Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Shugs on March 14, 2022, 09:42:04 PM
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Accepting that teams on paper win nothing but still requiring a boost after Saints I wonder if we can allow ourselves some optimism in terms of our current (as perceived by me) problems and the fixes visible down the line. To start with we’ve lost loads of possession, field position and points due to scrum penalties. Next year Koch instantly transforms that. Coupled with Martinez signing at LH and Alo’s upturn in form it should become a way for us to win games. Second, we’ve played the thick end of 2 seasons trying to patch Gopperth up to squeeze more time out of him at 12. Odendaal brings what will hopefully be a bit of solidity, quality and physicality. Injuries are cyclical so it’s a bit hopeful and maybe misguided to say we won’t have any but long term injuries for Launchbury, Willis, Barbeary, Fekitoa and Odogwu really tore the heart out of us. You’d hope that wouldn’t be repeated. On the flip side in the interest of balance I can’t see any resolution to the problem I think we do have at 10. Atkinson is fine. He’s a young 10 who will improve and we should invest in. But he’s not front rank yet. Umaga has flashes of genius. But unfortunately I cannot think of one game where he hasn’t accompanied the good bits with at least three or four pieces of abject play. I compare that to the control the likes of Hastings, MacGinty, Simmonds, Ford, Jackson, Biggar and Grayson give their teams and we’re miles away. Finances dictate that I don’t think that problems getting fixed. I think we’ll see some new faces in the back three which will freshen things up there which is all we really need there. All theory I know and some may want to see some coaching changes to get optimistic but I’m hopeful long standing issues are getting fixed. They need to as it can’t always be jam tomorrow.
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I agree that 10 is the big gaping hole. Umaga has been given his shot and shown how good he can be, but unless he can do that consistently for 80 minutes every week, then he remains some way behind those you mention above, and you can add Smith, Sheedy and Goode to that list. Atkinson still developing, and not yet the finished article. Do we now show him the same patience that was shown to Umaga? What if we then find ourselves in the same position with him another couple of years down the line?
An international quality, moderately experienced 10 like many of those mentioned is a must for next season if we are to improve, but those don't grow on trees, and certainly don't come cheap. Either that or the coaches need to fix whatever it is that has so far prevented Umaga from fulfilling his undoubted potential.
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Re 10, I think the gapping issue is also that teams have happily used (in the Prem) to good effect, 12T, Goode, Furbank - none of whom are first choice 10's to provide mature control to Glaws, EA's and Saints at times. 12T is one of my fav players - now under the tutelage of the great Alex King in what looks a lot like "Wasps away" coaching team....
I think we thought Umaga would blossom under the care of Jimmy - we prob can't know how the whole injury impact has affected their ability to progress - but.....we need a senior mature player to take the reins and soon.
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10 is just a pain regardless how we handle it.
Keeping both young 10s means we will struggle for a few seasons until at least one of them blossoms into a worldie and is someone we can rely on.
Let one go for a more experienced 10 means we'll steady the ship sooner, but knowing our luck the one that left will develop into a worldie and not be with us anymore.
What's frustrating is neither looks particularly great at the moment. Marcus Smith looked great when he first arrived and continued to grow. Jacob did as well, but he's really gone downhill since and is a spiritual successor to Cipriani in every sense (including the bad stuff).
Either we develop them better or replace one, those are the 2 options. Based on how poor the development is, maybe we should replace one? Or alternatively hire someone who can develop them further as a coach.
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Umaga will be 24 this summer and is not improving, I just don't see him as a 1st choice 10, I really don't mind him as a squad player but we surely can't base our season again on Umaga.
I would like to invest time and money on Charlie as I think he can be very good but that's 2 seasons away. For me Umaga should really be fighting it out with Charlie as our 2nd choice 10 for the next couple of seasons
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I’d like to see a mentor/part-time coach coming and assisting every few weeks.
I’ve mentioned this before, but we don’t have a creative outside half on the coaching team.
I’m sure Jimmy has added value, but he’s also having to look after his body and workload at his age.
If we are going to persist with both Jacob and Charlie, then a fly half mentor is the minimum requirement.
Otherwise, one may have to be moved on to make space.
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What does it look like fixed?
- We reduce our long-term injury list significantly. Be it bad luck, poor prehab, over-playing, too much contact in training or whatever it may be. If it's genuinely bad luck, then so be it but I suspect we can look at ways to reduce the number of long-term injuries
- We decide how we want to play. We were at our best most recently when we were focussed on attacking from turnover ball and ruthlessly punished the opposition when transitioning from defence to attack. This season has largely been about pragmatic rugby, we've seen little from our supremely talented backline and what feels like more scores from driving lineouts than I can recall.
The next point is a bit chicken/egg with the last one. As sometimes tactics are decided by the personnel available and sometimes the selection is driven by tactics.
- We try and put some consistency back into selection. Our pack isn't really the issue; they're settled and we have good options. Set piece has been pretty good. It's the backline that is a bit of a nightmare. Not helped by the first point but also not helped by uncertainty around who we put where in our backline. As fans, I suspect we'd have slightly different backlines if asked what we think we should be playing if all were fit - i.e. Jacob/Charlie, Jimmy/Ryan, Odogwu/Fekitoa, Crossdale/Miller/Minozzi. Most of us would start Josh, but who else on the wing? - Watson/Kibirige/Mehson?
For me, I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the proverbial bathwater. Coaching staff is inexperienced but balanced out slightly by Mitch and let's be honest, the highly regarded Boyd has hardly set the world on fire at Saints. It feels like recruitment has been sensible and I'm excited by the Academy signings for the longer term.
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When he is fixed, I'd start Hougaard over Josh. Frannie looking so impressive and keen when he was on the wing earlier in the season. Sheer bad luck to do his hammie at the death against Tiggs.
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When he is fixed, I'd start Hougaard over Josh. Frannie looking so impressive and keen when he was on the wing earlier in the season. Sheer bad luck to do his hammie at the death against Tiggs.
I think that is a good shout, pretty sure Hougaard should be fit for the Newcastle game
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Aren't the long term injured all back now?
Fekitoa is still out, but other than that we have Alfie, Joe, Jack and mills all back fun6 their long term injuries.
We're essentially putting out our first team now, albeit a first team akin to that at the start of a season where they're not fully match hardened.
With the exception of Mitchell, it's a young coaching team that probably haven't dealt with this kind of adversity at this level before, so they're treading new waters looking for the solution.
The last time we were in a hole like this was at the end of Dai's tenure, although it may be that we'd just started to turn the corner when he left.
Lee came in and supposedly let the players off the leash, let them play for themselves and for Dai.... And it worked.
Unfortunately that approach doesn't always work, and it's counter intuitive for a coach to fix things by doing less.
I don't know what the answer is, but I feel like a mental reset is required
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Aren't the long term injured all back now?
Fekitoa is still out, but other than that we have Alfie, Joe, Jack and mills all back fun6 their long term injuries.
It may be true that they're back playing again but:
- Only 1 of the 4 you mention played against Saints though
- (Anomaly) All 4 were in vs Bristol (and we were poor),
- Only Mills started vs Quins with Jack off of the bench
- Only Launch started vs Bath with Alfie/Mills off of the bench
- Launch/Alfie both started vs Chiefs. Neither Jack nor Mills were in the squad
So for 5 big games they've not been on the pitch playing.
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When he is fixed, I'd start Hougaard over Josh. Frannie looking so impressive and keen when he was on the wing earlier in the season. Sheer bad luck to do his hammie at the death against Tiggs.
I think that is a good shout, pretty sure Hougaard should be fit for the Newcastle game
Have we given up on him playing in the position he was presumably signed to play in?
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I have worries about the scrum. Our pens seem to be all LH side. I think when Gabby and Hislop are in tandem we invariably are under the pump. I have not seen Martinez fully, so there us that, but West may well be with England, we could struggle there even with the monster good signing we have made at TH. I expect improvement, but nit miracles, and this year we have done well at times anyway.
At ten I don't quite see the Cipriani Jacob comparison holding water. Ostensibly they are prone to brain farts and have a bit more variation in their kicking stats than we would like. However, Danny could put 80 sublime mins in, Jacob can't and we should remember Danny was full back in the 07 final if my memory served. He had a big game mentality. I don't recall Danny missing touch, Nick Robinson yes,not Danny. His moments of madness tended to be charge down kicks or attempting to run when he should not, and actually a lot of the latter ended up with us under the sticks at their end. If Jacob was like him at 24 we would be looking for Walder type back up and ve golden . Instead we have a far less consistent performer who has Cipriani-esque moments.
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There's Ben Harris at loose head too
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It seems clear to me that Martinez when fit will be our LH. He’s already played LH for Argentina.
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It seems clear to me that Martinez when fit will be our LH. He’s already played LH for Argentina.
Rather than Tom West??
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I think they were replying to my worries if West is away, as I feel he might be. I forgot about BH, to be honest. Hislop concerns me a little, seems to take that step to the left a lot. Still I am not an expert to say the least.
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Tom West is a great LH, already almost at International level, and is not yet even in his prime.
Martinez is at International level now. And he’s young as well, so should keep getting better too.
Can’t wait to see the ‘new’ Wasps front row in action next season!
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Agree - our front row should give us that solidity to not going backwards in the set piece. I fancy that Frosty could be our #1 hooker with West/Martinez and Koch/Alo either side of him.
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Tom West is a great LH, already almost at International level, and is not yet even in his prime.
Martinez is at International level now. And he’s young as well, so should keep getting better too.
Can’t wait to see the ‘new’ Wasps front row in action next season!
I think West will be with England very,very soon.
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It seems clear to me that Martinez when fit will be our LH. He’s already played LH for Argentina.
And JTA had played in the front row for the All Blacks. He's far from our first choice scrummager at TH.
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It seems clear to me that Martinez when fit will be our LH. He’s already played LH for Argentina.
And JTA had played in the front row for the All Blacks. He's far from our first choice scrummager at TH.
I like Jeff but I do feel the need to flesh out your line a bit, VV. JTA has only 1 cap for the ABs and that was against Japan nearly 10 years ago.
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JTA is a real character, you gotta love his spirit! He’s blessed with world class soft hands and a gifted ability to offload at the right time. So remarkable in the loose.
However, it’s obvious he’s been a penalty machine as a prop and this has often knocked the stuffing out of our momentum in a game. Reckon he has been working really hard on his scrummaging as he’s improved a lot since he’s been here but he’s still giving away too many costly penalties.
Back in the day, I was lucky enough to hv played with and against a raft of International props - with Fran Cotton probably the pick of the bunch. Although the skills a prop needs now in the Premiership are greater than in those days, first and foremost you’ve got to be able to scrimmage.
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I like Jeff but I do feel the need to flesh out your line a bit, VV. JTA has only 1 cap for the ABs and that was against Japan nearly 10 years ago.
I think he's a valuable player to have in the team, he brings an awful lot to the squad and we'd be poorer without him., But Scrummaging has proven not to be his strong point. But as to caps, Martinez has what? 3 caps for Argentina?
I'd probably say you get more as a player from being part of the ABs set-up than you do the Pumas. But my point still stands. Being capped internationally does not make you the best choice for your club. Would you drop Dobby for Ben Youngs? Even out of form as he is now?
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I like Jeff but I do feel the need to flesh out your line a bit, VV. JTA has only 1 cap for the ABs and that was against Japan nearly 10 years ago.
I think he's a valuable player to have in the team, he brings an awful lot to the squad and we'd be poorer without him., But Scrummaging has proven not to be his strong point. But as to caps, Martinez has what? 3 caps for Argentina?
I'd probably say you get more as a player from being part of the ABs set-up than you do the Pumas. But my point still stands. Being capped internationally does not make you the best choice for your club. Would you drop Dobby for Ben Youngs? Even out of form as he is now?
That's unfair 😆 I wouldn't drop anyone for Ben Youngs.
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I know what people are saying about JTA but as a prop, if you struggle at scrum time, it doesn’t really matter what other skills you have. I still think we’ll see Ryan added to our TH stock.
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At ten I don't quite see the Cipriani Jacob comparison holding water. Ostensibly they are prone to brain farts and have a bit more variation in their kicking stats than we would like. However, Danny could put 80 sublime mins in, Jacob can't and we should remember Danny was full back in the 07 final if my memory served. He had a big game mentality. I don't recall Danny missing touch, Nick Robinson yes,not Danny. His moments of madness tended to be charge down kicks or attempting to run when he should not, and actually a lot of the latter ended up with us under the sticks at their end. If Jacob was like him at 24 we would be looking for Walder type back up and ve golden . Instead we have a far less consistent performer who has Cipriani-esque moments.
Totally agree with this. Cipriani was sublime and could run a game - he was capable of seeing things other 10’s couldn’t and created space and gaps for others to benefit from. Wingers saw a lot more of the ball when he was playing as a result and tended to top the try scoring tables too. He would have been a great but I fear the appalling injury he picked all those years back messed with his head. After that his defence was poor as was his kicking from hand in our own 22. His kicking from the tee seemed to drop away too.
Umaga is a pale shadow of Cipriani. I’ve never seen him take a side apart and run a game. He looked pretty good at 15 at Bristol but that was in comparison to Atkinson who has some development to go. Unlike Cipriani I think he lacks a good rugby brain and the personality to stamp himself on a side. His tackling is pathetic and he’s too casual - dropping the ball for the try at Saints is inexcusable and it’s fortunate the TMO was asleep. I think over 80 mins his game is below par for what you’d expect from a Premiership 10, and for every piece of excellence you’ll get three pieces of dross.
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Whilst not a fan, I really don't get this constant Ben Youngs bashing. If you are of international quality, the thing that determines the length of your career is your ability to make the right decision every time.
If you critically watch an in form Dan Robson, you will see that he makes more mistakes than Ben Youngs.
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Re Jacob's 'try', Wayne Barnes had turned and was running back to the 50m line before the ball had been dropped
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Wasps players need to adopt the try scoring process of rugby league players where they fall over the line with the ball securely tucked against their body.
Our coaches should stop players like Jacob, Paolo, Zac and Bass lazily attempting to place the ball down with one hand.
Jacob was very lucky on Sunday.
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Indeed, you would of thought Wasps players would of learned a lesson from when Beale dropped the ball over the line against Leinster a few years ago
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Seem to remember WLR doing one as well!
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Not just Wasps though, sometimes the oppo return the favour!
Away at Irish at the Mad Stad several years ago, we were already well beaten , and I think it was Leguizamon clean through and went for the big swallow dive over the line with no-one near him, only to drop the ball.
Then of course there's Sam Vesty at Bath in 2012. Should've scored, but slowed casually as he approached the line and Varndell got to him in time, denying him the try and securing Wasps a LBP that ultimately helped us stay up that season.
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Not just Wasps though, sometimes the oppo return the favour!
Away at Irish at the Mad Stad several years ago, we were already well beaten , and I think it was Leguizamon clean through and went for the big swallow dive over the line with no-one near him, only to drop the ball.
Then of course there's Sam Vesty at Bath in 2012. Should've scored, but slowed casually as he approached the line and Varndell got to him in time, denying him the try and securing Wasps a LBP that ultimately helped us stay up that season.
Yes I think it was Legiuzoman, I was there for that match.
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Dear old Freddie Burns….2018.
https://youtu.be/QGJOJtlvsrc
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Not just Wasps though, sometimes the oppo return the favour!
Away at Irish at the Mad Stad several years ago, we were already well beaten , and I think it was Leguizamon clean through and went for the big swallow dive over the line with no-one near him, only to drop the ball.
Then of course there's Sam Vesty at Bath in 2012. Should've scored, but slowed casually as he approached the line and Varndell got to him in time, denying him the try and securing Wasps a LBP that ultimately helped us stay up that season.
Yes I think it was Legiuzoman, I was there for that match.
Same here. It was right in front of me and I seem to remember the ball bounced and hit him on the way back up as he was coming down out of his dive ;D