Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: COYW15 on September 27, 2022, 06:52:20 PM
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10 mins to go. Looking forward to seeing how the youngsters get on.
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Keep it coming. I don't have BT :(
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From Bobby.
Try Wasps
The ball is shifted to the left and Hartley puts the grubber through, Dawkins wins the race and goes over in the corner.
Haydon-Wood adds the extras
Tigers 0-7 Wasps
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Lovely kick (Hartley??) puts Dawkins in the corner. Hayden-Wood converts from touch. Good start. 7-0 11 mins
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Tigers drive over after getting a 50-22. Con from touch. 7-7 23 mins
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Backs look good when we spin the ball. More please.
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Lots of big collisions. Wasps ahead 7 v 17.
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Lovely try by Hartley started on our own 22. Excellent handling. Soft missed tackle by Tigers to allow Hartley through, but he showed good strength to get there.
Penalty a few minutes later. Now 7-17.
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Try Tigers. Odogwu too high in the tackle and bounced off far too easily. 14-17.
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wasps giving away too many pens. also need to defend the rolling maul a lot better
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Cut out the pens - keep ball in hand.
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wasps giving away too many pens. also need to defend the rolling maul a lot better
How can Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (shall we refer to him as IFW or IF-W or something else for shorthand) get to this level and not know he has to at least stand still when a kick has been made?
He’s an exciting prospect, though, and I reckon will put bums on seats and then get the off again. I’ll bet he becomes a firm favourite with kids.
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Exciting first half. Tigers forward drives are causing us big problems but our backs look dangerous.
T 14 v 17 W.
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Rodrigo replaced at halftime. Probably planned.
Our half backs look assured. Hartley looks solid but not sure his best position is 15.
Still 14 v 17.
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A typical Wasps 2nd half so far.
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I hope someone tells Greg Fisilau that Austin Healey thinks he is a bit of a pussy who has been dominated by the Tigers 8 today.
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Hartley has a massive boot.
I'm not sure IFW knows the laws, but he's certainly got some gas
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Hartley try from earlier
https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1574834050979827737?t=Pj9XKTAx-SLeQCHtIfgBzw&s=19
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I think we are about to be physically annihilated.
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Leicester 10 has had a stinker of a game
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Their 10 is having a mare.
Tigers have beefed up their pack but if we can get near parity our backs could win this. More needed from our second row.
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pen, after pen nothing changed
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I think we are about to be physically annihilated.
Chessum, Ilione, Hosea and the maul dominating
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The ref looks a bit tired as he has been ignoring the offside line most of this half.
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We scored a clear try for me not given inexplicably but too many pens.
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I find it truly remarkable how we suddenly become so ill disciplined in the second half away from home with Anthony Woodthorpe as the ref...
I also find it remarkable how when the TMO can't see the line because the ball is on it it isn't a try.
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I’d be interested in the average age of the teams, because I’d I had to describe our performance in one word it would be be naïve.
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Forwards overpowered and naive. Old adage forwards win you games once more coming to the fore. Backs started well but as the Leicester defence worked out that they were trying to run to the wings and get through there they could not adjust what they were doing this posed far less threat second forty.
Lesson for them all.
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Surprised that blatantly obvious try wasn’t given, especially given the replay. But then again astonished the elbow round the neck in the maul had to be called out by the TMO when it was right in front of Woodthorpe.
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No points since the 29th minute, just too many penalties and getting physically battered
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Reffing has been Woodthorpesque. He doesn’t see much. But we needed to win this one first 40 when we had some first teamers on. Overpowered second 40 and too many errors. Disappointed by Odogwu and Vukasinovic in particular but Hartley, Fisilau and Haydon-Wood looked good.
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I hope someone tells Greg Fisilau that Austin Healey thinks he is a bit of a pussy who has been dominated by the Tigers 8 today.
Austin appears to have revised his opinion there, heaping praise on Fisilau at the end. Think only the scoreline stopped him from getting MoM.
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Good game but Tigers forward dominance - driving maul and jackaling - won the game.
Healey talking up Fisalau. Their number 7 was awesome.
Our first half scrum was strong and most of our youngsters played well - many will turn out to be top drawer. Impressive performances by Fisalau, both our half backs and Hartley.
Nothing to worry about really.
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“ Hartley, Fisilau and Haydon-Wood looked good.”
I don’t think Fisilau is ready but the other 2 have earned the right for a Prem start.
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Nice bit of tactical selection from Borthwick.
He could see Wasps have a tendency to be flakey and cave in the 2nd half when under a little pressure, so ensured he had some nice chunky subs to come of the bench.
Pretty standard for Wasps I think. Some moments of skill, but an overall lack of resilience both mentally and physically
I suspect we'll be saying the same all season..
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I think Stooke and Koch [sounds like an end of pier comedy duo from the 60's] will add steel to the pack.
Martinez certainly did for the first half.
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I hope someone tells Greg Fisilau that Austin Healey thinks he is a bit of a pussy who has been dominated by the Tigers 8 today.
Austin appears to have revised his opinion there, heaping praise on Fisilau at the end. Think only the scoreline stopped him from getting MoM.
I'm not sure there was a reversal - Healey was extremely complimentary about Fisilau and it felt (to me) that he gave him a lot of airtime. His point was that it's a big step up to Prem Rugby from U20 and a big part of Fisilau's development will be to be able to carry on his physicality and step it up to compete with the Prem, the example he drew was that the Tigers No.8 won all the collisions vs Fisilau. It was a pretty fair point.
On the other hand, thought he was extremely critical of the Tigers starting 10.
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“ Hartley, Fisilau and Haydon-Wood looked good.”
I don’t think Fisilau is ready but the other 2 have earned the right for a Prem start.
I thought Hartley was a 12 coming through the ranks? - He's got some similarities to Freddie Steward - Tall, good physicality and decent pace. Haydon-Wood looked very assured.
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That was surprisingly disappointing. I agree with a lot of what's been said here.
In terms of players the generally positive for me were:
Fisilau - as others said, agree with Healy: great engine and work-rate, looks to have a good rugby brain too, ran some good lines. Just out muscled a bit. A year with S&C and the dietician putting on 4-5kgs while keeping the energy round the park could see him become very effective considering he's only 19.
McArthur - the scrum wasn't as dominant in the second half when Martinez went off, but it didn't go backwards despite Tigers bringing on the very experienced Leatigaga. Round the park he looked full of energy, quick, hit hard. He reminds me a bit of Matt Mullan. More scrum experience and I think he could be a player. Should have had a try too.
Hartley - best of our youngsters. Looks to have a high rugby IQ - made some very good decisions, big boot, strong. Definitely a 12 for me though. I wouldn't have him ahead of Burger or Mills yet, he missed a lot of rugby last year so some more games for Ampthill and PRC but he's the next cab if one of them is unavailable IMO.
Craven - I liked Monye but Craven is a step up as an academy 9. Everything apart from the box kicking was strong. Quick to the ruck, accurate passes, good support lines. Could have taken charge a bit more when we were camped on their line.
Haydon-Wood - Mostly played well. Good in the air, passing, decision making for the most part etc. Wasn't too impressed by his kicking out of hand though. quite a few of his kicks would have been punished far more if Jed Walsh wasn't wearing clown shoes - won't get those chances against the likes of Biggar, Farrel, Ford etc - so would have liked to see more of his running game.
Dawkins - Fumbled a pass early but took his try really well. Reminded me a bit of Caden Murley.
Disspointments:
Curran - I've been a big fan of Keiran's and have been hoping this will be his breakthrough year but in all honesty, he was outplayed by his opposite number in every respect. Two scrums he was very slow to get away from and as a 7 that's not great as you leave your 10 very exposed.
Simonds - Some good passes but also some bad decision making. A couple of times he looked like he didn't know what to do and dithered and made a silly error in the double roll.
Vukasinovic - Mostly for not having a plan to stop their maul which crushed us. He should have been lineout leader and mixing up how we defended. We put a jumper up almost every time and they had no impact and left us exposed. Could have tried sacking the catcher as soon as they landed or setting for the drive. Also missed a couple of tackles.
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Re-watched the second half this morning. I think a number of the younger Wasps player ought to be pleased with their game if not the outcome. Watching the 60 to 68th minute - you could see how decisions by officials can turn a game. And this game was no different. We 90%+ did score on their line and the ref really ought to have given a warning for repeated infringements. That would as Austin noted - have been tied scores - and for me, ought to have been a card.
I really thought the ref was doing an ok job at the breakdown in the fist half - but in the second half - and looking back to the first, he was rather flaky on the ruck Laws - especially a) the tackler needing to release and b) when a ruck is formed - it only needs one player from each side. The Tigers 7 is an astounding player but was regularly aided in the SH by the officiating. Even Austin hinted at this...Ditto the "collapsing the maul" - too often seemed to make it the defenders' responsibility to keep the maul up.
Observations about us. I know right wing gets less ball as they get passes off the left hand but when we have such a talent...surely we need to get the ball to him? And if we are one out again and again on their line - surely we ought to use the threats that have worked - drive, get cover in ruck, quick ball away to the backline?
General observation. I've been critical of the problems defending mauls where it looks too much like legal obstruction - especially near the line. But the Tigers success in this area (over the line) seems at least in part deliberately collapsing the maul - but over the line so "held" up (If I am wrong here please say!) That seems wrong. Or has Borthwick's team seen something others haven't?
Given the first half and the way the scrum went and how some of the very young players responded - not going to get too depressed by that.
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Very similar thoughts, was really looking forward to this game and expecting a better performance. We really got physically battered which is so disappointing and unfortunately so familiar.
Both locks were poor, Paolo was really bad, maybe needs more game time.
Fisilau does look decent lots of energy but to be a quality 8 he has got to be stronger, only 19 but that is likely to change, definitely a player to keep an eye on. I like Feyi-Waboso an exciting runner. Olly Hartley is a good player.
Overall was disappointed, our DNA when we won things was, physically and mentally strong, we had the 'you shall not pass' attitude that I loved about Wasps
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Don’t think we need to get downhearted by this. We’re talking about quite a few players who have had no recent rugby at all. I think as much as anything else the laws need drumming into the likes of Dodson and Feyi-Waboso. The two main worries I had coming out of it were Simonds needs to show something soon. For me he’s already behind Odendaal, Mills and Hartley and he’s been around for a while. Locks - I know we have Stooke to come back and I’m happy with Launch, McDonald and Cardall but over a season that’s not much depth and Dodson and Vukasinovic look a good way off Prem standard at the minute.
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only 19 but that is likely to change
In another year or so he might be 20!
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There were times where if the ball had been moved quicker, or just one pass given, we would have opened Tigers up. It was really poor to be camped on their line and not have the nous to at least try Paolo's power and pace.
Not surprised Paolo looked off the pace given these are his first minutes of the season. Simonds also looked really rusty actually.
Hartley did a good job at 15, WHW again did pretty well at 10. Fisilau impressed with his engine and constant carrying, but Fyn Brown also looked good in that lock/6 role.
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Not sure whether Fisilau has the ultimate size at the top level at 8.
His strengths are his work rate, link play and his speed, he was absolutely everywhere yesterday.
If he can shadow Nemo for the next few years that would be fantastic, but I wonder whether a shift to 7 might happen as Ilione has. Problem is, with him, Tunney and Cripps coming through, they’re all probably fighting out to become 7s with Curran just ahead of them.
Not sure we’ll be able to keep them all.
I agree Simonds has to push on now, he’s 22, the same age as Spink, has served his time with Nottingham, recent experience at Manly, overcome some big injuries and now needs to show what he’s about as Hartley is probably ahead of him now at 12 and 15.
Think we lacked a slightly more experienced bench option in the second row or back row to come and steady things.
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I have noted on other threads that it is beginning to really annoy me that some teams are using the ball held up decision to haul a player over their line to break up attacks. Obviously legal but certain teams seem to be using it as a tactic time and again.
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On the other hand, thought he was extremely critical of the Tigers starting 10.
With justification, his kicking out of had was woeful as was his decision making.
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I have noted on other threads that it is beginning to really annoy me that some teams are using the ball held up decision to haul a player over their line to break up attacks. Obviously legal but certain teams seem to be using it as a tactic time and again.
Definitely seems this is starting to creep in, wonder why we still persist with the pick and go to get held up.
Teams need to adapt as knocking on the door for 20 phases for a drop out to then take you back to half way is a real momentum killer
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I have noted on other threads that it is beginning to really annoy me that some teams are using the ball held up decision to haul a player over their line to break up attacks. Obviously legal but certain teams seem to be using it as a tactic time and again.
It was a tactic I suggested when they announced this law change. Amazed more teams do not do it.
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What annoys me is when teams (not just Wasps) try to batter their way over the line from 5m by passing to a single one out carrier with maybe someone bound on. Again and again for endless phases.
I'd like to see some variation on different phases. For instance, why not use the one out carrier as a decoy or to offload to someone coming round the corner to stretch the defence more. When the point of attack is obvious the defence just need to flood the guard position. Having a wave of attackers, where any one of them can exploit a weak shoulder to break through or draw the cover to create space outside would be preferable.
In Wasps' case, I've noticed a tendency to get held up or to drop the ball when trying to batter the line. Or they lose composure and throw it out wide in desperation and without having created the space and lose the ball.
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What annoys me is when teams (not just Wasps) try to batter their way over the line from 5m by passing to a single one out carrier with maybe someone bound on. Again and again for endless phases.
I suspect this is entirely driven by the coaches to keep it as low-risk as possible. Mark Atkinson spoke about some of this sort of stuff (not necessarily one-out passes from 5m out) on Eggchasers saying something similar. For context, they were discussing most teams being comfortable with aggressive defensive lines and how they're pretty predictable - same with box kick set-ups - and why don't more teams do something different (in defence) to change the picture and take the predictability out of it to worry the attacking team.
Mark said he saw huge upside in doing different things; but ultimately who wants to be the guy in the Monday morning meeting having to explain why they've let someone through by coming out of the defensive line.
There were a number of times last night when we could have gone wide with both Hartley and Dawkins looking a real handful to bring down and also Feyi-Waboso's twinkling feet. That being said, Feyi-Waboso looked good going forward but needs to work on his rugby intellect a bit more - got pinged for being offside after a kick and Healey had pointed out several other examples beforehand of him getting away with the same.
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Just a point on Feyi-Waboso's offside. It looks really strange and the second time he ballsed up by moving forward but this is a tactic that started creeping in last year and I think we may see more of. The law is that if the player receiving the kick runs 5m then all players are onside so you can stand miles in front of your kicker and as long as you don't advance you can play after the receiver travels 5m. He actually did it perfectly the first time and Woodthorpe commented on how the second time was a penalty because he advanced.
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Don’t think we need to get downhearted by this. We’re talking about quite a few players who have had no recent rugby at all. I think as much as anything else the laws need drumming into the likes of Dodson and Feyi-Waboso. The two main worries I had coming out of it were Simonds needs to show something soon. For me he’s already behind Odendaal, Mills and Hartley and he’s been around for a while. Locks - I know we have Stooke to come back and I’m happy with Launch, McDonald and Cardall but over a season that’s not much depth and Dodson and Vukasinovic look a good way off Prem standard at the minute.
What worries me is that just like Tigers they played the way the 1st XV do. They have adopted the Wasps DNA and that is moments of flair in a sea of mediocrity. It's fragility and seemingly a lack of fitness.
What worries me is that whoever pulls the shirt on plays exactly the same.
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Is it something that improves when Mitchell returns?
Or does his return strengthen the defence and mindset, but also limit our attacking gameplay?
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I may be 100% wrong but I’m doubtful about Mitchell’s impact. His whole stay here has a transient feel to it.
VV - share those concerns - and would add the penalty count to it.
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I may be 100% wrong but I’m doubtful about Mitchell’s impact. His whole stay here has a transient feel to it.
VV - share those concerns - and would add the penalty count to it.
I think I agree.
The whole thing with how it came about, swapping roles mid season etc. just feels... Weird
However, I do live in hope.
If we had Shaun Edwards on the staff, we'd be saying how the players wouldn't want to be in front of him after a match.
It feels that Mitchell carries a bit of that about him, so maybe it can help drive us...
What's worse though is that if that is what's missing, why do we let him go, and why can't anyone else play the bad guy?
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That was surprisingly disappointing. I agree with a lot of what's been said here.
In terms of players the generally positive for me were:
Fisilau - as others said, agree with Healy: great engine and work-rate, looks to have a good rugby brain too, ran some good lines. Just out muscled a bit. A year with S&C and the dietician putting on 4-5kgs while keeping the energy round the park could see him become very effective considering he's only 19.
McArthur - the scrum wasn't as dominant in the second half when Martinez went off, but it didn't go backwards despite Tigers bringing on the very experienced Leatigaga. Round the park he looked full of energy, quick, hit hard. He reminds me a bit of Matt Mullan. More scrum experience and I think he could be a player. Should have had a try too.
Hartley - best of our youngsters. Looks to have a high rugby IQ - made some very good decisions, big boot, strong. Definitely a 12 for me though. I wouldn't have him ahead of Burger or Mills yet, he missed a lot of rugby last year so some more games for Ampthill and PRC but he's the next cab if one of them is unavailable IMO.
Craven - I liked Monye but Craven is a step up as an academy 9. Everything apart from the box kicking was strong. Quick to the ruck, accurate passes, good support lines. Could have taken charge a bit more when we were camped on their line.
Haydon-Wood - Mostly played well. Good in the air, passing, decision making for the most part etc. Wasn't too impressed by his kicking out of hand though. quite a few of his kicks would have been punished far more if Jed Walsh wasn't wearing clown shoes - won't get those chances against the likes of Biggar, Farrel, Ford etc - so would have liked to see more of his running game.
Dawkins - Fumbled a pass early but took his try really well. Reminded me a bit of Caden Murley.
Disspointments:
Curran - I've been a big fan of Keiran's and have been hoping this will be his breakthrough year but in all honesty, he was outplayed by his opposite number in every respect. Two scrums he was very slow to get away from and as a 7 that's not great as you leave your 10 very exposed.
Simonds - Some good passes but also some bad decision making. A couple of times he looked like he didn't know what to do and dithered and made a silly error in the double roll.
Vukasinovic - Mostly for not having a plan to stop their maul which crushed us. He should have been lineout leader and mixing up how we defended. We put a jumper up almost every time and they had no impact and left us exposed. Could have tried sacking the catcher as soon as they landed or setting for the drive. Also missed a couple of tackles.
Good summary. I was similarly quietly impressed with McArthur. He made an impression when he came on and didn’t disgrace himself in the scrum.
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I may be 100% wrong but I’m doubtful about Mitchell’s impact. His whole stay here has a transient feel to it.
VV - share those concerns - and would add the penalty count to it.
I've seen nothing to suggest Mitchell's presence has had any significant impact on performances or results. The problems we have today are the same problems we had for all of last season both when Mitchell was here and elsewhere. Not saying Mitchell isn't making a difference, it's hard to believe that someone of his experience doesn't contribute anything, but the blame for some of our recent performances does not lie with Mitchell's on/off relationship with the club.
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I may be 100% wrong but I’m doubtful about Mitchell’s impact. His whole stay here has a transient feel to it.
VV - share those concerns - and would add the penalty count to it.
I'm in the same area as Shugs - I'd need to see some evidence of change once he's back in office. I do think it would be harsh to judge on last season when too often the coach driver was bringing his boots and fit players like Stooke starting 22 games in the Prem. It's hard to be objective. Well it is for me!
Whilst I do think there is a view that this season Wasps are "flaky" after half time, I do think it's potentially too easy to suggest it's a club wide issue. Tuesday's game was one which looked a lot like Tigers vs Saints in the Prem. One side with the wheels and able to use quick ball - when they could provide it - and one that absorbed that pressure, didn't panic and bullied their way through to a win. I think we were a tad unlucky on Tues and more in the game than Saints. And when talking about the game on Tues, Austin H - no fan of ours - was quite complementary about our play both on Tuesday and in the Prem and was essentially (to precis rather) suggesting we'd not had the "rub of the green"
So - what would be more of a worry is if we're not clever enough to adapt. in the 2021 6Ns, Wales beat England (in part) by not kicking to touch (avoiding the Eng lineout throw in) and kept the ball in wide channels looking to their "all team" ability over the ball. But this season, we've looked good individually too often not great as a team when under any pressure and seemingly failing to demonstrate on and off field leadership such that 20+ point leads seem marginal....
So we have a week "off" and Saints at home next week. We need to show we can adapt as Oct includes Tigers and Exeter away......which is no-one's idea of gimmies...
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Full match up on Premiership website
https://www.premiershiprugby.com/watch/full-match-leicester-tigers-v-wasps-premiership-rugby-cup-round-2
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There have been plenty of other teams this season who have looked nailed on winners at half time who then lost the second half, or just scraped a win.
Its not just Wasps.
Pundit reviews of Wasps attacking play have been very complimentary, its up to the team to continue playing like that even when the opposition put the pressure on.