Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Vespula Vulgaris on August 16, 2022, 02:39:24 PM
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I'm hearing rumours of a big news story about to break about a Premiership club with financial problems and it isn't us...
Anyone heard anything?
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Just that Worcester have apparently had problems when it comes to paying suppliers and players in recent times - I'm sure many others here will have heard the same.
That'd be my guess, anyway.
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Must be Sarries. They've just been told they will be relegated again if they pay all their players what they've promised next season.
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Worcester or Newcastle would be my bet.
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Sale have been having problems.
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I'm hearing rumours of a big news story about to break about a Premiership club with financial problems and it isn't us...
Anyone heard anything?
It has been all over Twatter for about 10 days or so that a club not far to the West of us has not paid players or small suppliers. This was confirmed by a Warriors fan on DW a few days ago.
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Thinks it's fairly public that Worc are having issues, but no-one wants to talk about them as much as they do Wasps.
Is any attention better than no attention?
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I'll be surprised if anyone other than Bristol and Bath aren't having problems, and I only exclude them because of the individual wealth of their owners.
Covid has been brutal for all the clubs.
Per the other comments, though, suspect in this case it's Worcester. We shall see - hopefully not enough to put them out of business, wouldn't wish that on anyone.
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I'm hearing rumours of a big news story about to break about a Premiership club with financial problems and it isn't us...
Anyone heard anything?
It has been all over Twatter for about 10 days or so that a club not far to the West of us has not paid players or small suppliers. This was confirmed by a Warriors fan on DW a few days ago.
One of their fans popped up in one of the threads and talked about their problems and it doesn’t look good.
I was at our game there last season with a friend who has family who’ve been life long STH. When I met them they were quite distraught at the financial situation and didn’t expect the club to last.
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My understanding is that Worcester have been paying players, just doing so late.
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Thinks it's fairly public that Worc are having issues, but no-one wants to talk about them as much as they do Wasps.
Is any attention better than no attention?
Ask Oscar.
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I hope it isn't Wuss.
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I hope this isn't a knock on effect of Sarries cheating.
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I think it could easily be Worcester. Hope there is a way through it for them.
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I hope this isn't a knock on effect of Sarries cheating.
Virtually everything wrong is!
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I certainly feel for the fans of any club in trouble.
If you’ve been used to spending your weekends following your club and enjoying the days out with friends…it must be a horrible feeling if you think it could tank at any second.
As Wasps fans, we know this all too well.
So I’m hoping for positive solutions to any troubles clubs are experiencing.
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The Mail states that the Worcester players have now all been paid.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-10900893/Worcester-players-FINALLY-paid-overdue-wages-clubs-short-term-cashflow-issue.html
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Good if true
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The Mail states that the Worcester players have now all been paid.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-10900893/Worcester-players-FINALLY-paid-overdue-wages-clubs-short-term-cashflow-issue.html
Article is over 2 months old...
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The Mail states that the Worcester players have now all been paid.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-10900893/Worcester-players-FINALLY-paid-overdue-wages-clubs-short-term-cashflow-issue.html
This article is dated 9th June.
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Sorry. My bad.
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Telegraph reports re Worcester
The taxman is seeking the Premiership club’s liquidation at a court hearing that could take place within weeks unless the club settles the debt.
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Worcester Warriors hit by winding up petition
Premiership club says it has suffered ‘unavoidable delays’ in receiving funding that will ‘secure its long-term future’
By
Ben Rumsby
17 August 2022 • 2:06pm
Worcester Warriors have been hit by a winding-up petition from HM Revenue & Customs over an unpaid tax bill, Telegraph Sport can reveal.
The taxman is seeking the Premiership club’s liquidation at a court hearing that could take place within weeks unless the club settles the debt.
Worcester said: “Worcester Warriors, along with many other businesses and most sports clubs have found the past two years extremely challenging owing to the Covid-19 pandemic and the rise in the cost of living.
“We retained our staff but lost income during the various lockdowns during which the overwhelming majority of matches were played behind closed doors. We returned to normal operations 12 months ago carrying a tax liability to HMRC. From the outset, we have worked closely and openly with HMRC on a plan to clear these liabilities and a Time to Pay (TTP) arrangement has been in place.
“The club owners and board are fully committed to preserving top-flight professional rugby in Worcester and have been working on solutions to secure the financial future of Worcester Warriors and to pay outstanding tax owed to HMRC. A solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. Unfortunately, there have been unavoidable delays beyond the club’s control to the final tasks required to complete the funding.
“Having kept HMRC fully apprised of the situation we are disappointed that they have taken the decision to issue a winding-up petition. The club’s directors are in continuing dialogue with HMRC in an attempt to find a speedy and satisfactory resolution.
“We have also been in communication with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, Sport England, Premiership Rugby and the RFU [Rugby Football Union] regarding this matter.”
HMRC declined to comment.
Salaries unpaid
News of the winding-up petition comes two months after Worcester were late paying their players’ May salaries. The club said at the time: “A short delay in paying a small number of players was caused by a short-term cashflow issue that has now been resolved.
“Warriors, like most major sports clubs and businesses, saw income streams severely affected during the various lockdowns caused by Covid-19.
“We appreciate with the war in Ukraine and rise in the cost of living these remain uncertain and challenging times for many. As a club and business we are very grateful to the support, understanding and loyalty of our bankers, suppliers, commercial partners, supporters and staff during this period.
“We will continue to diversify the range of activities at Sixways to generate more non-rugby matchday revenue. We are also working on plans for a major project to develop the whole Sixways site which we believe will secure the long-term future of Warriors as a sustainable Premiership rugby club.”
Owner's ban from legal profession
The following month, Worcester announced co-owner Colin Goldring had been deemed “fit and proper to own and be director of a sports club” after he was banned from working in the legal profession following a failed £8 million luxury car deal involving a foreign prince.
Goldring was also made to pay £13,000 in costs by a Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal over something that took place when he was a trainee solicitor for a law firm in 2017. A dishonesty charge against him was dropped by the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA).
Worcester said afterwards: “All regulatory bodies expressed to Goldring that they were satisfied he was fit and proper to own and be director of a sports club.”
Goldring added: “The legal profession is rightly held to a high standard, and it is regrettable that failings were found at the firm I was working for as a trainee which impacted some work I did for a client. The outcome delivered by the SRA acknowledges the lack of appropriate supervision provided to me as a trainee solicitor.
“It cleared me of any allegations of dishonesty or lack of integrity and did not impose a fine or ban. The Agreed Outcome that I would not work for a law firm again without the SRA’s prior consent is fair and does not impact my current position.
“The outcome was agreed on the basis I had acted with honesty and integrity. I hold these values in the highest regard and am glad my name was cleared on both.
“I thank Worcester Warriors and the partners and sponsors I have spoken with for their continued confidence in me.”
Goldring and Worcester co-owner Jason Whittingham also own League One football club Morecambe.
Telegraph Sport has also been told Worcester took out a multi-million-pound loan last year under the Government’s Covid-19 Sport’ Winter Survival Package, in which £88m was made available to Premiership teams. A charge was placed on clubs in a bid to safeguard those long-term loans in the event they failed to repay them.
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Goldring sounds an interesting character of whom we shall no doubt hear more in years to come.
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Winding up orders with football clubs tend to get treated very leniently - my club seemed to have endless ones a few years ago. The court will give them time if they can come up with a payment plan (and if Notts County are anything to go by more time if they then revise that plan...and again and again!). Hopefully they can get themselves sorted.
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wasps were seconds from going down the tubes in 2012. Same situation - unpaid HMRC bills.
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I don't remember if that was due to a winding up order or because we were insolvent? I think there is a difference (but I am by no means an expert) in that you can petition the court for an extension / leniency to a Winding Up Order to give some breathing space and come up with a solution, whereas the other means you need to stop trading.
I recall the feeling amongst the Notts County fans during that period (I would say dark period, but it is always pretty gloomy in Notts County world) was that it was a way for the HMRC to apply pressure the owners and move up the creditors list. In football, football creditors must by paid first and in full, so a club going into administration isn't great news for the HMRC as there is little left over once transfer fees, contracts etc are paid off. On the other hand a winding up order keeps the owners focussed on paying the taxes due even if it is over a greater period of time. As a result they were generally happy to accept an extension and payment plan. As I say, a lot of summation going on there, and in rugby there may not be those rules in place to protect other clubs / players, which would put a different spin on it all. Of course I could easily be talking absolute rubbish!!
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Almost all the leading clubs are technically insolvent, except that they have backers with deep pockets to bail them out. Their accounts all indicate that, and thus the accounts are signed off on that exceptional basis. The second the backer can't or won't put more funds in, they are obliged to enter in to some form of insolvency. Failure to do so is an offence that can lead to big fines on the directors and owners, as well as potential prison time and/or bans from being a director or being involved in the running of any business.
It is clear that for both Worcester and Wasps, that point has been reached. For Worcester, it was reached some months ago. HMRC can be reasonable when they want to, but the second you fail to keep to an agreed plan, they cease being reasonable, and will not come back to the table. You are then reliant on the court being lenient (not as likely as some would suggest) and the HMRC solicitors being incompetent (highly likely) in presenting their case.
The potential advantage that Wasps have is that they may not be in HMRC's bad books yet, but I am amazed some bondholders have not started court action (if they are able to under the terms of the bond). Not all of them will be die hard Wasps fans.
What would not surprise me is a semi rich white knight appearing, who buys CCFC and Wasps. Someone like Simon Jordon, and then see him do something I have heard others say a joint owner might do, and that is to build or buy Wasps a new smaller stadium (which could include the idea to buy an existing stadium that might need some work), much better suited to playing Rugby?
Did you know that the Henley training ground is almost exactly halfway between Worcester's ground and the CBS Arena? Did you know that driving from Sunbury, takes roughly the same time to get to the CBS Arena as it does to get to the Worcester ground (but don't talk about using the train, you could ride a bicycle faster)?
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That’s some hares you’ve just set running there, NWW. I don’t think wuss fans will be happy, Sudbury would be interesting but don’t see it.
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I don't remember if that was due to a winding up order or because we were insolvent? I think there is a difference (but I am by no means an expert) in that you can petition the court for an extension / leniency to a Winding Up Order to give some breathing space and come up with a solution, whereas the other means you need to stop trading.
Nick Eastwood told me after the Ricoh move presentation at the Crowne Plaza in Marlow. If they had not received an elecronic payment in excess of £1M for unpaid tax, then they would have pulled the plugs on Wasps. And was seconds rather than minutes.
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That’s some hares you’ve just set running there, NWW. I don’t think wuss fans will be happy, Sudbury would be interesting but don’t see it.
The bottom lines are these.
Worcester long since came to the end of the line with regard to additional funds from their owners.
I do not know who 'owns' Sixways, but my guess is that it is mortgaged to the hilt. Thus, to buy the club, somebody has to buy the mortgage. My guess is, right now, if someone approached the mortgage holder with the right deal, that person could pull the rug from under the club and leave it with nowhere to play. The current owners would then be left with a relatively worthless brand and some expensive player contracts. It would all fold in a matter of minutes. The 'brand' would be worth as much as London Welsh is these days. Anybody care to remember that debacle?
Wasps are little better off. Whoever offers to clear the bond debts gets the CBS Arena, leaving Wasps as a debt ridden homeless club.
Leicester are also up for sale, also with large debts, but there I think the owner separately owns the stadium?
The fact is, nobody is stepping up to offer the money, and until the deal is sweet enough, nobody will. Wasps are at a real risk of losing their ground back to CCFC.
Times are hard, and will get harder, and the money men will not give a fig about fans.
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Nelly, you are way off the mark. I can assure you the bond situation is far from lost.
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Those at the RFU might welcome a trimming to 9 clubs say and then 5 or 6 for a continental league they can get their snouts into. Sarries, Tigers, Quins, Glaws, Bath, Bris would do them.
Of course, that could all end in another Hundred, a competition you could not pay me to watch, and whose very existence has me itching to cancel Sky or refuse my BBC fee. Still I can see cvc happy with a European league, even if no bugger in Wales would watch.
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This is absolutely terrible news and I feel for all supporters of the club.
I know the club is solely responsible for ensuring it has a sustainable business model, but I feel that the PRL should be ashamed.
They don't seem interested in making the game more profitable or reducing costs.
Instead, they allow teams to flagrantly abuse the rules so as to increase the running costs of all clubs who need to compete.
Yes, I'm turning this into another salary cap thread, but for years all clubs have had to stretch further beyond their means to try to stay in touch with others..... This is the end result
Neither premier rugby, nor the RFU care about the clubs unless they're vying for honours in Europe or supplying numerous players to the international side.... And it stinks.
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This is absolutely terrible news and I feel for all supporters of the club.
I know the club is solely responsible for ensuring it has a sustainable business model, but I feel that the PRL should be ashamed.
They don't seem interested in making the game more profitable or reducing costs.
Instead, they allow teams to flagrantly abuse the rules so as to increase the running costs of all clubs who need to compete.
Yes, I'm turning this into another salary cap thread, but for years all clubs have had to stretch further beyond their means to try to stay in touch with others..... This is the end result
Neither premier rugby, nor the RFU care about the clubs unless they're vying for honours in Europe or supplying numerous players to the international side.... And it stinks.
100% agree.
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That’s some hares you’ve just set running there, NWW. I don’t think wuss fans will be happy, Sudbury would be interesting but don’t see it.
The bottom lines are these.
Worcester long since came to the end of the line with regard to additional funds from their owners.
I do not know who 'owns' Sixways, but my guess is that it is mortgaged to the hilt. Thus, to buy the club, somebody has to buy the mortgage. My guess is, right now, if someone approached the mortgage holder with the right deal, that person could pull the rug from under the club and leave it with nowhere to play. The current owners would then be left with a relatively worthless brand and some expensive player contracts. It would all fold in a matter of minutes. The 'brand' would be worth as much as London Welsh is these days. Anybody care to remember that debacle?
Wasps are little better off. Whoever offers to clear the bond debts gets the CBS Arena, leaving Wasps as a debt ridden homeless club.
Leicester are also up for sale, also with large debts, but there I think the owner separately owns the stadium?
The fact is, nobody is stepping up to offer the money, and until the deal is sweet enough, nobody will. Wasps are at a real risk of losing their ground back to CCFC.
Times are hard, and will get harder, and the money men will not give a fig about fans.
NWW I don’t see that scenario. Whoever re-finances won’t own the CBS. They may well have first charge on it as security for the loan but that only comes into play if the loan or it’s covenants default. In amongst all the noise on the bond it’s always struck me that it is just finer detail that is outstanding and possibly another source has become involved. I’m sure many of us have been through these processes. Solicitors for multiple parties will be involved and the whole thing will take an inordinate amount of time. Running concurrently to this I imagine we’ve been advised that rather than keep giving periodic statements we should formally change the repayment date (obviously in the hands of bond holders). I expect they’ll agree as further info will accompany the consent solicitation. I may be wrong but that’s my gut feel.
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Nelly, you are way off the mark. I can assure you the bond situation is far from lost.
Yes, but you know me. Straw dolls in the air. Makes for a bit of fun in the close silly season. Unlike others here, I am not a 'sports' fan. I like Rugby. these days. Period.
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I really do hope they survive. This is terrible news for Wuss and the wider rugby family. Thinking of all their fans, especially the kids - how will they understand the loss of the team they support so dearly.
Let’s hope they can turn it around, but the whole league and business model is not working for anyone. Not sure what CVC has brought to the table, but unless they input some more cash soon they may not have much of an investment left (or are they hoping to ‘trim’ the premiership for a euro superleague)?
For now though all thoughts with Wuss.
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Plus 1
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That’s some hares you’ve just set running there, NWW. I don’t think wuss fans will be happy, Sudbury would be interesting but don’t see it.
The bottom lines are these.
Worcester long since came to the end of the line with regard to additional funds from their owners.
I do not know who 'owns' Sixways, but my guess is that it is mortgaged to the hilt. Thus, to buy the club, somebody has to buy the mortgage. My guess is, right now, if someone approached the mortgage holder with the right deal, that person could pull the rug from under the club and leave it with nowhere to play. The current owners would then be left with a relatively worthless brand and some expensive player contracts. It would all fold in a matter of minutes. The 'brand' would be worth as much as London Welsh is these days. Anybody care to remember that debacle?
Wasps are little better off. Whoever offers to clear the bond debts gets the CBS Arena, leaving Wasps as a debt ridden homeless club.
Leicester are also up for sale, also with large debts, but there I think the owner separately owns the stadium?
The fact is, nobody is stepping up to offer the money, and until the deal is sweet enough, nobody will. Wasps are at a real risk of losing their ground back to CCFC.
Times are hard, and will get harder, and the money men will not give a fig about fans.
The fact that Richardson has now sold all shares in the training ground on the day of the Bond Default is hardly a co-incidence despite the nonsense comment from Wasps when challenged on it
Thats asset protection before default risk.
Wasps RFC are on a sub lease to the Head Lease aren't they? I cannot believe he is not looking at ways of selling the Head Lease to another commercial entity - The council wouldn't object to assignment and for all parties it would be the best outcome
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/08/18/wasps-rugby-club-chased-hmrc-unpaid-tax-bill/?utm_content=rugby&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1660840108
Wasps Rugby club being chased by HMRC over unpaid tax bill
Premiership club pursued after not paying bill and comes after it missed £35m bond scheme repayment date
Wasps are being pursued by HM Revenue & Customs over an unpaid tax bill.
After Telegraph Sport revealed Worcester Warriors had been hit by a winding-up petition from HMRC, their midlands rivals were said to be another Premiership club being chased by the taxman.
Their chief executive, Stephen Vaughan, did not respond to repeated requests for comment, while HMRC declined to comment.
Unlike Worcester, HMRC is not currently seeking the liquidation of Wasps, whose owner, Derek Richardson, was forced to deny last week that the club was to enter administration amid suggestions to that effect on social media.
No Premiership club has gone bankrupt since 1999 but the coronavirus pandemic left some on the brink, with a Government bailout worth tens of millions of pounds seemingly not enough to ensure their survival.
Fears over Wasps’s future were raised in May after they announced a delay in repaying those to have invested in a £35 million bond scheme that helped bankroll their 2014 purchase of a 250-year lease on the Coventry Building Society Arena.
Those concerns were compounded the following month when they requested £13 million in public money from the West Midlands Combined Authority (WMCA) to help pay stadium costs.
The most recent set of accounts for Wasps Holdings, covering the year ending June 2021, showed it recorded a loss of £18.5 million over a two-year period and had net current liabilities of £54.7 million.
The bondholder debt was initially secured against the value of the stadium, which the accounts valued at £52.4 million.
Wasps are the only Premiership club whose Companies House filings do not include notification of a charge being issued against them for taking out a multi-million-pound loan under the Government’s Covid-19 Sports Winter Survival Package.
But Telegraph Sport has been told they did borrow money under the scheme and that, like other teams, their loan is a secured one.
At the weekend, Telegraph Sport revealed Wasps were facing possible legal action from Coventry City after their Coventry Building Society Arena tenants were forced to postpone a second home match this season over an “unsafe and unplayable” pitch.
On Wednesday, both clubs announced “extensive work” would take place on the playing surface this week and that a “six-figure investment” would be made into pitch improvements amid the postponement of a third Coventry home game this Saturday.
WMCA told Telegraph Sport Wasps’s request for public money was still under consideration, while Coventry City Council, which owns to freehold to the arena, said: “The city council, including through the chief executive and senior officers, has regular communication and dialogue with many businesses and this has been particularly important throughout the pandemic as the economic context has been incredibly challenging.
“Wasps have been one of these businesses.”
Worcester on Thursday night remained in dialogue with HMRC over its own unpaid bill, having previously said: “The club owners and board are fully committed to preserving top-flight professional rugby in Worcester and have been working on solutions to secure the financial future of Worcester Warriors and to pay outstanding tax owed to HMRC.
“A solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. Unfortunately, there have been unavoidable delays beyond the club’s control to the final tasks required to complete the funding.
“Having kept HMRC fully apprised of the situation, we are disappointed that they have taken the decision to issue a winding-up petition.”
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Just to say as well, in Wales we saw trimming of 5 regions to 4 when Warriors got the axe. Plus regionalisation when clubs like Ebbw Vale were swallowed up. And now we might see trimming further by all accounts.
Club rugby just does not seem stable in the pro era anywhere outside of Ireland and maybe France. Look what happened to the super rugby teams.
Fans seem to be the last consideration- it is cricket's "you will now support X, where X is a random selection of players for a month who play for totally different counties" attitude, but in reverse. Borders? Celtic Warriors? Jaguares? etc.
It is time the RFU stepped up, got their *****ing snouts out the trough, and started to get the money to the pro clubs and the championship clubs who provide the players needed for Eddie's crusade.I can take the best players being away with England. I can take having to buy Sky to watch tours. I can even take Stuart Barnes' one man global warming hot air producing machine and Amazon prime's attempt to split it all further and nick free to air stuff from C4. What I cannot get is how badly our game is run when the money is there, and blue chip sponsors line up to sponser the international game which is (or should be) thriving.
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This is interesting, it's a lot of words that amount to very little. Of course it could be we're about to go under but I doubt it.
Let's look at what they actually say.
Wasps are being pursued by HM Revenue & Customs over an unpaid tax bill.
After Telegraph Sport revealed Worcester Warriors had been hit by a winding-up petition from HMRC, their midlands rivals were said to be another Premiership club being chased by the taxman.
OK, so we are "said to be" late with a payment to HMRC. Its certainly possible we are, but said yo be is a little vague.
I'd like to go out on a limb and suggest that being late with payments to HMRC is pretty common, and that the majority if not all premiership clubs stretch the bounds of paying "on time" as much as they can.
Their chief executive, Stephen Vaughan, did not respond to repeated requests for comment, while HMRC declined to comment.
We sent a couple of emails to generic addresses and didn't hear anything back from either.
Unlike Worcester, HMRC is not currently seeking the liquidation of Wasps,
So this isn't actually a big problem
whose owner, Derek Richardson, was forced to deny last week that the club was to enter administration amid suggestions to that effect on social media.
There's a lot of bollocks on social media which has already been commented on but we want to bring it up again as it lends credence to this not very detailed article.
No Premiership club has gone bankrupt since 1999 but the coronavirus pandemic left some on the brink, with a Government bailout worth tens of millions of pounds seemingly not enough to ensure their survival.
Rugby is currently struggling en masses, but let's ignore that and focus on the club people are already talking about because that'll fuel the fires and get us more advertising revenue.
In fact now let's rehash all the current crap yo try to make it look like we have a case.
Blah blah fucking blah.
All it actually says is that we're struggling, we are in regular communication with the council, and we had a tiff with CCFC about the pitch.
Shoddy journalism...
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their midlands rivals were said to be another Premiership club being chased by the taxman.
Classic click bait.
Find a story that is factual and then use a statement in the passive voice to associate another story that is currently making headlines for other reasons.
Every finance director worth their bonus will be managing cash flow and pushing creditors to the limit. Maybe it’s unethical, especially where small businesses are concerned, but it’s a fact if life.
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If you are late paying HMRC, there is a set scale penalty system. There is no discussion, no negotiation. It isn't like other bills where you can stretch or delay payment by a day, a week, or a month. There is simply a due date. Miss it, there is a penalty. The longer you miss it by, and the greater the amount you fail to pay, the greater the penalty. So, there is no 'management'. If you have enough money to pay them, you do. My experience in insolvency work tells me that when a business gets behind paying HMRC, that is just before the last nail is hammered in to the coffin. That isn't to say that every organisation that gets behind ends there, but it is something that every financial director tries to avoid.
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When is the penny going to drop?
Professional club rugby in England is unsustainably unprofitable. If you keep making losses then either revenue has to go up or costs have to go down. It may well be hard on the players but if their job doesn't bring in enough income then they are being overpaid. Sugar daddies, if you can find one, are all well and good but they are not the long term answer.
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Agree about the general point re rugby. As for our specific tax “issue” it smacks of media snowballing. One story emerges and further assumptions are made on the back of it. Richardson went out on a limb about a week ago saying we weren’t heading into administration. If he knew HMRC were chewing his ear off he wouldn’t have made that statement.
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Agree about the general point re rugby. As for our specific tax “issue” it smacks of media snowballing. One story emerges and further assumptions are made on the back of it. Richardson went out on a limb about a week ago saying we weren’t heading into administration. If he knew HMRC were chewing his ear off he wouldn’t have made that statement.
For balance, the report says that wasps “ were said to be”. Said by whom?
In terms of what Richardson has told the press, with £35m of bonds to repay with foreclosure on mortgages on pretty much everything, as Mandy Rice-Davies put it - he would say that, wouldn’t he.
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No, I think he’d just say nothing.
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No, I think he’d just say nothing.
Agreed, keeps his cards close to his chest.
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Agree about the general point re rugby. As for our specific tax “issue” it smacks of media snowballing. One story emerges and further assumptions are made on the back of it. Richardson went out on a limb about a week ago saying we weren’t heading into administration. If he knew HMRC were chewing his ear off he wouldn’t have made that statement.
For balance, the report says that wasps “ were said to be”. Said by whom?
@covtillidie683636635 on Twitter who heard it in the pub from someone who's dog groomers aunt's partner's colleague's mechanic saw someone looking at bit Derek Richardson, but with a Welsh accent in a TK Max probably...
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No, I think he’d just say nothing.
Hypothetically, how do you think this would have been received
Derek Richardson replied “no comment” when asked if he had anything to say to worried holders of the £35 million of Wasps bonds which are in default amidst concerns about a number of other financial issues Wasps are facing.
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Out of the loop for five minutes and something else crops up. This stuff comes at you fast now!
It's just a nothing story, isn't it? HMRC haven't issued any order against Wasps and the rest is all click-bait? Obviously feel for the Worcester fans, but this is just a "ooh, Wasps are mentioned too" piece, isn't it?
Can't wait for the bloody season to start so we can all talk about rugby instead.
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Wasps (generic) response in updated article
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-being-chased-hmrc-24795511
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Does having concerts and other events make enough money to run the stadium. Obviously the last 2 1/2 years has made it difficult for any real income stream, I just don’t know enough about how much money the the stadium can generate.
It sounds positive that they are saying it has a lot of bookings, I just hope we can get more and the money from it helps our situation.
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Out of the loop for five minutes and something else crops up. This stuff comes at you fast now!
It's just a nothing story, isn't it? HMRC haven't issued any order against Wasps and the rest is all click-bait? Obviously feel for the Worcester fans, but this is just a "ooh, Wasps are mentioned too" piece, isn't it?
Can't wait for the bloody season to start so we can all talk about rugby instead.
Agreed. Complete non story. I suspect the list of sports teams on the payment scheme with HMRC would be extensive.
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Telegraph 'Sport: Headed Worcester Warriors: Very small piece 'apologising' - The headline of our article about Worcester Warriors incorrectly stated they have received a winding-up order. In fact. as reported in this article, they have received a winding-up petition and the club have stated that a solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. We apologise for the error in our headline. - The motto of this sorry story is "Never listen listen to Chinese whispers. Or newspapers".
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Telegraph 'Sport: Headed Worcester Warriors: Very small piece 'apologising' - The headline of our article about Worcester Warriors incorrectly stated they have received a winding-up order. In fact. as reported in this article, they have received a winding-up petition and the club have stated that a solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. We apologise for the error in our headline. - The motto of this sorry story is "Never listen listen to Chinese whispers. Or newspapers".
To be fair, that’s really bad.
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Telegraph 'Sport: Headed Worcester Warriors: Very small piece 'apologising' - The headline of our article about Worcester Warriors incorrectly stated they have received a winding-up order. In fact. as reported in this article, they have received a winding-up petition and the club have stated that a solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. We apologise for the error in our headline. - The motto of this sorry story is "Never listen listen to Chinese whispers. Or newspapers".
Wonky - Can you point me in the direction of this 'apology'. Haven't found it online. Thanks.
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Telegraph 'Sport: Headed Worcester Warriors: Very small piece 'apologising' - The headline of our article about Worcester Warriors incorrectly stated they have received a winding-up order. In fact. as reported in this article, they have received a winding-up petition and the club have stated that a solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. We apologise for the error in our headline. - The motto of this sorry story is "Never listen listen to Chinese whispers. Or newspapers".
Wonky - Can you point me in the direction of this 'apology'. Haven't found it online. Thanks.
Do just an article digging a bigger hole for us. You would almost think Gilbert was party to it.
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The offending article is in the Daily Telegraph today, Sport Section, page one, bottom righthand corner. Next
to it (bottom left)_ is "Wasps chased by HMRC over unpaid tax demand".Exclusive. Ben Rumsby. Sport Investigation Reporter
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Sorry I'm late replying ... getting lunch plus washing up.
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Wonky is that the print version?
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Yes Neil. The bit about Wasps continues onto page 5 and is (to my mind anyway) cunningly slanted to make the worst of everything.
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Yes Neil. The bit about Wasps continues onto page 5 and is (to my mind anyway) cunningly slanted to make the worst of everything.
All based on Gilbert.
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What you do realise when you follow something like this is how little actual journalism goes on.
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Telegraph 'Sport: Headed Worcester Warriors: Very small piece 'apologising' - The headline of our article about Worcester Warriors incorrectly stated they have received a winding-up order. In fact. as reported in this article, they have received a winding-up petition and the club have stated that a solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. We apologise for the error in our headline. - The motto of this sorry story is "Never listen listen to Chinese whispers. Or newspapers".
It’s interesting that Gilbert is being demonised by Wasps supporters now as much as he was by Sky blues supporters nearly a decade ago. Perhaps he just reports stuff as he finds it.
Wonky - Can you point me in the direction of this 'apology'. Haven't found it online. Thanks.
Do just an article digging a bigger hole for us. You would almost think Gilbert was party to it.
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All based on Gilbert.
Forgive my ignorance, but who is this Simon Gilbert chap?
Thanks
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Wasps respond to reports of 'being chased' by HMRC over unpaid tax bill
Report by Bobby Bridge, updated 08:43, this morning (19.08.22)
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-being-chased-hmrc-24795511 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-being-chased-hmrc-24795511)
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BAGS ... I suggest you google him! He probably sleeps in SkyBlue pyjamas with a SkyBlue teddy bear.
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BAGS ... I suggest you google him! He probably sleeps in SkyBlue pyjamas with a SkyBlue teddy bear.
It’s not that long ago that it was thought he slept in Black and gold pjs with a similarly hued gonk.
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BAGS ... I suggest you google him! He probably sleeps in SkyBlue pyjamas with a SkyBlue teddy bear.
It’s not that long ago that it was thought he slept in Black and gold pjs with a similarly hued gonk.
He's got to have at least two pairs, otherwise he's a dirty bugger. I wonder if he has two matching gonks as well? The mind boggles.
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He's a mediocre journo in search of a reputation. He's so desperate to break a big story that he will jump on any bandwagon and try to make it into something it isn't.
When SISU were playing games with CCFC he was all over that, now they've got a grip on their PR he switched to attacking Wasps.
It's always an issue when a journalist gets paid by the story, not by the month. He has to write something so he takes the path of least resistance. Rehashing the same rumours again and again, spinning every little statement into a "big scoop".
"We emailed Steve Vaughan multiple times and he has refused to talk to us."
When the truth is actually.
"We emailed Steve Vaughan several times in the height of summer when there was no rugby and he was on holiday."
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;D
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Only Gilbert can take a simple statement about talking g to HMRC like most going concerns and spin it against us. A bit aggrieved that his thousands of demands are being ignored.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62609971
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I’d like to think an accurate statement would be “We tried to contact Steven Vaughan several times but he was far too busy running the company to engage in pointless dialogue that will only be spun and relates to regurgitated speculation, most of which he’s already addressed”.
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If you get up someone's nose then don't expect favours.
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I’d like to think an accurate statement would be “We tried to contact Steven Vaughan several times but he was far too busy running the company to engage in pointless dialogue that will only be spun and relates to regurgitated speculation, most of which he’s already addressed”.
He genuinely has been on holiday. I have no doubt if there was an actual emergency he'd be on it like a shot, but this is not even close.
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Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis, Sports Editor @worcesternews. 1020 this AM.
Warriors update: "So it sounds very much as if the club will go into administration, likely to be public knowledge on Monday morning.
There remains concern about the fact Warriors the club and land are now separate businesses. Makes it tricky for a buyer if that’s the case."
Very worrying for all at Wuss if this is actually going to happen. M C-F is a creditable journalist.
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Hope there is a way through it for them.
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Rugby Times writer comment on Worcs and Wasps.
https://twitter.com/RugbyTimes/status/1561008864979550208?t=CDpl7hyGyXpyqgoS9TshZw&s=19
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Rugby Times writer comment on Worcs and Wasps.
https://twitter.com/RugbyTimes/status/1561008864979550208?t=CDpl7hyGyXpyqgoS9TshZw&s=19
Lol! Sounds like someone is desperate for a bit of attention.
I could just as easily say I've spoken to someone at the club today and they are expecting millions of pounds of currently un-announced revenue to be confirmed soon.
It might be true, but no-one could possibly know for sure. Because it isn't negative and goes against the current theme everyone would assume I was talking rubbish.
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Rugby Times writer comment on Worcs and Wasps.
https://twitter.com/RugbyTimes/status/1561008864979550208?t=CDpl7hyGyXpyqgoS9TshZw&s=19
That's a damn fool thing to write - a month off the beginning of the season. Nothing but idle speculation. Piss poor journalism.
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Rugby Times writer comment on Worcs and Wasps.
https://twitter.com/RugbyTimes/status/1561008864979550208?t=CDpl7hyGyXpyqgoS9TshZw&s=19
That's a damn fool thing to write - a month off the beginning of the season. Nothing but idle speculation. Piss poor journalism.
Newcombe has always been pretty clued up on Wasps affairs often the source of transfers particularly the ones in the past couple of seasons from the championship, not saying he is right but also much as I would like to not an easy one to dismiss like some others.
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Rugby Times writer comment on Worcs and Wasps.
https://twitter.com/RugbyTimes/status/1561008864979550208?t=CDpl7hyGyXpyqgoS9TshZw&s=19
That's a damn fool thing to write - a month off the beginning of the season. Nothing but idle speculation. Piss poor journalism.
Newcombe has always been pretty clued up on Wasps affairs often the source of transfers particularly the ones in the past couple of seasons from the championship, not saying he is right but also much as I would like to not an easy one to dismiss like some others.
Clued up enough to know what financial cushion Wasps have, what's currently in the bank, what potential liquidity there is if they need it, what's in the pipeline for the next few weeks, and what the significant shareholders are willing to loan?
I suspect anyone that claims that knowledge and isn't on the board is a liar.
This is just shit stirring and I'm starting to wonder who it is that is driving an obvious vendetta.
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"loving being back in the West Country after many years away"
Taken from Newcombe's twitter profile. Now where in the West Country could that be - Gloucester? (our 1st Prem game), Bristol? (our 2nd Prem game), Bath? (3rd Prem game) or Exeter? (5th Prem game). Nothing like trying to undermine team morale before the season gets going.
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Rugby Times writer comment on Worcs and Wasps.
https://twitter.com/RugbyTimes/status/1561008864979550208?t=CDpl7hyGyXpyqgoS9TshZw&s=19
That's a damn fool thing to write - a month off the beginning of the season. Nothing but idle speculation. Piss poor journalism.
Newcombe has always been pretty clued up on Wasps affairs often the source of transfers particularly the ones in the past couple of seasons from the championship, not saying he is right but also much as I would like to not an easy one to dismiss like some others.
Clued up enough to know what financial cushion Wasps have, what's currently in the bank, what potential liquidity there is if they need it, what's in the pipeline for the next few weeks, and what the significant shareholders are willing to loan?
I suspect anyone that claims that knowledge and isn't on the board is a liar.
This is just shit stirring and I'm starting to wonder who it is that is driving an obvious vendetta.
I don’t think any individual is driving an agenda VV. I think it’s just a combination of abject lazy journalism and the need to supply column inches. If you take the bond issue, the pitch and HMRC I’ve read the same thing in 10-15 media locations on each issue. There’s nothing new in any of them. And some are presented 2-3 days after the first iteration. If it’s Ruck it can be a week. So it creates a news “swirl”. The press are now convinced Wasps is a story to be had and will keep digging like the parasites they are. That is until a rumour about a different team/sport emerges and we’ll be yesterdays news. The facts play little part in any of it. The whole process has confirmed to me how terrible our press outlets are. I believe Wasps are in good hands and I hope those in control continue to push forward with building the club rather than feeling the need to react to every regurgitated rumour.
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Rugby Times writer comment on Worcs and Wasps.
https://twitter.com/RugbyTimes/status/1561008864979550208?t=CDpl7hyGyXpyqgoS9TshZw&s=19
That's a damn fool thing to write - a month off the beginning of the season. Nothing but idle speculation. Piss poor journalism.
Newcombe has always been pretty clued up on Wasps affairs often the source of transfers particularly the ones in the past couple of seasons from the championship, not saying he is right but also much as I would like to not an easy one to dismiss like some others.
Clued up enough to know what financial cushion Wasps have, what's currently in the bank, what potential liquidity there is if they need it, what's in the pipeline for the next few weeks, and what the significant shareholders are willing to loan?
I suspect anyone that claims that knowledge and isn't on the board is a liar.
This is just shit stirring and I'm starting to wonder who it is that is driving an obvious vendetta.
I don’t think any individual is driving an agenda VV. I think it’s just a combination of abject lazy journalism and the need to supply column inches. If you take the bond issue, the pitch and HMRC I’ve read the same thing in 10-15 media locations on each issue. There’s nothing new in any of them. And some are presented 2-3 days after the first iteration. If it’s Ruck it can be a week. So it creates a news “swirl”. The press are now convinced Wasps is a story to be had and will keep digging like the parasites they are. That is until a rumour about a different team/sport emerges and we’ll be yesterdays news. The facts play little part in any of it. The whole process has confirmed to me how terrible our press outlets are. I believe Wasps are in good hands and I hope those in control continue to push forward with building the club rather than feeling the need to react to every regurgitated rumour.
This will shock you Shugs, but I agree with much of what you say. As soon as the bonds weren’t repaid, it will have alerted the media to potential issues at Wasps. I genuinely think that the pitch issue was mishandled and raised more concerns about the financial position.
However it is not uncommon to read the same thing in multiple media outlets , I’m pretty sure the Jubilee was covered in very news media outlet in the land, so that can hardly be a cause for complaint. Yes, the media are convinced there a story to be had and will keep digging - again it’s what they do and many a potential scandal has been uncovered or disproved because of it. I hate clickbait journalism, the CT are prime examples where they recycle the same story but with numerous different enticing headlines.
Another story may come along to displace Wasps from being the centre of attention. However, there is the next chapter in the bonds saga to come.
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TRP front page Fissler! Nothing new except HMRC looking at a Northern and a SW Club as well.
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Tweet from Chris Jones, rugby journo.
Premiership rugby club Worcester Warriors is set to enter administration, putting £14 million of taxpayer funds at risk. Steve Diamond tells Sunday Times
@TimesSport
if salaries not paid in 10 days with club in administration players could look for new clubs
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Reading the contents of the email circulated to our STHs, there would appear to be a pretty positive view going forward.
The club have done the right thing in keeping stum regarding what has been happening behind the scenes. And doing so to such an extent, that the 4th estate have to clutch at straws and fabricate something that thay think is a headline with an edge.
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Reading the contents of the email circulated to our STHs, there would appear to be a pretty positive view going forward.
The club have done the right thing in keeping stum regarding what has been happening behind the scenes. And doing so to such an extent, that the 4th estate have to clutch at straws and fabricate something that thay think is a headline with an edge.
Commercial side of any business normally operates in isolation
Worcester also have a “business as usual” approach
https://twitter.com/WorcsWarriors/status/1560354903595286529?s=20&t=VUPQr6VrGsTslZJZupTp0w
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Imo Heathen is pretty close to the truth.
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https://texttospeech.uk/premier-league-clubs-get-124m-in-taxpayer-money/
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This article is pretty eye watering. The sport got more Covid bail outs than any other
Worcester seem pretty certain to go into administration next week owing £14 m of public money.
https://texttospeech.uk/premier-league-clubs-get-124m-in-taxpayer-money/
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Snap
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Telegraph 'Sport: Headed Worcester Warriors: Very small piece 'apologising' - The headline of our article about Worcester Warriors incorrectly stated they have received a winding-up order. In fact. as reported in this article, they have received a winding-up petition and the club have stated that a solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. We apologise for the error in our headline. - The motto of this sorry story is "Never listen listen to Chinese whispers. Or newspapers".
It’s hardly Chinese whispers. A winding up petition is when a creditor is requesting an order for non payment. The figure will be significant and the HMRC will have made requests for payment which have been refused
Worcester acknowledge the action is in progress and a court will judge if there is any hope of payment
What nearly always actually happens is the winding up petition leads to administration- this is likely to happen next week with the tax bill believed to be £6 million
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So if Worcester go into administration what does that mean for the league, in practical terms?
I assume they won't be alllowed to fulfil their fixtures?
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So if Worcester go into administration what does that mean for the league, in practical terms?
I assume they won't be alllowed to fulfil their fixtures?
We are due to play Worcester at the CBS on Christmas Eve - by far our most lucrative fixture of the season ☹️
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Telegraph are saying that if all clubs agree to it there will be a salary cap dispensation for clubs to sign any Worcester players if the club go into administration.
Hopefully our transfer block could be lifted for a few options there?
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Yes, saw that. All a bit distasteful at the moment- almost picking over the bones before they’ve had it. I suppose it will help the players but not the club. As far as we’re concerned the obvious target for me would be Lawrence. But I genuinely hope Wuss survive.
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Telegraph are saying that if all clubs agree to it there will be a salary cap dispensation for clubs to sign any Worcester players if the club go into administration.
Hopefully our transfer block could be lifted for a few options there?
Be tough on players at all clubs who have already been let go because of salary cap restrictions.
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Telegraph are saying that if all clubs agree to it there will be a salary cap dispensation for clubs to sign any Worcester players if the club go into administration.
Hopefully our transfer block could be lifted for a few options there?
Be tough on players at all clubs who have already been let go because of salary cap restrictions.
Indeed.
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Yes, saw that. All a bit distasteful at the moment- almost picking over the bones before they’ve had it. I suppose it will help the players but not the club. As far as we’re concerned the obvious target for me would be Lawrence. But I genuinely hope Wuss survive.
Likewise, think it's all a bit distateful. Having said that, Duhan van der Merwe, anyone?
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I have to say this, I’m afraid. Shouldn’t Wasps sort out their own financial issues before taking on more expense in the form of players?
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Yes- but that does not mean we have to start making profit - because almost none of the league does. We certainly need stability.
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I have to say this, I’m afraid. Shouldn’t Wasps sort out their own financial issues before taking on more expense in the form of players?
I'm not sure not having players is a good way to sort the club. Getting more players in and starting to win is exactly what we need. Along with more conferences, more concerts, and fewer litigious tenants.
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It's harsh but it's business
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I have to say this, I’m afraid. Shouldn’t Wasps sort out their own financial issues before taking on more expense in the form of players?
I'm not sure not having players is a good way to sort the club. Getting more players in and starting to win is exactly what we need. Along with more conferences, more concerts, and fewer litigious tenants.
You know I didn’t mean no players.
I don’t think your tenants had the intention of being litigious but if a landlord’s acts of omission result in financial loss, they are likely to be.
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To suggest they are not litigious is frankly laughable. It’s their modus operandi. Always has been and always will.
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To suggest they are not litigious is frankly laughable. It’s their modus operandi. Always has been and always will.
Batter in court?? LOL.
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To suggest they are not litigious is frankly laughable. It’s their modus operandi. Always has been and always will.
Batter in court?? LOL.
Agree with the LOL. But still don’t think they returned to Coventry with litigation in mind.
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Maybe not with ‘litigation in mind’ but SISU have ‘previous’ and it would be no surprise to anybody if that’s the route they took.
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Maybe not with ‘litigation in mind’ but SISU have ‘previous’ and it would be no surprise to anybody if that’s the route they took.
IF wasps have not kept to the terms of the lease agreement and IF CCFC suffer financial loss, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to seek to recover that loss from Wasps. I’m sure you would expect Wasps to do so if the positions were reversed.
Let’s hope there’s no points deduction, can you imagine the size of the claim if promotion was missed by less than the number of points deducted?
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But surely ccfc weren't our tenants when any agreements were made with the CGs? I would hope, however, that when the proposed tenancy agreement was later (many many months later) finalised that surely CCFC were aware of the forthcoming 7s matches, and when?
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Maybe not with ‘litigation in mind’ but SISU have ‘previous’ and it would be no surprise to anybody if that’s the route they took.
IF wasps have not kept to the terms of the lease agreement and IF CCFC suffer financial loss, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to seek to recover that loss from Wasps. I’m sure you would expect Wasps to do so if the positions were reversed.
Let’s hope there’s no points deduction, can you imagine the size of the claim if promotion was missed by less than the number of points deducted?
I don’t think you need to worry about that.
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But surely ccfc weren't our tenants when any agreements were made with the CGs? I would hope, however, that when the proposed tenancy agreement was later (many many months later) finalised that surely CCFC were aware of the forthcoming 7s matches, and when?
Wasps were obviously aware of when the CGs were being held and still said publicly that a new pitch would be installed. Surely it would have been for Wasps to have made clear that there might be an issue and reflect that formally in the lease, rather than end up with two mutually exclusive agreements. I think wasps were surprised at the amount of damage caused to the pitch, certain rugby fans seemed to be, and similar events in football stadia didn’t result in a pitch unsafe for football. But perhaps those pitches had been adequately maintained beforehand. I’m not sure that caveat emptor applies here.
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Maybe not with ‘litigation in mind’ but SISU have ‘previous’ and it would be no surprise to anybody if that’s the route they took.
IF wasps have not kept to the terms of the lease agreement and IF CCFC suffer financial loss, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to seek to recover that loss from Wasps. I’m sure you would expect Wasps to do so if the positions were reversed.
Let’s hope there’s no points deduction, can you imagine the size of the claim if promotion was missed by less than the number of points deducted?
I don’t think you need to worry about that.
I’m trying not to - the points deduction I mean which no doubt isn’t what you mean. But you are probably right.
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But surely ccfc weren't our tenants when any agreements were made with the CGs? I would hope, however, that when the proposed tenancy agreement was later (many many months later) finalised that surely CCFC were aware of the forthcoming 7s matches, and when?
Wasps were obviously aware of when the CGs were being held and still said publicly that a new pitch would be installed. Surely it would have been for Wasps to have made clear that there might be an issue and reflect that formally in the lease, rather than end up with two mutually exclusive agreements. I think wasps were surprised at the amount of damage caused to the pitch, certain rugby fans seemed to be, and similar events in football stadia didn’t result in a pitch unsafe for football. But perhaps those pitches had been adequately maintained beforehand. I’m not sure that caveat emptor applies here.
THe agreement for CCFC to play at the CBSA would have stipulated the Concert date, the CWG period of exclusivity and the WRLC period (yet to play) so they certainly will have known about it all. A bit like knowing about all the S Stand builder work last season. It is not for the greater Wasps entity (whatever that is) to liaise with the EFL - that is a CCFC responsibility. This cock up would suggest that the "Please sir our pitch will be in use early in the season so can we have a venue adjustment in August" didn't occur or they were given a flea in their ear. Wasps have played a blinder not knowing what a pitch is though :) :)
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But surely ccfc weren't our tenants when any agreements were made with the CGs? I would hope, however, that when the proposed tenancy agreement was later (many many months later) finalised that surely CCFC were aware of the forthcoming 7s matches, and when?
Wasps were obviously aware of when the CGs were being held and still said publicly that a new pitch would be installed. Surely it would have been for Wasps to have made clear that there might be an issue and reflect that formally in the lease, rather than end up with two mutually exclusive agreements. I think wasps were surprised at the amount of damage caused to the pitch, certain rugby fans seemed to be, and similar events in football stadia didn’t result in a pitch unsafe for football. But perhaps those pitches had been adequately maintained beforehand. I’m not sure that caveat emptor applies here.
THe agreement for CCFC to play at the CBSA would have stipulated the Concert date, the CWG period of exclusivity and the WRLC period (yet to play) so they certainly will have known about it all. A bit like knowing about all the S Stand builder work last season. It is not for the greater Wasps entity (whatever that is) to liaise with the EFL - that is a CCFC responsibility. This cock up would suggest that the "Please sir our pitch will be in use early in the season so can we have a venue adjustment in August" didn't occur or they were given a flea in their ear. Wasps have played a blinder not knowing what a pitch is though :) :)
I think they do, but chose the wrong option to present (out of grass, sand, clay or snow).
Apparently you can’t play rugby on asphalt, big softies 😀
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Thanks Neils. That's what I thought, but didn't put too well. Much appreciated.
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As an aside and certainly not recommended we saw Wasps play a game amongst themselves on a tarmac and oncrete car park in Issoire a few years ago. They were fully covered though. Warm up with a difference.
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A general comment, FWIW, about how I view the situation reference the ccfc deal.
Derek is a very shrewd and successful businessman. The one thing very successful people know how to do is identify high achievers to work for them and from what we've seen he's done that with Wasps.
I don't believe that Wasps went in to the negotiations with ccfc with their eyes closed and I feel confident that the agreement will have just as many, if not more, protections for Wasps than ccfc. The fact that Andy Street is the appointed mediator, and he's the one who brought them together, adds to that confidence. They obviously envisaged problems and had a credible solution. I'd be willing to put money on it that this was at Wasps' insistence.
So I'm not looking on at all this with doom and gloom, I just see it as teething problems and I think the road is going to be rocky for a few years but both sides will learn how to get on and make it work.
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As an aside, one thing that has puzzled me is that the EFL and their appointees said that the pitch is unsafe for the officials. What's the difference between rugby refs and football refs that makes this so?
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As an aside, one thing that has puzzled me is that the EFL and their appointees said that the pitch is unsafe for the officials. What's the difference between rugby refs and football refs that makes this so?
It was said to be Linesmen ( but the report hasn't been made public) which puzzled me as they (footy) only run half the length. The sidelines looked in good nick after the 7s.
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Once the EFL came to look it was doomed as mega litigation panic would have set in - especially with CCFC’s owners in the picture. If someone turns an ankle or worse whoever signed it off would have been “battered in court”. So, they didn’t sign it off.
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A general comment, FWIW, about how I view the situation reference the ccfc deal.
Derek is a very shrewd and successful businessman. The one thing very successful people know how to do is identify high achievers to work for them and from what we've seen he's done that with Wasps.
I don't believe that Wasps went in to the negotiations with ccfc with their eyes closed and I feel confident that the agreement will have just as many, if not more, protections for Wasps than ccfc. The fact that Andy Street is the appointed mediator, and he's the one who brought them together, adds to that confidence. They obviously envisaged problems and had a credible solution. I'd be willing to put money on it that this was at Wasps' insistence.
So I'm not looking on at all this with doom and gloom, I just see it as teething problems and I think the road is going to be rocky for a few years but both sides will learn how to get on and make it work.
If they had envisaged problems and had a credible solution, why did they appear to be in denial that there was a problem? At le@st one home game could have been saved, possibly two.
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Once the EFL came to look it was doomed as mega litigation panic would have set in - especially with CCFC’s owners in the picture. If someone turns an ankle or worse whoever signed it off would have been “battered in court”. So, they didn’t sign it off.
Speculation, the alternative is that the pitch was crap.
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Crap, but probably playable. People have coped with far, far worse for many years. But Robins wanted it carpet like so that his centre halves could roll it about to each other for 90 minutes.
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I have to say this, I’m afraid. Shouldn’t Wasps sort out their own financial issues before taking on more expense in the form of players?
I'm not sure not having players is a good way to sort the club. Getting more players in and starting to win is exactly what we need. Along with more conferences, more concerts, and fewer litigious tenants.
Don’t see how conferences and concerts make much money if the last 17 years are anything to go buy and I’m sure this litigious tenant will be in the revenue for version 28 of the growth plan to try and stop the bond holders pressing the button
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Yes, the litigious tenant will be in there. To a small degree I’d think. One of the biggest benefits compared to previous years will be the absence of pointless, repetitive legal bills defending ourselves.
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Bring back a super pitch like Highfield Road
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Highfield_Road_-_geograph-2008790.jpg/1280px-Highfield_Road_-_geograph-2008790.jpg)
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Crap, but probably playable. People have coped with far, far worse for many years. But Robins wanted it carpet like so that his centre halves could roll it about to each other for 90 minutes.
Unsafe said the independent agronomist, so not playable.
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Bring back a super pitch like Highfield Road
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Highfield_Road_-_geograph-2008790.jpg/1280px-Highfield_Road_-_geograph-2008790.jpg)
Couldn’t you have found one with the slope?
Football is a lot more technical game and faster now. Rugby is as well, isn’t it?
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Crap, but probably playable. People have coped with far, far worse for many years. But Robins wanted it carpet like so that his centre halves could roll it about to each other for 90 minutes.
Unsafe said the independent agronomist, so not playable.
Independent agronomist who wouldn’t want to be sued if someone rolled an ankle.
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Some potential hope for Worcester: https://twitter.com/Mcossalifrancis/status/1561432046089768963?t=C4kGTqyvkk7vuz4OH4rShw&s=19
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Crap, but probably playable. People have coped with far, far worse for many years. But Robins wanted it carpet like so that his centre halves could roll it about to each other for 90 minutes.
Unsafe said the independent agronomist, so not playable.
Independent agronomist who wouldn’t want to be sued if someone rolled an ankle.
Indeed. I’ve just been looking up exactly what an agronomist did (I knew really because I’m a golfer) and anted to see if there is a H&S part of it. There doesn’t appear to be.
But TBF, Sam claims Wasps agreed to it.
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Don’t see how conferences and concerts make much money if the last 17 years are anything to go buy and I’m sure this litigious tenant will be in the revenue for version 28 of the growth plan to try and stop the bond holders pressing the button
You don't see how they make much money?
It's been a long time since I worked in entertainment, but it used to be something along the lines of an act pays a fee for the venue, but takes the majority of the ticket moneys. Food and drink, parking, hotels etc go to the venue.
With a capacity of 40k you don't have to be brain of Britain to see the revenue stacking up pretty quickly.
40k people paying £50 a piece is £2M for the act, and the average spend on site doesn't have to be very much to be very valuable indeed.
Sports fans may drink more but none of the girl power brigade whine about how the Spice Girls really should own the stadium.
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Crap, but probably playable. People have coped with far, far worse for many years. But Robins wanted it carpet like so that his centre halves could roll it about to each other for 90 minutes.
Unsafe said the independent agronomist, so not playable.
Independent agronomist who wouldn’t want to be sued if someone rolled an ankle.
Indeed. I’ve just been looking up exactly what an agronomist did (I knew really because I’m a golfer) and anted to see if there is a H&S part of it. There doesn’t appear to be.
But TBF, Sam claims Wasps agreed to it.
Why didn't they consult some players?
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Crap, but probably playable. People have coped with far, far worse for many years. But Robins wanted it carpet like so that his centre halves could roll it about to each other for 90 minutes.
Unsafe said the independent agronomist, so not playable.
Independent agronomist who wouldn’t want to be sued if someone rolled an ankle.
Indeed. I’ve just been looking up exactly what an agronomist did (I knew really because I’m a golfer) and anted to see if there is a H&S part of it. There doesn’t appear to be.
But TBF, Sam claims Wasps agreed to it.
It was Steven Vaughan who said they had agreed to it - We have agreed that an independent agronomist selected by the EFL can come to the Arena and carry out their own inspection of the pitch- from Wasps official site.
So I am not merely making a claim, It was a fact.
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Don’t see how conferences and concerts make much money if the last 17 years are anything to go buy and I’m sure this litigious tenant will be in the revenue for version 28 of the growth plan to try and stop the bond holders pressing the button
Sports fans may drink more but none of the girl power brigade whine about how the Spice Girls really should own the stadium.
Fatuous statement.
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Don’t see how conferences and concerts make much money if the last 17 years are anything to go buy and I’m sure this litigious tenant will be in the revenue for version 28 of the growth plan to try and stop the bond holders pressing the button
Sports fans may drink more but none of the girl power brigade whine about how the Spice Girls really should own the stadium.
Fatuous statement.
Both accurate and relevant I'd say.
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Don’t see how conferences and concerts make much money if the last 17 years are anything to go buy and I’m sure this litigious tenant will be in the revenue for version 28 of the growth plan to try and stop the bond holders pressing the button
Sports fans may drink more but none of the girl power brigade whine about how the Spice Girls really should own the stadium.
Fatuous statement.
Both accurate and relevant I'd say.
On reflection both statements are true, but the second one is also fatuous. The plaque on the stadium says that it provides a stadium for CCFC, not the Spice Girls.
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Another nickname for CCFC, The Spice Girls😆
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Like it
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Twitter thread about some of the corporate goings-on at Worcester, and the changing of hands of the various parcels of land:
https://twitter.com/jamespearson88/status/1561563247018446848
Sounds very iffy. Not something of which Cecil Duckworth would have approved, I think.
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Another nickname for CCFC, The Spice Girls😆
They could form a new version made up of Litigation Spice, Whiny Spice, Entitled Spice, Bitter Spice and Delicate Spice. It’s everything for nothing that they want, that they really, really want.
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That’s very good, Shugs.
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Twitter thread about some of the corporate goings-on at Worcester, and the changing of hands of the various parcels of land:
https://twitter.com/jamespearson88/status/1561563247018446848
Sounds very iffy. Not something of which Cecil Duckworth would have approved, I think.
Sounds familiar
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Twitter thread about some of the corporate goings-on at Worcester, and the changing of hands of the various parcels of land:
https://twitter.com/jamespearson88/status/1561563247018446848
Sounds very iffy. Not something of which Cecil Duckworth would have approved, I think.
Sounds familiar
Yes - classic SISU modus operandi. ;D
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Another nickname for CCFC, The Spice Girls😆
They could form a new version made up of Litigation Spice, Whiny Spice, Entitled Spice, Bitter Spice and Delicate Spice. It’s everything for nothing that they want, that they really, really want.
Excellent!! ;D ;D ;D
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Twitter thread about some of the corporate goings-on at Worcester, and the changing of hands of the various parcels of land:
https://twitter.com/jamespearson88/status/1561563247018446848
Sounds very iffy. Not something of which Cecil Duckworth would have approved, I think.
If the club enters any form of insolvency, assets sales and transfers at undervalue can be reversed by the court, or the new owner forced to pay real value.
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I was chatting to a friend who supports Worcester and we were looking at the owners on Companies House. I counted 11 seperate businesses linked directly to Worcester that one owner has been a director of in the last 3 years.
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From the Beeb:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62630861 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62630861)
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Interesting find by Charlie Morgan https://twitter.com/charliefelix/status/1561442970510974979?s=21&t=u_nKy9csteg_PGdvdvt31w
5.5.9 Upon an affected Club’s application the RFU may in its absolute discretion reduce or waive in its entirety any sanction that would otherwise apply to a Club under Regulations 5.5.5 to 5.5.8 where it is satisfied that the Insolvency Event would not have occurred but for an event or circumstance which was beyond the control and without the fault or negligence of the affected Club and which by the exercise of reasonable diligence the affected Club was unable to prevent, including (but not limited to): riot, war, invasion, act of foreign enemies, acts of terrorism, earthquakes, flood, fire or other physical natural disaster, strikes at national level or industrial disputes at a national level and any epidemic or pandemic as categorised as such by the UK Government and/or the World Health Organisation.
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I was chatting to a friend who supports Worcester and we were looking at the owners on Companies House. I counted 11 seperate businesses linked directly to Worcester that one owner has been a director of in the last 3 years.
Crikey, Derek has only got 6 based out of the CBS arena.
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That looks a big mess.
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I was chatting to a friend who supports Worcester and we were looking at the owners on Companies House. I counted 11 seperate businesses linked directly to Worcester that one owner has been a director of in the last 3 years.
Crikey, Derek has only got 6 based out of the CBS arena.
Excellent news.
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Interesting find by Charlie Morgan https://twitter.com/charliefelix/status/1561442970510974979?s=21&t=u_nKy9csteg_PGdvdvt31w
5.5.9 Upon an affected Club’s application the RFU may in its absolute discretion reduce or waive in its entirety any sanction that would otherwise apply to a Club under Regulations 5.5.5 to 5.5.8 where it is satisfied that the Insolvency Event would not have occurred but for an event or circumstance which was beyond the control and without the fault or negligence of the affected Club and which by the exercise of reasonable diligence the affected Club was unable to prevent, including (but not limited to): riot, war, invasion, act of foreign enemies, acts of terrorism, earthquakes, flood, fire or other physical natural disaster, strikes at national level or industrial disputes at a national level and any epidemic or pandemic as categorised as such by the UK Government and/or the World Health Organisation.
Wow - that's everything then!!!
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Interesting find by Charlie Morgan https://twitter.com/charliefelix/status/1561442970510974979?s=21&t=u_nKy9csteg_PGdvdvt31w
5.5.9 Upon an affected Club’s application the RFU may in its absolute discretion reduce or waive in its entirety any sanction that would otherwise apply to a Club under Regulations 5.5.5 to 5.5.8 where it is satisfied that the Insolvency Event would not have occurred but for an event or circumstance which was beyond the control and without the fault or negligence of the affected Club and which by the exercise of reasonable diligence the affected Club was unable to prevent, including (but not limited to): riot, war, invasion, act of foreign enemies, acts of terrorism, earthquakes, flood, fire or other physical natural disaster, strikes at national level or industrial disputes at a national level and any epidemic or pandemic as categorised as such by the UK Government and/or the World Health Organisation.
Wow - that's everything then!!!
Not quite. No mention of a zombie apocalypse :o :o :o
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Not a promising tweet from Ollie Lawrence following a players / playing staff meeting this morning.
https://twitter.com/OLawrence1/status/1561653687214284801?t=lIZz4rVOoYkngimSWdBucA&s=19
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Not a promising tweet from Ollie Lawrence following a players / playing staff meeting this morning.
https://twitter.com/OLawrence1/status/1561653687214284801?t=lIZz4rVOoYkngimSWdBucA&s=19
Don't understand :-[ Possible misuse of an apostrophe?
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?"Cowboys"?
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Not a promising tweet from Ollie Lawrence following a players / playing staff meeting this morning.
https://twitter.com/OLawrence1/status/1561653687214284801?t=lIZz4rVOoYkngimSWdBucA&s=19
Don't understand :-[ Possible misuse of an apostrophe?
Would imagine coming out of a meeting about his professional future and club was being wrecked by a couple of cowboys he wasn't too focused on punctuation.
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Not a promising tweet from Ollie Lawrence following a players / playing staff meeting this morning.
https://twitter.com/OLawrence1/status/1561653687214284801?t=lIZz4rVOoYkngimSWdBucA&s=19
Don't understand :-[ Possible misuse of an apostrophe?
Would imagine coming out of a meeting about his professional future and club was being wrecked by a couple of cowboys he wasn't too focused on punctuation.
No excuse ::)
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I was chatting to a friend who supports Worcester and we were looking at the owners on Companies House. I counted 11 seperate businesses linked directly to Worcester that one owner has been a director of in the last 3 years.
Crikey, Derek has only got 6 based out of the CBS arena.
You have clearly moved from discussing an issue that affects both clubs, to making pointless negative remarks about Wasps.
Consider this your one and only warning.
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I was chatting to a friend who supports Worcester and we were looking at the owners on Companies House. I counted 11 seperate businesses linked directly to Worcester that one owner has been a director of in the last 3 years.
Crikey, Derek has only got 6 based out of the CBS arena.
You have clearly moved from discussing an issue that affects both clubs, to making pointless negative remarks about Wasps.
Consider this your one and only warning.
I think that yellow is a tad harsh, VV. It actually made me giggle ;)
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I was chatting to a friend who supports Worcester and we were looking at the owners on Companies House. I counted 11 seperate businesses linked directly to Worcester that one owner has been a director of in the last 3 years.
Crikey, Derek has only got 6 based out of the CBS arena.
You have clearly moved from discussing an issue that affects both clubs, to making pointless negative remarks about Wasps.
Consider this your one and only warning.
I think that yellow is a tad harsh, VV. It actually made me giggle ;)
I'm happy to accept that you are a nicer and more easy going person than me. ;D
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I was chatting to a friend who supports Worcester and we were looking at the owners on Companies House. I counted 11 seperate businesses linked directly to Worcester that one owner has been a director of in the last 3 years.
Crikey, Derek has only got 6 based out of the CBS arena.
You have clearly moved from discussing an issue that affects both clubs, to making pointless negative remarks about Wasps.
Consider this your one and only warning.
I think that yellow is a tad harsh, VV. It actually made me giggle ;)
I'm happy to accept that you are a nicer and more easy going person than me. ;D
It was slightly tongue in cheek, and not necessarily worse than some of the comments I have received. I was genuinely surprised though that one of the companies is called Commonwealth Conferences, three relate to Arena Quarter, two are Wasps Holdings and Wasps Finance. The financial position of Wasps is of interest to many people on this forum and, also taking into account the training ground ownership issue, does make me wonder whether some of the potential benefits to Wasps of the move are not going to accrue to Wasps.
I would hate to be red carded, I do like the endless thread.
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I think that yellow is a tad harsh, VV.
Me too, FWIW.
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As an aside, does SISU have any separate businesses linked directly to CCFC and if so, how many? I know nothing about business and even less about finance (ask the wife🤣), so I don't find the idea in general being a surprise (to me at least).
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Latest update of sorts from Worcs, this local journo seems most up to date given the info vacuum.
https://twitter.com/Mcossalifrancis/status/1561710113039290368?t=81iyi_BYMLSDW-SCHmXEdg&s=19
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Worcs owners statement
https://twitter.com/RugbyInsideLine/status/1561734420457000961?t=Cl2bDw0Iir-R71RUyCmZPg&s=19
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Nothing statement. Adds nothing, rules nothing out, says... nothing.
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Nothing statement. Adds nothing, rules nothing out, says... nothing.
Has a background hint of "we're not getting away with this now are we"
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Depressingly the statement seems to say that playing rugby at Sixways has been downgraded from the fundamental purpose of the business to merely an option to be considered
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As an aside, does SISU have any separate businesses linked directly to CCFC and if so, how many? I know nothing about business and even less about finance (ask the wife🤣), so I don't find the idea in general being a surprise (to me at least).
Otium operate the football club and is a subsidiary of Sky Blue Sports and Leisure. There is also SBITC (Sky Blues In The Community). I’m not aware of any others.
I think everyone expects that if the unicorn, I mean stadium, is ever built that there will be a propco set up to run it.
I think with Wasps, it was the training centre that surprised me, given statements Vaughan had made about Wasps owning all of it (and the timing of the share transfer) and also Commonwealth Convention Centre Ltd. That is a dormant (but still classed as active) company set up in 2020 and would sound to be, if operational, at odds with Wasps own conferencing operation.
I guess I don’t trust Sisu or multi millionaires particularly when they “owe” ordinary people money.
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As an aside, does SISU have any separate businesses linked directly to CCFC and if so, how many? I know nothing about business and even less about finance (ask the wife🤣), so I don't find the idea in general being a surprise (to me at least).
Otium operate the football club and is a subsidiary of Sky Blue Sports and Leisure. There is also SBITC (Sky Blues In The Community). I’m not aware of any others.
I think everyone expects that if the unicorn, I mean stadium, is ever built that there will be a propco set up to run it.
I think with Wasps, it was the training centre that surprised me, given statements Vaughan had made about Wasps owning all of it (and the timing of the share transfer) and also Commonwealth Convention Centre Ltd. That is a dormant (but still classed as active) company set up in 2020 and would sound to be, if operational, at odds with Wasps own conferencing operation.
I guess I don’t trust Sisu or multi millionaires particularly when they “owe” ordinary people money.
SBS and L is a shell company with £28m of “owed” but non recoverable funds. Otium is the club and anyone buying the club only has to purchase Otium
Wasos has a bizarre number of companies including Candmago Holdings within the group and Maltese registered moonstone holdings as the parent company and MGI Fiduciary at the top of the chain
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Sam - If you ever met Derek you might well change your mind about this particular millionaire. I am not being 'crawly' etc; he is a genuinely nice person.
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As an aside, does SISU have any separate businesses linked directly to CCFC and if so, how many? I know nothing about business and even less about finance (ask the wife🤣), so I don't find the idea in general being a surprise (to me at least).
Otium operate the football club and is a subsidiary of Sky Blue Sports and Leisure. There is also SBITC (Sky Blues In The Community). I’m not aware of any others.
I think everyone expects that if the unicorn, I mean stadium, is ever built that there will be a propco set up to run it.
I think with Wasps, it was the training centre that surprised me, given statements Vaughan had made about Wasps owning all of it (and the timing of the share transfer) and also Commonwealth Convention Centre Ltd. That is a dormant (but still classed as active) company set up in 2020 and would sound to be, if operational, at odds with Wasps own conferencing operation.
I guess I don’t trust Sisu or multi millionaires particularly when they “owe” ordinary people money.
SBS and L is a shell company with £28m of “owed” but non recoverable funds. Otium is the club and anyone buying the club only has to purchase Otium
Wasos has a bizarre number of companies including Candmago Holdings within the group and Maltese registered moonstone holdings as the parent company and MGI Fiduciary at the top of the chain
As expected its more complicated than you seem to imply.
Otium Entertainment Group Limited own the essentially asset free club. However they have only one registered director. They do however have Sisu Capital Ltd listed as having a "significant interest".
Sisu Capital Ltd is owned entirely by Joy Sepalla, but is also part of Sisu Capital Partners LLP, which lists it as one of the partners. Another of the partners is Joy Sepalla again. This time she shares significant interest with three other people. It starts to get even more interesting when you look at their other connections with St Helens Rugby League, London Property Investment, and Singapore based asset management companies all featuring.
It's easy to draw conclusions from layered companies, but the fact is it is common practice. Pick any top level sports team and you could make it look dodgy if you wanted to.
As Wonky says Derek is one of the good guys.
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Sam - If you ever met Derek you might well change your mind about this particular millionaire. I am not being 'crawly' etc; he is a genuinely nice person.
Well there was the curious case of a court injunction and an Irish medical practice and of course giving falsified information regarding the clubs accounts which resulted in PW I believe (?) resigning - the reality is Joy Seppala is apparently extremely pleasant and charming and Tim Fisher certainly is
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I was curious to know what Christopher Holland's background is and found this from CT : https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/wasps-appoint-former-mod-man-13508226
Obviously well used to wearing a tin hat and a flak jacket :)
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I was curious to know what Christopher Holland's background is and found this from CT : https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/wasps-appoint-former-mod-man-13508226
Obviously well used to wearing a tin hat and a flak jacket :)
Yes quite an interesting back story if you have the means to look.
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Aggie.etc I have met Derek several times. I have never met Joyless, and judging her past actions and the comments passed by legal eagles at various Enquiries on her believability - I consider myself fortunate. Have you ever met her? Have you ever met Derek?
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I was curious to know what Christopher Holland's background is and found this from CT : https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/wasps-appoint-former-mod-man-13508226
Obviously well used to wearing a tin hat and a flak jacket :)
Yes quite an interesting back story if you have the means to look.
Unusual purchase for Lockwood holdings
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OK, done with this now.
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Sam - If you ever met Derek you might well change your mind about this particular millionaire. I am not being 'crawly' etc; he is a genuinely nice person.
Well there was the curious case of a court injunction and an Irish medical practice and of course giving falsified information regarding the clubs accounts which resulted in PW I believe (?) resigning - the reality is Joy Seppala is apparently extremely pleasant and charming and Tim Fisher certainly is
The injunction granted on an ex-parte basis, where the application against Derek was withdrawn two weeks later because it had nothing to do with him?!
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Sam - If you ever met Derek you might well change your mind about this particular millionaire. I am not being 'crawly' etc; he is a genuinely nice person.
I’m unlikely to meet either Joy or Derek so I will take your word that he is nice in person.
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Agos.etc .... about having met Derek ........ You never answered. Yes or No will do.
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It looks like bondholders are starting to organise themselves
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london/wasps-22-WAS1/share-chat
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Sam ..... I wasn't aiming at you! Just at Agos.wotsit.
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Agos.etc .... about having met Derek ........ You never answered. Yes or No will do.
He won't be answering Wonky.
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Sam - If you ever met Derek you might well change your mind about this particular millionaire. I am not being 'crawly' etc; he is a genuinely nice person.
Out of interest, have you ever done business with him?
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Sam ..... I wasn't aiming at you! Just at Agos.wotsit.
That’s ok, I was answering to the post which seemed to be addressed to me as it started with “Sam”.
I must look up the just three word for Agos
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Yes Sam - Apologies for getting your names muddled. Senior booboo. Sadly, my teacher's pension and OAP pension don't stretch far enough to do business with anyone at all ..... Oh, that it did!
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It looks like bondholders are starting to organise themselves
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london/wasps-22-WAS1/share-chat
You seem very heavily invested in all of this Sam. I suppose it might lessen once you have home games to focus on. Out of interest on the bonds thing what outcome are you hoping for?
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It looks like bondholders are starting to organise themselves
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london/wasps-22-WAS1/share-chat
Looks like Grendel has finally found a home where they are wanted/liked, unlike SBT or DWs.
Didn't realise they were a Bondholder as well as the fount of all sporting, financial, legal and business knowledge whilst seemingly having endless amounts of spare time on their hands. That's some talent.
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Telegraph now reporting that the house Worcester owned to house academy players was repossessed.
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Sounding bleak for them isn’t it. Is it as basic as we play a 12 team league if they don’t make it? Hope they can survive.
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Sounding bleak for them isn’t it. Is it as basic as we play a 12 team league if they don’t make it? Hope they can survive.
It solves a lot of problems for PRL
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It looks like bondholders are starting to organise themselves
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london/wasps-22-WAS1/share-chat
You seem very heavily invested in all of this Sam. I suppose it might lessen once you have home games to focus on. Out of interest on the bonds thing what outcome are you hoping for?
I was just passing on something which I thought might be at least of interest even if of no concern to you.
I have loads of time now I’m retired, I’ve picked this as my pet project.
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It looks like bondholders are starting to organise themselves
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london/wasps-22-WAS1/share-chat
You seem very heavily invested in all of this Sam. I suppose it might lessen once you have home games to focus on. Out of interest on the bonds thing what outcome are you hoping for?
I was just passing on something which I thought might be at least of interest even if of no concern to you.
I have loads of time now I’m retired, I’ve picked this as my pet project.
Picked what?
Ensuring Wasps fans don't miss any negative news about their club?
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It looks like bondholders are starting to organise themselves
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london/wasps-22-WAS1/share-chat
You seem very heavily invested in all of this Sam. I suppose it might lessen once you have home games to focus on. Out of interest on the bonds thing what outcome are you hoping for?
I was just passing on something which I thought might be at least of interest even if of no concern to you.
I have loads of time now I’m retired, I’ve picked this as my pet project.
But not enough time to read the comments.
“Deleted misread article” appears quite a lot. Also, that’s all we need, a Baldric with a plan.
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It looks like bondholders are starting to organise themselves
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london/wasps-22-WAS1/share-chat
You seem very heavily invested in all of this Sam. I suppose it might lessen once you have home games to focus on. Out of interest on the bonds thing what outcome are you hoping for?
[/quote
I was just passing on something which I thought might be at least of interest even if of no concern to you.
I have loads of time now I’m retired, I’ve picked this as my pet project.
But not enough time to read the comments.
“Deleted misread article” appears quite a lot. Also, that’s all we need, a Baldric with a plan.
I have read all the comments actually. The guy who most recently deleted had thought that the covid money was new, not what has already been loaned to rugby clubs, and hence thought there was a chance bondholders would get their £35m back.
I don’t know why that would matter anyway, the communication from the Trustee was the point. Did you have time to read it?
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It looks like bondholders are starting to organise themselves
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london/wasps-22-WAS1/share-chat
You seem very heavily invested in all of this Sam. I suppose it might lessen once you have home games to focus on. Out of interest on the bonds thing what outcome are you hoping for?
I was just passing on something which I thought might be at least of interest even if of no concern to you.
I have loads of time now I’m retired, I’ve picked this as my pet project.
Picked what?
Ensuring Wasps fans don't miss any negative news about their club?
Following the ups and downs of a local sports club and debating same with intelligent people with a different viewpoint.
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Picked what?
Ensuring Wasps fans don't miss any negative news about their club?
Following the ups and downs of a local sports club and debating same with intelligent people with a different viewpoint.
You should get a job in PR. "Yes" would have been a lot quicker to type.
You seem to be very strongly focussed on the downs and not so much on the ups.
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Picked what?
Ensuring Wasps fans don't miss any negative news about their club?
Following the ups and downs of a local sports club and debating same with intelligent people with a different viewpoint.
You should get a job in PR. "Yes" would have been a lot quicker to type.
You seem to be very strongly focussed on the downs and not so much on the ups.
The new kit is very nice and I’m sure it’s great that Ashley has returned. I am trying not to be even more irritating by posting on lots of different threads. I have been very surprised at the general lack of concern about the bond default - and other matters which many here will defend, ignore or not really address, like Vaughan saying Wasps would own the training ground when it appears that they don’t.
There are some on here who I think do have some concerns, other are totally blasé and have been shown to be wrong, e.g, the bonds weren’t sorted out in a few weeks. Until the bonds are sorted I don’t see much in the way of ups because until then there is a constant cloud hanging over everything.
The consent solicitation should be out in 9 days. Bondholders who express a view are not happy bunnies but they may have smaller holdings who had planned to use the redemption to, for example, pay off their mortgages. Those with bigger holding may be keeping their powder dry, but all the media attention is not helping Wasps cause. It does only take 25% to vote against the plan for it to fall.
If everything works out, those who are totally unconcerned will be able to say “told you so”. Those who are concerned will breath a sigh of relief. If it doesn’t work out, there will be some to whom it will come as a total shock.
Whilst my stance will be seen as biased, because I have supported CCFC for a very long time, it does actually provide some balance when taken overall with all the views expressed by the many more posters who have an equal but opposite biased stance. They are more than capable of highlighting all the ups.
As I said previously, I am enjoying the debate. The world would be a very boring, and probably less developed, place if everyone agreed on everything.
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Imho I don't find Sam offensive, certainly not on the level of Dehumaniser (euch) or thinggy wotsitv snowpack, or a couple of other SBSs. 'SB' can stand for many uncomplimentary descriptions. I can't approve of insults and slurs aimed at Derek; he is our owner and a genuinely nice person, and can't answer back. The most recently claimed "my truth" which Snowpack spat out went far beyond the pale (as well as being untrue) and I'm very happy that he is no longer sniggering in a corner. Thank you. But Sam isn't bad.
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Debate is good.
I think I said in one of my early posts that in many ways society these days has lost the ability to have a good argument. I mean argument in the best way, with people on both sides putting their ideas and points, and the others (and this is important) listening and trying to understand the viewpoint.
Anyway, this thread has gone off the rails somewhat.
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I was just passing on something which I thought might be at least of interest even if of no concern to you.
I have loads of time now I’m retired, I’ve picked this as my pet project.
Which is fair. But scratch beneath the surface and it's hardly a bondholder revolt. There are relatively few voices posting on that board to begin with. Amongst the prominent ones, there are two who only joined in June this year, have only ever posted on the Wasps Bond board and their posts vary between describing themselves as bondholders to enquiring when bondholders might actually wake up to them being conned (not exact wording, but the same inference). Coupled with a couple of fairly obvious CCFC-related usernames does make you wonder just how meaningful or indicative that board is.
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Imho I don't find Sam offensive, certainly not on the level of Dehumaniser (euch) or thinggy wotsitv snowpack, or a couple of other SBSs. 'SB' can stand for many uncomplimentary descriptions. I can't approve of insults and slurs aimed at Derek; he is our owner and a genuinely nice person, and can't answer back. The most recently claimed "my truth" which Snowpack spat out went far beyond the pale (as well as being untrue) and I'm very happy that he is no longer sniggering in a corner. Thank you. But Sam isn't bad.
Wonky, I think you’ll find Grendel, Dehuminiser and Agosto Blond Snowflake are all one and the same person. No-one minds debate but these interlopers are not after that - just on the wind up. It becomes especially ridiculous when they go back to their CCFC forum to brag about being banned like some sort of infantile badge of honour.
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Thanks Shugs! I did wonder, but I thought that if someone was really that narcissistic, sad, and desperate for publicity and with that much spare time on their hands then they must be off their trolley. Not worth the bother. Aren't some people peculiar. Glad he/she/they has/have gone.
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"we" as wasps supporters can't blame people like SBS for pointing out uncomfortable facts.
The Bond was not repaid on time & hasnt been re-financed within the few weeks expected, no amount of wishing otherwise can change that
The Training ground sale of one board members 50% to another at the same time as the bond default is a fact, but while it sounds strange its not illegal or wrong, as far as we know.
The issues with the pitch are also fact.
Everything else that bouncing around, the un paid tax bill, insolvency, a halt on recruitment, unpaid bills etc, are currently just rumours. Its not to say they won't become facts in due course.
While some people choose to see the negative on this & assume financial collapse is just around the corner, others prefer to hope everything will be OK.
Other prefer to wait till more facts emerge. I personally am not going to worry about stuff that may not happen & I cannot change.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion & re-action, none are more or less valid than any other.
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Baldpaul - completely agree with that. But in my opinion there is a difference between wanting to discuss that sort of stuff and taking endless snide potshots at the club in posts with a very thin veneer of genuineness.
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The new kit is very nice and I’m sure it’s great that Ashley has returned. I am trying not to be even more irritating by posting on lots of different threads. I have been very surprised at the general lack of concern about the bond default - and other matters which many here will defend, ignore or not really address, like Vaughan saying Wasps would own the training ground when it appears that they don’t.
There are some on here who I think do have some concerns, other are totally blasé and have been shown to be wrong, e.g, the bonds weren’t sorted out in a few weeks. Until the bonds are sorted I don’t see much in the way of ups because until then there is a constant cloud hanging over everything.
The consent solicitation should be out in 9 days. Bondholders who express a view are not happy bunnies but they may have smaller holdings who had planned to use the redemption to, for example, pay off their mortgages. Those with bigger holding may be keeping their powder dry, but all the media attention is not helping Wasps cause. It does only take 25% to vote against the plan for it to fall.
If everything works out, those who are totally unconcerned will be able to say “told you so”. Those who are concerned will breath a sigh of relief. If it doesn’t work out, there will be some to whom it will come as a total shock.
Whilst my stance will be seen as biased, because I have supported CCFC for a very long time, it does actually provide some balance when taken overall with all the views expressed by the many more posters who have an equal but opposite biased stance. They are more than capable of highlighting all the ups.
As I said previously, I am enjoying the debate. The world would be a very boring, and probably less developed, place if everyone agreed on everything.
I'm not sure you're reading the room.
It's not that no-one here is concerned. Of course we are, but there is a lot more context you seem to miss.
We've been on the edge of bankruptcy as a club in the past. We were spiralling down into oblivion with little success on the pitch, a tenancy agreement that shafted us completely and a football club whose fans hated us. Our D.O.R. was putting his hands in his own pocket to buy supplies for the physios to treat the players, we called former players out of retirement just to sit on the bench so we were able to field a team, and players were going unpaid.
Then Derek came along and saved the club. He poured vast amounts of his own personal money into a club that wasn't his natural home. And he did that for two reasons.
1) He loves rugby. The game, the atmosphere, the crowds, the fans, the friendships, the rivalries, the whole thing. The first time I ever spoke to him we chatted on the phone for an hour about different games, our favourite moments, the players we enjoyed watching, how we thought the club would do. Plenty of people have sotries of meeting him in a bar in France and spending time just chatting to him as they would with any other fan. In fact I've not heard from anyone who has met him with an open mind who thinks he isn't genuine.
2) He saw an opportunity to make money from the club. Now I'm the first to admit I was against the move to Coventry when it was first announced, it adds an hour or two onto my travel time in each direction, and I knew I'd get to fewer games, but the imagination and scope of the plans is truly staggering, and it is hard not to be impressed by the ambition of it all. The fact that there was a stadium going begging, a stadium that had essentially been built for a football team whose owners were so arrogant they screwed over the freehold owners and then flounced off in a huff to try to devalue it enough that they could buy it at a steal was serendipity of the highest order.
I can understand why fans of CCFC feel aggrieved at how things have worked out, but if SISU had dealt with the council the way Wasps did, and not tried to bully them into a situation that was not what they wanted then there would have been no stadium to buy. SISU and Joyless showed their true colours by trying again and again to sue Wasps unsuccessfully instead of attempting to build a mutually beneficial relationship.
Now obviously those original plans have not gone the way anyone at Wasps hoped, and things don't look brilliant right now. But there is a huge amount of love and support for Derek and the team he has assembled among the fans of the club. We are worried, but we trust him. We wouldn't have a club without him.
We're concerned about the bond, but figure there is likely a plan. From the way things have worked out I suspect there was a plan, and something happened to throw a spanner in the works. They wouldn't have been able to mention HSBC if they weren't involved, so something must have happened there. Maybe the threat of more legal action from CCFC was the issue? Who knows. I'm a bond holder and I'm ok with waiting as long as my 6.5% is being paid.
We're concerned about the lack of income, but understand that Rugby is a pretty poor way to try to make money. The plan for the club was for hotels, conferences, concerts, football, netball, and rugby all to come together. Covid effectively killed every single one of those income streams, and it is only just starting to bounce back. Hotels, Bars, Concert Venues and other similar businesses went under all over the country and so the fact that we are still here is a testament to how well the club is run.
We're concerned about the performances on the field, as a fan base we have different theories about what is causing it, but that is what this place is for, we disagree, we debate, sometimes we get cross, but we are all Wasps fans first and foremost.
We're concerned that CCFC might be more trouble than they are worth. Not a single game played this season and already legal threats. It's like your club can't understand that a healthy working relationship benefits us both. We aren't in competition, we can both succeed.
I'm sure some people are concerned about the training centre, but I'm not. It was never owned by Wasps, it was owned by Derek and Chris, now it is owned by just Chris, who is not only a very switched on and successful guy, but sits on the board of Wasps. A company doesn't have to own a property for it to be its home. Just like the freehold of the Arena does not belong to Wasps, the freehold of the training centre doesn't either.
So yeah we're concerned, but we certainly aren't panicking yet.
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But in my opinion there is a difference between wanting to discuss that sort of stuff and taking endless snide potshots at the club in posts with a very thin veneer of genuineness
Agreed. Its important in my view to split the facts from the rumours & prevent the rumours being treated as facts.
VV, great post.
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Excellent post, VV. Not sure I have anything to add to that which I haven't already said!
If Wasps and CCFC can (one day) happily coexist, then that can only be mutually beneficial.
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VV good post.
ALSO nowhere has it been said by HMRC that Wasps has an unpaid tax bill as far as I can see. Just because poor Worcester are in trouble does not mean Wasps are. This all stems, as far as I can see, from the Wasps statement that "like all large firms" they are in regular contact with the HMRC. I would assume, like most firms, it will be their appointed accountant.
This short comment seems to have been picked up and twisted by Gilbert who has been feeding the inept BBC and other less inquisitive feeds his "version".
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VV, BP101 and BAGS .... Superb summing up. Can this thread now die happily?
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Nice summary VV.
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VV you are closer to the 'action' than the vast majority of us.
Thank you for sharing your insights.
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Other prefer to wait till more facts emerge. I personally am not going to worry about stuff that may not happen & I cannot change.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion & re-action, none are more or less valid than any other.
Quite right, BP. I always try to not get my knickers in a twist over something which is completely outside my experience and understanding eg business and high finance).
BTW. Great post VV. It is quite clear to me also, that something was in place for refinancing the bond and probably had been for some time. However, something unknown and unforeseen buggered up the plan.
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Can this thread now die happily?
Sadly I very much doubt it!
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Can this thread now die happily?
Sadly I very much doubt it!
Won't die until the Worcester situation is resolved.
A selfish Waspie question. Does the team think that the Christmas Cracker v Wuss and which would have been a big earner for us. Would we have insurance cover in case the game did not go ahead?
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Can this thread now die happily?
Sadly I very much doubt it!
Won't die until the Worcester situation is resolved.
A selfish Waspie question. Does the team think that the Christmas Cracker v Wuss and which would have been a big earner for us. Would we have insurance cover in case the game did not go ahead?
I don't know if that sort of thing can be covered at a cost that makes it worthwhile. But as Derek made his money in Insurance I suspect if it can be it was.
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If there's one thing I've learnt in 27 years as a Wasps fan it's that this club is very resilient. It's been in tough spots before, and lived on.
Whilst the current situation is far from ideal and at the worst possible time for us given global events, one thing I do know is that the club will survive in some form. Whether that's in the form of a Premiership Rugby side playing at a 32k capacity stadium in Coventry I don't know, but having known Derek for approaching 9 years now I trust him to do his best to find a way to make it work.
As for me, I'm pretty certain I'm not going to find a spare £35-55 million hiding down the back of the sofa, so there isn't much I can do to help Wasps, unless I win the Euromillions, and given I always forget to buy a ticket I can't see that happening any time soon.
The fact that I can't help Wasps at the moment or that I've decided against getting a season ticket for the coming season doesn't mean I don't care or worry about the situation. It just means I focus on the things I can control instead such as my health, happiness and that of my dog and family.
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Well done VV good post.
I'm nervous about the situation but happy for Derek to hopefully sort everything out. Things could go bad but it can get better.
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Other prefer to wait till more facts emerge. I personally am not going to worry about stuff that may not happen & I cannot change.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion & re-action, none are more or less valid than any other.
Quite right, BP. I always try to not get my knickers in a twist over something which is completely outside my experience and understanding eg business and high finance).
BTW. Great post VV. It is quite clear to me also, that something was in place for refinancing the bond and probably had been for some time. However, something unknown and unforeseen buggered up the plan.
How does that prayer that was used on a lot of serene beach, sea and landscape posters in the 60s & 70s go? Something like:
Lord,
Grant me the strength to change the things I can change,
The patience to accept the things I can't change,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
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That was advice that I failed on big time, a few years ago.....And something I've tried to do better at since. Still v hard as I've found.....
Fingers crossed....
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VV, that was indeed a good post, however I don’t think there was any inkling of further legal action from CCFC leading up to the bond redemption date.
Some of your recollections about rent levels sound familiar. Sisu undoubtedly handled thing both badly and wrongly from the start.
If a company (and stress the if) end up financially penalised because another company has not abided by a contract, is it that unreasonable to pursue some recompense - and none of us know whether that will happen - we are working on a balance of probabilities given some history. I was very angry about the pitch situation and will only see two home games by the end of September and I do think Wasps handled it very badly.
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VV, that was indeed a good post, however I don’t think there was any inkling of further legal action from CCFC leading up to the bond redemption date.
Some of your recollections about rent levels sound familiar. Sisu undoubtedly handled thing both badly and wrongly from the start.
If a company (and stress the if) end up financially penalised because another company has not abided by a contract, is it that unreasonable to pursue some recompense - and none of us know whether that will happen - we are working on a balance of probabilities given some history. I was very angry about the pitch situation and will only see two home games by the end of September and I do think Wasps handled it very badly.
I think you'll find that most on this forum won't care too much if ccfc/sisu are financially penalised.
The general consensus will likely be that Wasps have been financially penalised for numerous years in having to defend a number of legal challenges by sisu over the stadium ownership
So, while the club certainly wouldn't have purposely let the pitch situation occur, the Wasps fans are unlikely to lose too much sleep over any hardship it causes ccfc.
Unfortunately, this is where the breakdown in the relationship starts to surface.
Fans of either side aren't too upset to see the other side suffer.
That's something that needs to change if we're all to happily move forward
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Reading some of the Worcester stuff one of the things that stands out is that Wasps fans in general have absolute faith that Richardson is doing his absolute best for the club - I fully agree with that. We’re lucky in that as not every club can say it. We’re fortunate to have such an owner.
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Reading some of the Worcester stuff one of the things that stands out is that Wasps fans in general have absolute faith that Richardson is doing his absolute best for the club - I fully agree with that. We’re lucky in that as not every club can say it. We’re fortunate to have such an owner.
Yes been watching that and to say they would like a lynching is mild.
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VV, that was indeed a good post, however I don’t think there was any inkling of further legal action from CCFC leading up to the bond redemption date.
Some of your recollections about rent levels sound familiar. Sisu undoubtedly handled thing both badly and wrongly from the start.
If a company (and stress the if) end up financially penalised because another company has not abided by a contract, is it that unreasonable to pursue some recompense - and none of us know whether that will happen - we are working on a balance of probabilities given some history. I was very angry about the pitch situation and will only see two home games by the end of September and I do think Wasps handled it very badly.
I think you have every right to be very angry, Sam. I am sure, in similar circumstances, I would be too. Also I don't think CCFC should lose out financially. However, with Sisu's penchant for litigation, I think we are entitled to be cynical. But (and there is always a but) I do think EFL could have been more helpful (sympathetic). Their 'experts' would always say that the pitch is unsafe and therefore unplayable. It's called cover your ass.
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VV, that was indeed a good post, however I don’t think there was any inkling of further legal action from CCFC leading up to the bond redemption date.
Probably not, but during the five years after Wasps moved to Coventry Sisu had them in the High Court twice, The Court of Appeal twice, the Supreme Court once, and even attempted to take the spurious case to the EU Commission. So having a tenant who has already attempted to sue you six times in five years isn't a good look.
If a company (and stress the if) end up financially penalised because another company has not abided by a contract, is it that unreasonable to pursue some recompense - and none of us know whether that will happen - we are working on a balance of probabilities given some history. I was very angry about the pitch situation and will only see two home games by the end of September and I do think Wasps handled it very badly.
As we don't know what the agreement was it's very hard to make a reasonable comment in any way on this. But let's for the sake of argument assume there is a case to be made about the pitch.
It's probably fair to say that the hottest heatwave in history, a large concert, and the commonwealth games all coming together made the pitch what it was. If a new pitch had been relaid before the Rammstein gig it would have ended up in exactly the state the old pitch was. It wouldn't have rooted, it would likely have bare patches, and it would be no safer than the current pitch was. Because let's face it, laying a new pitch wouldn't have stopped the concert, it wouldn't have stopped the heatwave, and it wouldn't have stopped the CG.
But the actual question is was Wasps obliged to provide a suitable pitch anyway? This is where it gets tricky. It seems CCFC knew about the concert, and they knew about the CG. The heatwave I think surprised us all. They also knew there were no plans to re-lay a pitch, despite what may have been said earlier. The pitch, in whatever state it was in, was committed to the exclusive use of the CG until the 14th August. CCFC however wanted the pitch earlier than that. Whose issue is that? It feels to me as if CCFC were fully aware that there might be an issue with access to the ground at the start of the season, and it was ignored. It sounds to me as if the uproar about the state of the pitch was deliberately created to distract from the fact that the people who run your club agreed to hold a home match in a ground they already knew they had no access to and no right to us on that date.
The pitch quality sucked from a football perspective, I get that. But do you really believe that anything else was ever on the cards?
And as to how it was dealt with, you'll have to go a long way to persuade me that the discussions wouldn't have been more productive behind closed doors in a way that didn't paint either side as being "to blame". Unless of course publically paiting Wasps as the party at fault was deliberate to cover up CCFC's fuck up.
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Just to add VV that it's unclear whether the refusal to move games until the pitch was originally due to be sorted (around about now) was due to the EFL or CCFC.
It seems like it could well be the former rather than the latter - CCFC clearly had prior knowledge of commitments and plans around the pitch and didn't have a problem, but the EFL did/do and were unwilling or unable to schedule the fixtures to accommodate and so CCFC have found themselves in the middle with no control over either side.
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Grendel again?
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Glad he/she/they has/have gone.
Hate to break this to you......
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Yup
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The points you make may be correct, they may not be.
I genuinely don't know and can't influence it
But what do you hope to achieve by posting stuff like this?
Are you hoping that we all say "oh my god, he's right, let's all stop being Wasps fans" ?
Are you trying to emotionally distress some fans?
Or do you just want to be able to say "I told you so" when/if it all comes tumbling down?
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Glad he/she/they has/have gone.
Hate to break this to you......
Has anyone ever told you what an amusing chap you are?
Thought not......
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The points you make may be correct, they may not be.
I genuinely don't know and can't influence it
But what do you hope to achieve by posting stuff like this?
Are you hoping that we all say "oh my god, he's right, let's all stop being Wasps fans" ?
Are you trying to emotionally distress some fans?
Or do you just want to be able to say "I told you so" when/if it all comes tumbling down?
I remember leaving Loftus Road with my father after the first home game of the 1999/2000 season, about a week before the start of the Rugby World Cup. A kid who lived nearby shouted out "I wouldn't go to a Rugby match if you gave me a free ticket". My Dad responded "Well that's it then. All Rugby will be cancelled, including the World Cup and the sport will never be played again"
"Really?"
"No. And nobody's going to offer you a free ticket either"
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I don't agree with removing Magnu Horse's main post (although the subsequent ones & the various replies are no loss.)
Some of what he said are the genuine feelings off some CCFC supporters, there were probably even some truths in there too. I don't think we do ourselves any favours pretending those views aren't out there & censoring posts.
Granted they we not put very eloquently!
However its not my site so its VV's prerogative.
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VV, that was indeed a good post, however I don’t think there was any inkling of further legal action from CCFC leading up to the bond redemption date.
Some of your recollections about rent levels sound familiar. Sisu undoubtedly handled thing both badly and wrongly from the start.
If a company (and stress the if) end up financially penalised because another company has not abided by a contract, is it that unreasonable to pursue some recompense - and none of us know whether that will happen - we are working on a balance of probabilities given some history. I was very angry about the pitch situation and will only see two home games by the end of September and I do think Wasps handled it very badly.
If a contract obligation has been broken there will be stipulated remedies and these may or may not be financial.
In this case I would expect any commercial director and lawyer worth their salt to have limited those remedies to at most direct out of pocket expenses and for ccfc to have had an obligation to mitigate any losses as soon as they were notified.
But as we have no idea what's in the contract this is only idle speculation while we wait for the season to start and as I've said, I trust Wasps' commercial team to be all over these sorts of issues given the history.
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I don't agree with removing Magnu Horse's main post (although the subsequent ones & the various replies are no loss.)
Some of what he said are
the genuine feelings off some CCFC supporters, there were probably even some truths in there too. I don't think we do ourselves any favours pretending those views aren't out there & censoring posts.
Granted they we not put very eloquently!
However its not my site so its VV's prerogative.
Do ourselves any favours with who? Happy to debate with anyone but not particularly worried if we alienate someone who’s that obsessed that they set up 2-3 user names a day just to antagonise.
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Interesting read.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/im-hearing-whispers-about-another-premiership-club-evans-drua/
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Interesting read.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/im-hearing-whispers-about-another-premiership-club-evans-drua/
TRP said one Northern club and one SW England club were being looked at.
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I don't mind old Grendel's music taste. Better after Fish though.
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I don't agree with removing Magnu Horse's main post (although the subsequent ones & the various replies are no loss.)
Some of what he said are the genuine feelings off some CCFC supporters, there were probably even some truths in there too. I don't think we do ourselves any favours pretending those views aren't out there & censoring posts.
Granted they we not put very eloquently!
However its not my site so its VV's prerogative.
If someone posts here simply to try and upset people and get a rise they and their posts will be removed.
I realise some people will disagree, but I'm not going to let this become another drunken wasps where insults and arguing are standard.
If people want to debate and are willing to do so in a polite and respectful.way they are welcome.
Hence me not having also banned Sam.
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Thanks VV. I wouldn't quibble with any of that.
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Back on thread, looks like some hope for Worcs with a consortium led by a former chief exec putting a bid together.
https://twitter.com/bbchw/status/1562118322497495041?t=v1QXIRr5gBuzi9H7QYjZ1g&s=19
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Good news hopefully.
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Former CEO Jim O'Toole announces bid to buy troubled club.
Hope from the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62652970 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62652970)
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Sounds hopeful. Here's hoping he's successful.
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Yeah, fingers crossed this comes off.
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I guess any bid would depend on being able to buy the whole business, including all those parts recently hived off in to new entities. Otherwise you're just acquiring the bad bit with none of the good.
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https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/simon-jordan-coventry-city-takeover-24780126?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=exchange# (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/simon-jordan-coventry-city-takeover-24780126?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=exchange#)
Interesting stuff in there about Simon Jordan wanting to buy CCFC from SISU. Given his record at Crystal Palace I don't think this would be a great move for CCFC or Wasps. Yet another shady character getting involved.
I expect, as with the Warriors, any CCFC club sale would need to include the stadium....
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Is he that shady? I know he appears on a lot of media with a high profile, Talksport and all that. I also know he has been to court with Palace, but, unlike our SISU friends, he had a case and won.
I would be surprised, he was an actual Palace fan and seemed pretty miffed with the actual ownership aspect, whilst enjoying the profile.
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From reading his wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Jordan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Jordan) & knowing some Palace supporters feelings about him, I wouldn't want him involved in my club.
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The new kit is very nice and I’m sure it’s great that Ashley has returned. I am trying not to be even more irritating by posting on lots of different threads. I have been very surprised at the general lack of concern about the bond default - and other matters which many here will defend, ignore or not really address, like Vaughan saying Wasps would own the training ground when it appears that they don’t.
There are some on here who I think do have some concerns, other are totally blasé and have been shown to be wrong, e.g, the bonds weren’t sorted out in a few weeks. Until the bonds are sorted I don’t see much in the way of ups because until then there is a constant cloud hanging over everything.
The consent solicitation should be out in 9 days. Bondholders who express a view are not happy bunnies but they may have smaller holdings who had planned to use the redemption to, for example, pay off their mortgages. Those with bigger holding may be keeping their powder dry, but all the media attention is not helping Wasps cause. It does only take 25% to vote against the plan for it to fall.
If everything works out, those who are totally unconcerned will be able to say “told you so”. Those who are concerned will breath a sigh of relief. If it doesn’t work out, there will be some to whom it will come as a total shock.
Whilst my stance will be seen as biased, because I have supported CCFC for a very long time, it does actually provide some balance when taken overall with all the views expressed by the many more posters who have an equal but opposite biased stance. They are more than capable of highlighting all the ups.
As I said previously, I am enjoying the debate. The world would be a very boring, and probably less developed, place if everyone agreed on everything.
I'm not sure you're reading the room.
It's not that no-one here is concerned. Of course we are, but there is a lot more context you seem to miss.
We've been on the edge of bankruptcy as a club in the past. We were spiralling down into oblivion with little success on the pitch, a tenancy agreement that shafted us completely and a football club whose fans hated us. Our D.O.R. was putting his hands in his own pocket to buy supplies for the physios to treat the players, we called former players out of retirement just to sit on the bench so we were able to field a team, and players were going unpaid.
Then Derek came along and saved the club. He poured vast amounts of his own personal money into a club that wasn't his natural home. And he did that for two reasons.
1) He loves rugby. The game, the atmosphere, the crowds, the fans, the friendships, the rivalries, the whole thing. The first time I ever spoke to him we chatted on the phone for an hour about different games, our favourite moments, the players we enjoyed watching, how we thought the club would do. Plenty of people have sotries of meeting him in a bar in France and spending time just chatting to him as they would with any other fan. In fact I've not heard from anyone who has met him with an open mind who thinks he isn't genuine.
2) He saw an opportunity to make money from the club. Now I'm the first to admit I was against the move to Coventry when it was first announced, it adds an hour or two onto my travel time in each direction, and I knew I'd get to fewer games, but the imagination and scope of the plans is truly staggering, and it is hard not to be impressed by the ambition of it all. The fact that there was a stadium going begging, a stadium that had essentially been built for a football team whose owners were so arrogant they screwed over the freehold owners and then flounced off in a huff to try to devalue it enough that they could buy it at a steal was serendipity of the highest order.
I can understand why fans of CCFC feel aggrieved at how things have worked out, but if SISU had dealt with the council the way Wasps did, and not tried to bully them into a situation that was not what they wanted then there would have been no stadium to buy. SISU and Joyless showed their true colours by trying again and again to sue Wasps unsuccessfully instead of attempting to build a mutually beneficial relationship.
Now obviously those original plans have not gone the way anyone at Wasps hoped, and things don't look brilliant right now. But there is a huge amount of love and support for Derek and the team he has assembled among the fans of the club. We are worried, but we trust him. We wouldn't have a club without him.
We're concerned about the bond, but figure there is likely a plan. From the way things have worked out I suspect there was a plan, and something happened to throw a spanner in the works. They wouldn't have been able to mention HSBC if they weren't involved, so something must have happened there. Maybe the threat of more legal action from CCFC was the issue? Who knows. I'm a bond holder and I'm ok with waiting as long as my 6.5% is being paid.
We're concerned about the lack of income, but understand that Rugby is a pretty poor way to try to make money. The plan for the club was for hotels, conferences, concerts, football, netball, and rugby all to come together. Covid effectively killed every single one of those income streams, and it is only just starting to bounce back. Hotels, Bars, Concert Venues and other similar businesses went under all over the country and so the fact that we are still here is a testament to how well the club is run.
We're concerned about the performances on the field, as a fan base we have different theories about what is causing it, but that is what this place is for, we disagree, we debate, sometimes we get cross, but we are all Wasps fans first and foremost.
We're concerned that CCFC might be more trouble than they are worth. Not a single game played this season and already legal threats. It's like your club can't understand that a healthy working relationship benefits us both. We aren't in competition, we can both succeed.
I'm sure some people are concerned about the training centre, but I'm not. It was never owned by Wasps, it was owned by Derek and Chris, now it is owned by just Chris, who is not only a very switched on and successful guy, but sits on the board of Wasps. A company doesn't have to own a property for it to be its home. Just like the freehold of the Arena does not belong to Wasps, the freehold of the training centre doesn't either.
So yeah we're concerned, but we certainly aren't panicking yet.
VV - I previously acknowledged this as being a good post. I re-read it in SBT and have been a bit quiet for the last couple of days as I considered whether I should make a couple of points - have come to the conclusion that I should.
The first point was actually made by a poster in SBT (not me) but I thought it a good one. I’m not sure whether irony is quite the right term but “ Not a single game played this season and already legal threats” seems ironic when the only reason for legal threats even being discussed is the fact that not a single game has been played (at the CBS) when there should have been 4.
The other one is that I misread your second point about Derek Richardson. I thought it said make money for Wasps not “make money from Wasps”. Not necessarily any more altruistic than Sisu - although he clearly knows more about your game than Sisu knew/ know about ours ( not difficult).
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The pitch has been deemed playable by the independent agronomist, so that’s good news.
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Can you really be surprised about the legal comment Sam. Given the history of your owners and the obvious thinly veiled insinuations in Boddy’s various statements it was/is an accurate statement. There seems a determination with CCFC fans to try and prove our owners are as bad as yours - I think it must just be to make yourselves feel better about your situation. It’s just not correct.
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The pitch has been deemed playable by the independent agronomist, so that’s good news.
That's good news. Thanks for letting us know, Sam. Hope you get the win against Preston NE.
Coventry City receive major CBS Arena boost as EFL issues statement
From Cov Telegraph.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-cbs-arena-pitch-24853112 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-cbs-arena-pitch-24853112)
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Can you really be surprised about the legal comment Sam. Given the history of your owners and the obvious thinly veiled insinuations in Boddy’s various statements it was/is an accurate statement. There seems a determination with CCFC fans to try and prove our owners are as bad as yours - I think it must just be to make yourselves feel better about your situation. It’s just not correct.
I really don’t think you have got the point of the part of my post referring to litigation: had four home matches been played there would have been no hint of legal action. Hence what you call Boddy’s thinly veiled accusations. It will be interesting to see whether they do follow that course of action, or take the moral high ground, take it on the chin and do nothing.
The second point, I had genuinely misread the original post. Your owner is described by everyone as being nice and genuine, no one has ever described Joy in such a way. However both are ultimately hoping to make money off the back of our respective clubs and in that regard are similar. Derek may well have a more “ethical” approach (for want of a better word) - he may be more like the old fashioned football club chairman that don’t really exist anymore. The acid test of priorities would be IF Wasps went belly up.
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Can you really be surprised about the legal comment Sam. Given the history of your owners and the obvious thinly veiled insinuations in Boddy’s various statements it was/is an accurate statement. There seems a determination with CCFC fans to try and prove our owners are as bad as yours - I think it must just be to make yourselves feel better about your situation. It’s just not correct.
I really don’t think you have got the point of the part of my post referring to litigation: had four home matches been played there would have been no hint of legal action. Hence what you call Boddy’s thinly veiled accusations. It will be interesting to see whether they do follow that course of action, or take the moral high ground, take it on the chin and do nothing.
The second point, I had genuinely misread the original post. Your owner is described by everyone as being nice and genuine, no one has ever described Joy in such a way. However both are ultimately hoping to make money off the back of our respective clubs and in that regard are similar. Derek may well have a more “ethical” approach (for want of a better word) - he may be more like the old fashioned football club chairman that don’t really exist anymore. The acid test of priorities would be IF Wasps went belly up.
However you forget that you should not have planned for any games until after the 14 August. This was all agreed before you came back.
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Can you really be surprised about the legal comment Sam. Given the history of your owners and the obvious thinly veiled insinuations in Boddy’s various statements it was/is an accurate statement. There seems a determination with CCFC fans to try and prove our owners are as bad as yours - I think it must just be to make yourselves feel better about your situation. It’s just not correct.
I really don’t think you have got the point of the part of my post referring to litigation: had four home matches been played there would have been no hint of legal action. Hence what you call Boddy’s thinly veiled accusations. It will be interesting to see whether they do follow that course of action, or take the moral high ground, take it on the chin and do nothing.
The second point, I had genuinely misread the original post. Your owner is described by everyone as being nice and genuine, no one has ever described Joy in such a way. However both are ultimately hoping to make money off the back of our respective clubs and in that regard are similar. Derek may well have a more “ethical” approach (for want of a better word) - he may be more like the old fashioned football club chairman that don’t really exist anymore. The acid test of priorities would be IF Wasps went belly up.
However you forget that you should not have planned for any games until after the 14 August. This was all agreed before you came back.
Do you know that for a fact?
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For God's sake lets not start this again.
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Can you really be surprised about the legal comment Sam. Given the history of your owners and the obvious thinly veiled insinuations in Boddy’s various statements it was/is an accurate statement. There seems a determination with CCFC fans to try and prove our owners are as bad as yours - I think it must just be to make yourselves feel better about your situation. It’s just not correct.
I really don’t think you have got the point of the part of my post referring to litigation: had four home matches been played there would have been no hint of legal action. Hence what you call Boddy’s thinly veiled accusations. It will be interesting to see whether they do follow that course of action, or take the moral high ground, take it on the chin and do nothing.
The second point, I had genuinely misread the original post. Your owner is described by everyone as being nice and genuine, no one has ever described Joy in such a way. However both are ultimately hoping to make money off the back of our respective clubs and in that regard are similar. Derek may well have a more “ethical” approach (for want of a better word) - he may be more like the old fashioned football club chairman that don’t really exist anymore. The acid test of priorities would be IF Wasps went belly up.
However you forget that you should not have planned for any games until after the 14 August. This was all agreed before you came back.
Do you know that for a fact?
You had to ask the CGC for permission to play a game. Note - not Wasps. You were given the go ahead on an as is basis. Why the EFL ignored your requests for venue adjustment given the CG had been planned for a few years (while your lot were riding around the W Midlands) is anyone's guess. Unless of course SISU never asked the EFL which would suggest this whole debacle was planned from the start.
Sorry Ross!
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Can you really be surprised about the legal comment Sam. Given the history of your owners and the obvious thinly veiled insinuations in Boddy’s various statements it was/is an accurate statement. There seems a determination with CCFC fans to try and prove our owners are as bad as yours - I think it must just be to make yourselves feel better about your situation. It’s just not correct.
I really don’t think you have got the point of the part of my post referring to litigation: had four home matches been played there would have been no hint of legal action. Hence what you call Boddy’s thinly veiled accusations. It will be interesting to see whether they do follow that course of action, or take the moral high ground, take it on the chin and do nothing.
The second point, I had genuinely misread the original post. Your owner is described by everyone as being nice and genuine, no one has ever described Joy in such a way. However both are ultimately hoping to make money off the back of our respective clubs and in that regard are similar. Derek may well have a more “ethical” approach (for want of a better word) - he may be more like the old fashioned football club chairman that don’t really exist anymore. The acid test of priorities would be IF Wasps went belly up.
However you forget that you should not have planned for any games until after the 14 August. This was all agreed before you came back.
Do you know that for a fact?
You had to ask the CGC for permission to play a game. Note - not Wasps. You were given the go ahead on an as is basis. Why the EFL ignored your requests for venue adjustment given the CG had been planned for a few years (while your lot were riding around the W Midlands) is anyone's guess. Unless of course SISU never asked the EFL which would suggest this whole debacle was planned from the start.
Sorry Ross!
Sorry as well Ross
So, you don’t know what was agreed before we came back, and Vaughans statement didn’t say who had asked the CWG for permission to release the (then unused) pitch - or indeed when.
I won’t pursue this any further.
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Can you really be surprised about the legal comment Sam. Given the history of your owners and the obvious thinly veiled insinuations in Boddy’s various statements it was/is an accurate statement. There seems a determination with CCFC fans to try and prove our owners are as bad as yours - I think it must just be to make yourselves feel better about your situation. It’s just not correct.
I really don’t think you have got the point of the part of my post referring to litigation: had four home matches been played there would have been no hint of legal action. Hence what you call Boddy’s thinly veiled accusations. It will be interesting to see whether they do follow that course of action, or take the moral high ground, take it on the chin and do nothing.
The second point, I had genuinely misread the original post. Your owner is described by everyone as being nice and genuine, no one has ever described Joy in such a way. However both are ultimately hoping to make money off the back of our respective clubs and in that regard are similar. Derek may well have a more “ethical” approach (for want of a better word) - he may be more like the old fashioned football club chairman that don’t really exist anymore. The acid test of priorities would be IF Wasps went belly up.
Unfortunately with your owners the hint of litigation is omnipresent.
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Can you really be surprised about the legal comment Sam. Given the history of your owners and the obvious thinly veiled insinuations in Boddy’s various statements it was/is an accurate statement. There seems a determination with CCFC fans to try and prove our owners are as bad as yours - I think it must just be to make yourselves feel better about your situation. It’s just not correct.
I really don’t think you have got the point of the part of my post referring to litigation: had four home matches been played there would have been no hint of legal action. Hence what you call Boddy’s thinly veiled accusations. It will be interesting to see whether they do follow that course of action, or take the moral high ground, take it on the chin and do nothing.
The second point, I had genuinely misread the original post. Your owner is described by everyone as being nice and genuine, no one has ever described Joy in such a way. However both are ultimately hoping to make money off the back of our respective clubs and in that regard are similar. Derek may well have a more “ethical” approach (for want of a better word) - he may be more like the old fashioned football club chairman that don’t really exist anymore. The acid test of priorities would be IF Wasps went belly up.
Unfortunately with your owners the hint of litigation is omnipresent.
Really? Ask Northampton and Birmingham City.
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Deluded.
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VV. Please lock this thread. Permanently. If you want to carry on flogging this dead horse, there 56 pages of shite on DW site. This is aimed at all participants.
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And that is why I took a couple of days thinking whether I should post or not.
I don’t want to flog a dead horse, my comments were reasonable. It’s Shugs who seems unable to comprehend what I was saying and comes back with their typical response.
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VV. Please lock this thread. Permanently. If you want to carry on flogging this dead horse, there 56 pages of shite on DW site. This is aimed at all participants.
I understand you don’t like the thread Ross but you don’t really get to dish out the instructions or aim anything at all participants. Can I suggest if you don’t want to read it you don’t open the thread and leave others to comment as they see fit.
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And that is why I took a couple of days thinking whether I should post or not.
I don’t want to flog a dead horse, my comments were reasonable. It’s Shugs who seems unable to comprehend what I was saying and comes back with their typical response.
Sam, don’t confuse able to comprehend with disagrees with. Deluded summed up all I wanted to say in one word.
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VV. Please lock this thread. Permanently. If you want to carry on flogging this dead horse, there 56 pages of shite on DW site. This is aimed at all participants.
I understand you don’t like the thread Ross but you don’t really get to dish out the instructions or aim anything at all participants. Can I suggest if you don’t want to read it you don’t open the thread and leave others to comment as they see fit.
Shugs: This thread was originally about the possible demise of Worcester Warriors. This is a subject that concerns me, so I cannot ignore this thread.
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Fair enough. Concerns me a great deal too. Let’s try and stay on that then 👍
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And that is why I took a couple of days thinking whether I should post or not.
I don’t want to flog a dead horse, my comments were reasonable. It’s Shugs who seems unable to comprehend what I was saying and comes back with their typical response.
Sam, don’t confuse able to comprehend with disagrees with. Deluded summed up all I wanted to say in one word.
I can understand you not agreeing, but the statement I posted about the potential for litigation before a home game had been played wouldn’t have been alledgedly contemplated if home games had, in fact, been played is surely true. I don’t see how that statement can be disagreed with.
You have an opinion that litigation is omnipresent: something has to present itself which did not occur whilst CCFC were at Northampton or Birmingham, I don’t think that there has been a plot to strike at Wasps via legal means - you can disagree with that but it doesn’t make me deluded.
As is said, it will be interesting to see if any litigation does follow. I assume you will apologise if it doesn’t, I’m sure you will say “told you so” if it does.
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I’m going to shut up for now.
I see the bunting coming out :)
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I’m going to shut up for now.
I see the bunting coming out :)
10m can be bought on amazon.
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I’m going to shut up for now.
I see the bunting coming out :)
10m can be bought on amazon.
Do they do it in sky blue?
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A quick post,
First please remember to be polite. While Sam is making his(her?) points in a courteous way I'm certainly not going to treat them the same as the crap Grendel spouted.
Secondly thread drift happens. Any post that gets multiple pages inevitably changes topic along the way. I get that some people don't want to read an ongoing debate about the respectiev owners of the the two clubs at the CBS Arena, but it doesn't do any harm
Sam, I have no issues with Derek making money, in fact I hope he makes a ridiculously, disgustingly big amount from Wasps. I see no contradiction in being a nice person, and making money. Derek genuinely loves the game, and he regularly goes out of his way to do things for people that he has no need to. I first met him when my son was given the all clear after a year of Chemotherapy and he contacted me to invite the whole family up to a game and to meet the players. He had no reason to, but he did.
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I’m going to shut up for now.
I see the bunting coming out :)
10m can be bought on amazon.
Do they do it in sky blue?
Looks like you have to go to bunting warehouse where they do 10 metres, 24 Pennants per length. Pennant size 200mm x 300mm.
I will try and attach a photo and you can tell me (them?) whether the shade is correct. I can't believe I am posting this :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0058/6740/5423/products/sky-blue_1400x.png?v=1571716671 (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0058/6740/5423/products/sky-blue_1400x.png?v=1571716671)
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In the vague hope if getting this back on track, statement from current warriors owners released.
https://twitter.com/jamespearson88/status/1562880728987488257?t=smf2QpyGniz1qh-7_0-o1Q&s=19
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Thanks, Chunk.
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I’m going to shut up for now.
I see the bunting coming out :)
10m can be bought on amazon.
Do they do it in sky blue?
Looks like you have to go to bunting warehouse where they do 10 metres, 24 Pennants per length. Pennant size 200mm x 300mm.
I will try and attach a photo and you can tell me (them?) whether the shade is correct. I can't believe I am posting this :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0058/6740/5423/products/sky-blue_1400x.png?v=1571716671 (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0058/6740/5423/products/sky-blue_1400x.png?v=1571716671)
Thanks Ross, I owe you one, it does look close to one of the various sky blue that we have worn over the years.
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A quick post,
First please remember to be polite. While Sam is making his(her?) points in a courteous way I'm certainly not going to treat them the same as the crap Grendel spouted.
Secondly thread drift happens. Any post that gets multiple pages inevitably changes topic along the way. I get that some people don't want to read an ongoing debate about the respectiev owners of the the two clubs at the CBS Arena, but it doesn't do any harm
Sam, I have no issues with Derek making money, in fact I hope he makes a ridiculously, disgustingly big amount from Wasps. I see no contradiction in being a nice person, and making money. Derek genuinely loves the game, and he regularly goes out of his way to do things for people that he has no need to. I first met him when my son was given the all clear after a year of Chemotherapy and he contacted me to invite the whole family up to a game and to meet the players. He had no reason to, but he did.
VV I am genuinely glad that your son responded to the chemotherapy. I am sure it was tough for him, but also all your family as well.
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In the vague hope if getting this back on track, statement from current warriors owners released.
https://twitter.com/jamespearson88/status/1562880728987488257?t=smf2QpyGniz1qh-7_0-o1Q&s=19
It all sounds reasonable, but the responses don't seem to believe it. I don't know the details enough to be able to guess how fair the statement is.
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Stick with us Sam. I think you've had a bit of a baptism of fire, but hang in there .... er, not in the fire tho'. We've really imo been amazed by the weird behaviour of Grendal and his/her/their ilk and I think we've got a bit suspicious of newbies. Unfairly sometimes. Blame Grendal - why not. I expect I'm speaking out of turn here but it's how I feel Thanks VV for using the guillotine where necessary.
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What an odd way to communicate. I’m not sure I believe it. A vat bill of £320k that is a few days late does not lead to the action HMRC are taking. There’s lots in there isn’t there. The whole thing strikes me as being a but unprofessional.
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It's a good example of how information gets presented by the press and drip-fed by the people involved.
Whilst they don't explicitly reference it in their statement, the club (if the press are to be believed) owe approx £6m to HMRC. Reading the statement, that doesn't mean the £6m is overdue by part of an overall repayment plan.
Perhaps the £320k VAT bill and the repayment plan were intrinsically linked - i.e. pay the VAT bills late (or other taxes due) and the repayment plan is cancelled/called in hence the winding up petition.
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Worcester Warriors: 'The clock's ticking', warns ex-player Jonny Arr
From the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62608456 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62608456)
"The club have now cancelled their own pre-season media day next Tuesday - and are also not expected to attend the annual Premiership launch on Wednesday."
I would say this is particularly concerning.
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Worcester Warriors: 'The clock's ticking', warns ex-player Jonny Arr
From the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62608456 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62608456)
"The club have now cancelled their own pre-season media day next Tuesday - and are also not expected to attend the annual Premiership launch on Wednesday."
I would say this is particularly concerning.
Club sponsor is paying for them to go to their Glasgow pre-season game next week.
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Oh that really doesn't look good.
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In the vague hope if getting this back on track, statement from current warriors owners released.
https://twitter.com/jamespearson88/status/1562880728987488257?t=smf2QpyGniz1qh-7_0-o1Q&s=19
If they are telling the truth, release the land registry documents concerning transfer of ownership of land. If it shows it happened in 2018/19 like they say, then they're being honest. If it shows it happened in the past 3 months, then they're being economic with the truth.
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If they are telling the truth, release the land registry documents concerning transfer of ownership of land. If it shows it happened in 2018/19 like they say, then they're being honest. If it shows it happened in the past 3 months, then they're being economic with the truth.
Don't need to release it, anyone can obtain land registry records by paying the fee to the land registry.
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Seems council do have a lease on the car park as mentioned.
https://twitter.com/Rreesrugby/status/1563192601230348288?t=qOfxH6AexOUjKe1SANkjyg&s=19
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11152997/Worcester-assistant-coach-Easter-reveals-stress-club-seeking-escape-winding-petition.html
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I understand there is a supportive article in today's Sunday Times by (surprisingly) Stephan Jones. I don't have a way through the firewall, so would be grateful if anyone can do a copy and paste job. Thanks.
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If they are telling the truth, release the land registry documents concerning transfer of ownership of land. If it shows it happened in 2018/19 like they say, then they're being honest. If it shows it happened in the past 3 months, then they're being economic with the truth.
Don't need to release it, anyone can obtain land registry records by paying the fee to the land registry.
Indeed. Wife works for them, and this is very true. However, might take a while to get them.
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I understand there is a supportive article in today's Sunday Times by (surprisingly) Stephan Jones. I don't have a way through the firewall, so would be grateful if anyone can do a copy and paste job. Thanks.
Here you go….
Threat of Worcester Warriors’ tragic demise matters little to wake of circling vultures
Stephen Jones
Sunday August 28 2022, 12.01am, The Sunday Times
It has been a horrible week, one in which sympathy and understanding were out of town, and joined on the outskirts by humanity and concern. Worcester Warriors have all kinds of financial problems and two owners who have had to deny strongly they sold off bits of the grand stadium complex effectively to themselves. They insist they did it to pay the long-suffering players.
And surrounding what could be the death throes of a magnificent club, there has been something akin to the scene where bloody-mouthed jackals surround a regal, dying animal. Rank opportunism is everywhere. In so much of the discussion and reportage on Worcester’s problems, people have asked if the rest of the Premiership clubs may be able to recruit the Worcester players and still stay within the new salary cap; there have been crass observations that, should Worcester die, then at least player welfare is aided because there will be two fewer games. It’s like ending global hunger because fewer people are alive and need feeding.
One or two fools even predicted that the Premiership would be gaily able to carry on as normal. Sorry, but if Worcester are allowed to die then it will be the biggest blow the Premiership has ever suffered when the tournament itself — for many reasons — is struggling. Can they afford to lose a great rugby club, one with a fabulous story? Because that is precisely what Worcester are.
If you have ever been to Sixways you will recognise one of the best facilities in the Premiership, facilities built from scratch. The Warriors are a real rugby club, they also compete in the women’s Allianz Premier 15s and have teams for youngsters and less able players. They have a spacious car park a few minutes from a motorway junction and a superb stadium. On their best days their attendances are excellent, with passion spilling out all over. They have sold out for the major games.
But did you read one word this week about the devastation that Worcester’s demise would cause to fans and rugby itself in the city and the surrounding area? Quite simply, the Warriors are the lifeblood to many, a community jewel. They are everything a city rugby club is meant to be.
The backstory is something else. They began so lowly that even to play on a park pitch was a triumph. But then, piloted by the wonderful and generous Cecil Duckworth, their late former owner, they thundered up through division after division. Duckworth set up Sixways and his beloved club as a professional outfit. They worked ferociously on the climb, were on the verge of the Premiership for a long time, held up only by a few damnable results and old-guard jealousy.
My colleague, Stuart Barnes, has been critical of their playing record in the top flight. It is no crime not to win the Premiership. They have almost always been competitive and I have always felt that they were three class players away from threatening the top four. I have seen some fantastic games at Sixways, notably the day they saved themselves from relegation on the last day of the season with a performance of such passion that their supporters were left in tears. That in essence is the spirit of Worcester Warriors.
They have made mistakes, of course, in recruitment, selection and scattergun team building. And with owners. When they were last for sale just over two seasons ago, one of the bidders was an outstanding South African rugby man of passion and wealth. He would have retained as coach the great South African, Gary Gold, and was being guided by Ed Griffiths, who along with Mark Evans is the father of the Premiership and all its good practices.
And what did Worcester do? They sold the club to two businessmen, Jason Whittingham and Colin Goldring and kept as coach Alan Solomons, whose record in professional rugby in Europe is worse than melancholy. The owners seem to be not so much betraying a legacy as urinating on it.
It is too soon to have to feel anything remotely resembling optimism, although Jim O’Toole, a sportsman and a forceful sports businessman who once ran the club, is putting together a group which he hopes could make a successful bid. Steve Diamond, the ideal coach for tough times, is in place.
If Worcester are saved from administration then so too will be the momentum of the Premiership. The passion for the club of their fans will be able to flow into the future. Worcester Warriors not a great club? Take in your history, and you will conclude that there are few greater — and conclude also that humanity, even in the baleful world of club rugby, is everything.
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Thanks.
I’d like to say good read but Jones never uses a word when a paragraph will suffice. (He’s the same on their podcast).
Dig aside, he makes some fair points but it’s all looking in the rear view mirror. Rugby, not just Worcester, needs clear headed leadership without historical baggage. As a famous singer sang: The times, they are a changing.
And no, I don’t have a solution.
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Thanks for posting.
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Thanks. He I basically right, though I winced at the reference to Ed Griffiths.
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The consent solicitation for a variation to the terms of the Wasps bonds was promised in August - and did not get delivered.
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Incorrect Sam. Technically there is no legal deadline.
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Incorrect Sam. Technically there is no legal deadline.
My statement is entirely correct.
“The board, therefore, considers the appropriate course of action is to seek an extension of the bonds to allow time for the completion of the refinancing. The issuer is now working on the proposed bond terms to be amended and will formally launch a consent solicitation process in August once the proposed terms have been finalised.”
Of course yours, whilst splitting hairs, is also correct.
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Why raise it then.
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Why raise it then.
It is a 'deadline' which has been passed. Whether it was a deadline in the true sense of the word, the fact that nothing has been said at all would point to the fact that things may not be moving as fast as the club would like. The statement raised expectations that something would happen in August, but apparently, if it has, it is only minimal otherwise there would have been more talk from Bond holders. So, I think it is fair enough to raise. In isolation it doesn't look great, but other signs are more positive such as the lifting of the recruitment ban, signing of agreements and so on. For what it is worth I think these conflicting signs suggest as a club we are still deep in the forest, but may have found a track to follow that may lead to safety or to the wicked witches cottage and we will only know when we get there.
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Why raise it then.
Because I correctly reported a fact and you said I was incorrect.
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Why raise it then.
It is a 'deadline' which has been passed. Whether it was a deadline in the true sense of the word, the fact that nothing has been said at all would point to the fact that things may not be moving as fast as the club would like. The statement raised expectations that something would happen in August, but apparently, if it has, it is only minimal otherwise there would have been more talk from Bond holders. So, I think it is fair enough to raise. In isolation it doesn't look great, but other signs are more positive such as the lifting of the recruitment ban, signing of agreements and so on. For what it is worth I think these conflicting signs suggest as a club we are still deep in the forest, but may have found a track to follow that may lead to safety or to the wicked witches cottage and we will only know when we get there.
When I was working, if my boss said something had to be done by the end of, say, August - or if I said I would do something by the end of August, that was a deadline with the expectation that it would be met.
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Why raise it then.
It is a 'deadline' which has been passed. Whether it was a deadline in the true sense of the word, the fact that nothing has been said at all would point to the fact that things may not be moving as fast as the club would like. The statement raised expectations that something would happen in August, but apparently, if it has, it is only minimal otherwise there would have been more talk from Bond holders. So, I think it is fair enough to raise. In isolation it doesn't look great, but other signs are more positive such as the lifting of the recruitment ban, signing of agreements and so on. For what it is worth I think these conflicting signs suggest as a club we are still deep in the forest, but may have found a track to follow that may lead to safety or to the wicked witches cottage and we will only know when we get there.
When I was working, if my boss said something had to be done by the end of, say, August - or if I said I would do something by the end of August, that was a deadline with the expectation that it would be met.
Agreed, and the lack of any announcement is not great, but other news is more positive and points to some movement, which is why I drew the conclusion that it's not a basket case. Time is going to tell whether the positive signs are indicators that we are moving towards the light at the end of the tunnel, or if it is just a train coming towards us. One thing is for sure, there is sod all I can do about it either way.
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Too reminiscent of the DW to and fro.
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Too reminiscent of the DW to and fro.
With someone constantly poking a subject with a stick.
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Isn’t to and fro what discussion is about? If everybody had the same view, there would be nothing to discuss. I accept that the bonds issue if a pretty big stick, but failure to redeem on time and to keep within self pronounced timescales is pretty big news too.
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With SBS on this.
Wasps have missed a self imposed time frame on the bond, without, as far as we know, any communication. I didn't know that till SBS pointed it out.
Its news, its important, although as other have said, not a lot we can do about it!
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Isn’t to and fro what discussion is about? If everybody had the same view, there would be nothing to discuss. I accept that the bonds issue if a pretty big stick, but failure to redeem on time and to keep within self pronounced timescales is pretty big news too.
Yes Sam we get it it's all you keep banging on about.
Any mention of anything else in this thread and you keep doing is 'what about the bonds'.
It's getting a bit tedious now.
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“A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.”
― Winston S. Churchill
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Isn’t to and fro what discussion is about? If everybody had the same view, there would be nothing to discuss. I accept that the bonds issue if a pretty big stick, but failure to redeem on time and to keep within self pronounced timescales is pretty big news too.
Yes Sam we get it it's all you keep banging on about.
Any mention of anything else in this thread and you keep doing is 'what about the bonds'.
It's getting a bit tedious now.
To be fair, as far as I can see there are three sets of main creditors, the directors, the bond holders. Two of those are likely to put the club out of business if not kept onside. SBSam's news was new and significant and therefore relevant. I would say the bond holders must be having their patience stretched massively now, let's hope the positive stuff is indicative of a package being pulled together to resolve the bond issue. If not then I think 'what about the bonds' is a relevant thing to bring up.
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It is Rifleman but it’s pretty obvious Sam wants to just feed bad news in under a thinly veiled premise of discussion. It’s all just a bit of a wind up - in my opinion.
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"The issuer is now working on the proposed bond terms to be amended and will formally launch a consent solicitation process in August once the proposed terms have been finalised."
Let's highlight the other bit. Perhaps the terms haven't been finalised. If the terms are being put together with the input of major bondholders (I'd presume this is allowed and indeed sensible), then it could be that things are still being hammered out.
It could even be signs of good news. There's no need to launch a consent solicitation process if the bond is simply going to be paid.
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Isn’t to and fro what discussion is about? If everybody had the same view, there would be nothing to discuss. I accept that the bonds issue if a pretty big stick, but failure to redeem on time and to keep within self pronounced timescales is pretty big news too.
Yes Sam we get it it's all you keep banging on about.
Any mention of anything else in this thread and you keep doing is 'what about the bonds'.
It's getting a bit tedious now.
To be fair, as far as I can see there are three sets of main creditors, the directors, the bond holders. Two of those are likely to put the club out of business if not kept onside. SBSam's news was new and significant and therefore relevant. I would say the bond holders must be having their patience stretched massively now, let's hope the positive stuff is indicative of a package being pulled together to resolve the bond issue. If not then I think 'what about the bonds' is a relevant thing to bring up.
There is already a thread about the bonds try finding it and give us all a bit of a break.
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I haven't exposed myself to SBT ( ;) )..so maybe I have a higher tolerance of it. If they are trying to wind people up, then they seem a bit too rational to me and miss a load of chances to twist the knife.
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Isn’t to and fro what discussion is about? If everybody had the same view, there would be nothing to discuss. I accept that the bonds issue if a pretty big stick, but failure to redeem on time and to keep within self pronounced timescales is pretty big news too.
Yes Sam we get it it's all you keep banging on about.
Any mention of anything else in this thread and you keep doing is 'what about the bonds'.
It's getting a bit tedious now.
To be fair, as far as I can see there are three sets of main creditors, the directors, the bond holders. Two of those are likely to put the club out of business if not kept onside. SBSam's news was new and significant and therefore relevant. I would say the bond holders must be having their patience stretched massively now, let's hope the positive stuff is indicative of a package being pulled together to resolve the bond issue. If not then I think 'what about the bonds' is a relevant thing to bring up.
There is already a thread about the bonds try finding it and give us all a bit of a break.
Good point. Thank you for your considered and thoughtful response.
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Isn’t to and fro what discussion is about? If everybody had the same view, there would be nothing to discuss. I accept that the bonds issue if a pretty big stick, but failure to redeem on time and to keep within self pronounced timescales is pretty big news too.
Yes Sam we get it it's all you keep banging on about.
Any mention of anything else in this thread and you keep doing is 'what about the bonds'.
It's getting a bit tedious now.
To be fair, as far as I can see there are three sets of main creditors, the directors, the bond holders. Two of those are likely to put the club out of business if not kept onside. SBSam's news was new and significant and therefore relevant. I would say the bond holders must be having their patience stretched massively now, let's hope the positive stuff is indicative of a package being pulled together to resolve the bond issue. If not then I think 'what about the bonds' is a relevant thing to bring up.
There is already a thread about the bonds try finding it and give us all a bit of a break.
Good point. Thank you for your considered and thoughtful response.
Sorry RH it wasn't aimed at you.Only looking for news about Worcester.
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"The issuer is now working on the proposed bond terms to be amended and will formally launch a consent solicitation process in August once the proposed terms have been finalised."
Let's highlight the other bit. Perhaps the terms haven't been finalised. If the terms are being put together with the input of major bondholders (I'd presume this is allowed and indeed sensible), then it could be that things are still being hammered out.
It could even be signs of good news. There's no need to launch a consent solicitation process if the bond is simply going to be paid.
There was clearly an expectation that the terms would have been finalised in sufficient time before the end of August in order that the revised terms could be offered for acceptance or rejection in August. This is similar to the statements that we have agreed terms with HSBC, we are finalising terms with HSBC, we are pursuing alternative financing - all at various points in this debacle as the end point has been kicked further and further down the road.
However, your point about the lack of need for a Solicitation if the bonds are simpler going to be repaid is a good one. However, if there was an expectation that this would be the case, why not update the bondholders?
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Isn’t to and fro what discussion is about? If everybody had the same view, there would be nothing to discuss. I accept that the bonds issue if a pretty big stick, but failure to redeem on time and to keep within self pronounced timescales is pretty big news too.
Yes Sam we get it it's all you keep banging on about.
Any mention of anything else in this thread and you keep doing is 'what about the bonds'.
It's getting a bit tedious now.
To be fair, as far as I can see there are three sets of main creditors, the directors, the bond holders. Two of those are likely to put the club out of business if not kept onside. SBSam's news was new and significant and therefore relevant. I would say the bond holders must be having their patience stretched massively now, let's hope the positive stuff is indicative of a package being pulled together to resolve the bond issue. If not then I think 'what about the bonds' is a relevant thing to bring up.
There is already a thread about the bonds try finding it and give us all a bit of a break.
Good point. Thank you for your considered and thoughtful response.
Sorry RH it wasn't aimed at you.Only looking for news about Worcester.
There is a post specifically about Worcester.
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Can I, as a bond holder, make an interjection?
Basically they missed the repayment termination date, but at least I am still getting a return at an interest rate that many others can only dream about.
I don't need the capital amount for anything urgent, so am more than happy to let them take as long as they like to sort the fine details of the new arrangement out. Ok some others might be in a situation where they need the money, but as I was once told "don't invest in anything that is handled by the stock exchange unless you are prepared to lose the investment"
Yes it seems a bit of an awkward situation, but what with COVID etc. I am not surprised about the situation.
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SBsam this thread was started about another club being in trouble not about bonds.
The club in question is Worcester.
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For what it's worth, I feel that Sam puts his/her thoughts down in a perfectly acceptable way.
Yes, he/she definitely has a viewpoint opposing most of us on this forum, and that's often a pretty big sign of a troll.
However, as long as the views and points being made are relevant, new, and not insulting, then I don't have a problem with it at all.
In fact, it's quite insightful to hear the views from the other side without the vitriol that it often comes with
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Big Plus 1 with Sam and RogerE
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SBsam this thread was started about another club being in trouble not about bonds.
The club in question is Worcester.
I know, but the thread was titled Big News and the bind default is pretty big news for Wasps, potentially existential. There weren’t any posts on this thread for 3 days as I think the majority were posting about Worcester on the newer Worcester thread.
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SBsam this thread was started about another club being in trouble not about bonds.
The club in question is Worcester.
I know, but the thread was titled Big News and the bind default is pretty big news for Wasps, potentially existential. There weren’t any posts on this thread for 3 days as I think the majority were posting about Worcester on the newer Worcester thread.
Or maybe there has been no news on the bonds for weeks so you post about them in threads where it certainly isn't relevant.
Start a thread about bonds and fill your boots.
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For what it's worth, I feel that Sam puts his/her thoughts down in a perfectly acceptable way.
Yes, he/she definitely has a viewpoint opposing most of us on this forum, and that's often a pretty big sign of a troll.
However, as long as the views and points being made are relevant, new, and not insulting, then I don't have a problem with it at all.
In fact, it's quite insightful to hear the views from the other side without the vitriol that it often comes with
Here’s something I never thought I would hear me say - thank you Wasps :)
My view is not necessarily a view from the other side, it is a view without being influenced by an undying love for Wasps whilst having experienced the pain caused by our current ownership.
Part of that view is that many of the potential income generation opportunities that would throw Wasps a financial lifeline seem to be separate, or being separated from, Wasps. This is things like the training ground, the hotel application by Richardson, the formation of 4, albeit currently dormant, Richardson companies having Ricoh/CBS as accommodation address. These things are done by design not accident.
There was money to be made from regenerating the area around the arena, the Arena Quarter or AQ if you like. Such development was central to Coventry Councils agreement to and subsequent involvement with the arena, and the belief that Wasps would deliver on that agenda was a significant plank in the argument to get unanimous council support for the sale to Wasps. Profits from such enterprises may well have made Wasps truly the richest rugby club in Europe.
I know Wasps supporters will hear nothing against DR, but back in 2014 he was saying that he was neither intending to profit from Wasps nor was he a property developer. The first part has come to pass inadvertently , but the intent to personally develop property does seem to be there - albeit not yet activated. The lines between Wasps and Richardson companies are very blurred and that could be advantageous for anyone looking for council support for building projects - which can then harm Wasps image/ reputation if they are seen to fall by the wayside whilst not necessarily contributing to Wasps financial bottom line if they succeed.
Obviously purely speculation and there could be any number of other interpretations but it is a narrative which brings together a number of facts and seeks to explain them. Before anyone else says it, explain could be exchanged for exploit.
To a certain extent, I hope that the bonds are paid off in the next few weeks - it would remove one level of uncertainty about my own club’s future.
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SBsam this thread was started about another club being in trouble not about bonds.
The club in question is Worcester.
I know, but the thread was titled Big News and the bind default is pretty big news for Wasps, potentially existential. There weren’t any posts on this thread for 3 days as I think the majority were posting about Worcester on the newer Worcester thread.
Or maybe there has been no news on the bonds for weeks so you post about them in threads where it certainly isn't relevant.
Start a thread about bonds and fill your boots.
Are you in a position to tell me what to do?
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SBsam this thread was started about another club being in trouble not about bonds.
The club in question is Worcester.
I know, but the thread was titled Big News and the bind default is pretty big news for Wasps, potentially existential. There weren’t any posts on this thread for 3 days as I think the majority were posting about Worcester on the newer Worcester thread.
Or maybe there has been no news on the bonds for weeks so you post about them in threads where it certainly isn't relevant.
Start a thread about bonds and fill your boots.
Are you in a position to tell me what to do?
Unfortunately not I would of binned you weeks ago.
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Keep trockin' Sam. I hope you get to meet Derek some day and then you will understand what a genuine bloke he is. We aren't being dazzled by sparkle dust. There are one or so players etc whom I can't stand and they had sparkle dust in abundance .... Elliot and Fiver for starters.
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Would also ad that Nick Eastwood (CEO) and his wife, are really nice folks too, and very much rugby fans. Had the pleasure of meeting them on one of the very few visits to the Ricoh I've managed. His wife was very excited to spread the news of the Quins vs saints (I think) game, the one where the clock was in the red, Quins held the lead, but Botica inexplicably kicked the ball infield rather than off the pitch.
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SBsam this thread was started about another club being in trouble not about bonds.
The club in question is Worcester.
I know, but the thread was titled Big News and the bind default is pretty big news for Wasps, potentially existential. There weren’t any posts on this thread for 3 days as I think the majority were posting about Worcester on the newer Worcester thread.
Or maybe there has been no news on the bonds for weeks so you post about them in threads where it certainly isn't relevant.
Start a thread about bonds and fill your boots.
Are you in a position to tell me what to do?
Unfortunately not I would of binned you weeks ago.
Have
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I think VV you are being taken for a ride here.
No more, IMO.
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Raggs - totally agree.
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I'm quite happy with Sam's contributions.
He writes words...and its other people who add meaning (and it seems annoyance) to those words.
As Peter Crone says..."life presents you with people and circumstances to reveal where you are not free"
If people didn't react to opposing opinions....then there would be no issue.
It's a choice.
Don't click on the topic 'Big News' if you don't want to read Sam's alternative views and considerations.
For me...it's all healthy debate, which is a good thing. Take it or leave it.
And like everyone else, I'm hoping for a healthy outcome sooner rather than later.
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What debate is Sam starting? It seems to be just a straightforward listing of a fact such as “I see the bond hasn’t been repaid”. Personally I’m happy for him to post till the cows come home - it’s his time.
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Can I, as a bond holder, make an interjection?
Basically they missed the repayment termination date, but at least I am still getting a return at an interest rate that many others can only dream about.
I don't need the capital amount for anything urgent, so am more than happy to let them take as long as they like to sort the fine details of the new arrangement out. Ok some others might be in a situation where they need the money, but as I was once told "don't invest in anything that is handled by the stock exchange unless you are prepared to lose the investment"
Yes it seems a bit of an awkward situation, but what with COVID etc. I am not surprised about the situation.
As a Wasp fan, it’s unsurprising and indeed laudable that you take that view. However, many other bondholders took the view, on investing, that there were cast iron securities in the form of the arena (head lease) which would always have some significant value, and also all the share capital in ACL and ACL2006 - whose value could fluctuate more widely. There still isn’t an expectation from them that they will lose their investments, it will be how long they are prepared to wait, and under what conditions they are expected to wait, that will be the issue for Wasps. At the moment they seem prepared to give some limited additional time for Wasps - and if refinancing has been arranged I am sure they, and you, will be happy to get their investment back.
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SBsam this thread was started about another club being in trouble not about bonds.
The club in question is Worcester.
I know, but the thread was titled Big News and the bind default is pretty big news for Wasps, potentially existential. There weren’t any posts on this thread for 3 days as I think the majority were posting about Worcester on the newer Worcester thread.
Or maybe there has been no news on the bonds for weeks so you post about them in threads where it certainly isn't relevant.
Start a thread about bonds and fill your boots.
Are you in a position to tell me what to do?
Unfortunately not I would of binned you weeks ago.
Have
Oh dear is that the best you've got.
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Give it a rest, Ad. If you want a fight, go to DW.
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Give it a rest, Ad. If you want a fight, go to DW.
I'm cool thanks.
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"The issuer is now working on the proposed bond terms to be amended and will formally launch a consent solicitation process in August once the proposed terms have been finalised."
Let's highlight the other bit. Perhaps the terms haven't been finalised. If the terms are being put together with the input of major bondholders (I'd presume this is allowed and indeed sensible), then it could be that things are still being hammered out.
It could even be signs of good news. There's no need to launch a consent solicitation process if the bond is simply going to be paid.
There was clearly an expectation that the terms would have been finalised in sufficient time before the end of August in order that the revised terms could be offered for acceptance or rejection in August. This is similar to the statements that we have agreed terms with HSBC, we are finalising terms with HSBC, we are pursuing alternative financing - all at various points in this debacle as the end point has been kicked further and further down the road.
However, your point about the lack of need for a Solicitation if the bonds are simpler going to be repaid is a good one. However, if there was an expectation that this would be the case, why not update the bondholders?
I suspect you've seen the latest update, looks like I may well have been correct.
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"The issuer is now working on the proposed bond terms to be amended and will formally launch a consent solicitation process in August once the proposed terms have been finalised."
Let's highlight the other bit. Perhaps the terms haven't been finalised. If the terms are being put together with the input of major bondholders (I'd presume this is allowed and indeed sensible), then it could be that things are still being hammered out.
It could even be signs of good news. There's no need to launch a consent solicitation process if the bond is simply going to be paid.
There was clearly an expectation that the terms would have been finalised in sufficient time before the end of August in order that the revised terms could be offered for acceptance or rejection in August. This is similar to the statements that we have agreed terms with HSBC, we are finalising terms with HSBC, we are pursuing alternative financing - all at various points in this debacle as the end point has been kicked further and further down the road.
However, your point about the lack of need for a Solicitation if the bonds are simpler going to be repaid is a good one. However, if there was an expectation that this would be the case, why not update the bondholders?
I suspect you've seen the latest update, looks like I may well have been correct.
Yes you may well have been, but as I said on the good news thread Wasps said they were in a similar position with HSBC in May. As I also said on the other thread, if they manage to pull this off it will be good news for all Wasps supporters.
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No lender would have let a statement like this go if it weren’t virtually done. It is also good news for you Sam as it means you get to carry on playing at the CBS.
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No lender would have let a statement like this go if it weren’t virtually done. It is also good news for you Sam as it means you get to carry on playing at the CBS.
We would have any way, we have a 10 year lease agreement.
HSBC let the statement go out in May and then in June.
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Stadium upkeep costs paid by who? Not SISU. Not CCC. I think you’ll find it’s redeemed Sam - not the news you wanted I know.
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Stadium upkeep costs paid by who? Not SISU. Not CCC. I think you’ll find it’s redeemed Sam - not the news you wanted I know.
But he has to keep poking!
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Stadium upkeep costs paid by who? Not SISU. Not CCC. I think you’ll find it’s redeemed Sam - not the news you wanted I know.
But he has to keep poking!
I’m not poking, it’s a fact that the bonds haven’t actually been redeemed yet. It’s bondholders who are saying that they are in a worse position than before - now no timetable and just a repeat of what was said about HSBC three months ago. If it comes to pass then great, but just don’t count chickens etc. on the other hand, someone called John Dawkins who seems to claim to be itk on all sorts of matters (and Shuggs would otherwise call a hack) suggested a few days ago that Wasps had got a deal. So may be it’s true, and if so good luck to you.
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Indeed. And will carry on doing so.
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Stadium upkeep costs paid by who? Not SISU. Not CCC. I think you’ll find it’s redeemed Sam - not the news you wanted I know.
But he has to keep poking!
I’m not poking, it’s a fact that the bonds haven’t actually been redeemed yet. It’s bondholders who are saying that they are in a worse position than before - now no timetable and just a repeat of what was said about HSBC three months ago. If it comes to pass then great, but just don’t count chickens etc. on the other hand, someone called John Dawkins who seems to claim to be itk on all sorts of matters (and Shuggs would otherwise call a hack) suggested a few days ago that Wasps had got a deal. So may be it’s true, and if so good luck to you.
One bondholder I think. Not that you’d care to relay it but one other is cautiously optimistic. Time to get Wasps and CCFC winning now - then everyone benefits (especially Wasps 😉)
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Shugs, you forgot to mention the reported “barrage of cynical catcalls”. Let’s see what develops over the next week.
In the meantime, some wins would be good.
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Agreed. I fear your owners have dropped you in it somewhat with the Hyam sale but you’re still good enough for mid table - which is an achievement given the circumstances. I don’t follow closely but I’m confused as to why holding on to your three best assets has been so badly received in terms of the transfer window?
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Agreed. I fear your owners have dropped you in it somewhat with the Hyam sale but you’re still good enough for mid table - which is an achievement given the circumstances. I don’t follow closely but I’m confused as to why holding on to your three best assets has been so badly received in terms of the transfer window?
People simply expected more than keeping them, a view that a bit of investment would make us promotion prospects - especially given the record st sales. However, it doesn’t sound as if we have got the proverbial pot to pee in, the Hyam sale was a huge surprise yet didn’t give enough cash to reinvest. Not having a poke, but the postponed three games will have created a cash flow problem which the Hyam sale will probably have merely plugged.
But that’s just my take on it - as usual.
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Article in today's Guardian.
Storm clouds hang over Premiership with clubs facing uncertain future
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/03/storm-clouds-hang-over-premiership-with-clubs-facing-uncertain-future (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/03/storm-clouds-hang-over-premiership-with-clubs-facing-uncertain-future)
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Diamond’s pithiest soundbite – “A top-class rugby union player is a Coronation Street actor compared to a Premiership footballer who is a Hollywood star”
Not wrong
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Diamond’s pithiest soundbite – “A top-class rugby union player is a Coronation Street actor compared to a Premiership footballer who is a Hollywood star”
Not wrong
Not wrong indeed, especially when you factor in Premiership Rugby Players earn approximately the same money in a year what the Premier League Footballers earn in a week.
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Wasps have biggest debt in RU according to Mail on Sunday, £112m with £9.5m to HMRC. Does make you wonder who would lend, and at what rate, to repay the bondholders.
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Is the Mail correct??
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Wasps have biggest debt in RU according to Mail on Sunday, £112m with £9.5m to HMRC. Does make you wonder who would lend, and at what rate, to repay the bondholders.
And yet our lodgers look like they will go into administration first.
Looks like the SISU backers have had enough.
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Is the Mail correct??
Do the numbers. Our income has been very low for the last 3 years. £37.5 M bond, interest paid probably £20 M and not finished. Salaries, tax bills, stadium upkeep, Derek's loans .....................................++++
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The interest paid is not debt though. 112m sounds too high. Certainly not seen any accounts with that on.
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Is the Mail correct??
No.