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Messages - jamestaylor002

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Saracens
« on: May 30, 2024, 02:59:26 PM »

Saracens? work hard, play hard culture is much lauded, but now feels tainted

Insider adamant that despite Billy Vunipola?s conviction, the team bonding sessions have fuelled their era of unprecedented success
Ben Coles, Rugby Reporter 8 May 2024 ? 6:57am


During an interview last week following his arrest after a drunken disagreement in a Majorcan bar, the Saracens No 8 Billy Vunipola, clearly remorseful for his actions after being tasered twice at half four in the morning by Spanish police, made the following remarks during a lengthy apology. ?I caused a huge amount of embarrassment and put a spotlight on the club when they were trying to do something nice for us... I ruined it for myself and for everyone else.?

Those comments help convey how important Saracens? team socials are to their players, aware that a negative spotlight was now shining on their mid-season trips abroad with the positive benefits pushed to one side.

Twice each season ? once during the campaign and another during the off-season ? the Saracens squad have gone abroad for similar trips, seen as valuable chances to bond off the field.

To be clear, Vunipola had splintered off from the rest of the group and was accompanied by one other player, prop Marco Riccioni. Based on the account provided by the owner of the Epic bar in Palma, Riccioni conducted himself impeccably and tried to assist as much as he could, albeit to no avail. Vunipola, drinking for the first time in months and continually refusing to put his shirt back on, was tasered twice and then arrested, sedated, bailed, fined by a court and released with a suspended four-month prison sentence.


Building a strong culture has been an integral part of Saracens? rise to the top over the past two decades, from the creation of the Wolfpack defence to the introduction of the Tiki Tonga celebration, around the same time of the first Saracens trip to Cape Town all the way back in 2009, which was markedly different to how Vunipola?s night finished.

The squad trained, did some community work building houses in a township and, yes, had some nights out. As the team became more successful in the early 2010s, the time available to make those trips happen decreased and they instead became mid-season events; finding weekends in the schedule, or Sunday-Monday trips if the squad had played on a Saturday.
?You get to know them on a deeper level?

?They became more like blowouts,? as one source who has been part of previous trips put it to Telegraph Sport, before adding that the ethos from the original idea to Cape Town remained the same. ?The basic principle was that you spend time together away from your families, your worries, just the boys together. You have some drinks, it does relax people, you become closer and more connected. You understand their motivations, what inspires them, anything that goes on in their family life ? you get to know them on a deeper level.?

Players would be given conversation cards which had to be kept on them at all times; some light-hearted, some deeper, from what superhero they would be to their greatest fear. There would be group lunches with other players they did not know as well, spending time with younger players in the squad but also the club?s coaching staff.

The source adds: ?If you have that increase in motivation and deeper respect for each other, that brotherhood, then in those toughest moments you will fight for that person even more. That?s the difference between winning and losing the biggest moments.?

Since the trips were first introduced, Saracens? players and management have been to around 20 locations. There has been skiing in Verbier (without much skiing), a music festival in Chicago, spending 36 hours in Barcelona, time training in Florida with the Miami Dolphins.

When the England head coach Steve Borthwick was Saracens captain he was due to attend the 2010 Heineken Cup launch in Cardiff, only to pull out at the last minute to attend what was described by Saracens at the time as an ?important squad meeting?. In Munich. At Oktoberfest. Saracens were fined ?4,240 by tournament organisers; money well spent, they would argue, given that led by Borthwick they went on to win the Premiership title for the first time the following summer.

In the ensuing 15 years since that first squad trip up Table Mountain, Saracens have won more trophies than any other English club with six league titles (having made a further three finals), and three European Cups in the space of four years. When the trips have gone well, which they have almost all of the time, they appear to be a resounding success.
?Usually it is self-policed?

The source added: ?Obviously, there?s been incidents. Of course, there have been times when people have gone too far, but usually, touch wood, it is self-policed ? the boys get the boys home. The golden rule we say on the trips is to look after each other and make sure we get home OK, have each other?s backs.? Hence the sight of Riccioni on the bar?s CCTV, having done what he could, watching Vunipola?s arrest unfold.

The club?s relationship historically with alcohol had been viewed in a positive light ? think Alex Goode?s multi-day session after Saracens? European Cup triumph in 2019, still in his full kit by Monday evening. It is therefore unfortunate timing, to say the least, that Vunipola?s arrest for disobedience and assaulting a police officer comes a year after Kapeli Pifeleti, the Saracens hooker, plead guilty to assaulting someone on a night out in Clapham, resulting in a fine from the courts and a formal warning from the club.

Vunipola?s arrest has been swiftly dealt with and was obviously serious ? give he was tasered twice by police officers ? although it pales in comparison with the 2015 incident involving a fire extinguisher in Budapest which ended up finishing the career of the club?s flanker, Matt Hankin, after a drinking game went too far. Wearing a metal helmet, Hankin received a ?tap on the head?, according to the High Court judgment, from the fire extinguisher delivered by another player and suffered a concussion. He was erroneously cleared to return to play ahead of schedule, diagnosed with sinusitis, before suffering another concussion and being forced to retire. Hankin went on to sue the team-mate who instigated the original concussion, Richard Barrington, the club?s doctor who cleared him, Ademola Adejuwon, and Saracens for ?3.15m. The case was settled out of court, with Barrington and Adejuwon paying damages.

?It was a sad tale about someone?s career. Now, that is one black mark, which isn?t really related to a trip, I would say, because [the issue] was what happened when he got back,? the source adds. ?Yeah, there are times where people might have a fall or stuff like that, but generally no injuries, no issues. The boys appreciate that we?re very lucky to go on these trips. It is what people love doing, it?s really exciting and it?s fun. You do feel really connected.

?[Billy] was a public one, but there are certainly a lot more positives than negatives and players really believe in [the team socials]. It?s very hard to quantify, but they have a huge impact in terms of togetherness, knowing each other better, having fun together, feeling as though you are part of the whole group. Those players who are injured or not involved as much, they feel part of it and train harder, push the team harder, and the whole group moves as one altogether, which is so important.?

After Vunipola?s actions the team socials naturally feel a little tarnished, hence the No 8?s obvious contrition. It?s a feeling which will probably take many incident-free excursions to shift. However the purpose of them, and the ensuing success Saracens have had on the field, despite what happened in Majorca should not be overlooked.

The latest of Billy Vunipola's drunken antics is especially ironic given he supported Israel Folau's controversial Instagram post (the one that got him sacked by Rugby Australia), which the first category awaiting hell are "drunks"!!!

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Wasps update February 2024
« on: May 28, 2024, 06:43:23 PM »
I saw that mail come through and can't remember if I pledged or not... Reckon I still could now?

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Congratulations to Dobby and Elizabeth!
« on: November 06, 2023, 08:34:32 PM »
Not one for Twitter (I mean X, ooops) but, as I follow Dobby on LinkedIn, I found out some fantastic news.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/danrobson9_our-little-miracle-man-arrived-12-10-activity-7127344699744362496-s_ni?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Massie-Ferguson Speaks
« on: November 06, 2023, 06:21:07 PM »
All good points made, everyone.

To add onto the social media aspect, Leicester Tigers, the most recognisable club in the English game, hasn't even broken the 167,000 mark on "X" (Twitter). Saracens haven't managed 123,000. Quins are on 127,000.

To put that into context, as of July this year, the lowest number of "X" followers in the Premier League is 174,000 (Luton).

How can social media be such an important factor in rugby union when there are clubs in EFL League 1 with more followers than the top rugby clubs? This is a rhetorical question, of course hehe.

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Kent!
« on: October 23, 2023, 05:20:29 PM »
From the Council documents -

Wasps Rugby Football Club Proposal

When will the stadium be built?
Planning permission will first be needed. This is a matter for Wasps to consider.

How big is the proposed stadium?
24,000 to 28,000 seats.

What about transport issues in the area, the junction to the M25 is already busy?
Transport would be considered as part of the proposal, including new transport infrastructure, but
it?s too early to say what this could look like at this early stage.

Who owns Pedham Place Golf course?
The golf course is in private ownership and unfortunately we cannot share the details.

What is the planning status of Pedham Place?
The site is in the Green Belt and an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB), it was agreed to
be a ?broad location for future growth? in the 2019 iteration of the emerging Local Plan.

Thanks Neils, it'll be interesting to see what these transport links would look like. Won't be seeing anything any time soon though!

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Kent!
« on: October 23, 2023, 04:27:16 PM »
Positive news to hear of a long term plan for Wasps' resurrection and pleased to see that consideration has been given to Warriors.

From a purely selfish perspective, it's a shame that the move will take Wasps' to the "wrong" side of London for me. I think this will rule me out of regularly attending home games in the longer term - I will probably need to consider attending the local(ish) home games instead (for the purpose of clarity, it's not gone unnoticed that many London-based fans had similar journeys to the Midlands during the Coventry era).

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Jack pleads his case
« on: October 11, 2023, 04:59:18 PM »
I know as an Englishman Jack would love to play and deserves play for England but under the current shorted sighted setup I believe he is not one of the chosen ones, I believe he is better off staying in France and enjoying himself rather than hoping he might be picked for one of the lesser nations or if someone is injured.

+1

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: England
« on: October 09, 2023, 12:24:29 AM »
I think the RFU will only notice if there was a visible drop in attendances at Twickenham. I don't know if we will ever really see that.

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Eddie's Aus Crash and Burn.
« on: September 17, 2023, 06:58:22 PM »
Shame they couldn't knock those last 3 points over, to take the LBP away from Aus, but that doesn't take anything away from what was an incredible win.

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Jack not even on bench
« on: September 08, 2023, 05:18:28 PM »
But if you want to play Sarries/Tigers/Sale style, why would you pick players from Toulouse?
12 out of 15 are current or former players of those clubs.

I hadn't quite appreciated it was that heavy an influence!

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Baxter talks some sense
« on: September 08, 2023, 05:12:11 PM »
I'm always interested in the points of reference used by people when they talk about the Premiership being competitive because, other than the one-off competitive game or shock, there doesn't seem to be much else that would convince me otherwise that the Premiership is competitive.

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: The Future
« on: August 22, 2023, 08:46:13 AM »
Quote
For the RFU, it's about looking at the best way to make English rugby successful again in the longer term and limiting the influence of certain clubs (who shall remain nameless).

I don't want this to degenerate in to the usual bashing, our opinions and disgust are well known, but I have been thinking about the 2nd and higher order affects of the concentration, legally or illegally, of so much of a country's top talent in one team, especially when that team play an overcoached system that relies on power rather skill to overwhelm its opponents.

Players want to play for that team because they naturally want to be playing top tier rugby and winning trophies. That brings financial reward beyond just salaries and win bonuses if that is what motivates players. That in itself is a reason for players to play the system and obey the coaches, because they know they are easily replaced.
 
A pliant 2nd best player being better than a renegade best player being a possible result, with the 2nd best player looking better than he is because he's in a winning team and the best player not looking as good because he's playing for a struggling team and even getting more injuries because he's having to play more. This is what I mean by higher order effects.

As we've seen, this has also meant that England has had to rely on the English players from that club for the core of the team. That has led to importing that club's culture and playing style because that's what those players are comfortable with and to a certain extent forces the England head coaches to build on it.

This means that players from other clubs joining England have to fit in and be accepted by the core players and we've heard rumours of strife in the camp when other players don't fit in.  I wonder how much this affects moral? We're often told its high but who is going to rock the boat and say it isn't?

Eddie appears to have been comfortable with this arrangement but I wonder how much it affected the other coaches who've wanted to play a different style and maybe been blocked by these core players' inability or unwillingness to play a different style of rugby?

What we've witnessed over that past 6 or 7 years is an England team that can only grind out wins but when things aren't going well on the field have shown in a number of matches an inability to think and adapt to what's in front of them. But what about beating NZ in the semi final? Yes, great win but probably set us back again because the focus was on that one game and not all the rest of the bad performances.

One point I'm making here is that central contracts with the RFU directing where players play might not be the panacea some might hope if it leads to stagnant coaching because success comes easily at the club level.

The answer is still that we need a decent sized top tier league with teams being on more or less a level playing field when it comes to salary meaning coaches having to develop players and playing styles with the good and innovative ones coming out on top. Those teams need to be distributed around the country to spread the game eg players going in to clubs, coaching camps during school holidays and being seen as part of the community.

But what about Ireland? A much smaller place and player pool so four teams is realistically the most they can support and its easier for those players to get in to the community is my argument against going down to such a route or if they do perhaps 10 teams evenly distribute about the major population centres is the minimum.

In conclusion, a concentration of player/coaching power, no matter how it is achieved, is bad for the game in England.

The only thing I'd say about your response here BiND is that, for once, I'd actually managed to put my personal feelings on the subject of Tigers/Saracens et al to one side.

Everything else I agree with - the only reason I suggest that clubs may have more influence than other clubs is because I have my tin hat on and wonder how some players have managed to stay within the system. Some players have been able to perhaps hide behind a winning team but others may not have.

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: The Future
« on: August 22, 2023, 08:40:09 AM »
I agree with what you say, but to be somewhat pedantic:

Quote
However, for this to work it requires buy-in from everyone from the top of the RFU down to us supporters.
Your never going to get the buy-in of everyone because there are always winners and losers with change and the losers are generally incumbent, organised and vocal (the Seen). On the other hand the winners are generally unseen, often unknown and therefore unorganised.

This is where a much overused term is required: Leadership. Leadership isn't being appointed to senior management, getting a key to the executive toilet and claiming to be part of a leadership team. Its about having the vision and ability to communicate the needs for the change and the benefits but more importantly its having the moral strength and ability to make it happen against the organised resistance and bureaucratic inertia.

Sadly, the RFU has shown a distinct lack of leadership.

I wouldn't say you're pedantic, your response actually is what I was trying to say but perhaps very simplistically! I completely understand, and would expect, there to be some sort of resistance from areas of the game.

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: The Future
« on: August 21, 2023, 10:00:53 AM »
England couldn't do much worse than what they are doing at the moment so they might as well complete a comprehensive review of the way rugby is coached/played etc. and promote those up and coming players in a similar way to the French over the last few years.

However, for this to work it requires buy-in from everyone from the top of the RFU down to us supporters.

For the RFU, it's about looking at the best way to make English rugby successful again in the longer term and limiting the influence of certain clubs (who shall remain nameless).

It's also about understanding that results may not go our way instantly and England may experience a poor 6N or two, maybe a WC, with the promise that everything comes together at some point. Can the RFU accept that? Can supporters?

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I don't accept that people here don't acknowledge that mismanagement was a contributing factor in our demise but it does not tell the whole story.

I thought our business was diversifying quite nicely, as we had other branches other clubs didn't - the casino, the hotel (plus a second hotel that was touted). When Covid shuts all that down, its a recipe for disaster.

I understand London based fans weren't all pleased about the move to Coventry but, as no one wanted us in/around London I suppose we should've gone bankrupt sooner and that's the preferred option than moving to Coventry?

Back to the other clubs, it is difficult to have sympathy for clubs who were all to eager to see the book thrown at us for our troubles. There seemed to be no desire from anyone to offer a supporting hand. Instead, they threw us to the wolves with some to benefit from our best players next season (Joe L to Quins, Tom W to Saracens).

It's even more of a joke when the same clubs have now since asked for leniency when it comes to Covid payments (the leniency that wasn't afforded to us). It's clearly fine to throw a club under the bus as long as it's not you.

The point NWW was making, I believe, is relating to improving the management and product of professional rugby in England. Not necessarily whether Wasps benefit from this.

As a neutral, the quality of the Premiership is poor. Saracens have only missed 3 finals in the last 10+ seasons (2 of those were due to their so-called punishment) and have won the majority of them. Some one-off games have been good but what's the point of an exciting game when it doesn't mean anything?

The issue with keyboard warriors is that they're not all behind a keyboard. It's happened at games and other places away from the Internet.

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