.
Absolutely. We may find that they can't work together and the pack can't play as a unit.
But, on paper, we already have launchbury who is a multi capped lock.
We've seen what Stooke can provide and Gaskell always plays well.
Our back row is already chock full of talent and is likely a match for most/all teams.
Back up front, we know that West is a strong scrummager, Harris is also very powerful and Martinez looked very good before his injury.
All in all, we already have most of what we need, but tight head prop is often seen as the most important position as far as scrummaging goes. So with Koch, Ryan and Alo we have quality and depth there too
While it's no guarantee of success, it's a big step in the right direction
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Yes, everyone knows a dominant forward pack wins you things. Therefore we should be pleased that’s where Blackett is heading. Not many front rows will live with a first up propping duo of West and Koch. It will be genuinely strange to go into games expecting to boss scrum time and will give us a chance of winning things.
+1
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Yes, everyone knows a dominant forward pack wins you things. Therefore we should be pleased that’s where Blackett is heading. Not many front rows will live with a first up propping duo of West and Koch. It will be genuinely strange to go into games expecting to boss scrum time and will give us a chance of winning things.
+1
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Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.
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Yes, everyone knows a dominant forward pack wins you things. Therefore we should be pleased that’s where Blackett is heading. Not many front rows will live with a first up propping duo of West and Koch. It will be genuinely strange to go into games expecting to boss scrum time and will give us a chance of winning things.
+1
-1
Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.
How do I know a Hymenoptera post as soon as I have read the first sentence?
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Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.
Tbf I agree with some of what you said. Specifically I don't think Koch and Ryan will solve all our problems and I'm particularly concerned with the backs going into next season.
That said we reached finals recently through good forwards and backs. Willis and Young maintained our possession. And Kieran Brookes was in fantastic form for us before he left.
So whilst I'm apprehensive as well, these new forwards might help us yet.
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Throughout my time supporting wasps, I've used the line "there's more than 1 way to win a war".
I've meant that dominant forwards play is the way other clubs do it, and we look for alternative solutions.
What I've come to realise over time is that it's easier to be good with a strong forward pack, and it's more likely to be successful over an extended period of time.
Clubs can win without being dominant up front, but typically it'll be short lived success
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Yes, everyone knows a dominant forward pack wins you things. Therefore we should be pleased that’s where Blackett is heading. Not many front rows will live with a first up propping duo of West and Koch. It will be genuinely strange to go into games expecting to boss scrum time and will give us a chance of winning things.
+1
-1
Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.
Flip it round. When is the last time a “backs led” team won anything. I won’t take Quins as there win was hugely based on Marler/Collier/Louw. Quoting Saints being on for top 4 is laughable as a template - what about Tigers and Saracens - the pack led table toppers. Of course you also need quality backs but cliche or not if you don’t have stable set piece you don’t win often. As a matter of interest where would you have concentrated recruitment?
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Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.
I disagree completely. Clichés are what they are but that doesn't discount all truth from them. I don't think anyone is claiming that Koch is 'the saviour of our game' just that adding a world-class player in a key position will improve the team which I don't think is too controversial.
Alo has had a good season and everyone has given him credit for the improvement to his game and fitness but I can't recall a game with him at TH where our scrum has dominated the opposition. Also, if you were to try and rank al the first choice tightheads in the Premiership, Alo would probably come out somewhere in the middle, whereas Koch would be most people's first or second choice. I'd suggest Alo is keen to fight for his place having signed a new contract and bringing in a world cup winner gives him the opportunity to compete with the best in training and improve even further.
I'd disagree that Quins have an average pack - or certainly front row - Marler and Collier are superb; they are the least penalised and by virtually every measure one of the best two scrummaging teams in the league. Saints pack I'd agree but that's one team who might get in the top 4. The teams who have been dominant and won the Premiership have almost always had strong packs and front-rows. Exeter and Saracens have used the strength of their pack to win (plus Tigers this year and previously) and teams with flair backs and weaker packs like us in 2017, Bath in 2015, Bristol last year have come close but not been able to win the thing. Us reaching the final in 2020 was as much Brooks and West with Willis, Young, Launch, Rowlands etc as it was our backs.
I don't think that by signing Koch and Ryan we are going to win the Premiership next year - partly as there are some other very good teams in a very tight league who are also evolving and strengthening - but I do think that we will improve on this year. We haven't had a top TH at the club probably since Vickery - so 12 years now. Brookes improved our scrum loads and he was a good player for us but he isn't as good as Koch (Brooke's last game for example was replacement loosehead for Toulon as they lost to Biarritz).
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Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.
Not even sure where to start with that post.
no one on this thread is suggesting that one prop, on his own will change Wasps fortunes.
Nor has anyone said Alo isn't decent, although you would have to doubt he's as good as a multiple capped springbok & world cup winner....
Quins do NOT have an average pack & probably have, in Marler & Collier have one of the best scrummaging prop combos in the league.
Yes, Wasps reached two recent finals, and lost them both, to a side with a large & dominant pack.
Not really sure why you need to pounce on any slightly positive post and pour derision & negativity on it, but each to their own. I wouldn't want you to stop doing something you clearly enjoy so much :)
Whilst I was typing this Jac A has posted a much more detailed comment than I can be bothered to do. Many thanks
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Every time I read that we need forward dominance to win I remember sitting at the Ricoh as it was then watching our forwards being driven backwards as quickly as our backs went forwards when we stuffed Toulon.
Good props are always welcome, but what we need is a decent game plan that plays to our strengths, and the ability and commitment to carrying through with it
It pains me to say it as an ex forward, but Wasps have always been a loose play, back flair type of team. The idea of us grinding forwards inch by inch the way Chiefs did a few years ago does not fill me with joy.
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Yes, everyone knows a dominant forward pack wins you things. Therefore we should be pleased that’s where Blackett is heading. Not many front rows will live with a first up propping duo of West and Koch. It will be genuinely strange to go into games expecting to boss scrum time and will give us a chance of winning things.
+1
-1
Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.
Strange post to start with as the "forwards win….." quote wasn’t even in there. Maybe you were responding to someone else?
As for my +1, it was in full agreement with the idea that as a Wasps fan it will be extremely weird going into games expecting our scrum to NOT be under pressure almost all the time. Alo is a decent scrummager at last, but there’s a drop-off after him. It’s not long ago we had a poor Alo and an awful version of JTA. Both are better but how anyone can’t see that adding Koch and Ryan will improve this aspect of our game is beyond me. That is amazing quality AND depth. I’m not sure anyone has claimed anything else.
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Every time I read that we need forward dominance to win I remember sitting at the Ricoh as it was then watching our forwards being driven backwards as quickly as our backs went forwards when we stuffed Toulon.
Good props are always welcome, but what we need is a decent game plan that plays to our strengths, and the ability and commitment to carrying through with it
It pains me to say it as an ex forward, but Wasps have always been a loose play, back flair type of team. The idea of us grinding forwards inch by inch the way Chiefs did a few years ago does not fill me with joy.
[/quote But Toulon simply didn’t turn up that night. We played well but since we’ve lost endless games to pack based teams. Just because we’ve signed Koch and Ryan doesn’t mean we’ll become Chiefs. It just makes us more competitive. I’m amazed there is so much opposition to signing two very good props. We need to move away from being the losers who score sensational tries.
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The recent law changes have somewhat changed the status quo WRT the Chiefs style of play. They were boring with 5m scrums ad infinitum. But that has gone and ball held up is a drop out to the defending team. The rolling maul - IF REFFED properly - is an impressive sight and an important attacking weapon.
For me, a team that can adapt to Plan A, B, or C depending on how the opposition are playing, is a well balnced team and will win far more often than it loses. This is what Wasps have lacked in recent times. Lee has clearly identified this and is recruiting appropriately so that we can win whatever the strengths of the opposition.
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It will certainly be Lee's squad / team / style next season rather than a bit of a legacy as he has had a sustained period of his own recruitment now. Interesting that as a former back his priority has been recruiting a solid competitive pack whereas previously mentioned Dai as a former forward had a galaxy of star backs and not so much of a forward pack.
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The recent law changes have somewhat changed the status quo WRT the Chiefs style of play. They were boring with 5m scrums ad infinitum. But that has gone and ball held up is a drop out to the defending team. The rolling maul - IF REFFED properly - is an impressive sight and an important attacking weapon.
For me, a team that can adapt to Plan A, B, or C depending on how the opposition are playing, is a well balnced team and will win far more often than it loses. This is what Wasps have lacked in recent times. Lee has clearly identified this and is recruiting appropriately so that we can win whatever the strengths of the opposition.
"Identified" aaaarrgghh!!! I hate Brian O’Driscoll for making this a word that’s used constantly in rugby.
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It will certainly be Lee's squad / team / style next season rather than a bit of a legacy as he has had a sustained period of his own recruitment now. Interesting that as a former back his priority has been recruiting a solid competitive pack whereas previously mentioned Dai as a former forward had a galaxy of star backs and not so much of a forward pack.
+1, it's bizarre Lee has a clear emphasis on forwards. I'd argue this is Blaze's influence more than Lee's.
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As a "backs" coach, maybe Lee feels the need to recruit forwards, but feels he can make backs better through coaching
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There was me thinking that the backs are starting to look exciting again.
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A general rugby comment - but one that I have made about Jones' recent failures with England - is that someone, somewhere within a team needs to be making net gains, ball in hand, and that can be from both strength allied to offloading (to precis) or from pace and/or mazy runners.
Why England were poor - in the main - is that they seemed surprised that a team denuded of the fwds that did those gains and without their experienced, pacy wingers wasn't looking like it could win games.
So what about Wasps...Well, I'd guess the focus is to be as competitive, up front, within the set piece like we are in the wider channels. And make sure we have options. Ball in hand up front we have the resources - both Willis' and Barbeary and Carr. So if what we are doing is making sure we are as good in the set piece as in the loose then fine.
Given parity/slight advantage - our backs are likely to have more good games - and the coaches may have decided that there is better value in investing up front, and in those area where we've been a little less competitive, before looking too much at the backs line up.
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Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head Mike. Any team needs a weapon that gets it across the gain line. Our forward additions give us more of that alongside Barbeary and a couple of others. I suspect Odogwu will be seen a lot at 13 next year. With him there and Umaga at 15 we will hopefully have two backs who frequently break the line as well. In theory it looks like it could work.
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Given the RP rumour that two clubs are showing interest in Cardall, we should get him on a new contract PDQ.
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Given the RP rumour that two clubs are showing interest in Cardall, we should get him on a new contract PDQ.
+1 Dead right. Cardall is a quality player yet young enough to be still improving.
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It will depend on how much he wants & how much longer Gaskell will be playing.
Currently you'd have to expect Cardall to be 4th choice lock behind Launch, Stooke & Gaskell. But as Gaskell seems to be very injury prone maybe Cardall will be looking for 3rd choice spot & asking for bigger bucks accordingly, which Wasps may not be able to afford to pay him....
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And we have a lock incoming
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Cardall is going to be 3rd choice when Fifita goes. As you say Gaskell is injury prone, as is Theo given recent history.
With the skill set he has and his age he must have ambitions to be 1st/2nd choice in a Premiership team - why not realise that ambition at Wasps?
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Part of the 'problem' is that Stooke has proved not just to be a superb player, but also remarkably resilient.
No need to rest him = less game time for TC.
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Launchbury will be away for a fair chunk of time with England. Cardall, for me is the next choice. We don’t yet know how McDonald will work out and we’ve not seen enough of Vukasinovic. Cardall, for me, should be very near the top of our retention aims.
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Part of the 'problem' is that Stooke has proved not just to be a superb player, but also remarkably resilient.
You've gone and done it now, bd.
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Merde
Let us hope he is rested until the QF
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Nice thread from Sam Larner on Burger and what he brings here:
https://twitter.com/SamLStandsUp/status/1516480174686191631?t=BHGVy1OUWfzLgEFHrjO6BQ&s=19
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Yes, looking forward to seeing Odendaal. He’s not really a replacement for Fekitoa though.
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Nice thread from Sam Larner on Burger and what he brings here:
https://twitter.com/SamLStandsUp/status/1516480174686191631?t=BHGVy1OUWfzLgEFHrjO6BQ&s=19
Very interesting thanks for posting.
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Part of the 'problem' is that Stooke has proved not just to be a superb player, but also remarkably resilient.
No need to rest him = less game time for TC.
I read it that the coaches were shrewd enough to see that Bath weren’t getting the best out of Stooke and he’s just delivering what they expected.
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Nice thread from Sam Larner on Burger and what he brings here:
https://twitter.com/SamLStandsUp/status/1516480174686191631?t=BHGVy1OUWfzLgEFHrjO6BQ&s=19
Cheers. I do like Sam Larner.
If we are looking at Odendaal as a Gopperth replacement rather than Fekitoa, I had a quick look at the numbers there.
Obvs Jimmy's kicking is another matter entirely but...
Try Equivalents for Gopperth this year is 5.8 - 8.2 per 100 carries - Odendaal is on 12.3 and 15 respectively - so this suggests that BO provides a greater attacking threat than Jimmy.
Odendaal has a slightly higher tackle success rate than Gopperth but not really anything in it - 87% and 86%, Odendaal makes more tackles per minute played by a very small margin too. Odendaal however has won twice as many turnovers as Gopperth.
Also he is obviously quite a bit bigger, heavier and I would guess a little faster than Jimmy.
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Also he is obviously quite a bit bigger, heavier and I would guess a little faster than Jimmy.
And very nearly ten years younger ;)