Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: reutmark33 on July 26, 2023, 11:45:26 AM
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As a lifelong Wasps supporter our demise is awful to witness, but surely we should not be willing the same to happen to other clubs? I have seen a number of posts ( quite a few from West Wales Wasp) mostly focussed on Saracens and Tigers and hoping they go under, but remember if a club folds some 200 jobs are lost between the players and the support staff. To wish this on any club I would say does not make us come over well. We have to accept it was a fair bit of mismanagement at the club that got us to where we are. We have always struggled to sell out our various grounds except for the big matches so we clearly have a lot of fair weather supporters who only attend for the huge contests. Saracens have the same issue whereas Tigers are lucky they regularly get 20,000 plus however well or badly they are doing. They have also won more silverware than any other English side, so maybe some of the comments on this forum wishing them to implode is out of jealousy? Saracens we all know cheated on a massive scale over many seasons of silverware winning, so I understand that breeds contempt ( yes Tigers were in breach too, but a far smaller amount and not over the same time period and they were playing rubbish during this time, so it hardly helped them!) but surely we should not be willing on these 2 or indeed any other clubs to fall apart financially? How does that help the game of rugby union we all love? I would be interested in your thoughts?
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Totally agree with you.
Many on here will not, so prepare for incoming!! ;D
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Your question borders on morality and ethics.
In the long term, do you think that the sugar daddy financing model of Saracens (and possibly any salary cap cheating) is viable? Good for the sport as a whole? Do you think it only delays the inevitable? Would Rugby Union die as a sport if the Premiership were to fold? Would the sport be better off with or without the RFU as it is currently run? Would the sport be better off with a different (better) model of running the Premiership (one that has been proposed but blocked by those sugar daddy clubs)?
Those are of course leading questions (at least my answers should be obvious in that I think the edifice needs to fall for the long term better health of the sport).
At the moment I view the 'business' of the PRL and RFU as much the same as a group of organized drug dealers. They too are keeping a lot of people in employment, but would you object if they went out of business? Likely you would not. You would also say something would likely appear to replace them, and bring back some of those lost jobs. I would say the same in relation to your question. The faster it falls apart, the faster we can be rid of the undesirables. We might get a new bunch who turn out in the long run to be as undesirable, but we can hope for better than that. The faster it breaks, the faster it can be fixed.
This is not so drastic as the government decisions of the 70s and 80s that saw tens of thousands in some whole communities lose their jobs, with no hope of future employment. Done in such a way as to see the total (eventual) demise of the coal, steel, defence, ship building and car industries, and all associated trades. If change is to come at the top (as I see nothing wrong particularly at grass roots level - it at least is heading in the right direction).
I might not be so gleefully promoting said demise of the PRL clubs. But I will be happy to see what emerges as potentially better.
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I don't think it's a simple "yes or no" answer to your question in all fairness.
Of the two clubs you've mentioned, you have Saracens who, through their operation, have devalued the competitiveness of the Premiership and have no remorse for their actions. Not to mention that I imagine most of their starting 23 won't have trouble finding employment elsewhere - so it's not like most of them will be impacted.
You then have Tigers, who I don't know much about their rugby operation, probably have one of the worst fanbases in rugby - very generalist comment to make but it's only Tigers fans who I've heard badly of in this forum since our demise. It's only Tigers fans who I've witnessed poor behaviour from at games (I'm excluding Quins fans because I'd expect a bit of "friendly" banter when you're playing your closest rivals!).
A lot of the criticism and ill-will towards these clubs is not aimed at support staff and academy/squad players who stand to lose a lot if clubs go under. These are people, just like you and I, who are trying to get by and earn a living. I'm sure sympathy is with those people - but that's as far as the good will stretches I'd imagine.
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I personally have no wish to see Tigers go to the wall despite a significant percentage of their supporters being selfish and antagonistic.
Saracens on the other hand, I would like nothing better than to see that club wiped off the face of the Earth for all time.
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Well of the replies so for there seems to not be sufficient acknowledgement that we as Wasps are where we are largely because of mismanagement by the senior club Directors and this is why we folded and not because of the RFU and or Premiership rugby ( neither body let me say I have a lot of time for) Also just because a small number of keyboard warriors from other clubs gloated on our downfall does not mean the vast majority of fans were very sympathetic to our collapse. Had say Tigers folded and we did not a few moronic Wasps supporters would have gloated! We should not dismiss the majority of decent supporters based on a few idiots! Also, the concept that we should want the whole club scene in England to fail so we can somehow return is I feel unkind and somewhat delusional as a nationwide collapse would not make our return certain given we seem to have no real assets or funds available to run a rugby operation at any level, let alone a professional set up.
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I fully expect at least one other club to go down the pan - possibly before the season even starts. Will the Prem implode? Maybe, though some clubs with sweet Fathers will carry on regardless. I also expect that the current business model of professional rugby in England is ultimately not fit for purpose. I don't wish ill on anybody as such.
As for mismanagement contributing to our down fall. I still believe Derek had the right idea but just about everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. Culminating in the loss of any cash flow in a planned multi income stream service industry all the direct result of a serious pandemic. Considering what went on before it is too easy to simply blame it on the management. Derek didn't plan to do his money.
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I have said it before. With the benefit of hindsight, it would have been better if Wasps had taken its medicine sooner. Back when it would have been seen as a disaster to end up in the championship...
Perhaps the same is true for PRL. I don't sit around hoping for clubs to fold, but I fully expect it to happen. When it does, I don't expect to be particularly upset, or for it to be the end of rugby.
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Rossm My own view is yes the pandemic had a huge impact and tipped us into oblivion BUT the figures show that we were struggling financially before then trading beyond our means and as one example very rarely filling the ground ( the Coventry stadium was always too big for our average gates I mean 30 plus thousand!!!!) How many matches were played to rows an rows of empty pale blue seating? Many.Also, the move to the Midlands for a London club never sat well with me and many Wasps supporters as by doing so we became truly nomadic and lost our geographic identity.
So, whilst the management certainly had some bad cards to deal with they are not blameless as I feel they overstretched us particularly via the bond scheme and did not make adequate allowances for s...t happening.
The fact we are almost in August and radio silence on any team for next season playing in any league anywhere just shows we do not have a pot to p..s in and how badly the finances have become. Sadly, I suspect our club will become a student case study in years to come on how a commercial operation over reaches and discards sound financial management along the way.
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Do I want other clubs to go to the wall? No. Will they? Almost certainly. Would I care if they did? Not a jot... except I would have a smile if it were Saracens.
As far as mismanagement goes - we could (should) have gone bust after the Falcons game at AP. We didn't and got a few more years of watching the team - sometime scintillating, always engaging. Had Covid not happened would we be OK? Probably. Could something else have derailed everything? Probably. Did the RFU / PRL assist in our demise? Certainly, by not enforcing the rules and punishing cheats properly, and then standing by when everything went south. The situation is too complex to say it was this or that, them or them. The truth is that it was a multitude of factors that contributed and had they not occurred at the same time we may have weathered the storm, maybe.
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I don't accept that people here don't acknowledge that mismanagement was a contributing factor in our demise but it does not tell the whole story.
I thought our business was diversifying quite nicely, as we had other branches other clubs didn't - the casino, the hotel (plus a second hotel that was touted). When Covid shuts all that down, its a recipe for disaster.
I understand London based fans weren't all pleased about the move to Coventry but, as no one wanted us in/around London I suppose we should've gone bankrupt sooner and that's the preferred option than moving to Coventry?
Back to the other clubs, it is difficult to have sympathy for clubs who were all to eager to see the book thrown at us for our troubles. There seemed to be no desire from anyone to offer a supporting hand. Instead, they threw us to the wolves with some to benefit from our best players next season (Joe L to Quins, Tom W to Saracens).
It's even more of a joke when the same clubs have now since asked for leniency when it comes to Covid payments (the leniency that wasn't afforded to us). It's clearly fine to throw a club under the bus as long as it's not you.
The point NWW was making, I believe, is relating to improving the management and product of professional rugby in England. Not necessarily whether Wasps benefit from this.
As a neutral, the quality of the Premiership is poor. Saracens have only missed 3 finals in the last 10+ seasons (2 of those were due to their so-called punishment) and have won the majority of them. Some one-off games have been good but what's the point of an exciting game when it doesn't mean anything?
The issue with keyboard warriors is that they're not all behind a keyboard. It's happened at games and other places away from the Internet.
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I think generally mismanagement is recognised. For me it was the right idea (diversification of income) that was derailed by initial debt and subsequent circumstance.
As far as the other clubs. Do I hope they fail - no. Do I think PRL can survive as it is - no. Do I think anyone in charge of a PRL club will change anything - no. So how does it change - it?s a catch 22. Elite rugby in England will wither and die with a repetitive, stale league of 10. Ideas for increasing interest range from futile to ridiculous. As far as I can see the grand plan to increase revenues is to reduce home games which is beyond ridiculous. I don?t want any club to fail but things must change. So some might have to.
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I do not have a way with words, as most other posters on here have; nor am I remotely as knowledgeable. I do agree with Ross, Jamestaylor and Shugs completely. Also I dislike Saracens intensely -- initially for their behaviour and absence of manners both on and off the field. I would not weep for them, tho' I would for our two shining ex-Wasps the T.W.s. Secondly I hold no brief for Saracens management for their cheating, and past continued cheating. Imho Saracens should have been disbanded as a Rugby Club when first found guilty. That is not jealously. We do not know the ins and outs concerning Wasps and maybe we will, but equally maybe we never will. I still think we got hit by a tsunami of misfortunes.
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It was more than just diversification, they also tried to build a multi sport brand with women's rugby and netball. Its a shame that Covid and some mismanagement didn't give that time to develop as it could have been a good foundation for building a larger fan base, we'll never know.
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More than happy to accept mismanagement on our part, but it is largely not relevant. I started the "fingers crossed for Irish" thread on DW,
I clearly don't want to see 8 of the 10 go under, although as I have said Wasps' best (but slim) chance of ever playing again at the top table would be for them to do so. Not the same as wishing it, of course, to be crystal clear.
Sarries cheated to multiple titles- if you play for them now you are playing for a cheating club who are a stain on the game. I defended them on their own site against many before they were caught, even when it was obvious they were cheating. Once caught I expected justice, not a cover up. If that comes across badly, so be it- rugby is better off without them, anyone working for them must be aware that they could be caught again and punished properly. Tigers- well they got a title when they should have been relegated as their actions were also deliberate. Who knows- maybe had they not cheated they would have been actually relegated. Either way they should not have had a title, but were allowed to keep it having won the final against the other cap cheating club. Now read that sentence back.
Their fan's behaviour is vile, but that is not reason alone to wish them ill.
Opinions may vary- but I would hold that any Wasps fan who is ok with Sarries not being punished properly is doing rugby a disservice by attempting to "move on". Rugby values are upheld by valuing legitimate titles. You have a pint after the game and on field cheating is forgiven. If you then find out the ref was bribed, you don't do that, you call it out, if you do ignore it you are part of the problem.
I would also offer a piece or two of advice to the OP- refrain from (a) putting user handles in titles- we just don't do that here- and (b) referring to fans of any club as fair weather- it is not a good look, unintentionally or otherwise it makes it sound like the ludicrous "not real fans" debates you saw on DW a while back from the soccer fans. Fans are fans- whether old or new, or whatever.
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Total agreement WWW. With you all the way.
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Damn right WWW.
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First post on site to stir matters.
Agree with WWW generally.
Just remember of the remaining 10 - one cheated the cap for "at least two years" and then again "for at least three years" , another cheated for five years by keeping their overspend marginally below the high penalty level (to my mind sneakily deliberate) and at least two others in the first batch of cheating reported. On those two we know it wasn't Wasps because the Wasps owner was only one of two owners who wanted it made public.
Where Wasps to blame for their own demise - partly yes.
Do I want other clubs to go out of existence - yes many.
Do I want to support any of them - not a chance.
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Slightly o/t but just seen elsewhere that Bath have just announced their playing squad for next season. c60 names, a load of which I don't recognise but obviously includes their new acquisition - Finn Russell.
Assuming therefore they are including all sorts of academy players as opposed to just the "senior academy", but it does make me wonder about Craig's salary bill.
I thought (but correct me) at one stage we were down to 42/3 senior players?
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WWW I am no Tigers lover but the squad they won the title with had been there for some time and the time period of their transgression they were rubbish so did not win any silverware based on their financial creative accounting, whereas Saracens won several titles domestic and European during the period of their cheating, hence why they were relegated and Tigers were not for far lesser offences.
You also dismiss the Tigers fans as awful in their behaviour, but I say again all clubs including our own Wasps have idiot fans so to write off a whole fan base based on a few experiences you have had either online and/or face to face is surely not representative of the 20,000 plus fans they get every home game?
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Neils your last post sums up from you and many other posters a massive resentment to other clubs and whilst this may be a cathartic way of handling the loss of our great club as a Wasps supporter I take a different line. Namely, yes the other clubs and the RFU could have helped us more etc etc BUT the club should never have allowed the club to get to the stage where we were a financial basket case. Some hide behind COVID but that hit all sports clubs and I feel we just over leveraged us and were blind to the rainy day scenario and should have been more cautious, particularly given how close we came to folding in Wycombe.
The radio silence since we went bust is frustrating as I am sure we all want answers to how we descended from a proud historic club to not having a pot to p...s in! Maybe disproportionately blaming others for our demise, rather than looking within fills that void?
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WWW you pulled me up for referring to fans of any club as fair weather- saying it is not a good look, unintentionally or otherwise as it makes it sound like the ludicrous "not real fans" debates you saw on DW a while back from the soccer fans. Fans are fans- whether old or new, or whatever.
Wasps have always struggled to get consistent big home gates and rarely sold out at Loftus Road, Wycombe or Coventry.
Yet a lot of Wasps fans turn out for a Twickenham final or a Euro semi final etc.
As you seem anti Tigers at least they get home gated over 20,000 so we did struggle to convert the occasional fans into regulars.It is not a problem just Wasps had as Saracens are in the same boat and Sale to name just 2.
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Some hide behind COVID but that hit all sports clubs
Yes indeed. However not all clubs had several expensive facilities which because of Covid generated little if any of the expected and no doubt budgeted income whilst expenditure remained high.
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A significant numbr of those who used to attend Wasps HQ matches were fans from the SE catchment, who never made it to Coventry.
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I have been verbally abused at Execeter RFC, Bath RFC, Tigers RFC and Dragons RFC. I never felt nervous tho'. The only time I did feel worried and very uncomfortable was the last visit of Tigers to Coventry when they behaved like a football mob; even the stewards (male and female) were verbally and racially abused.
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Grendel?
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Grendel?
I was wondering the same.
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I thought that too - about halfway through page 1.
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Not really going to discuss other club's fans in detail. Any evidence will be anecdotal. Their club's fans have been the worst regarding our demise in my experience, only my experience, but you can't interview all of them and as I have said, fan behaviour does not come into it. Cheating does.
Fact is, and it is is fact,Tigers cheated systematically in years they were damn close to being relegated. That means they cheated, and any points deduction would have seen them relegated. End of debate for me. It matters not that they failed to win stuff. Anything could have happened from there, England players could have left, etc. All speculation of course, but had they been relegated the season before they would obviously not have been in the final. Their punishment to me is only proportional when compared to Sarries, who have for my money not been properly punished.
On gates, our gates at Coventry averaged very well, all clubs give away free tix, even when ours, which were big at first, were taken into account, our gates were high compared to the average in the league. Tigers are the highest weekly attendance once distorting big games are removed. At Coventry we weren't actually far behind in average attendance, although the ground was cavernous.
We have a diaspora, alongside Irish, one reason why we were on TV so much. Still won't be calling anyone fair weather myself, it sounds like the sort of comments made by fans of small clubs like Coventry when playing big prem clubs. Thus I avoid the term personally.
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Sorry you suffered that abuse Wonky W but I say again you cannot dismiss one clubs fans as dross due to a few idiots as all clubs have them.
Clearly WWW hates Leicester and I am no fan of theirs but they regularly get many more supporters than we ever did attending their matches and they have won a lot more silverware than us so they must be doing something right? I still feel our demise was avoidable with better financial controls and us the supporters plus the players and backroom staff are the real losers in our going belly up! Not sure who Grendel is, being new to this forum?
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Some may remember a keyboard warrior who was called the 'Knut from Kent' on a now defunct Wasps fans site!
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Sorry you suffered that abuse Wonky W but I say again you cannot dismiss one clubs fans as dross due to a few idiots as all clubs have them.
Clearly WWW hates Leicester and I am no fan of theirs but they regularly get many more supporters than we ever did attending their matches and they have won a lot more silverware than us so they must be doing something right? I still feel our demise was avoidable with better financial controls and us the supporters plus the players and backroom staff are the real losers in our going belly up! Not sure who Grendel is, being new to this forum?
I think you will find that is called cheating. As Sarries prove, if you cheat enough you will win stuff. The same applies for Tigers (as explained above).
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Some may remember a keyboard warrior who was called the 'Knut from Kent' on a now defunct Wasps fans site!
I think there would be far more 'I told you so' and 'we should have brought a ground in London' going on if it is who I am thinking of.
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Wasps went under because the only person with enough money to get us temporarily out of the hole we were in did not have enough money (to pour down a black hole) to acquire a ground and provide a finance stream big enough to sustain the club. Instead, the purchase was heavily leveraged and that gamble did not pay off. The additional income streams did not arrive quickly enough. Had we been a club that had land and had organically grown from scratch, we probably would have gotten there with a more modest investment. In effect, as Exeter have done.
But, we started out where we were at AP. In a deep hole with no prospect of getting out and no prospect of being financially stable. The gamble was highly unlikely to succeed. Was there financial mismanagement that made it worse? Who knows, maybe. Was buying the Ricoh the right decision? I highly doubt it. It was worth then probably less than Mike Ashley reportedly paid for it last year (not a lot). It was certainly not worth a quarter of what we paid. Not to Wasps. Remember, something is not worth what it cost, but only what a buyer will pay. When we went bust, CCFC still couldn't afford to buy it even at that knock down price (despite all that their fans might say, CCFC never made a firm or realistic bid).
So, way back then, when Wasps bought the Ricoh, CCFC did want to buy it, but for far less than Wasps offered. At that time CCFC might have had the money, and it would have been a fair price. A massive loss to the Council, but a ton of money that went in to building it came from EU grants and Tesco. It should never have been built though. CCFC were gifted a stadium when they lost Highfield Road through totally inept financial management of the then owners (that was when I stopped supporting the Sky Blues). The council should never have stepped in to 'help' them.
Wasps should have gone bust a decade ago, and reformed. Where would they be now? A Championship club? What did we win in the interim? Was it worth it to all those who lost a ton of money? I can't help but think the answer to that is not.
You might call it hindsight, but it isn't. It was never going to work.
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Sorry you suffered that abuse Wonky W but I say again you cannot dismiss one clubs fans as dross due to a few idiots as all clubs have them.
Clearly WWW hates Leicester and I am no fan of theirs but they regularly get many more supporters than we ever did attending their matches and they have won a lot more silverware than us so they must be doing something right? I still feel our demise was avoidable with better financial controls and us the supporters plus the players and backroom staff are the real losers in our going belly up! Not sure who Grendel is, being new to this forum?
No, I don't hate Tigers.
I hate the fact they got away with fiscal doping and should have been relegated and instead were allowed to compete penalty free and win a title when they should have been in the championship. And I want any unpunished team punished.
Not entirely sure Tigers have won a lot more silverware than us. More, not by much though. We have about 5 pro era titles and two euro titles they have about 8 and 2, not including the last one for obvious reasons already stated. Both pretty impressive records really. Certainly no jealousy involved, they are just part of the unpublished fiscal doping problem.
You seem curiously interested in supporter numbers and trophies when we are talking about unpunished cheats still being involved in rugby whilst three non cheating clubs are not, thus increasing the proportion of unpunished cheats in the league.
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I never had a problem with free tickets. Makes the crowd in a large stadium look better and anybody who goes to a rugby game would probably like a drink or two, whether their tix were free or not. I would have carried on with them.
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I suspect Reutmark may be Grendel or similar.
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I suspect Reutmark may be Grendel or similar.
Certainly has that kind of stink about it.
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I suspect Reutmark may be Grendel or similar.
Maybe, but all points have been answered, so we can let the thread sink unless there is new material.
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Reutmark33 this is a pretty tight knit group of people. As fans we've been through a lot, and despite not always agreeing with each other we all try and treat each other with respect.
We certainly don't come here to specifically target individual posters and try to start arguments.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I'm feeling generous, but that's unlikely to last.
If you want to stay, be nice, be respectful, be kind.
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I sincerely apologise as I am a Wasps supporter and it was never my intention to cause any offence and rest assured that I take due note of your words Vespula Vulgaris. I am just, like all of us, so saddened and frustrated by what has happened to our club.