Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: wasps on December 16, 2022, 07:53:18 PM
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Given the news today, I thought I'd start this to keep track of rumours of coding / playing staff.
I can't believe that we'll see any international level players.
Or income is going to be minimal, therefore wage bill needs to be minimal.
I think there was a rumour the other day about Cipriani playing for next season
Has there been any others?
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No
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wasps - what a welcome thread after recent months! The construction of this squad is going to be fascinating. I’ve heard no rumours re previous squad members and our cloth will obviously have to be cut accordingly. Based on absolutely nothing at all I’d be ecstatic to see a squad based around a core of say Harris, Cruse, Millar-Mills, Vukasinovic, Morris, Wolstenholme, Spink, Bacon, Kibirige.
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That's not a bad start but let's start with a coach or two.
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Perhaps £5 will be up for a player/coach role.
Loving the fact that we get to have this conversation.
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All I want to say is isnt it nice to be talking about who could be playing for us. It feels almost like normal. Thank you legends.
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All I want to say is isnt it nice to be talking about who could be playing for us. It feels almost like normal. Thank you legends.
+1
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Torn on who we'd sign, especially given ambiguity of state of the leagues, specifically promotion and relegation.
Would players formally of this parish come back? A few I think would, but at expense of international game time assuming we're in the championship? Probably not.
I could see a fair few academy lads and such come back, but fringe international players no. Really interested how we bounce back.
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I think the ridiculously low offers a lot of players got may play in our favour. Especially as they get to work out of the EPIC. If the money is there it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that we could be looking at promotion again after only one season.
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We will probably never know in detail but the new owners will need a fair wack of money to get a team up and running. The need to attract players is great so £ will need to be spent.
Might become clearer after the NY. I would hope once clear of RFU's requirements there might be an announcement to fans after all they will need to attract us!
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That's not a bad start but let's start with a coach or two.
Fair point. Fowkes? Johnson? Gopperth? I’d be surprised if the incumbent isn’t already known.
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I said Neil Fowkes on another thread because I haven't seen him pop up anywhere plus good Championship knowledge. Gopps a good call. Also Fiver might be a good dual player/coach (not defence or tackling).
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If we're aiming for promotion, we'd have to stick to a £5m salary cap, and look for a bigger ground for next season.
I'd be happy with getting some grounding and work on becoming competitive. Being one of the best teams in the championship will not be easy when you're starting from scratch.
Someone previously said that some of the championship clubs work to a wage bill of up to £2m.
A 30 man squad, £2m... Average £65k per player.
As a rough stab in the dark, if that's the finances we'd be working with, then the highest paid player would probably be around £100k, and there won't be more than 1 or 2 of them
If that £2m has to cover coaching as well, then things drop down a little.
They'll also drop even lower of we need nearer to 40 players in the squad
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Ashley Johnson please. Not only because he will do a great job, but we owe him. And that is what this must be about.
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Ashley Johnson please. Not only because he will do a great job, but we owe him. And that is what this must be about.
I signed back in to say exactly this.
I don't know if he'd want to be a player, but I'd be happy with him as a coach.
He's also a link to Wasps of the last 10 years.
It's a shame that Simmo has just announced his retirement. A season or 2 with him at 9 would make it feel like Wasps
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It’s going to be a competitive league (probably more competitive than the Prem) I assume Wuss will be there and looking at the McGuigan mid year transfer I wouldn’t be surprised to see Falcons in there as well leaving 10 in the Prem. Some good Champ teams already in situ. Looking forward to it.
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Does anyone have any knowledge on how the Championship generally works in terms of wages etc.
I know Ealing are the only fully professional club and your Jonah Holmes’ etc earn pretty well but how much does your average squad player at a Doncaster or a Jersey earn?
If semi professional are they just paid match fees, do some work other jobs, is it only training a few days a week?
I think we need to get our expectations in line of how much money this rebranded wasps have before we start thinking whether an available Tom West, Tim Cardall, Zack Kibirige etc would be anywhere remotely affordable
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Does anyone have any knowledge on how the Championship generally works in terms of wages etc.
I know Ealing are the only fully professional club and your Jonah Holmes’ etc earn pretty well but how much does your average squad player at a Doncaster or a Jersey earn?
If semi professional are they just paid match fees, do some work other jobs, is it only training a few days a week?
I think we need to get our expectations in line of how much money this rebranded wasps have before we start thinking whether an available Tom West, Tim Cardall, Zack Kibirige etc would be anywhere remotely affordable
There's an article in the Yorkshire post from a couple of years ago saying that Carnegie had a wage bill rumoured to be £2.3m, but they were planning to trim it to £650k for the following year due to their financial issues.
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/yorkshire-carnegie-players-could-boycott-doncaster-knights-derby-over-pay-fears-633667 (https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/yorkshire-carnegie-players-could-boycott-doncaster-knights-derby-over-pay-fears-633667)
So, if that was true, it may suggest that £2m+ is too high a salary bill to maintain financial stability, and presumably £650k is at the lower end of what's possible.
As you say though, it's hard to know what the more semi-pro clubs are doing
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Another article here from 2018 that says £30-40k would be for the highest paid player in the squad
https://www.talkingrugbyunion.co.uk/what-to-do-about-championship-rugby-/22158.htm
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The stated goal is to get back to the Premiership, so I think we have to assume there is the money there to pay for a half decent squad. Add in the ground rental, the admin staff, the training centre, the academy.
And then we have the whole buying back our P Share thing.
If I had to guess I'd say £20M is a low end estimate for what it's gonna cost to get us there.
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Morning everyone.. been a long time reader of this forum, first post!
Still riding the excitement wave of yesterdays announcement. Appreciate there is some way to go yet but certainly be interesting to see who we can cobble together for a squad. Wouldnt mind seeing Gopps and Smashley taking the coaching reigns either as some have touted.
Just a thought though... with the proposed changes to the league structure in 24/25 there might not be a need to buy a P share so to speak which may free up a bit of cash to pay some of the bigger names. Plus we've heard of a lot of the guys wanting to continue with the club if it survived, so we might get a few nice surprises of those who would take a pay cut to pull on the black and gold again. It'll be an interesting couple of weeks/months ahead.
One thing for sure is its nice to be able to have these discussions again.
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Spend some cash. Get promotion. Take up that huge good will a few of the prospects we had still have towatds the club because in five to ten years they will be ex players. Just one big ish name signing and a few academy players would do.
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I’d guess in the coming months wasps will regularly appear in the rumours/made up pages of TRP by Fissler.
Just read that Andy Robinson has just resigned from his post at Romania, surprised he hasn’t put that one together yet.😂
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I queried the Cipriani rumour with a member of the new Legends consortium when it appeared and was assured that said former player would more likely be coming back from retirement than Cips had been signed.
Wether that is likely to change I don't know. But the rumour at the time was purely that.
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We may get former players interested who have homes in the Coventry area. We also need to get a team going soon if possible to build cohesion and fitness.
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They can’t get a squad together until the season ends and then as I see it, it’s going to be be mostly players out of contract who couldn’t find another club because I can’t see many turning a contract down now on the off chance Wasps offer them one later.
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Whilst I wouldn't be against Lee returning if he wanted to and that would assist with some 'former' players returning, the suggestions regarding Neil Fowkes might be good with his Championship experience?
Not sure if Richard Blaze has a new position as yet either?
However, I was at the Coventry v Richmond game yesterday and the 2 injured Coventry players who did the pre match Q & A were absolutely "gushing" about the ability and quality that Ed Robinson has added as a coach since he joined them a few weeks ago.
I think he was also well liked by the Wasps lads as well and seemed to be a well-liked member of the backroom staff.
Players-wise I think it will depend on what the overall top divisions structure looks like and how likely we may be to step straight back into the Prem given Budgets etc?
The EPIC is a big draw and I'd love to see some of the recent Academy prospects come back and maybe the likes of Cruse, Harris, Morris, Curran, Spink, Wusty, West, Millar Mills, Crossdale, Frosty, radon Wood, Hartley, Nearchou maybe even Jacob?
Interesting times? :)
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I would love to see Tom Willis back! Jack would be highly unlikely as I think Toulouse will want to keep him and he will be beyong the reach of a Championship club. The other players I would love to realistically see back are Tim Cardall and Eliott Stooke.
As mentioned above, how wonderful to even be having these conversations again!
I will be at the first game next season for sure!!
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Martin B .......... Yes yes! My top 3 as well. Both Tom and Elliot would be (have been) excellent Captains, and top players.
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Add Charlie Atkinson to that trio.
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No chance those players like Charlie will return.
I know it is Christmas and we are all ( apart from a few especially on DW) ecstatic about the news but we need to be realistic that this has to be a building exercise both building a team and funding.
Spend, spend, spend it ain't going to be.
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+1 - Charlie is already an absolute star in my eyes as are both Willis brothers.
To get Tom back would be great - if that works for his career?
Think Tim has already signed somewhere for next year? he is in Australia for 6 months, but a smart lad so think he will have something "sorted".
To say that I don't care who wears the shirt is wrong because I do - massively, but I will put my trust in The Legends to deliver the best that they can in terms of coaches and players and then it is down to us to back them next season because what we have all gone through as fans has been horrible (and much worse for the players and staff as well).
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To say that I don't care who wears the shirt is wrong because I do - massively, but I will put my trust in The Legends to deliver the best that they can in terms of coaches and players and then it is down to us to back them next season because what we have all gone through as fans has been horrible (and much worse for the players and staff as well).
Even though I've struggled to get to games - it still matters to me who wears the shirt. I self identified as a proud Wasps back in 87 at the RWC in Oz & NZ, where I wanted Wasps players to excel. Probyn, Rendall, Davies, Andrew, Simms, Bailey - enjoyed seeing Kevin S scoring vs Japan at Concord Oval as an example. And I was a self identified Wasps fan at Tigers - the only one in a block of Tigers fans. Watching Tom V scoring a good one -getting up and cheering, only to bow, sarcastically, to amassed Tigers, thanking them for their support :-)
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There are probably more talented players looking for a spot than there has ever been. For a couple of seasons at least Wasps could attract players if they believe they can ride with them back to the Premiership.
Got to admit I am a little cautious about all of this. I want to see Wasps rise, but not sure If like where that takes them. I don't really have much desire or stomach to watch Premiership and have preferred following our ex-players in French teams. Really hope the reorganisation is more than just painting over cracks...
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IMO anyone who thinks Wasps in the Championship will attract any of this seasons players back to play for them is delusional.
If any of them have decent offers at Prem or Top14 clubs why would they want to take a pay cut to play for Wasps?
If Wasps have enough cash at their disposal they should be able to attract a decent squad, as others have said there's a lot of decent players scratching around for work.
Likewise some academy lads may be attracted back by regular game time.
But I can't see the likes of Launch, the Willis', Atkinson or Barbeary wanting to swap Quins, France, Tigers or Bath for Solihull.
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Agreed. At best I’d be absolutely delighted to see any of Morris, Cardall, Harris, Millar-Mills, Wolstenholme, Cruse, Kibirige, Spink. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a hybrid coaching role for someone like Simpson. But I don’t think we’ll see anyone who you would say was in our nailed on 23 previously.
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I understand and completely agree with Neils and the Colonel. But I can still dream! :) And I also agree with the other above posters. Alas.
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I understand and completely agree with Neils and the Colonel. But I can still dream! :) And I also agree with the other above posters. Alas.
Yep, it’s like that period between buying a lottery ticket and checking the draws. There’s no point buying one if you can’t have a few idle dreams.
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Just to make clear - it's the attitude and aims of players that matters when I say "it matters to me who wears the shirt."
I am under no delusions! about who we might be able to afford or who would want to play in the Championship - but having a "player-coach" figure like Jimmy (say) would be the sort of player I'd love to see in the shirt - alongside him and learning, perhaps some of the academy players who need regular gametime and for whom the Championship would be their next step. And with the bonus of knowing that it means to be a Wasp.
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I think we can pick up some of the promising academy players we had. I would not be surprised to see someone like Jimmy pop up. I think if it looked like we could get promotion, I would expect one or two of the old crew to come back in the season after, perhaps.
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I would expect one or two of the old crew to come back in the season after, perhaps.
If they have contracts elsewhere why would they?
The Wasps they knew has gone. The players they came through the academy with, that they celebrated wins with wont be there. The coaches who recruited them or brought them through the academy will no longer be there, the back room staff will be new... Wasps will be a brand new place so unless there's money enough to bring them in or they sense something special going on that they want to be a part of, why would they come back?
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I'm not convinced that the old players, especially the young ones and academy players, will want to come back. They had their whole world pulled from under them and it will have a been a traumatic experience. They are going to need a lot of convincing it won't happen again, as will a lot of people needed to fill non playing roles.
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I'm not convinced that the old players, especially the young ones and academy players, will want to come back. They had their whole world pulled from under them and it will have a been a traumatic experience. They are going to need a lot of convincing it won't happen again, as will a lot of people needed to fill non playing roles.
Totally agree, unless they don't have anything better or course
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To be honest, part of me would be quite upset if players like Tom Willis were playing for us next season.
I suspect we'll be paying less than minimal wages (compared to premiership), and players like Tom should be getting so much more than that.
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If Borthwick isn't rebuilding the England squad after the WC around Tom, Jack & Charlie something has gone seriously wrong.
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Well at least he will have seen Charlie at first hand.
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As Kevin Sinfield will have done.
Delighted to see him in the coaching team.
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As Kevin Sinfield will have done.
Delighted to see him in the coaching team.
[/quote
What for Wasps!]
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I would expect one or two of the old crew to come back in the season after, perhaps.
If they have contracts elsewhere why would they?
The Wasps they knew has gone. The players they came through the academy with, that they celebrated wins with wont be there. The coaches who recruited them or brought them through the academy will no longer be there, the back room staff will be new... Wasps will be a brand new place so unless there's money enough to bring them in or they sense something special going on that they want to be a part of, why would they come back?
If Wasps made it into the Prem, as I suggested, why wouldn't they when their contracts expired elsewhere.
We would be as good as any other Prem team, and if the person in charge was a Jimmy type figure, who knew them, why not?
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Should also point out that I think the 20 team approach will fail, and Wasps will fail with it if they don't return to the Prem in 2 to 3 years. It is delusional to think a non ground owning team with Wasp's recent history can survive in the championship over a 5 to 10 year period. That is the reality check needed, not 'we can't get to the prem', it is 'we won't exist out of it for very long.'
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If Borthwick isn't rebuilding the England squad after the WC around Tom, Jack & Charlie something has gone seriously wrong.
What in the heck.
Jack is a fringe squad player, Tom is way behind in pecking order because of insane depth and Charlie isn't ready yet.
Love those guys for Wasps, but ain't gonna build England around them. Just not happened that way sadly.
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So you don’t think they’ll have matured in to some of the best players n the country by 2027?
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So you don’t think they’ll have matured in to some of the best players n the country by 2027?
Jack will be 30, you won't "build the team" around a 30 year old. Atkinson might well be around the squad, but at 10 and back row there's others further up the pecking order (And to a certain degree, understandably). So to say "something's gone wrong if he's not building England around these players" is a bit hyperbolic.
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Not sure about building the team around them but they should all be in the squad. J Willis is a unique player who has that X factor. T Willis is vying with Dombrandt to be the best 8 England have for me. Atkinson is probably still behind Smith, Ford for now but he’s the sort of player you’d want to get involved.
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Not sure about building the team around them but they should all be in the squad. J Willis is a unique player who has that X factor. T Willis is vying with Dombrandt to be the best 8 England have for me. Atkinson is probably still behind Smith, Ford for now but he’s the sort of player you’d want to get involved.
This I can agree with.
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Plus 1
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Not sure about building the team around them but they should all be in the squad. J Willis is a unique player who has that X factor. T Willis is vying with Dombrandt to be the best 8 England have for me. Atkinson is probably still behind Smith, Ford for now but he’s the sort of player you’d want to get involved.
+2
I felt that our team was too often in recent years able to put out a more cohesive and plain better back row than England were. Shields, and Willis x 2 was rather more coherent a choice than a SR, a slow and past it 8 and an exhausted 7 who'd lost form, in 2021...
But I'd want Jack around the team - if he's 30 at the next RWC then that's about the mix of experience and fitness needed. Ditto Tom in many ways. The way he took on teams (I remember vs the EA's when OF got a red for decking Charlie "accidently") and showed form as an 8 in the Lol mode that isnt around so much these days.
Charlie may end up being the next Daly in many ways. Excellent at 10 and 15 and the man (like Daly) you'd want on the bench as he covers so much and...can come on and change a game - in his case from 10.
But I'm just hoping Borthwick can take the players with him....including those three for starters.
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Wasn't this a thread about who Wasps might attract in various roles and positions? Rather than yet another Engerland witterfest.
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Wasn't this a thread about who Wasps might attract in various roles and positions? Rather than yet another Engerland witterfest.
You must be new here! Every thread usually turns into England, RFU or Saracens hate.
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Wasn't this a thread about who Wasps might attract in various roles and positions? Rather than yet another Engerland witterfest.
"Witterfest" Ta. Just complementing our ex-players ok?
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Wasn't this a thread about who Wasps might attract in various roles and positions? Rather than yet another Engerland witterfest.
"Witterfest" Ta. Just complementing our ex-players ok?
Yes our EX players so we won't see them in a black and gold shirt again in Solihull.
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Wasn't this a thread about who Wasps might attract in various roles and positions? Rather than yet another Engerland witterfest.
You must be new here! Every thread usually turns into England, RFU or Saracens hate.
Yes new here so didn't realise it was mandatory for each thread to slide into other rugby domains.
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Searle released by Bath. Could be on the lookout. Interesting in the administrators report it says Holland wanted a quick purchase in order to get on with sorting contracts etc before other clubs came in. Of course it may have been a ruse to get the sale through. But read like good intentions. It’s going to be a fascinating rebuild.
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Wasn't this a thread about who Wasps might attract in various roles and positions? Rather than yet another Engerland witterfest.
You must be new here! Every thread usually turns into England, RFU or Saracens hate.
Yes new here so didn't realise it was mandatory for each thread to slide into other rugby domains.
Was just my poor attempt at sarcasm, just pointing out this happens a lot here.
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Another thing to consider is how angry most of the players sound when interviewed about how the club went under & how they were not told what was going on.
I know this would be a new club with new owners but you wonder how much suspicion they would have about Chris Holland given he was part of the previous management structure for a while?
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Another thing to consider is how angry most of the players sound when interviewed about how the club went under & how they were not told what was going on.
I know this would be a new club with new owners but you wonder how much suspicion they would have about Chris Holland given he was part of the previous management structure for a while?
Agree with that last sentence.
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Wasn't this a thread about who Wasps might attract in various roles and positions? Rather than yet another Engerland witterfest.
You must be new here! Every thread usually turns into England, RFU or Saracens hate.
Yes new here so didn't realise it was mandatory for each thread to slide into other rugby domains.
Was just my poor attempt at sarcasm, just pointing out this happens a lot here.
I've often thought there should be a particular font, which when used, indicates sarcasm.
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It's funny how with all the changes at every level of Wasps over the last month or two the one thing that hasn't changed is the lack of information coming from the "club" to the fan base.
The new powers that be might be happy they can assemble a squad before the players all go off to other places, but I think they massively underestimate how disheartened the vast majority of the fanbase is, and being given no information at all about what is going on is only going to make people lose interest.
How they expect fans who had, in the main, given up on ever seeing their club play again stay committed when the only news we ever see is yet more of our former players signing for other clubs I have no idea.
If anyone from the new club is actually reading this, please start treating the fans as an important resource, stop assuming they will always be there, start talking to them, or you may find they aren't there any more when you want them.
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It's funny how with all the changes at every level of Wasps over the last month or two the one thing that hasn't changed is the lack of information coming from the "club" to the fan base.
The new powers that be might be happy they can assemble a squad before the players all go off to other places, but I think they massively underestimate how disheartened the vast majority of the fanbase is, and being given no information at all about what is going on is only going to make people lose interest.
How they expect fans who had, in the main, given up on ever seeing their club play again stay committed when the only news we ever see is yet more of our former players signing for other clubs I have no idea.
If anyone from the new club is actually reading this, please start treating the fans as an important resource, stop assuming they will always be there, start talking to them, or you may find they aren't there any more when you want them.
+1
I'd also like to add, when something is said, please tell us the truth - even if the truth is difficult to listen to. The hardest part of this whole debacle is that all official club correspondence was saying that everything is/will be OK and there's nothing to worry about.
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I get the frustration but I'd give them a little while longer to get the ducks firmly in a row. They are probably still working on the RFU's requirements. Let's face it only the telegraph has done an article about Solihull so far.
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Indeed. Something positive with more substance would be very welcome, just before Xmas.
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It's funny how with all the changes at every level of Wasps over the last month or two the one thing that hasn't changed is the lack of information coming from the "club" to the fan base.
This might address that somewhat.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64050985
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Sounded an honest assessment of where they are - right at the beginning!
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Step 1. Permission to play from the RFU, subject to approval of plans. Tick.
Step 2. Funding to clear Rugby debts and fund plan B (amateur club). Must be done in the next few days.
Step 3. Sort a ground out short term. He said in weeks. I know that could be as loose as 100 weeks, but I have always take 'within weeks' to mean less than a month and more then two weeks. So, in early January 2023. If we do not hear about the ground by then, we will know things are not going well.
Step 4. Final decision on more generous funding, to allow a final choice between amateur, pro-am, or fully pro.
Step 5. RFU full approval.
Step 6. Recruit coaching staff to suit.
Step 7. Start recruiting a squad.
If it all went well, with Steps 2-4 & 6 happening simultaneously (which is a LOT of work for just a couple of guys), I can't see us at Step 7 till the end of February at best. Meaning Step 7 is going to be very hard work.
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It's funny how with all the changes at every level of Wasps over the last month or two the one thing that hasn't changed is the lack of information coming from the "club" to the fan base.
This might address that somewhat.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64050985
It's a reasonable statement, but my issue is unchanged. The idea that in the modern age a club with no squad and no home ground can talk to a BBC journalist and think that's enough if ridiculous.
Rugby's audience is as old, if not older than any other sport. If we want any sort of sustainability with a fan base we have to attract younger people. That means social media. And if we want to retain the fans Wasps had/have then the club needs to actually talk to them. Not release a statement through the BBC and assume we're all just sitting here waiting for the few crumbs that they allow to fall from the table.
It's not complicated, it just means frequent, open, honest communication.
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I think the problem with that VV is who does it? By my reckoning we have Pudsey and Andy Scott working on things. Personally I’d much rather they got on with securing investment/finding some coaches and a team/finding a ground than issuing social media updates. It will have to come but currently feels like a low priority. Main things in the interview for me 1) Investment still needed (isn’t it always) and 2) Solihull not as nailed on as thought.
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It's funny how with all the changes at every level of Wasps over the last month or two the one thing that hasn't changed is the lack of information coming from the "club" to the fan base.
This might address that somewhat.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64050985
It's a reasonable statement, but my issue is unchanged. The idea that in the modern age a club with no squad and no home ground can talk to a BBC journalist and think that's enough if ridiculous.
Rugby's audience is as old, if not older than any other sport. If we want any sort of sustainability with a fan base we have to attract younger people. That means social media. And if we want to retain the fans Wasps had/have then the club needs to actually talk to them. Not release a statement through the BBC and assume we're all just sitting here waiting for the few crumbs that they allow to fall from the table.
It's not complicated, it just means frequent, open, honest communication.
Although also frustrated I’m happy to accept that they’re really busy and that there’ll be confidentiality agreements, commercial sensitivities, NDAs and all sorts of other restrictions that make communication difficult. However, it would be nice to get some sort of statement, no matter how bland and boilerplate, acknowledging we exist and asking for patience.
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We have had nothing much from the last board, was hoping the new board don't follow their lead. But, that said, it is a job and we haven't started to employ yet.
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We have had nothing much from the last board, was hoping the new board don't follow their lead. But, that said, it is a job and we haven't started to employ yet.
And probably won't until we'll into next year despite our desire for any news.
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Very interesting piece in “I”. Snippets include board members include Inga Beale - former CEO of Lloyds of London, Simon Morris ex chief creative officer of Amazon and Chris Braithwaite who we knew about ex head of Apples real estate division. Scott stresses the need to be financially bullet proof. 1 institutional investor identified and progressing - seen as a way of bucking the sugar daddy trend. VV - interestingly Scott acknowledges that “We have a huge and passionate fan base that we need to mobilise and give good news to but we can’t create false hope”. A good read and as Scott says he believes we have a world class Board.
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Very interesting piece in “I”. Snippets include board members include Inga Beale - former CEO of Lloyds of London, Simon Morris ex chief creative officer of Amazon and Chris Braithwaite who we knew about ex head of Apples real estate division. Scott stresses the need to be financially bullet proof. 1 institutional investor identified and progressing - seen as a way of bucking the sugar daddy trend. VV - interestingly Scott acknowledges that “We have a huge and passionate fan base that we need to mobilise and give good news to but we can’t create false hope”. A good read and as Scott says he believes we have a world class Board.
Agree a good read and fairly positive. I wonder if the BBC article was a bastardisation of this longer one. If nobody posts the full thing I will do so later when computer is to hand.
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Link to article
https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/wasps-rfc-plans-bounce-back-oblivion-2042696 (https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/wasps-rfc-plans-bounce-back-oblivion-2042696)
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‘There is an absolute belief’: Inside Wasps RFC’s grand plans to bounce back from oblivion
The new owners of the six-time league champions reveal how they hope to build an entirely new playing staff, find a new home and keep finances ‘bullet-proof’ as they prepare for life in the Championship
he first question to answer in the story of the rescue of Wasps is… why? Once the Rugby Football Union decided the six-time league champions and twice European Cup winners would be thrown out of the Premiership this season as punishment for going into administration, with £95m of debt, why fight to keep the club alive as a professional entity?
The amateur Wasps FC continues to exist in west London, but the grand plan is to relaunch professional Wasps as a “phoenix” club in the Championship next season.
“The impetus has come from all of the stakeholders,” says Andy Scott, the chief executive of the new company that has bought Wasps’ brand and place in the league structure.
“Our fans have been incredibly supportive, and understanding, and ultimately the club belongs to nobody but them. It’s about creating a legacy for future fans, and I’m proud to call myself one, back from when I left the Army in the mid-1990s. It is exciting and I am honoured to be part of it.”
Key elements of the plan can be revealed or clarified here. The new “plc-style” board comprises Scott; Dame Inga Beale, former chief executive of Lloyd’s of London; Simon Morris, chief creative officer worldwide at Amazon; Chris Braithwaite, former head of Apple’s global real-estate division, plus a financial director.
Scott and Braithwaite represent the influential Wasps Legends Charitable Foundation, who include ex-players Kenny Logan, Peter Scrivener and Mark Rigby, while former captain and director Lawrence Dallaglio is said by Scott to be “not part of the core team but certainly aware of what we are doing”.
Four main steps in the rescue are: a stadium agreement to replace the CBS Arena in Coventry – understood to be a ground-share with the 5,500-capacity Solihull Moors FC, although Scott would only confirm “somewhere in the Midlands”; an obligation to pay rugby creditors; a squad of players, coaches and support staff to succeed those made redundant in October, when only the kitman Pudsey Bevan out of 168 employees was kept on; and an institutional investor, with one preferred party already identified.
The significance of this institutional investor is a move in English club rugby to wean itself off sugar daddies. This in turn is tied into a new rugby regulatory framework being worked on by the RFU and the Premiership for 2024 and beyond.
Christopher Holland, owner of the Wasps training ground in Warwickshire, put up £150,000 to buy the Wasps brand, intellectual property and “chattels” – equipment lying unused in the gym, for instance – and the Legends added working capital.
RFU funding for the Championship, to which Wasps would be relegated under the union’s regulations, is currently around £100,000 per club. So, initially at least, this will be a leaner operation, and international stars including Joe Launchbury, Jack Willis and Dan Robson won’t be returning, while talks are under way with potential coaches.
Geographically, it makes sense to stay close to the training ground. “We were in the Midlands before, and we still are,” says Scott, who has been CEO of 188Bet.
Some would like Wasps to return to their capital roots. “To see Wasps come back to London would be awesome,” Phil Vickery, an eminent former prop, said recently, but added: “Let’s focus on getting the club up and running” – echoing a mood iterated by Scott.
“Just to be able to pull on a black-and-gold jersey on and run out on to a park anywhere is success,” Scott says.
But is a return to the Premiership the goal? “We need to at least secure ourselves in the Championship at the end of the 2023-24 season,” says Scott.
“It’s a tough league. You’ve got the likes of Ealing, and Jersey, and our good friends over in Coventry, who are all doing incredibly well. It would be arrogant to think just by putting money into it, and creating a squad, we’d be promoted at the end of 23-24. It would be phenomenal if we find ourselves in that place. And depending on the institutional investor we land with, they may have more aggressive ambitions.
“We would love to have players who are known and loved by the fans. But we have to be sure we are bringing them back into an environment that is bullet-proof, financially. We cannot put anybody in the kind of situation we found ourselves in a few months ago. To do it once is unforgivable; to do it more than once would be morally obscene.”
Some are bound to be sceptical over Wasps disrupting the Premiership, writing off a pile of debt and then having their place taken by a club of the same name, albeit one rung down the league ladder.
Holland was a non-executive director of the old Wasps, but he has passed the RFU’s fit-and-proper process with “a glowing report”, according to Scott, partly because he had no shareholding in the previous business.
Wasps Holdings Limited was the holding company that owned a subsidiary Arena Coventry Ltd, (ACL) which in turn owned Arena Coventry 2006 Limited and IEC Experience Limited.
ACL, AC06, and IEC are all separate legal entities with their own assets and liabilities, so when they were sold as pre-pack administrations to Mike Ashley’s Frasers Group last month, the proceeds could not go towards paying Wasps creditors.
The major creditors comprise the holders of Wasps’ infamous retail bond at £35.2m, DCMS (Sport England distributed the Government’s Covid survival loans on their behalf) at £14m, HMRC at £7m of unpaid tax, and former owner Derek Richardson at £28m (through personal loans and another Wasps subsidiary, Canmango).
The bondholders and Richardson are “secured creditors”, but they will be paid nothing, unless the 11 remaining Premiership (PRL) shareholder clubs purchase Wasps’ P-share at £9.8m.
At the same time, PRL is contesting how much of the current central distributions Wasps are entitled to receive, and how much Wasps owe it.
Meanwhile, the “preferential creditors”, including former employees, and “secondary preferential creditors”, including HMRC, are set to receive nothing.
Those arrangements fall under the financial law of the land – however there are also sporting regulations, as administered by the RFU, which requires the new owners, Holland’s Halo22 company, to pay off “rugby creditors” estimated to be around £3.4m, and which includes the likes of Munster at £9,000, and former players Brad Shields and Malakai Fekitoa at £77,500 and £115,000 respectively.
“We are going through that process to clarify what it encompasses and we are trying to do the right thing,” says Holland, and the RFU have oversight of this.
The Wasps academy has, for now, been taken under the wing of the RFU. “Wasps women were a long way through being eased across from Wasps FC [the amateurs] to Wasps Holdings, as was, and clearly the administration event caused them huge amounts of trauma and upheaval,” says Scott.
“So they are central. The professional men, the women’s and the academy are all at the heart of what we see as the future of Wasps – alongside a tight integration with the FC, the Wasps Legends, all of those Wasps family members under a closer umbrella.
“There is an absolute belief we can build a viable, resilient, profitable sports business on the back of Wasps that will be here for generations to come.
“We think we’ve got a world-class board, we really want to set the bar for how this is done under the new rugby framework agreement.
“We’ve got a huge, passionate fanbase out there that we need to mobilise and give some good news to – but we’re very mindful we can’t create false hope.
“Once it’s all signed, with everything in place, that’s when I’ll crack open a bottle of champagne, but not before.”
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That reads well
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That reads well
Does it?
Maybe I'm just really pessimistic right now, but the fact that they are building "an entirely new playing staff", and that the price for the intellectual and physical property was £150k doesn't make me feel like we're actually going to see our club back at all. Sticking a bunch of people in second hand Wasps shirts doesn't make them the club I've followed for 20 something years. Time will tell I guess.
But this line worries me a little too: "Holland was a non-executive director of the old Wasps" He was Chief Operating Officer, which is very much an executive role. Is it a simple mistake on the part of the journo? Or is it revisionism at work?
Maybe I just need to step away and crack open the Christmas sherry...
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Maybe I just need to step away and crack open the Christmas sherry...
If I had any alcohol in my house, that would sound like an idea. Alcohol, sadly, is an infrequent thing in Chez Nelly.
Words are just excess gas and ink. We need to see some action.
As to seeing players from the start of this season come back for 23/24, that isn't going to happen. They have new contracts, and at best we will be offering salaries close to 25% - 33% of what they were previously on. No marquee slush fund either. Much as I would like to think they would come back under any circumstances, it isn't happening. Plus, we would not have the player sponsors we had before.
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I'm still on the fence with this.
When we moved from High Wycombe to Coventry, some people said that it wasn't Wasps any more.
But to me, it was the players that I followed, and Dai. I don't know one club owner / executive from another so I couldn't care less who owns/ runs the business.
Seeing Dai at the Ricoh, with the likes of Launchbury, Simmo, Wade, Varndell, Jones etc was more than enough for me to feel that it was still my club.
We're now in a situation where we'll have new owner, executives, coaches, players, ground.
Literally the only thing that might tie the new club to my club is shirt colours and a logo.
Honestly, that might be enough, but right now, I'm not sure.
An attractive, attacking style of rugby would certainly help, but I think that'll be very difficult to achieve when throwing an entire squad together at short notice
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I'm still on the fence with this.
When we moved from High Wycombe to Coventry, some people said that it wasn't Wasps any more.
But to me, it was the players that I followed, and Dai. I don't know one club owner / executive from another so I couldn't care less who owns/ runs the business.
Seeing Dai at the Ricoh, with the likes of Launchbury, Simmo, Wade, Varndell, Jones etc was more than enough for me to feel that it was still my club.
We're now in a situation where we'll have new owner, executives, coaches, players, ground.
Literally the only thing that might tie the new club to my club is shirt colours and a logo.
Honestly, that might be enough, but right now, I'm not sure.
An attractive, attacking style of rugby would certainly help, but I think that'll be very difficult to achieve when throwing an entire squad together at short notice
Hard to disagree.
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Look at it another way. Currently emerging as Board members or active parties in New Wasps are Braithwaite, Logan, Scott, Scrivener, Vickery - heavy on Old Wasps content. We have no idea which players and coaches may reappear. Maybe some will provide further links to Old Wasps. But I’m not on the fence at all. The choice is new Wasps or no Wasps so I’m choosing Wasps. Apart from anything else having skin back in the game may re-engage me with the wider sport. Being disenfranchised from it due to Wasps decline was a side effect that surprised me.
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Look at it another way. Currently emerging as Board members or active parties in New Wasps are Braithwaite, Logan, Scott, Scrivener, Vickery - heavy on Old Wasps content. We have no idea which players and coaches may reappear. Maybe some will provide further links to Old Wasps. But I’m not on the fence at all. The choice is new Wasps or no Wasps so I’m choosing Wasps. Apart from anything else having skin back in the game may re-engage me with the wider sport. Being disenfranchised from it due to Wasps decline was a side effect that surprised me.
+1
My life feels very empty. Worse than the summer blues, when there is no sport on.
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Shugs,
Absolutely spot-on.
Our "skin in the game" is the emotional attachment we have for Wasps.
Doesn't matter to me whether it's the pre-professional Wasps, Dallaglio's Wasps, Launch's Wasps or new Wasps. They are all the same team to me, Wasps.
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Absolutely so true all 3 of you.
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Agreed, When they re-emerge I'll be buying my season ticket!
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Agreed, When they re-emerge I'll be buying my season ticket!
+1
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+2......and they might even have 1 player sponsor as well! :)
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+2......and they might even have 1 player sponsor as well! :)
+3 (but not a player sponsor)