Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Neils on April 17, 2023, 06:15:41 PM
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https://www.rugbypass.com/news/deja-vu-all-over-again-for-wasps/
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The circumstances of Paul Smith's departure from Wasps still have mystery attached to them.
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Does he actually say anything - just looks like a list of already known facts.
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I think that all he is saying comparing the ambitions of 2014 with the aims of the new entity.
Ultimately questioning the wisdom of letting history repeat itself.
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People shouldn?t take too much notice of Paul Smith.
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Paul Smith has simply wasted a lot of time and energy on regurgitating exactly what I and several others said last week.
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People shouldn't take too much notice of Paul Smith.
Don't care why he left Wasps or if he has an axe to grind, he's raising many of the concerns that people on here have raised about what was reported in the Guardian article.
We can't continue to just believe everything will be all right & pretend that anyone who doesn't agree is making it up. We did that before & Wasps went bust.
Its time for actual news, not silence & leaked empty plans
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It's pretty clear that the formerly amicable relationship between him and Wasps is no more, but it's pretty hard to disagree with the points he raises.
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It's pretty clear that the formerly amicable relationship between him and Wasps is no more, but it's pretty hard to disagree with the points he raises.
However, it is worth pointing out that apart from his own axe grinding most of the points he has raised came from here.
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However, it is worth pointing out that apart from his own axe grinding most of the points he has raised came from here.
Or anywhere/anyone else that has read the Guardian article. The suggestion Wasps can play Champ games at Henley for example raises a load of questions that pretty much anyone could think up if they we interested.
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As soon as I read the paragraph below it was obvious this was not an unbiased piece of journalism but more of a personal dig.
Depending on your viewpoint, by accepting that Wasps will occupy their fourth home venue since leaving Sudbury, English rugby?s governing body are displaying empathy for a struggling former giant or bending over backwards to support the old boys network.
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However, it is worth pointing out that apart from his own axe grinding most of the points he has raised came from here.
Or anywhere/anyone else that has read the Guardian article. The suggestion Wasps can play Champ games at Henley for example raises a load of questions that pretty much anyone could think up if they we interested.
Epic could barely cope with a visiting team transportation. It has barely enough (actually NOT enough) parking for the home team players. No, there is no way the training ground could or should ever be used for competitive games. There is zero parking nearby and this tiny town is a traffic nightmare at the best of times.
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He's right though. If this is the proposal accepted by RFU, then both Wasps and RFU are idiots for thinking it would work.
I don't know what the solution is, but based on recent history, it is not this.
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Agreed, Nelly.
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However, it is worth pointing out that apart from his own axe grinding most of the points he has raised came from here.
Or anywhere/anyone else that has read the Guardian article. The suggestion Wasps can play Champ games at Henley for example raises a load of questions that pretty much anyone could think up if they we interested.
Epic could barely cope with a visiting team transportation. It has barely enough (actually NOT enough) parking for the home team players. No, there is no way the training ground could or should ever be used for competitive games. There is zero parking nearby and this tiny town is a traffic nightmare at the best of times.
Here's the thing though - does playing a game of rugby on an outdoor pitch watched by some people (1,2, 25, 250....) require a planning 'change of use' application?
Whilst the errection of a stand and with that, an examination of parking and access arrangements, I suspect just playing a game of rugby with no changes to the infrastructure will not need a change of use.
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Are there any specific requirements about home grounds in the Championship?
There was quite a lot of land around the EPIC that could potentially be utilised, some was for sale at the opening, and the Academy house was not short of land. But I have a feeling that might have been owned by Derek himself, and not be part of the training centre. I'd be interested to find out who owns it now...
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The article was a bit nothing-y for those of us who frequent wasps message boards, but probably did raise valid points for those who don't and who may red articles on rugbypass.
Despite that, the real question is, would you take 5-10 years of Wasps followed by a possible complete failure, or would you rather there was no wasps at all?
That's ultimately the situation we were in previously.
Was an extra 8 years of a Wasps team existing worth it?
If it wasn't, then it isn't now either
If it was ok then, then there's an argument that it's worth the risk now...... After all, it's none of us taking the risk
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However, it is worth pointing out that apart from his own axe grinding most of the points he has raised came from here.
Or anywhere/anyone else that has read the Guardian article. The suggestion Wasps can play Champ games at Henley for example raises a load of questions that pretty much anyone could think up if they we interested.
Epic could barely cope with a visiting team transportation. It has barely enough (actually NOT enough) parking for the home team players. No, there is no way the training ground could or should ever be used for competitive games. There is zero parking nearby and this tiny town is a traffic nightmare at the best of times.
Here's the thing though - does playing a game of rugby on an outdoor pitch watched by some people (1,2, 25, 250....) require a planning 'change of use' application?
Whilst the erection of a stand and with that, an examination of parking and access arrangements, I suspect just playing a game of rugby with no changes to the infrastructure will not need a change of use.
It was one of the many avenues of objection the Henley Sports Centre Alliance put forward, that Wasps might choose to play fixtures there, and I think Wasps assured them it would not happen. However, no, it would not require a change of use application. But, there would have to be new infrastructure. The changing rooms, toilets etc. are totally inadequate; you need three (or more) sets of them at least (home, away and officials, plus trainers, water boys, etc.). The car park is tiny and totally inadequate. Would you need first aid facilities? Probably. With the current horrendous backlog of planning applications in Stratford District, you would not have a hope of getting it heard and debated in under 1-2 years.
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Sounds like yet another case of the shirking-from-home curse that?s blighting the public sector.
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I suspect just playing a game of rugby with no changes to the infrastructure will not need a change of use.
You may well be correct. But as Nelly outlines, there's lots of other things you would need to take into account, its not as simple as "just playing a game of rugby"
Now I am sure that temporary toilets & changing rooms etc could be hired & other issues ironed out but I really hope that playing at the EPIC is being viewed as a last resort, only to be used when all other options have been discounted & only when to not play, would impact Wasps inclusion in the Championship!
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Playing rugby at a rugby training ground may not constitute a change of use, but surely they will need a licence to sell alcohol, and presumably some sort of licence would be needed before they could admit paying punters in the kind of numbers that would be expected. And the addition of a club shop and food outlets could in themselves be defined as a change of use. I think the council will not be short of means to put a stop to it if they felt so inclined.
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Playing rugby at a rugby training ground may not constitute a change of use, but surely they will need a licence to sell alcohol, and presumably some sort of licence would be needed before they could admit paying punters in the kind of numbers that would be expected. And the addition of a club shop and food outlets could in themselves be defined as a change of use. I think the council will not be short of means to put a stop to it if they felt so inclined.
Just so, and I think they would, that is if the planning officers ever return to work off 'sick leave'.
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Playing rugby at a rugby training ground may not constitute a change of use, but surely they will need a licence to sell alcohol, and presumably some sort of licence would be needed before they could admit paying punters in the kind of numbers that would be expected. And the addition of a club shop and food outlets could in themselves be defined as a change of use. I think the council will not be short of means to put a stop to it if they felt so inclined.
The plan was always to host events there with food and drink so it may well be that a license for food/drink/music already exists.
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There are requirements for home/away/referee changing rooms and medical facilities however afaik temporary buildings do not need planning permission. Similarly with any 'temporary' food/refreshment outlets, the licencing requirement could be achieved by outsourcing the running of the bar to a local rugby club or other licensee.
From what other people said, not ideal to hold games there but feasible given my understanding of planning law.
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When at Wycombe they had to get planning permission for the beer tent every season.
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They have two changing rooms. Plus other facilities which could be utilised by officials and coaches.
They could play games there without supporters just to get up and running.
Use a bit of innovation and have a few"temporary" TV towers and stream the games to potential STHs and charge a fee to outsiders and opposition fans. Make it good quality with commentary. Make it very plain that it is a temporary situation to fulfil requirements.
Or use Solihull as the Telegraph leaked.
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Don't forget that Sixways is still available. New Wasps playing hard to get with its current unreliable owners?
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Don't forget that Sixways is still available. New Wasps playing hard to get with its current unreliable owners?
I am far from convinced that Atlas ARE the new owners. I doubt that they have paid in full yet.
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While I am sure it is possible to play matches at the EPIC, even though it will VERY far from ideal, that doesnt mean that the RFU will agree to let Wasps do it.
As far as I am aware a Phoenix club has to full fill various RFU criteria, one of which was to play at a suitable ground, either the ex-clubs existing ground or one not to far away which the RFU would need to approve.
I am sure New Wasps will be aware of that & will not try & play at any ground which doesnt have RFU approval.
All that said, it would be a pretty p1ss poor start to the New Wasps if they had to play there IMO. Although fully understand there may be no option.
In my mind this suggestion is a bargaining chip for a better deal somewhere else. I hope so anyway!
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I am starting to get rather concerned about all the negative vibes attached to professional rugby in England.
The 'new' Wasps leaders are desperately trying to attract investors in, what must be for them, a potentially grim scenario for the future of professional rugby.
The odds on Wasps returning must be diminishing, as each week goes by.
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I am starting to get rather concerned about all the negative vibes attached to professional rugby in England.
The 'new' Wasps leaders are desperately trying to attract investors in, what must be for them, a potentially grim scenario for the future of professional rugby.
The odds on Wasps returning must be diminishing, as each week goes by.
Correlation does not imply causation. Just because there is a paucity of information in the public sphere does not mean negative outcomes will occur, it is a possibility, but by no means a certainty. People are psychologically hard wired to follow negative thought processes that lead to undesirable outcomes via strong neuronal connections and processes in the brain.
Lack of information causes cognitive distortion and negative thought outcomes. (think when you finish an interview, you tend to think you have done poorly due to lack of information via feedback, that is until you speak to the interviewer, get the information and realise you have done well).
As an aside this is why people such as Boris Johnson, Suella Braverman and Donald Trump thrive because they give distorted information or sometimes none at all, but provide a good headline such as levelling up, or make America great again. Or by using emotive terms such as invasion when referring to immigrants or voter fraud when referring to the 2020 US election, as it gain?s traction as they deliberately manipulate vulnerable people by providing a lack of information to take advantage of our psychological hardwiring. It is a reason why high level education and teaching people critical analysis should be taught to all, as it prevents radicalisation and stops people deliberately trying to manipulate public opinion to their own ends despite the harm it may cause others.
No news does not necessarily mean bad news. We just have to wait.
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Perhaps Wasps need to "Level Up" and "Build Back Better". Or maybe we should be calling to "Make Wasps Great Again"... or maybe just "Take Back Control".
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You can wrap it up in whatever jargon you like, but the fact is that we have heard nothing from New Wasps since the website statement of the 16th December. That's over 4 months.....
I cannot believe if there was any good news then it would not have been shared. I don't count Pudseys tweets or "Official" non-denial of the Guardians story, these are not official channels to communicate with a supporter base!
Therefore we have to assume there is no good news, which, following logic can only be bad news.
I hope I am wrong & there's a ground deal, a coaching team & a bunch of players just waiting to be shared, but I just cannot help thinking that if there was any of that, it would have been broadcast by now.....
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I felt quite positive and hopeful until about a fortnight ago, but since then I've felt as if we have redally reached the end of the road and that all that can be be done for Wasps has been done, and there is no more future. I very much hope that I'm wrong by a country mile.
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I felt quite positive and hopeful until about a fortnight ago, but since then I've felt as if we have redally reached the end of the road and that all that can be be done for Wasps has been done, and there is no more future. I very much hope that I'm wrong by a country mile.
This is probably where I am as well.
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It feels worryingly like the end of a Wasps game. Really hope this is one of the games where we just about manage to cling on.