Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Heathen on October 27, 2023, 07:45:38 AM
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Wasps consider comeback in URC if return in England not viable
Lack of pathway back to Gallagher Premiership makes joining league with Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Italian and South African clubs an option for Kent-bound side
Owen Slot, Chief Sports Writer
Thursday October 26 2023, 7.00pm, The Times
Wasps would play domestic games against the likes of Edinburgh, whom they took on in Europe in May 2022, if they joined the URC
Wasps are considering joining the United Rugby Championship, rather than playing in the English leagues, on their return to professional rugby.
Wasps announced this week that they intend to re-emerge in Kent and are looking to build an indoor 24-28,000-seater stadium in Swanley. While they are still exploring the option of making their comeback in the English Championship ? which is effectively the second division ? negotiations have been continuing with the URC, which features teams from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy and South Africa. Their likely application will be tabled for discussion at the URC?s next board meeting in December.
The URC has not discouraged this conversation. As a rugby competition that covers three of the four stakeholders in British and Irish rugby, it would clearly be advantageous to plant a flag in the biggest market of them all.
There are two entry options into the URC, both of which are being considered. The first is expansion, though the league would naturally prefer to expand its numbers in twos. The second is replacing an existing franchise.
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It is no secret that the WRU sees the advantages of reducing its four professional franchises in Wales to three. The future of Ospreys has already been discussed this year in association with a merger with Cardiff and a potential tie-up with Ealing Trailfinders.
Wasps dropped a hint about their future ambitions in a statement nine days ago when they answered a question about what competition they would return to. The answer was: ?One that is fit for purpose and reflects the values that Wasps and others adhere to. We are pursuing all options in this regard.? ?All options? were the operative words there.
The problem for Wasps has been that there is no certainty of a commercially viable future in the English game. To return into the English system, the best chance of re-entry would be into the Championship, which is soon to be rebranded as Prem2.
However, the wheels are moving too slowly for Wasps, who want to be back playing next season or, if not, a year later. The real problem with the Championship is that it is unclear how long the Premiership will be ring-fenced for and therefore there is no guarantee that promotion is even a possibility.
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Without any clear pathway to the top, Wasps will find it far harder to attract investors. A move straight into the URC would solve that problem.
Chris Holland, the owner of Wasps, who are really at present just a name and a brand, is refusing to bring back the club unless it has a secure financial future, but the English game is unlikely to provide such stability. ?I?m not going to offer anyone a job until I know we?ve got enough money to pay them for two years,? he said.
Martin Anayi, the CEO of the URC who lives in Kent, confirmed that he had been instrumental in helping Wasps to find a prospective new home not just in his county, but also in the league that he runs.
?I?ve had conversations with Wasps predominantly with trying to help them find a home in Kent,? he said. ?Hopefully they?ll have a home in the Premiership. If not, the URC will always be open to further conversation.?
Wasps? future in the URC is at this point only an early-stage possibility. There are a number of approvals and issues that need to be sorted out.
Both Wasps and URC would ideally like to have the RFU?s endorsement but it would be an interesting legal situation if it were not forthcoming. The RFU could regard this in two ways: it could treat a URC franchise in Kent as an invasion and a market threat to English competition; alternatively, it could embrace it as a satisfactory way to bring a historic club back on to their feet and as an advertisement for the game southeast of London where there is no other professional rugby club.
Other important sign-offs would also be required. If an English player is playing for Wasps in an English county but in what is essentially a foreign competition, would he be eligible to play for England?
Recruiting a team in time for next season is one of the few parts of Wasps? complicated future that Holland is not concerned by. ?The team is not a problem,? he said. ?There are literally so many players out there and so many Wasps players who want to come back.?
Rugby union
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Well it was a rumour at the time the RFU said no.
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Interesting. And makes sense for both parties.
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Even if the RFU approved the move I can't see them giving Wasps any funding. How much do the Gallagher Prem teams get from RFU currently? Of course, if Wasps return to the Championship or lower then that funding is much much lower.
How is funding handled in the URC? Does the URC provide any funding themselves or is it all handled by the relevant national unions? IRFU funds Leinster and gives any leftover money to the other regions. The WRU just about funds their regions. I assume Edinburgh and Glasgow get the bulk of their funding from the SRFU.
No union funding makes it much harder to survive let alone compete.
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Indoor stadium kind of makes sense for all round use purposes. Racing's stadium cost somebody well over 399m euros which is staggering but it has a basement ( to be used for the Olympic swimming) and was on an existing site. Plus it holds 30/40k with a dead end (full length/height screen (bonkers).
Add that to a large chain hotel on a motorway junction (used so many of those), an out of town supermarket and big carparking for all.
Could all work and attract big backers if somebody wants us to play rugby!
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A couple of things.
1. as has been already mentioned, can't see the RFU funding a club that is not playing an the RFUs own competition. Why would they?
2. How would wasps be able to compete with Leinster for example who can basically field an Ireland side?
3. can't see a 24,000 seat stadium selling out to watch Wasps play Leinsters A team or a bunch of saffas no one has heard of. Not sure I would bother TBH. I want to see Wasps playing Quins, Tigers, etc.
4. Can't see many away fans travelling to Swanley from Treviso, or SA, or Edinburgh etc either. Neither could I see many Wasps fans wanting to travel to these places on a regular basis.
5. This strikes me as being bargaining chip to get a better deal from the RFU
6. As the article says, would English players playing for Wasps be classed as playing abroad? Could be a big problem for players with England ambitions. Unless that restriction is going in the bin anyway of course.
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4. Can't see many away fans travelling to Swanley from Treviso, or SA, or Edinburgh etc either. Neither could I see many Wasps fans wanting to travel to these places on a regular basis.
It never ceased to amaze me how many French and Irish fans made the trek to High Wycombe. Not exactly a major stop on the tourist trail.
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4. Can't see many away fans travelling to Swanley from Treviso, or SA, or Edinburgh etc either. Neither could I see many Wasps fans wanting to travel to these places on a regular basis.
It never ceased to amaze me how many French and Irish fans made the trek to High Wycombe. Not exactly a major stop on the tourist trail.
Plus the Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Italian and Saffers all living in London - a short fast train ride away.
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Plus the Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Italian and Saffers all living in London - a short fast train ride away.
But has that been seen in the attendance at Prem clubs playing the same teams in the ERC? I remember lots of Irish turning up but not so many of the others...
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Just trying to be a little positive rather than perpetually negative.
And yes for an Edinburgh match at the Ricoh quite a few local Scots turned up but that is the Midlands so probably doesn't count.
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FWIW if Wasp joined the URC, I would probably not bother to go & watch them. Its not a competition that holds any interest to me nor, IMO, is it one that most of the teams seem to care much about. Some of the line ups from last season were ridiculous.
If Wasps really want to play in a league that "is fit for purpose and reflects the values that Wasps and others adhere to" then they should join the Top 14. Now they would be games I would pay to watch!
Yes, I know that's even more of a non starter than joining the URC
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5. This strikes me as being bargaining chip to get a better deal from the RFU
Along the lines of my first thoughts. A message to the RFU: S*** or get off the pot.
Not sure I would bother TBH. I want to see Wasps playing Quins, Tigers, etc.
Of course I'd follow them, Once a Wasp, Always a Wasp, but I agree I'd much rather some of those those old rivalries that games against clubs I barely know. But its better than nowt.
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Sounds like a load of bluster to get the rfu to pull their finger out of prem 1 and 2 to me.
As above which union would fund the club? Certainly won't be the rfu. Going alone to play in a foreign league without union backing would be madness.
Not sure why fans would be drawn in to see a phoenix club playing in a competition your average English fan couldn't give a damn about either.
That's even assuming the rfu sign off on it - and what incentive do they have to do so? London scottish has a similar situation in 2021 where we applied to join the scottish super 6, but couldn't get that through the rfu red-tape
Total non starter imo
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Wasps are well thought of in Wales- matches vs Wasps would definitely attract more interest than vs any Scots, Irish, SA, or ITA team.
Can't see the Osprey Blues merger happening though. Scarlets won't go. Only dragons. Perhaps Trailfinders and Wasps as a pair could come in. With Wasps starting in Wircester it might be more attractive.
Wasps would not receive RFU funding, sure, but presumably would get cash from tge competition itself.
Prem 2 IMHO won't happen.
This would need blessings of the RFU. Don't see why they would object save precedent.
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All very well for games in Wales where wasps don't get the revenue - but what's the pull for average rugby punters in London and Kent to go see wasps vs the dragons in 7oaks?
Personally I couldn't tell you off the top of my head who even won the urc last year, and I'm not sure your average English rugby fan could either. Obviously it's subjective based on who you know, but I don't know any English fans who pay any attention to the competition whatsoever. Would be an odd decision to pull in legacy wasps fans as well - a phoenix club with no connection to the original club playing in a new competition that's not even an English one? Might as well just give up calling it wasps at all at that point and just create a new club
Rfu objected and stopped LS moving to the super 6 and we are a bottom of the table semi pro championship team without half the pull or appeal of wasps. I wouldn't count my chickens on rfu sanctioning a urc club personally
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FWIW if Wasp joined the URC, I would probably not bother to go & watch them. Its not a competition that holds any interest to me nor, IMO, is it one that most of the teams seem to care much about. Some of the line ups from last season were ridiculous.
If Wasps really want to play in a league that "is fit for purpose and reflects the values that Wasps and others adhere to" then they should join the Top 14. Now they would be games I would pay to watch!
Yes, I know that's even more of a non starter than joining the URC
Yes please, Allez, Allez, Allez. Kent is quite well connected to France!
Why does the RFU have to sanction it? If it isn't in their competition surely they have no control.
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Why does the RFU have to sanction it? If it isn't in their competition surely they have no control.
Because World Rugby divide the 'rights' to who controls the playing of Rugby Union, and has 'awarded' that control for any game played in England to the RFU. It is a monopoly that has gone unchallenged in Court (thus far).
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It would have to be sanctioned.
Problem is Wasps need a competition. There are only two mooted options- Prem 1/2 and URC.
Prem 2 will be hard to launch in an acceptable way- and by acceptable I mean fair.
I am not paying a penny to Wasps- or any other championship club- if they are there to make up numbers in a second tier given a nominal 250K playing budget or whatever with no hope of promotion or instant relegation if they do because the clubs above have 5m + bugets- not a penny- because such a competition is not a competition at all- it is a farce. For prem 2 to work clubs in prem 1- Bath, Tigers, Sarries et al need to accept that they WILL be relegated for finishing bottom- automatically. Now I cannot see those clubs agreeing to that in these trying times.
The main issue is those remaining clubs need to be funded at not much more than the ones below if it is genuinely going to be "prem 2"- I cannot see any of them agreeing to a cap drop save a couple. Sarries also need to stop cheating whatever cap is in place, but that is neither here nor there. The issue is the number of clubs in prem 2. two x 10 clubs- who on earth are the others who can afford big budgets? Where are the fans to support them? Even if the 3 dead clubs return, if Jersey mysteriously resurrect- and we add 2-3 ambitious others such as Pirates or Ealing, that is still short of 20. I would say you would be lucky to ever see two lots of 8- and that would mean two prem 1 clubs dropping. Ten in the top tier and six in the second won't work either.
Let us be clear- all the prem clubs will reflect what is in the best interests of prem clubs- which is to rebrand tier 2, hope to get more money from the rebrand, and use those prem clubs as feeder clubs. Nobody can convince me that the remaining prem clubs have any interest in anything other than themselves- that is how all clubs are. If that is all that is on offer, I would genuinely rather Wasps didn't exist as a pro outfit than simply be a feeder club those remaining prem clubs whilst being perpetually stuck in tier 2. If it is not, and there is going to be a genuine prem 2 well funded, then that is different- but I have to ask does anyone here think that will be offered? I don't believe the RFU has lots of funding for prem 2.
If it is a choice between farcical prem 2, and any other competition I will take any other competition even if that means the competition is routinely european, with only 3 accessible away games by car for home supporters local to Kent, and we only play English clubs in Europe. That is obviously not ideal. If we are offered a genuine prem 2, then that is clearly preferable, but ask yourself which of Bath, Tigers, Sarries, Saints, Quins, Sale, Newcastle, Chiefs, Glaws, and Bris is going to voluntarily sign up to a league where they could be automatically relegated?
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but ask yourself which of Bath, Tigers, Sarries, Saints, Quins, Sale, Newcastle, Chiefs, Glaws, and Bris is going to voluntarily sign up to a league where they could be automatically relegated?
This rather depends on the alternative.
For example if the RFU withheld funding until PRL agree to a properly funded two tier set up with promotion & relegation, prem teams may not have much of an option.
The RFU does actually have some bargaining power. What little money there is in the game comes from International rugby.
Also a prem 2 doesn't have to be the financial dessert the Championship is currently if its structured & funded correctly, so being relegated would not be as bad.
It will require vision & courage form the RFU, so probably very unlikely but that is what France appear to have done & their club owners had to accept it
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but ask yourself which of Bath, Tigers, Sarries, Saints, Quins, Sale, Newcastle, Chiefs, Glaws, and Bris is going to voluntarily sign up to a league where they could be automatically relegated?
This rather depends on the alternative.
For example if the RFU withheld funding until PRL agree to a properly funded two tier set up with promotion & relegation, prem teams may not have much of an option.
The RFU does actually have some bargaining power. What little money there is in the game comes from International rugby.
Also a prem 2 doesn't have to be the financial dessert the Championship is currently if its structured & funded correctly, so being relegated would not be as bad.
It will require vision & courage form the RFU, so probably very unlikely but that is what France appear to have done & their club owners had to accept it
But, where is this money coming from? They already sold 30% of their soul in a Faustian pact to the Devil. TV rights money, if anything, will be going down. Given the cost of living crisis, I can see pressure on ticket prices and gates, for some clubs. International games not filling HQ will also impact. All ways around, money is getting less, not more. The equation never did balance, but is even less balanced than it ever was. Only accountancy trickery over the valuation of HQ has kept the balls in the air, and with accountancy firms now receiving mighty fines for fiddling the books in this type of way, I foresee rocky shores ahead.
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I would like to think the RFU have the ability to get tough on the clubs and the nous to do what is right for the game. I suspect they are better a fudging issues, which is how we ended up as we are.
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I would like to think the RFU have the ability to get tough on the clubs and the nous to do what is right for the game.
I think they have the ability, just think they are missing the spine & b*ll*cks to actually do it!