Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Wombles on September 23, 2022, 09:43:07 PM
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The good, the bad and the lucky
Will the monkey off our back finally stop these second forty performances?
Enjoy the win, do not ignore the frailties.
You know what they say, 29 points is a shaky old lead in rugby. They like to keep us on tenterhooks. Once again it is a Jekyll and Hyde performance. 5 point away wins are not to be sniffed at, but we cannot keep doing what we are doing in second halves. Is it tactics? Is it psychological? Is it a combination…..possibly.
Let’s hope though that this is the start of better days, that in 2 weeks we have a club to continue loving and supporting.
Get the beers out boys.
Chris
Once A Wasp ALWAYS a Wasp.
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Bath scored 2 tries, both converted, when Jack was in the bin. I actually thought the card was a little harsh as it seemed to me McNally (was it) lead with his head.
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Bath scored 2 tries, both converted, when Jack was in the bin. I actually thought the card was a little harsh as it seemed to me McNally (was it) lead with his head.
I agree, but if you enter the tackle area upright and not bending at the hip you run the risk. Personally felt it was more a rugby incident as Jack was passive, but that’s the current interpretation.
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Bath scored 2 tries, both converted, when Jack was in the bin. I actually thought the card was a little harsh as it seemed to me McNally (was it) lead with his head.
+1
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We got Put of our stride by far too many unnecessary changes. We just spiral out of control and give so many penalties away.
A week off then 3 very hard games, which are going to be difficult to get a win, especially if we are so generous with penalties.
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I don't think Bath would have got even close to touching distance if Jack had not been binned.
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I don't think Bath would have got even close to touching distance if Jack had not been binned.
Nah, there was a momentum swing before Willis went off. It was part of it.
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I'll give credit to the lads. They played well for 40-50 mins, especially considering everything going on off the pitch. I was proud to support this team, irrespective of my frustrations.
That said, we really do collapse quite easily. Really bizarre, it was something Gloucester struggled with for years. Looks like we've caught the bug now.
Umaga was better for distribution, but then again was he just doing what Atkinson has been doing prior? His lack of pace compared to Crossdale cost us a try, and he still doesn't feel like an actual fullback.
Tom and Jack were fantastic (aside from Jack's Yellow, Tom could've also got a yellow for a similar incident).
Odendaal's offload to Porter was outrageous filth, genuinely thought it was intercepted.
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Let’s be honest - the first half was sublime. Attack looked transformed as things stuck. Umaga added craft and the centres look like gelling. Bassett dangerous again. Willis and Willis immense as was Carr, West and Alo. Second half I’d liked to have seen West, Alo and Porter go a bit longer. But our defence was solid in that last 10. Kibirige looks a lost soul who really needs to come out of the matchday 23. Final mention to Tom Willis - back at 8 and was just fantastic as part of a much better balanced back row. 5 points away - good stuff.
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The problem with being a Wasps fan is that when we're 29 points up I can't help but think "we'll get a losing bonus point as long as we don't concede more than 36 points now".
I thought Umaga at 15 added so much as a second playmaker. As good as Odendaal is, we missed that influence in the first two matches.
I'd spent much of the day telling a friend who is a Bath fan how we'd lose with Porter at 9 and Spink at 13, but Spink had a great game and Dobby showed when he came on why he isn't starting.
Class comments from Johann van Graan wishing us well. I can think of at least one South African Coach who could do with a lesson from him on being classy in defeat.
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Jacob was passing really well tonight and kicked well but wow he is not comfortable under the high ball, difficult to hold onto a fall back position if you struggle under the high ball.
Good on him for the rest of his game from a long layoff
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Atkinson seems pretty sturdy. Maybe we should be defending with Charlie at 15?
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My takeaway from that game is that Bath aren't as good as Glaws. Yet again we should have had it in the bag and yet again we capitulated. Thankfully for us Bath didn't have the ruthlessness to take it.
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That really was game of two half’s. Can’t be any debate now over who would play at 8, Jack looks like he’s getting back to his best, Nemo you could be forgiven for forgetting just how good he is. I’ve been Jacobs biggest critic in here but I thought he played well tonight, still rubbish under the high balls and other teams will target that, still think he’s 3rd choice fullback. At the minute it’s Porter over Robson for me. Spink growing with every game, Basset looking dangerous again. 5 points and lots of positives, I actually thought it took a lot of balls to hang on and win tonight, don’t get me wrong it should never have been even close but when Bath got on a roll it could have been so easy to collapse and lose. Biggest positive for me was the fact the backs looked dangerous again.
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Agree Bath are worse than Glaws but I’d also say we showed more grit and smarts in the last 10 and I’d also add that our attacking was better than against Glaws. The reality is we have to stop this capitulation business becoming a “thing”. Hopefully tonight goes a small way towards that. Two other points - set piece was solid and some of Atkinson’s kicking from hand was excellent.
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Umaga looked great in attack but we can't play him at full back. He is a massive liability.
We have some really exciting young wingers who should be getting a chance. Didn't see anything of Kilbridge in attack and he's awful defensively.
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I don't think Bath would have got even close to touching distance if Jack had not been binned.
Nah, there was a momentum swing before Willis went off. It was part of it.
Yup
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I'll give credit to the lads. They played well for 40-50 mins, especially considering everything going on off the pitch. I was proud to support this team, irrespective of my frustrations.
That said, we really do collapse quite easily. Really bizarre, it was something Gloucester struggled with for years. Looks like we've caught the bug now.
Umaga was better for distribution, but then again was he just doing what Atkinson has been doing prior? His lack of pace compared to Crossdale cost us a try, and he still doesn't feel like an actual fullback.
Tom and Jack were fantastic (aside from Jack's Yellow, Tom could've also got a yellow for a similar incident).
Odendaal's offload to Porter was outrageous filth, genuinely thought it was intercepted.
Yup. That Odendaal offload had me giggling like a little girl. But yup to all of that. I like Umaga but there’s still the odd moment of half-heartedness that annoys. Couple of high balls he wimped out of tonight again. He has so much going for him, I just wanna shake him. Look at Atkinson, and how he has NEVER shied away from the battle.
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I don't think Bath would have got even close to touching distance if Jack had not been binned.
Nah, there was a momentum swing before Willis went off. It was part of it.
Yup
Still, Bath scored 2 tries (both converted) when we were a man light in the pack when Jack was off. I still contend they wouldn't have got close if Jack hadn't copped for that yellow.
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I'll give credit to the lads. They played well for 40-50 mins, especially considering everything going on off the pitch. I was proud to support this team, irrespective of my frustrations.
That said, we really do collapse quite easily. Really bizarre, it was something Gloucester struggled with for years. Looks like we've caught the bug now.
Umaga was better for distribution, but then again was he just doing what Atkinson has been doing prior? His lack of pace compared to Crossdale cost us a try, and he still doesn't feel like an actual fullback.
Tom and Jack were fantastic (aside from Jack's Yellow, Tom could've also got a yellow for a similar incident).
Odendaal's offload to Porter was outrageous filth, genuinely thought it was intercepted.
Yup. That Odendaal offload had me giggling like a little girl. But yup to all of that. I like Umaga but there’s still the odd moment of half-heartedness that annoys. Couple of high balls he wimped out of tonight again. He has so much going for him, I just wanna shake him. Look at Atkinson, and how he has NEVER shied away from the battle.
At the moment, Atkinson has the 10 shirt but for the kicking. He should be spending his every waking minute practising kicking so that Jacob never gets a look in. But, based on what we have seen, he isn't doing that. Saying that, our starting backs bar #14 were getting to where they need to be. I would get Manny in to the first team starting if I were Lee. And keep Kibirige away from the matchday 23, not starting, not as a replacement. Even a prop would be a better choice right now.
How Gabi did not get pinged for his repeated in from the side infringements in mauls I do not know. He really is a hot headed penalty magnet. Somebody needs to give him a serious slapping about the head to get him to calm down.
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A good performance from Bassett, especially his first try. Also very good in following up kicks and challenging whoever was waiting to catch the ball.
What’s happened to Kibiridge? He started so well with us.
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Big thing for me was that in the first two games we actually looked like a team that would win a lot of games, Ugo’s stats confirmed that before the match. In spite of the doom and gloom on here over our play pre-Bath I saw that we were creating a lot of problems for teams which we haven’t been doing for the last couple of years. And we’re doing this with loads of youth (admittedly these youths are starting to get a little bit older/experienced).
In spite of the second half tonight, ahem, the biggest issue for me is STILL our maul. For well over 10 years now we’ve comfortably had the worst maul in the league, attacking and defensively. Every now and then we improve a little but tonight we were back to normal. I hate that it’s such a crucial part of the game but Jesus wept, how can every other team pass muster on this but we haven’t for over 10 years? We’re finally addressing our scrum problems through personnel (not before time) but we’re not gonna win the league until we can maul. I know we’ve got bigger problems at the moment but from a coaching side? Whack the obvious mole. Glad to have won tonight though. Great backrow performance. I thought Jack was a certain red card with no complaints. Good to see a bit of sense coming through though. Agreed with Blackett about momentum reffing in the post-match interview, but reffing will never be perfect.
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I don't think Bath would have got even close to touching distance if Jack had not been binned.
Nah, there was a momentum swing before Willis went off. It was part of it.
Yup
Still, Bath scored 2 tries (both converted) when we were a man light in the pack when Jack was off. I still contend they wouldn't have got close if Jack hadn't copped for that yellow.
I was agreeing with the fact that we were in trouble before JW went off. You speculate what you want.
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I don't think Bath would have got even close to touching distance if Jack had not been binned.
Nah, there was a momentum swing before Willis went off. It was part of it.
Yup
Still, Bath scored 2 tries (both converted) when we were a man light in the pack when Jack was off. I still contend they wouldn't have got close if Jack hadn't copped for that yellow.
I was agreeing with the fact that we were in trouble before JW went off. You speculate what you want.
Kind of you to allow me. At least one poster on Bath's board agrees with my 'speculation'.
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A good performance from Bassett, especially his first try. Also very good in following up kicks and challenging whoever was waiting to catch the ball.
What’s happened to Kibiridge? He started so well with us.
Bassett always gives 100%, always has. Sometimes the ball comes to him with enough space to work in (tonight) and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes the kicks are good and sometimes they’re aimless. He can’t make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear. It happened for him tonight. As for Kibirige, how can he tear it up when he’s got sweet FA to work with? He’s had naff all decent ball so far this year. Did Hougaard tear it up before he went off?
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I don't think Bath would have got even close to touching distance if Jack had not been binned.
Nah, there was a momentum swing before Willis went off. It was part of it.
Yup
Still, Bath scored 2 tries (both converted) when we were a man light in the pack when Jack was off. I still contend they wouldn't have got close if Jack hadn't copped for that yellow.
I was agreeing with the fact that we were in trouble before JW went off. You speculate what you want.
Kind of you to allow me. At least one poster on Bath's board agrees with my 'speculation'.
Opinions are allowed, I refer you to my previous post. Personally I’m not so sure Bath wouldn’t have scored regardless. Just my opinion of course.
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Before we go all hard arsed on Kiberige, worth rewatching the week before to see Spink looking terrible. I will repeat that, terrible, and I am certain would agree with that, if not with me as a humble fan saying it. This week he was magnificent. That is the curse of Wasps backs- every week someone has a total nightmare, but then next week they look great and somebody else. Yes, Kiberige was totally and utterly dire, and has been out of mojo for a while, but what we need is for a week where nobody has the nightmare. Not Jacob, not Dobby, not Kiberige, just nobody.
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Not a lot of the ball went left this week for Kibirige and he didn’t come off his wing as much this week looking for action. Unfortunately for him a lot of Bath ball went left and Muir looked far superior.
Odogwu may be back, Crossdale can play wing and IF-W might deserve a go too next week.
Such a relief to get the win but our decision making again when under pressure almost let us down.
Gabe in at the side, the Jacob high tackle, Launchbury offside is maybe a bit more excusable as that can happen to anyone like that and the Kibirige push all cost us valuably in points and territory.
Also when we had chance to get possession or play territory again whatever happened at the back of that maul between Dobby and Gabe was awful and another poor decision.
We often compound a shift in momentum by adding to it with poor decisions
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Last season when the scrum half was swapped it upped the tempo and we’d all be screaming for Lele to make the substitution at about 55 minutes.
On the limited evidence so far this season the tempo is dropping off when the substitution is made and we’re all screaming at Lee for making the change.
As someone used to say, its a funky old game.
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Another thought: Nemo gives us another jumper in the lineout. He took some good ones yesterday.
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and IF-W might deserve a go too next week.
I'm with you on that call.
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and IF-W might deserve a go too next week.
I'm with you on that call.
Bit of a catch 22 now, Kibirige probably won’t be considered on Tuesday after playing on Friday so we play Feyi-Waboso instead, but then he subsequently won’t play the following weekend against Saints because of the turnaround.
We have enough other young guns to play on Tuesday like Dawkins, Rokodrava, Kucera but it’s against Leicester so need to play a decent team too. Maybe Odogwu and IF-W split shifts at 14 ready to challenge for the right wing spot against Saints along with Mehson as it has to be up for grabs now.
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and IF-W might deserve a go too next week.
I'm with you on that call.
Bit of a catch 22 now, Kibirige probably won’t be considered on Tuesday after playing on Friday so we play Feyi-Waboso instead, but then he subsequently won’t play the following weekend against Saints because of the turnaround.
We have enough other young guns to play on Tuesday like Dawkins, Rokodrava, Kucera but it’s against Leicester so need to play a decent team too. Maybe Odogwu and IF-W split shifts at 14 ready to challenge for the right wing spot against Saints along with Mehson as it has to be up for grabs now.
Have you forgotten that next weekend is our bye week?
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It’s not even the attacking part of Kibirige’s game that worries me - I see the argument he’s had little ball. It’s the way Muir just ran past him, the way he bit in for their first try, the push that was stupid. He barely gets out of a jog at the moment and it’s a season long thing.
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Is it my imagination (probably) but was play noticeably faster without the presence of the uber-active waterboys? I thought it was a big improvement.
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Is it my imagination (probably) but was play noticeably faster without the presence of the uber-active waterboys? I thought it was a big improvement.
+1
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Let’s be honest - the first half was sublime. Attack looked transformed as things stuck. Umaga added craft and the centres look like gelling. Bassett dangerous again. Willis and Willis immense as was Carr, West and Alo. Second half I’d liked to have seen West, Alo and Porter go a bit longer. But our defence was solid in that last 10. Kibirige looks a lost soul who really needs to come out of the matchday 23. Final mention to Tom Willis - back at 8 and was just fantastic as part of a much better balanced back row. 5 points away - good stuff.
Having now watched the whole game,, that's all fair. Tom at 8 was class, Jack as expected and Carr brilliant. Set piece ok, Westy looked solid and I always like Oghre at 2 for preference. But....wtf was going on after 45 mins? We started and completed the first half like a team and like a team comfortable in its plans and execution. And yet, I really thought we were going to lose (I knew the result....obvs) as we seemed to suddenly discard rational decision making for making mistakes and conceding silly penalties. We slowed up our play it seemed too. Not sure if that was an attempt to put our foot on the ball....but it failed to impress. Dan looked v frustrated again and again. It seemed we weren't adapting to the reffing as well as "second half Bath."
I'm relieved with the win and the points - but someone within the coaching team is going to have to identify wtf is going on or ask themselves if they are making tactical errors into the second halves. It wasn't helpful that Jack W went off for a card - but we seemed to be "stagnating" before that.
Specific issues. Full back, Jacob was playing as a great second 5/8th but really isn't a full back....Kibirige is not up to scratch. We know what he can do, perhaps time for a "lend" to get some game time?
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and IF-W might deserve a go too next week.
I'm with you on that call.
Bit of a catch 22 now, Kibirige probably won’t be considered on Tuesday after playing on Friday so we play Feyi-Waboso instead, but then he subsequently won’t play the following weekend against Saints because of the turnaround.
We have enough other young guns to play on Tuesday like Dawkins, Rokodrava, Kucera but it’s against Leicester so need to play a decent team too. Maybe Odogwu and IF-W split shifts at 14 ready to challenge for the right wing spot against Saints along with Mehson as it has to be up for grabs now.
Have you forgotten that next weekend is our bye week?
Yes I did, bit of a shame to come at this stage really now we could push on with the momentum.
In which case, anyone who’s not had a game or many minutes and is fit plays against Leicester - put a strong team out and then every spot is up for grabs after the bye week
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Mike.
That's a good point regarding 2nd half tactics.
It could very definitely be a kind of plan to try to slow the game down and have more control in the 2nd half when we have a significant lead.
Afterall, we've all commented on how we often seem to still try to play open in the last 5 minutes when defending a small lead.
Unfortunately, it would seem that the team isn't comfortable with a slower, tighter plan if their instincts are to play running rugby.
Maybe the answer is to just let them, and try to deal with closing out games differently
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Let’s be honest - the first
half was sublime. Attack looked transformed as things stuck. Umaga added craft and the centres look like gelling. Bassett dangerous again. Willis and Willis immense as was Carr, West and Alo. Second half I’d liked to have seen West, Alo and Porter go a bit longer. But our defence was solid in that last 10. Kibirige looks a lost soul who really needs to come out of the matchday 23. Final mention to Tom Willis - back at 8 and was just fantastic as part of a much better balanced back row. 5 points away - good stuff.
Having now watched the whole game,, that's all fair. Tom at 8 was class, Jack as expected and Carr brilliant. Set piece ok, Westy looked solid and I always like Oghre at 2 for preference. But....wtf was going on after 45 mins? We started and completed the first half like a team and like a team comfortable in its plans and execution. And yet, I really thought we were going to lose (I knew the result....obvs) as we seemed to suddenly discard rational decision making for making mistakes and conceding silly penalties. We slowed up our play it seemed too. Not sure if that was an attempt to put our foot on the ball....but it failed to impress. Dan looked v frustrated again and again. It seemed we weren't adapting to the reffing as well as "second half Bath."
I'm relieved with the win and the points - but someone within the coaching team is going to have to identify wtf is going on or ask themselves if they are making tactical errors into the second halves. It wasn't helpful that Jack W went off for a card - but we seemed to be "stagnating" before that.
Specific issues. Full back, Jacob was playing as a great second 5/8th but really isn't a full back....Kibirige is not up to scratch. We know what he can do, perhaps time for a "lend" to get some game time?
Agree re Umaga. On balance I think it’s a close call between him, Crossdale and Minozzi. None are the whole package at the moment.
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Mike.
That's a good point regarding 2nd half tactics.
It could very definitely be a kind of plan to try to slow the game down and have more control in the 2nd half when we have a significant lead.
Afterall, we've all commented on how we often seem to still try to play open in the last 5 minutes when defending a small lead.
Unfortunately, it would seem that the team isn't comfortable with a slower, tighter plan if their instincts are to play running rugby.
Maybe the answer is to just let them, and try to deal with closing out games differently
It is far easier to play out the last five minutes camped in the opposition 5m with a hefty lead. Playing a slower game would be an insane game plan for Wasps. That they appear to have done this for the last 3 games is piling insanity upon insanity. That has to be a coaching goal. When we play fast, we can win.
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Mike.
That's a good point regarding 2nd half tactics.
It could very definitely be a kind of plan to try to slow the game down and have more control in the 2nd half when we have a significant lead.
Afterall, we've all commented on how we often seem to still try to play open in the last 5 minutes when defending a small lead.
Unfortunately, it would seem that the team isn't comfortable with a slower, tighter plan if their instincts are to play running rugby.
Maybe the answer is to just let them, and try to deal with closing out games differently
It is far easier to play out the last five minutes camped in the opposition 5m with a hefty lead. Playing a slower game would be an insane game plan for Wasps. That they appear to have done this for the last 3 games is piling insanity upon insanity. That has to be a coaching goal. When we play fast, we can win.
It just struck me today. I knew the result, was able to watch the whole game and make notes.....And it seemed a stand out yesterday and then I thought back to the last two games....It just seemed to be deliberate/planned. But better judges than me will have an opinion!
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Let’s be honest - the first
half was sublime. Attack looked transformed as things stuck. Umaga added craft and the centres look like gelling. Bassett dangerous again. Willis and Willis immense as was Carr, West and Alo. Second half I’d liked to have seen West, Alo and Porter go a bit longer. But our defence was solid in that last 10. Kibirige looks a lost soul who really needs to come out of the matchday 23. Final mention to Tom Willis - back at 8 and was just fantastic as part of a much better balanced back row. 5 points away - good stuff.
Having now watched the whole game,, that's all fair. Tom at 8 was class, Jack as expected and Carr brilliant. Set piece ok, Westy looked solid and I always like Oghre at 2 for preference. But....wtf was going on after 45 mins? We started and completed the first half like a team and like a team comfortable in its plans and execution. And yet, I really thought we were going to lose (I knew the result....obvs) as we seemed to suddenly discard rational decision making for making mistakes and conceding silly penalties. We slowed up our play it seemed too. Not sure if that was an attempt to put our foot on the ball....but it failed to impress. Dan looked v frustrated again and again. It seemed we weren't adapting to the reffing as well as "second half Bath."
I'm relieved with the win and the points - but someone within the coaching team is going to have to identify wtf is going on or ask themselves if they are making tactical errors into the second halves. It wasn't helpful that Jack W went off for a card - but we seemed to be "stagnating" before that.
Specific issues. Full back, Jacob was playing as a great second 5/8th but really isn't a full back....Kibirige is not up to scratch. We know what he can do, perhaps time for a "lend" to get some game time?
Agree re Umaga. On balance I think it’s a close call between him, Crossdale and Minozzi. None are the whole package at the moment.
Well, both Matteo and Ali are out for quite a few weeks, so Jacob better stay fit. If we need rotation, can WH-W play 15?
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Mike.
That's a good point regarding 2nd half tactics.
It could very definitely be a kind of plan to try to slow the game down and have more control in the 2nd half when we have a significant lead.
Afterall, we've all commented on how we often seem to still try to play open in the last 5 minutes when defending a small lead.
Unfortunately, it would seem that the team isn't comfortable with a slower, tighter plan if their instincts are to play running rugby.
Maybe the answer is to just let them, and try to deal with closing out games differently
It is far easier to play out the last five minutes camped in the opposition 5m with a hefty lead. Playing a slower game would be an insane game plan for Wasps. That they appear to have done this for the last 3 games is piling insanity upon insanity. That has to be a coaching goal. When we play fast, we can win.
Playing a slower game may not be the right terminology.
But would it be so insane to have a big lead at half time and then ask the players to be a little more careful with some of their loose play, and maybe play a little safer.
That would seem fairly sensible.
However, when it comes to implementing that, it comes down to how that's interpreted by the team and by individuals, and how they carry it out when put under pressure.
It's also distinctly possible that it's not entirely conscious.
Maybe with such a big lead, players naturally back off a little bit. You see it a lot in all sports. A football team may be 5 or 6 goals up at half time, but they never score another 5 or 6 in the 2nd half.
.... And finally, there's the opposition to consider.
Their coaches can see that what they were doing in the 1st half wasn't working and they'll change things.
On the other hand, we may go out and do what we were doing before, but now it doesn't work
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Watching Saints v Tigers was along the same lines today. Saints got ahead through expansive phases and identifying the space Tigers were exposing with their kick chase.
Saints had a solid lead so Tigers tightened up and took the ball into contact, winning collisions and drawing numbers into the ruck and the physicality did for Northampton. I think we need to be wary of numbers in the ruck as we seem to be on the backfoot at the breakdown once momentum shifts and opponents look for the arm wrestle.
Having said that Tigers were helped by an atrocious refereeing performance by Dickson, who really is over excitable and pushing the levels of competence at the moment.
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Watching Saints v Tigers was along the same lines today. Saints got ahead through expansive phases and identifying the space Tigers were exposing with their kick chase.
Saints had a solid lead so Tigers tightened up and took the ball into contact, winning collisions and drawing numbers into the ruck and the physicality did for Northampton. I think we need to be wary of numbers in the ruck as we seem to be on the backfoot at the breakdown once momentum shifts and opponents look for the arm wrestle.
Having said that Tigers were helped by an atrocious refereeing performance by Dickson, who really is over excitable and pushing the levels of competence at the moment.
Don't forget the Tigers dominant set piece!
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Watching Saints v Tigers was along the same lines today. Saints got ahead through expansive phases and identifying the space Tigers were exposing with their kick chase.
Saints had a solid lead so Tigers tightened up and took the ball into contact, winning collisions and drawing numbers into the ruck and the physicality did for Northampton. I think we need to be wary of numbers in the ruck as we seem to be on the backfoot at the breakdown once momentum shifts and opponents look for the arm wrestle.
Having said that Tigers were helped by an atrocious refereeing performance by Dickson, who really is over excitable and pushing the levels of competence at the moment.
Don't forget the Tigers dominant set piece!
I'd always rather see a dominant scrum used to restart a game rather than milk penalties. With the kind of scrum strength that Tigers had, I can almost see them deliberately knock on to gain a scrum, get a penalty and then kick for goal and gain 3 points. That's not rugby to me.
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Watching Saints v Tigers was along the same lines today. Saints got ahead through expansive phases and identifying the space Tigers were exposing with their kick chase.
Saints had a solid lead so Tigers tightened up and took the ball into contact, winning collisions and drawing numbers into the ruck and the physicality did for Northampton. I think we need to be wary of numbers in the ruck as we seem to be on the backfoot at the breakdown once momentum shifts and opponents look for the arm wrestle.
Having said that Tigers were helped by an atrocious refereeing performance by Dickson, who really is over excitable and pushing the levels of competence at the moment.
Don't forget the Tigers dominant set piece!
I'd always rather see a dominant scrum used to restart a game rather than milk penalties. With the kind of scrum strength that Tigers had, I can almost see them deliberately knock on to gain a scrum, get a penalty and then kick for goal and gain 3 points. That's not rugby to me.
OK let's nullify any team getting a scrum advantage in case it leads to penalties, how about we get rid of the flankers, front row barely bind and ball is thrown even more directly to 8 (or loose forward) so the or has that already been done in RL? Be plenty of us on here who would not have had a role in RU if that was the case.
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Watching Saints v Tigers was along the same lines today. Saints got ahead through expansive phases and identifying the space Tigers were exposing with their kick chase.
Saints had a solid lead so Tigers tightened up and took the ball into contact, winning collisions and drawing numbers into the ruck and the physicality did for Northampton. I think we need to be wary of numbers in the ruck as we seem to be on the backfoot at the breakdown once momentum shifts and opponents look for the arm wrestle.
Having said that Tigers were helped by an atrocious refereeing performance by Dickson, who really is over excitable and pushing the levels of competence at the moment.
Don't forget the Tigers dominant set piece!
I'd always rather see a dominant scrum used to restart a game rather than milk penalties. With the kind of scrum strength that Tigers had, I can almost see them deliberately knock on to gain a scrum, get a penalty and then kick for goal and gain 3 points. That's not rugby to me.
OK let's nullify any team getting a scrum advantage in case it leads to penalties, how about we get rid of the flankers, front row barely bind and ball is thrown even more directly to 8 (or loose forward) so the or has that already been done in RL? Be plenty of us on here who would not have had a role in RU if that was the case.
Ooooh Chunk, you're a bit spikey this morning :) When I played, 'not straight' was quite rigorously enforced and a dominant scrum rarely lost one against the head and took their share as well. That to me was what dominant scrummaging meant. I played hooker/TH. As we were often lighter in the pack, my instruction to the scrummie was 'get it in as soon as we're down'. Hoping that the oppo weren't quite ready.
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Watching Saints v Tigers was along the same lines today. Saints got ahead through expansive phases and identifying the space Tigers were exposing with their kick chase.
Saints had a solid lead so Tigers tightened up and took the ball into contact, winning collisions and drawing numbers into the ruck and the physicality did for Northampton. I think we need to be wary of numbers in the ruck as we seem to be on the backfoot at the breakdown once momentum shifts and opponents look for the arm wrestle.
Having said that Tigers were helped by an atrocious refereeing performance by Dickson, who really is over excitable and pushing the levels of competence at the moment.
Don't forget the Tigers dominant set piece!
I'd always rather see a dominant scrum used to restart a game rather than milk penalties. With the kind of scrum strength that Tigers had, I can almost see them deliberately knock on to gain a scrum, get a penalty and then kick for goal and gain 3 points. That's not rugby to me.
OK let's nullify any team getting a scrum advantage in case it leads to penalties, how about we get rid of the flankers, front row barely bind and ball is thrown even more directly to 8 (or loose forward) so the or has that already been done in RL? Be plenty of us on here who would not have had a role in RU if that was the case.
Ooooh Chunk, you're a bit spikey this morning :) When I played, 'not straight' was quite rigorously enforced and a dominant scrum rarely lost one against the head and took their share as well. That to me was what dominant scrummaging meant. I played hooker/TH. As we were often lighter in the pack, my instruction to the scrummie was 'get it in as soon as we're down'. Hoping that the oppo weren't quite ready.
Apologies if came across spiky just feel a powerful / competitive scrum is becoming an annoyance to many and as soon as a team has one they are labelled as anti-rugby or boring despite it not being their fault an opposition cant cope and give penalties away.
Think the term dominant in modern rugby is all about overpowering and physical disintegration, we hear of dominant tackles, dominant collisions, dominant gain line etc like you say taking one or more against the head used to count as dominant but now it is about wearing those opposition forwards down physically to create space around the field.
We also didn't need 5 minutes, 3 collapses and resets to get a scrum done in our day either!
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But now you don't wear forwards down physically as there are another 5 or possibly 6 on the bench, waiting with fresh legs to come on. My gripe about milking penalties is that it can become predictable as it did yesterday and, as it is a strength, then teams play to it. Also, potentially 3 points or more if the penalty is kicked into the 22, is IMO too much of a possible sanction for what might have resulted from just a dropped pass or a little fumble.
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+1
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But now you don't wear forwards down physically as there are another 5 or possibly 6 on the bench, waiting with fresh legs to come on. My gripe about milking penalties is that it can become predictable as it did yesterday and, as it is a strength, then teams play to it. Also, potentially 3 points or more if the penalty is kicked into the 22, is IMO too much of a possible sanction for what might have resulted from just a dropped pass or a little fumble.
Agree with this both from the POV of playing as a prop in a dominant pack at times and IRO how the Laws are written. The purpose of a scrum is to restart play with a contest for possession after a minor infringement or stoppage
And you can see how that "purpose" is interpreted differently between hemispheres when watching (say) NZ Provincial Rugby - where once the ball is won, that team is more often required to play the ball. It seems out of proportion that conceding a "minor infringement" can mean a penalty, kick and lineout from what - as you note - was probably an accidental infringement.....
I'd want the scrum to be a contest for possession - per the Laws' intent - except for 5m scrums, where a push over might be considered ok. But I'd also want the Laws thought about such that the ability to push over is related to more serious infringements - deliberate maul drops, offside, in at the side etc. BUT....preferably in conjunction with a wide ranging review of the Laws re the maul and obstruction. And other matters around how players approach trying to get over the line with heads held at 10cm off the ground...
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My view is why, if you've got a dominant scrum, should you be awarded a penalty?
You don't award a penalty to the team that has the fastest winger.
Nearly all scrum penalties should be changed to free kicks. Only remain penalties for repeated infringements (e.g. dropping bind, wheeling etc.) or foul play. Enforce the straight put-in and don't reset if the scrum collapses once it has been hooked.
In fact I'd replace all non-foul play penalties with free kicks
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My view is why, if you've got a dominant scrum, should you be awarded a penalty?
You don't award a penalty to the team that has the fastest winger.
Nearly all scrum penalties should be changed to free kicks. Only remain penalties for repeated infringements (e.g. dropping bind, wheeling etc.) or foul play. Enforce the straight put-in and don't reset if the scrum collapses once it has been hooked.
In fact I'd replace all non-foul play penalties with free kicks
You also don't tell the fastest winger to slow down because his pace is too dominant!
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but you don't send the opposing winger off because he's slower.
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but you don't send the opposing winger off because he's slower.
If he resorts to doing something illegal to nullify the faster wingers dominance e.g repeated offside, early tackles etc then he runs the risk of that, same as a dominated prop repeatedly collapsing, early engage etc.
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Another aspect of the game that pleased me is that Josh seems to have got his mojo back.
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Another aspect of the game that pleased me is that Josh seems to have got his mojo back.
Mojo or not Josh certainly suffered from service denial by others!
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In general, teams are aware that they can't solely focus on scrum dominance, otherwise we'd have 22 stone props, and bigger hookers.
What we have are converted flankers as hookers, and in general, rare athletic freaks at prop.
The combination of scrummaging power, pace, stamina etc. that we see from modern props is a rare physical skillset which is why top level props are usually expensive.
I tend to think that those teams that really excel at scrummaging are those that maybe do put sightly more emphasis on it at recruitment time, but who also invest significantly more time on the practice field.
Especially with changes to law interpretation, the extra time practicing allows the team to adapt quickly and for the forwards to become a tighter scrummaging unit.
It is a little awkward though with regards to the penalties when a scrum is more dominant than another one.
A knock on is seen as a minor offence so shouldn't lead to a penalty. So knock on --> scrum --> penalty is not something that was really intended.
Free kicks for knock ons solves this, but it's a big step towards rugby League rules
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Are we just playing the game back to front? I'm watching Exeter v Quins and the latter were well behind in the first half but are now (59 minute) only 3 points behind. Sorry ... 4 points in front now! Should we lose the first half instead off scoring amazingly do you think? ???
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Has anyone seen a full match link on the PRL site?
All of Saturdays matches are there (too early for the Exe match yesterday)
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Has anyone seen a full match link on the PRL site?
All of Saturdays matches are there (too early for the Exe match yesterday)
I think they only link full matches that haven't been shown on BT.
I could be wrong.....
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Has anyone seen a full match link on the PRL site?
All of Saturdays matches are there (too early for the Exe match yesterday)
I think they only link full matches that haven't been shown on BT.
I could be wrong.....
All 6 matches from rounds 1 and 2 are there....
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Has anyone seen a full match link on the PRL site?
All of Saturdays matches are there (too early for the Exe match yesterday)
I think they only link full matches that haven't been shown on BT.
I could be wrong.....
I recall (correctly I hope) that they only show live those matches that are not on BT, but all matches are available after a day or so.