Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: coddy on January 24, 2022, 03:43:45 PM
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With more rumours of Gopps leaving for Tigers coming over the weekend, Mills (very) rarely fit enough to lace up his boots and MLB clearly not one of the two quality players we and all top clubs endeavour to have in each position Inside Centre must be a key area for recruitment.
Looks like Fekitoa is off too, I like the look of Spink and feel he will very shortly be good enough to deputise Odogwu so not sure if we need to replace Malakai with a top drawer 13 as long as we have a Academy lad ready to step up. If we don't I think we should recruit a journeyman Centre for Spink to compete with.
Thoughts?
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My thoughts are that if Fekitoa goes I’m pretty happy with Odogwu and Spink as our first up two for 13. If Mills stays I’d say we then need another “oven ready” 12. If he goes we need 2. You’d then have cover at either 12 or 13 from Le Bourgeois and I think (hope) we’ll see a bit more of Hartley next year as well. Obviously the difficult bit in that is finding 12’s.
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As I just posted in a different thread, BB discussed this in a livestream a few minutes ago.
It rather depends who is off.
Mills (BB doesn't know)
Fekitoa (BB doesn't know, but suspects he will be off)
Gopperth (almost certainly off to Tigers)
Le Bourgeois (not discussed, but I do wonder)
Balanced by Spink, and obviously Odogwu.
BB did say Wasps were disappointed not to get Esterhuizen, so they may be after another like him (is there one like him in existence?).
But, that was the sum of what BB thinks Wasps are looking for.
I wondered about Kibirige, Watson (M) and Miller.
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It's quite tough unearthing new talent, but I think Quins have done quite a good job over the past few seasons.
Lynagh looking good.
Luke Northmore too.
Tyrone Green and Estherhuizen have been great additions.
And also impressed with Nick David on his first appearance for Quins on Friday night. He was previously at Worcester and looks quick and nimble as a wing or fullback.
There is talent out there, it's just finding the right players to add to the mix.
I would love to see some clever acquisitions. I think Dan Frost has been an unbelievable find and I'm hoping we can be as effective in unearthing some backs.
I do think we have a lot of young and inexperienced players in the backs....and if Jimmy goes, we need to recruit a wise, calm soul to provide leadership under pressure.
Effectively another Jimmy, just 4-5 years younger.
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As I just posted in a different thread, BB discussed this in a livestream a few minutes ago.
It rather depends who is off.
Mills (BB doesn't know)
Fekitoa (BB doesn't know, but suspects he will be off)
Gopperth (almost certainly off to Tigers)
Le Bourgeois (not discussed, but I do wonder)
Balanced by Spink, and obviously Odogwu.
BB did say Wasps were disappointed not to get Esterhuizen, so they may be after another like him (is there one like him in existence?).
But, that was the sum of what BB thinks Wasps are looking for.
I wondered about Kibirige, Watson (M) and Miller.
Just seen your post. Exactly, we need an Esterhuizen style player and personality.
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What I do find odd is the relative quiet in the Prem as a whole on movement, especially considering that the talk to player window was moved much earlier in the season.
To me, it seems like there will be a few players without a contract next year, who would have otherwise announced moves to other clubs who had some wriggle room in their budgets. By that I mean that the flurry of moves announcements we are used to seeing was being driven by players and their new clubs. Existing clubs have nothing to gain by announcing that xxx is leaving with nowhere to go to. Hence the relative silence.
The Championship has only a few weeks to go, and am I right there is no playoff this year? I would guess that a few Championship players will sign with Premiership clubs, but may want to announce this quite late into their season, maybe? Mid March then.
SH players are likely to be stitching up their deals with SH clubs pretty soon, so I am guessing we will not hear of SH signings until March/April.
My guess is we may have one or two Championship players lined up, and two or three SH players, as our squad is mainly EQP, so we have that room that some other teams do not.
Let the long wait continue ...
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Wasn't Piers O'Connor linked with a return to Wasps?
I suspect there are a few Esterhuizen type players out there in the southern hemisphere attracted by premiership salaries.
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Bath were rumoured to be going for Damian De Allende, and Ojomoh was also rumoured to being courted by others. I'd not mind Ojomoh.
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We've liked to play with two distributors, so if that is correct and we want to carry on having that as our preference then we need to decide where the second one plays. Options are usually 12 or 15. As Crossdale is prob our 15 going forwards, he'd probably need to develop for that to work. So if Paulo is fit and Spink provides cover we're probably in need of a distributor 12, Mills if fit and perhaps someone like Pier O' Connor who does both the distribution and some muscle too.
I do think that we need another winger/15. One of the many reasons Wade was so valuable was that he tied up lots of players and that meant gaps elsewhere, land he still scored loads.
We have had that distributor at 13 when Daly was owning the shirt - seems less common in terms of available players.
So if they are fit....Mills and Odogwu as first choice works for me..(bit if...) and then it's choice linked to how we prefer to play. Of course if Ollie Lawrence fancies a new start to coincide with "post Eddie" then that would be nice.
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We've liked to play with two distributors, so if that is correct and we want to carry on having that as our preference then we need to decide where the second one plays. Options are usually 12 or 15. As Crossdale is prob our 15 going forwards, he'd probably need to develop for that to work. So if Paulo is fit and Spink provides cover we're probably in need of a distributor 12, Mills if fit and perhaps someone like Pier O' Connor who does both the distribution and some muscle too.
I do think that we need another winger/15. One of the many reasons Wade was so valuable was that he tied up lots of players and that meant gaps elsewhere, land he still scored loads.
We have had that distributor at 13 when Daly was owning the shirt - seems less common in terms of available players.
So if they are fit....Mills and Odogwu as first choice works for me..(bit if...) and then it's choice linked to how we prefer to play. Of course if Ollie Lawrence fancies a new start to coincide with "post Eddie" then that would be nice.
Unless Mills is not here next year.
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Bath were rumoured to be going for Damian De Allende, and Ojomoh was also rumoured to being courted by others. I'd not mind Ojomoh.
De Allende I expect to go to Japan, Ojomoh fits our style of player though. Young and ignored by Bath, so potentially a signing in the future.
And actually that's something I'd emphasize here, I'd love an experienced centre, but based on recruitment don't be surprised if we sign a young up and comer like Crossdale or Frost. Here's hoping recruitment work their magic again...
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Unless Mills is not here next year.
Well - I felt I had to make some assumptions! If he's not then I think we're probably in need
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Unless Mills is not here next year.
Well - I felt I had to make some assumptions! If he's not then I think we're probably in need
I think it is quite an assumption. He signed a 2 year contract, which expires this season. Re-signings and extensions were announced months ago by Wasps, there would be no reason to delay his for so long after the others. The same applies to others whose contract expires. If Wasps wanted a player to stay, an offer will have been made at the start of the season (ish). Those who were not wanted past this season were not offered a contract at that time. Those who were offered a contract (I suspect Jimmy as an example here), but did not want to accept it (maybe too little money, or too short), will have been looking around. As soon as Wasps had replacements lined up, their offers would have been withdrawn. That's pretty much how it works. There are a few who we can guess pretty accurately have expiring contracts who have not been announced as re-signing.
Wasps are unlikely to say anything to give those leaving the greatest chance to get signed elsewhere, but by now other clubs know the reality of that silence, so offers will be sparse and with little money, such as happened with Haskell.
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It depends though. He has hardly played, but was / is a class 12. It would be reasonable to delay any decision on contracts until he has had a chance to have a run of games to see a, if he still has it, and b, if he can avoid more injuries. I could see him getting a new contract if he strings some good games together by the end of the year, especially as he fits the bill of what we are looking for at 12.
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It depends though. He has hardly played, but was / is a class 12. It would be reasonable to delay any decision on contracts until he has had a chance to have a run of games to see a, if he still has it, and b, if he can avoid more injuries. I could see him getting a new contract if he strings some good games together by the end of the year, especially as he fits the bill of what we are looking for at 12.
I agree. He has had very bad luck with injuries. I certainly think he should be offered a contract. He is a very talented player and shouldn't be discarded simply because of ill fortune.
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It depends though. He has hardly played, but was / is a class 12. It would be reasonable to delay any decision on contracts until he has had a chance to have a run of games to see a, if he still has it, and b, if he can avoid more injuries. I could see him getting a new contract if he strings some good games together by the end of the year, especially as he fits the bill of what we are looking for at 12.
Nice though that is as a sentiment, Wasps is a business. They need a quality 12 in place, and it looks like that will not be Jimmy. Mills could be that, if fit. But, if you don't secure a 12 you KNOW will be fit, with Jimmy gone, that will be your season gone as well. A whole season with Booj as the only option is not viable (much as he is a great #2 or #3 choice). The risk is too great. At some point, you have to make a decision and sign someone else. I suspect we have or will be shortly. The Fazlet replacement debate shows just how poor England is at producing good 12s. Hence, I think a SH player will be signed.
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It depends though. He has hardly played, but was / is a class 12. It would be reasonable to delay any decision on contracts until he has had a chance to have a run of games to see a, if he still has it, and b, if he can avoid more injuries. I could see him getting a new contract if he strings some good games together by the end of the year, especially as he fits the bill of what we are looking for at 12.
Nice though that is as a sentiment, Wasps is a business. They need a quality 12 in place, and it looks like that will not be Jimmy. Mills could be that, if fit. But, if you don't secure a 12 you KNOW will be fit, with Jimmy gone, that will be your season gone as well. A whole season with Booj as the only option is not viable (much as he is a great #2 or #3 choice). The risk is too great. At some point, you have to make a decision and sign someone else. I suspect we have or will be shortly. The Fazlet replacement debate shows just how poor England is at producing good 12s. Hence, I think a SH player will be signed.
Given his injury history (and our general injury history), I doubt even with a good run of games, Wasps will put all their eggs in one basket. I would imagine it would be Mills plus someone who could also be a number 1 (2 quality players for the 12 shirt), with Booj as #3 rather than Mills + Booj alone. That would probably be a quite low risk approach, as I doubt Mills would command a high fee at the moment. I have no idea, just another thought as to how it could play out.
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Unless Mills is not here next year.
Well - I felt I had to make some assumptions! If he's not then I think we're probably in need
I think it is quite an assumption. He signed a 2 year contract, which expires this season. Re-signings and extensions were announced months ago by Wasps, there would be no reason to delay his for so long after the others. The same applies to others whose contract expires. If Wasps wanted a player to stay, an offer will have been made at the start of the season (ish). Those who were not wanted past this season were not offered a contract at that time. Those who were offered a contract (I suspect Jimmy as an example here), but did not want to accept it (maybe too little money, or too short), will have been looking around. As soon as Wasps had replacements lined up, their offers would have been withdrawn. That's pretty much how it works. There are a few who we can guess pretty accurately have expiring contracts who have not been announced as re-signing.
Wasps are unlikely to say anything to give those leaving the greatest chance to get signed elsewhere, but by now other clubs know the reality of that silence, so offers will be sparse and with little money, such as happened with Haskell.
Hence why I said above "So if Paulo is fit and Spink provides cover we're probably in need of a distributor 12, Mills if fit and perhaps someone like Pier O' Connor who does both the distribution and some muscle too."
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I agree with you about two quality 12’s as recent history doesn’t suggest Mills can get a prolonged period of game time. I really would like to see mills as he does have the potential to be very good.
As regards to 3rd choice I’m sorry but I’d rather concentrate on a young academy player who has good prospects, which we already have in Ollie (can’t remember surname) we have got to be careful that we don’t push academy players and lose them
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It's not like Mills has had lots of injuries a la Fekitoa, he's just had one really bad one that has kept him out, a complete freak event really - even by our team's standards!
I really think a 12 is a priority for us. That's why it's definitely worth keeping Mills on, if nothing more than the fact that quality 12s are currently thin on the ground. It seems quality backs are harder to find in the Championship than forwards (exceptions aside), so we are either looking for an established Prem player or someone from overseas. Domestically, Ojomoh probably won't leave Bath given the new coach/promise of better times ahead etc coming up, although if he is going to sit behind Redpath he might be interested. O'Conor would be interesting as he isn't playing anywhere near as regularly for Bris as he was last year and is versatile - Premiership quality at 12 and 13 is pretty rare. Hartley isn't going to be ready for a while yet, no matter how impressive he looked in the Prem Cup.
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It's not like Mills has had lots of injuries a la Fekitoa, he's just had one really bad one that has kept him out, a complete freak event really - even by our team's standards!
I think you'll find his entire career has been mostly injury, hence his lack of England caps.
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But, if you don't secure a 12 you KNOW will be fit...
If there are players out there in any position that are entirely immune to injury then we should sign them all!
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Hymenoptera: Not sure how you justify Mills having a whole series of injuries. Evidence? He came from Worcester with a good record and we, including us on this site, were glad to have him.
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Hymenoptera: Not sure how you justify Mills having a whole series of injuries. Evidence? He came from Worcester with a good record and we, including us on this site, were glad to have him.
Tbf Worcester fans warned us about his injury record.
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Thinking of options, others have mentioned Sale and the James brothers. What about Sam Hill? Seems to have disappeared off completely and may want a new lease of life. Offers a physical edge, and was once on the England radar. Out of contract this season too
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Hymenoptera: Not sure how you justify Mills having a whole series of injuries. Evidence? He came from Worcester with a good record and we, including us on this site, were glad to have him.
Its not a case of being 'glad' or not. A not injured Ryan Mills in his prime was one of the best 12's in England...but so what.
I'm not here to plug your knowledge gap, go do your own homework.
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Thinking of options, others have mentioned Sale and the James brothers. What about Sam Hill? Seems to have disappeared off completely and may want a new lease of life. Offers a physical edge, and was once on the England radar. Out of contract this season too
Sam Hill? Good shout.
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I like the James brothers. Also De Allende is heavily rumoured to be off to Bath. Wonder if we could tempt Redpath. I also quite like Steff Hughes who was rumoured to be available. As a left field option and possibly a bit early if there are no 12’s how about recruiting a 10 and looking at Atkinson at 12.
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Sam Hill is a no from me but agree with either James bros. Oli Morris at Worc too.
Anyone from the Pacific Isles.
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Interesting that we were after Esterhuizen. Having a player like him would massively improve our squad balance. We’ve missed Siale Piutau since he left, and so have Bristol. It’s all very well having creative 10/12s and beating the lesser teams with champagne rugby, but sometimes you need a tractor at 12 to get the game turned round when the going gets tough. Spink has shown a bit of go forward lately but I’ve not seen much of him yet.
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One guy who's contract is up and appears to be a free agent not linked with any clubs is Lukhanyo Am. That's a shock because he's arguably the best centre in the world. He'll probably stay in SA or got to Japan, but I'd definitely have him if we could afford him.
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As a left field option and possibly a bit early if there are no 12’s how about recruiting a 10 and looking at Atkinson at 12.
I've been down this road before suggesting it, but I've been informed that Atkinson being an out and out 10 means he wouldn't be able to play 12. I mean he's still young enough to learn, but i think it's a bit of a stumbling block.
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One guy who's contract is up and appears to be a free agent not linked with any clubs is Lukhanyo Am. That's a shock because he's arguably the best centre in the world. He'll probably stay in SA or got to Japan, but I'd definitely have him if we could afford him.
I didn't realise he was out of contract. Yes please. He is a fantastic player. I wouldn't imagine he would be cheap though.
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One guy who's contract is up and appears to be a free agent not linked with any clubs is Lukhanyo Am. That's a shock because he's arguably the best centre in the world. He'll probably stay in SA or got to Japan, but I'd definitely have him if we could afford him.
I didn't realise he was out of contract. Yes please. He is a fantastic player. I wouldn't imagine he would be cheap though.
Could be wrong, but articles imply his current contract expires before 2022/23 season.
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Luke James isn't a 12 by any stretch. Sam James or Sam Hill would be worth looking at if their contracts are up, but I don't know if they are
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If Sam Hill is fit then he and we might find a match. I saw him a lot for the U-20's (Eng) and he looked the part. Seems to have lost his way rather. But if we ended up with a fit....and hard tackling 12, it would be worth it - so long as that fitted our preferred strategy. Such experience would be valuable next to Jacob and Charlie....but if fit....
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If Sam Hill is fit then he and we might find a match. I saw him a lot for the U-20's (Eng) and he looked the part. Seems to have lost his way rather. But if we ended up with a fit....and hard tackling 12, it would be worth it - so long as that fitted our preferred strategy. Such experience would be valuable next to Jacob and Charlie....but if fit....
This is craziness Mike..sorry
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If Sam Hill is fit then he and we might find a match. I saw him a lot for the U-20's (Eng) and he looked the part. Seems to have lost his way rather. But if we ended up with a fit....and hard tackling 12, it would be worth it - so long as that fitted our preferred strategy. Such experience would be valuable next to Jacob and Charlie....but if fit....
This is craziness Mike..sorry
Well - even auditors get crazy once in a while....I always really liked him when I saw him live. My memory is most prob rather rose tinted....
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One other requirement. A place kicker. If Jimmy goes (or is not on the pitch), our kicking stats and options dive from 80-90% to maybe 50% with Jacob. Miller is better than Jacob, but not by much, and he is rarely on the pitch. If you took out Jimmy from this year, and replaced with the next best (poorer) kicker, we would have lost yet more of our games, including yesterday. None of the names bandied about thus far are place kickers. In theory, it should be Jacob, but he just doesn't cut it. I wonder how much he practices kicking? He certainly has had quite a few weeks to get some work done on that, as well has bending to tackle.
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One other requirement. A place kicker. If Jimmy goes (or is not on the pitch), our kicking stats and options dive from 80-90% to maybe 50% with Jacob. Miller is better than Jacob, but not by much, and he is rarely on the pitch. If you took out Jimmy from this year, and replaced with the next best (poorer) kicker, we would have lost yet more of our games, including yesterday. None of the names bandied about thus far are place kickers. In theory, it should be Jacob, but he just doesn't cut it. I wonder how much he practices kicking? He certainly has had quite a few weeks to get some work done on that, as well has bending to tackle.
FWIW: Ryan Mills is, I understand, quite a good kicker.
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One other requirement. A place kicker. If Jimmy goes (or is not on the pitch), our kicking stats and options dive from 80-90% to maybe 50% with Jacob. Miller is better than Jacob, but not by much, and he is rarely on the pitch. If you took out Jimmy from this year, and replaced with the next best (poorer) kicker, we would have lost yet more of our games, including yesterday. None of the names bandied about thus far are place kickers. In theory, it should be Jacob, but he just doesn't cut it. I wonder how much he practices kicking? He certainly has had quite a few weeks to get some work done on that, as well has bending to tackle.
I agree. Jimmy has kept us in - and won - so many games for us with his goal kicking and we really need a like for like replacement.
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I agree he (Mills) is a place kicker, but no better than Jacob. Plus, I still have doubts about his future with us. I do not see him as the 12 we need.
If you look at the URC and Championship, every good place kicker is a 10. With Jimmy in our squad, there has been no pressure on Jacob (or Charlie) to step up their kicking game.
Whatever happened to Ricky Ma'asi-White? He was promoted to the Senior Academy, but we saw him in the pre-season game against Coventry, but not since I think? At some point he was at Birmingham Moseley, but not reported as playing in any games that I can see?
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The stats may prove me wrong, but I always thought Mills was quite a high % kicker, whereas Jacob is more around 70% - which isn't high enough to be a first choice kicker.
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The stats may prove me wrong, but I always thought Mills was quite a high % kicker, whereas Jacob is more around 70% - which isn't high enough to be a first choice kicker.
I thought so too.
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Whatever happened to Ricky Ma'asi-White? He was promoted to the Senior Academy, but we saw him in the pre-season game against Coventry, but not since I think? At some point he was at Birmingham Moseley, but not reported as playing in any games that I can see?
He definitely was starting at 13 for Mosley for a while but has also turned out for Bournville since then where there are a few other young wasps lads, but that is another league below.
Think he has some way to go yet in his first season out of school but definitely has the raw talent. Just hope he doesn’t put on too much bulk and then struggle with injuries
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The stats may prove me wrong, but I always thought Mills was quite a high % kicker, whereas Jacob is more around 70% - which isn't high enough to be a first choice kicker.
I thought so too.
I can't find any stats, sadly.
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The stats may prove me wrong, but I always thought Mills was quite a high % kicker, whereas Jacob is more around 70% - which isn't high enough to be a first choice kicker.
I thought so too.
https://twitter.com/Goalkickers/status/1301427448446410753/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1301427448446410753%7Ctwgr%5Ehb_0_8%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rugbydump.com%2Fnews%2Ffords-goal-kicking-percentages-leaves-a-number-of-test-players-in-his-wake%2F
Can’t see that Ryan mills was ever first choice kicker at Worcester, in this chart 3 others took kicks for warriors in season before he came to us ( was he injured that season too ?)
In Five seasons at worcs he started 68 matches and came on as sub 3 times. He managed to get 5 tries and got 24 conversions and 29 penalty kicks . Now I know Worcester struggle, but Jimmy has managed to beat those kick figures ( and try numbers I think) in two separate seasons with us.
Don’t think he’s going to be answer.
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Always gave to be careful with kicking stats because some teams/players have different types if kicks. For example Daly's stats are almost exclusively long range kicks, exeter probably kicked penalties for corners more than posts etc.
Having said all that I agree we need to recruit a kicker AND send both our current 10s back to kicking school.
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Managed to watch a few of the extended highlights, and I think a game with Maasi-White, and he didn't really look that special in all honesty. Not one that screams out to me (could easily be wrong of course). The bits we saw from Hartley in the cup games were more encouraging.
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Managed to watch a few of the extended highlights, and I think a game with Maasi-White, and he didn't really look that special in all honesty. Not one that screams out to me (could easily be wrong of course). The bits we saw from Hartley in the cup games were more encouraging.
Agreed, he hasn't developed much since I saw him in junior play. He tended to run up too fast leaving a whole in the line, rarely passed it on (preferring to bash through, which works OK against younger/smaller kids, but not against bigger more mature players) and was poor in the tackle. But Hartley I had forgotten. Good shape and size and physique. Wonder if he can place kick? He has played well in the younger games I had seen him in.
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The stats may prove me wrong, but I always thought Mills was quite a high % kicker, whereas Jacob is more around 70% - which isn't high enough to be a first choice kicker.
I thought so too.
I can't find any stats, sadly.
The are stats on statbunker.
It appears to show that Jimmy's percentages are getting worse over the last few years
And Jacobs are getting better year on year and is at 80% for this season and from memory has a higher percentage than Jimmy
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The are stats on statbunker.
It appears to show that Jimmy's percentages are getting worse over the last few years
And Jacobs are getting better year on year and is at 80% for this season and from memory has a higher percentage than Jimmy
I do love a few stats and while they don't tell the full story they can be quite interesting and challenging to perceptions.
19/20
Jimmy - 54/61 - 88.25% (joint 2nd highest % from those who had taken 20+ kicks)
Jacob - 20/28 - 71.43% (16th)
20/21
Jimmy - 27/33 - 81.82% (5th)
Jacob - 39/49 - 79.59% (8th)
*Sopoaga actually 1st with 90% (18/20)
21/22
Jimmy - 25/33 - 75.76% (11th)
Jacob - 16/21 - 76.19% (joint 10th)
Only time Ryan Mills appears in the 2016/17 season when he was Worcester's primary kicker with 40/56 - 71.43%
Currently Jacob has better place kicking percentages for the season than Marcus Smith and Paddy Jackson and is only just below Ford and Joe Simmonds - in no way an outlier of poor kicking.
Charlie Atkinson isn't a poor kicker either - he hasn't had much of a chance at '1st class' level due to routinely playing with Gopperth and/or Umaga so maybe cannot be judged under pressure but I don't see a reason to prioritise signing a 12 or 15 just primarily because they are a good place kicker (esp as I can't think of many who would fit that criteria).
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Great research there. Good to know. What I will say is, Umaga does not attempt many out wide shots, or longer ones. Instead, he goes to the line. Jimmy does try more of those.
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Great research there. Good to know. What I will say is, Umaga does not attempt many out wide shots, or longer ones. Instead, he goes to the line. Jimmy does try more of those.
👍 Agreed.
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Great research there. Good to know. What I will say is, Umaga does not attempt many out wide shots, or longer ones. Instead, he goes to the line. Jimmy does try more of those.
👍 Agreed.
Chris Paterson also seemed to mostly take place kicks under 40 metres and I often saw him relinquish kicking duties if they were on the touchline or the wrong side
He's still classed as one of the great kickers
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If I remember right, in our game against Saints (when Jacob was kicking, Jimmy was on the bench) Jacob got the more difficult place kicks but missed 2 easier head on ones.
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Yes. Jacob had a mare of a game that game I think.
So, we also have Hartley and Simmonds coming in to the centre, and I guess Curran can replace Young. Does anyone know if either Curran or Simmonds do kicking?
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Given it's relative importance in the game, i'm surprised that more squad members aren't seemingly encouraged to learn how to 'kick sticks'.
After Cruse's beautiful spiral kick from hands at the weekend, i'd have him in as a leftfield choice kicker.
Seems like long gone are the days when you're 15, or Lock would kick - It's almost exclusively Fly-halfs these days other than a handful of Scrum-halfs (mainly in France)
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After Cruse's beautiful spiral kick from hands at the weekend, i'd have him in as a leftfield choice kicker.
Glad someone else called that one out - I thought my specs had failed me at first and I'd mixed up Cruse and Atkinson - was a great kick
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Burger ODENDAAL is in the media to join us.
https://www.thesouthafrican.com/sport/rugby/lions-centre-pairing-wanted-overseas-wandisile-simelane-burger-odendaal-currie-cup-urc-transfer-news-big-sunday-read-6-february-2022/
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Burger ODENDAAL is in the media to join us.
https://www.thesouthafrican.com/sport/rugby/lions-centre-pairing-wanted-overseas-wandisile-simelane-burger-odendaal-currie-cup-urc-transfer-news-big-sunday-read-6-february-2022/
Article doesn't exactly sing his praises.
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Burger ODENDAAL is in the media to join us.
https://www.thesouthafrican.com/sport/rugby/lions-centre-pairing-wanted-overseas-wandisile-simelane-burger-odendaal-currie-cup-urc-transfer-news-big-sunday-read-6-february-2022/
Article doesn't exactly sing his praises.
I thought that too, but must be reasonable if club captain. Highlight reel ok, but then they always are
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Looks a reasonable player. We certainly need bodies there.
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Burger ODENDAAL is in the media to join us.
https://www.thesouthafrican.com/sport/rugby/lions-centre-pairing-wanted-overseas-wandisile-simelane-burger-odendaal-currie-cup-urc-transfer-news-big-sunday-read-6-february-2022/
Interesting to read of the link between Mitch and Odendall.
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I think the Mitchell link is the key.
With his coaching experience, recommending a player has credibility.
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If he does come to us will he be a Booj replacement? Big and strong squad player but with SA nous and leadership qualities.
He may be tempted by the value of the pound to rand and represent a cheaper value for money option for us.
As the article states, unlikely to be called up by the Boks.
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I think he would be an Esterhuizen equivalent, although we would be fortunate for him to be as effective.
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I don't know him, but most teams benefit from a centre whose first thought is to run straight.
Too many attacking opportunities are ruined by players running sideways and limiting the space out wide
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I do think that a "hard running" 12 is a good fit for most teams. It does mean that if we had such a player, we'd need to think about who will be providing the alternative to the FH. Currently, this has been Jimmy with the aim to have the harder runner at 13 (Fekitoa) or wider in Odogwu.
So if we did have a power 12 to provide options ball in hand as a decoy for wider players, we would need to think how we use a second distributor and who that might be.
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I do think that a "hard running" 12 is a good fit for most teams. It does mean that if we had such a player, we'd need to think about who will be providing the alternative to the FH. Currently, this has been Jimmy with the aim to have the harder runner at 13 (Fekitoa) or wider in Odogwu.
So if we did have a power 12 to provide options ball in hand as a decoy for wider players, we would need to think how we use a second distributor and who that might be.
I agree with respect to playmaking we'll likely go down 10-15 axis. But also we've relied on Gopperths management (kicking game in particular) to ease pressure for Atkinson and Umaga. But think we need them to take more responsibility in future matches to make the transition without Gopperth easier.
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I suspect we will go Atkinson 10 and Umaga 15
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I suspect we will go Atkinson 10 and Umaga 15
But then given how talented Crossdale is, how do we include him?
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Bear in mind that a hard running 12 doesn't have to be an absolute monster of a man.
Ben Jacobs fulfilled the role for us on a couple of occasions and offered more besides.
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I suspect we will go Atkinson 10 and Umaga 15
But then given how talented Crossdale is, how do we include him?
Well, neither are playing currently. How amny games per season does a player play for their club?
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Wouldn't Miller be able to fill the role of second distributor?
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Doesn't need to be a massive player to be a good 12. Giteau was one of the best 12s ever to play the game, and was tiny in comparison.
It depends how we want to play. I see value in having defensive solidity and direct running at 12 - but at the same time I can see the case for a second distributor at 12. It depends how we want to play - but this is one thing you can't mix and match in, or go horses for courses. You have to play the same way regardless of personnel - you just decide what that is and build the squad necessary to do it.
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Wouldn't Miller be able to fill the role of second distributor?
At 12? I like Crossdale at 15 as our first-choice. I'm not sure we'll much more of Minozzi, unfortunately.
With Jimmy off and Mills' long-term fitness uncertain. Would it be a daft idea to see how we go with a Jacob/Charlie-Miller axis?
I think we play our best (attacking) rugby with Jacob at 10, but his consistency is an issue, although I think a lot of that is a mental thing. Still think Charlie at 12 has legs longer-term and Miller has a reasonable amount of the attributes that Jimmy has; a decent rugby brain, can kick, doesn't shirk many tackles, picks good lines when at Full-Back and can pass.
Are we too guilty (as fans) of seeking answers outside of our Squad rather than looking inwards a bit more?
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Wasps reportedly in talks with Lions centre Burger Odendaal
Bobby Bridge reports.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-talks-lions-centre-23007562 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-talks-lions-centre-23007562)
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I think Charlie at 12 is a pretty good shout, he doesn’t shy away from a tackle and is a clever player. Wouldn’t mind seeing that
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I think Charlie at 12 is a pretty good shout, he doesn’t shy away from a tackle and is a clever player. Wouldn’t mind seeing that
Surprisingly strong carrier as well given how slight he looks
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Wasps reportedly in talks with Lions centre Burger Odendaal
Bobby Bridge reports.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-talks-lions-centre-23007562 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-talks-lions-centre-23007562)
Had a quick peak at one of his highlight reels on YouTube. Been mentioned on here, looks similar physically to Estherheizen. Has a decent looking step on him, not just a bosh-merchant.
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Wasps reportedly in talks with Lions centre Burger Odendaal
Bobby Bridge reports.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-talks-lions-centre-23007562 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-talks-lions-centre-23007562)
Had a quick peak at one of his highlight reels on YouTube. Been mentioned on here, looks similar physically to Estherheizen. Has a decent looking step on him, not just a bosh-merchant.
Reminded me more of Fraser Waters
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I think Charlie at 12 is a pretty good shout, he doesn’t shy away from a tackle and is a clever player. Wouldn’t mind seeing that
I like this too. Spink outside him, then Josh and Odogwu on the wings. But, for me Ali at FB first choice.
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I think Charlie at 12 is a pretty good shout, he doesn’t shy away from a tackle and is a clever player. Wouldn’t mind seeing that
I like this too. Spink outside him, then Josh and Odogwu on the wings. But, for me Ali at FB first choice.
Your final point - yes. I hope Ali can get a run injury free or else he will drop down the order.
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I think Charlie at 12 is a pretty good shout, he doesn’t shy away from a tackle and is a clever player. Wouldn’t mind seeing that
Given his age he’s likely to put a bit of bulk on over the next couple of years so could really dominate in that position.
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Added comment on Burger:
"YouTube channel TASanalytics, which has more than 10,000 subscribers, claimed Odendall to be 'the most underrated player in South Africa' in a caption for a video montage of his best moments in December 2020."
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Wasps reportedly in talks with Lions centre Burger Odendaal
Bobby Bridge reports.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-talks-lions-centre-23007562 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-reportedly-talks-lions-centre-23007562)
Had a quick peak at one of his highlight reels on YouTube. Been mentioned on here, looks similar physically to Estherheizen. Has a decent looking step on him, not just a bosh-merchant.
Haven’t seen him play for a few years but would definitely be a step up on Booj.
Hard running, big guy with pretty good hands too. Not quite the offloading prowess and fear factor of Estherhuizen but will also come a lot cheaper I imagine.
Not sure about his injury record but with Mills, Spink, Simonds as the potential other options next year we need someone with a bit more durability too. (Another reason why Booj has actually played so much)
I too agree a hard running 12 plays more to our strengths than a second ball playing 12. Gets a young inexperienced 10 out of trouble if he needs someone and creates more space for Odogwu or Spink at 13, it could work.
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We're already a little dubious about Umaga's defence, as is pretty normal for fly halfs.
While Atkinson is certainly not scared of trying to tackle, he's not struck me as a defender that can cover the inside channel as well as his own against big strike runners.
If your 10 and 12 are seen as slightly weak defenders you'll have big runners coming at them all the time.
That'll be the making or breaking of some
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We're already a little dubious about Umaga's defence, as is pretty normal for fly halfs.
While Atkinson is certainly not scared of trying to tackle, he's not struck me as a defender that can cover the inside channel as well as his own against big strike runners.
If your 10 and 12 are seen as slightly weak defenders you'll have big runners coming at them all the time.
That'll be the making or breaking of some
Sorry apart from the red card tackles if you watch Jacob during a match he tackles quite ferociously. Unlike a former 10 of this parish who's tackles over his stay can be counted on one hand.