Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Neils on October 17, 2019, 04:46:53 PM
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7580909/New-Premiership-season-begin-cloud-salary-cap-investigation-Saracens.html
The very strong smell of Fudge is starting to rise.
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Did we seriously expect anything else?
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Nope. Wray controls it all.
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Saracens responded to questions from Sportsmail in March by insisting that all co-investment and the house-sharing between Wray and players had been declared.
However, some weeks later Premiership Rugby (PRL) issued a statement announcing there would be a formal review into the evidence as they were not aware of all the co-investment arrangements 'between connected parties and players'.
Saracens blamed a 'minor internal oversight' for not having disclosed all the details and denied any wrongdoing, issuing a statement saying that 'co-investments are not part of the salary regulations'
So, basically, we provide more money to players (and only players for Sarries) than the salary cap allows, but it doesn't count because we say so.....
Ho hum...
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Well if they get away with it everyone else will start doing it too.
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Well if they get away with it everyone else will start doing it too.
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But not everyone can afford to do it so it becomes a two/or more level league.
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Well if they get away with it everyone else will start doing it too.
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But not everyone can afford to do it so it becomes a two/or more level league.
Exactly - The Salary Cap was partly introduced to stop clubs spending themselves into extinction. I'm guessing 80% of the clubs couldn't spend much more than they currently do (£7m - credits + marquee amount + other club wages and expenses). Only Bath and Bristol have the same sugar daddy finances but as yet they don't seem to be pursuing other ways to pay more wages outside of the salary cap (that we know of).
I only hope that the 12 other club owners stand by their view that the scheme Wray has used is a way of paying players more money outside the salary cap.
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BG: Might our owner or his businesses also fall into the sugar daddy category?
I assume co-investments are "OK" provided both parties have money to invest in the schemes. If it all comes from one, then that suggests a device outside the salary cap - which Premiership Rugby could/should/might/may (which word fits?!) decide is wrong.
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BG: Might our owner or his businesses also fall into the sugar daddy category?
I assume co-investments are "OK" provided both parties have money to invest in the schemes. If it all comes from one, then that suggests a device outside the salary cap - which Premiership Rugby could/should/might/may (which word fits?!) decide is wrong.
Our owner who is supposedly worth £50m or so, versus a billionaire and Wray worth hundreds of millions? I don’t think it’s quite the same league.
The issue whether both parties have money to invest in the schemes. The issue is that you cannot control this being a vehicle whereby in, 1, 3, or 5 years time (or however long), Nigel Wray sells his stake to Farrell or Billy etc... for £1, or relinquishes his shares to the other Party and effectively ‘donates’ them giving the player, or ex-player a payday or an asset worth hundreds of thousands.
Yes, investments may go up or down but there’s no suggestion that these are high-risk, unstable investments and every suggestion that it is low-risk stuff like property.
Therein lies the issue. How do PRL police such investments, or ensure that the players only gain from the share they originally put in and not disproportionately aka flouting the cap?
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Its clear that on other forums - discussing the opening of the Prem season, Sarries supporters are trying to suggest that its because Sarries are such good employers that players come to them
Well - that might be true - but a quick look at recent signings - probably near Lions starters (Daly, Williams) don't come to Sarries because of a love of plastic pitches and education opportunities......
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If you want to add fuel to the debate it's interesting to see the additions that have been put into the salary agreement for this season (agreed back in February so before any recent investigation)
Budget is unchanged at £6.4m plus credits
Additional clauses ...
A reference to section 1122 of the corporate tax act 2010 ... Which to my uneducated eyes seems to say that any company operated exclusively on behalf of an individual shall be considered to be that individual ... Does this suggest someone has been channelling funds to companies?
Clubs to assist accountants in a timely manner. Plus new clause about penalties for delays ... Does this suggest that someone has dragged their feet in order to allow their lawyers to massage any submissions to the accountants?
Clubs to provide full financial records of player benefit year including any 3rd party contributions to benefit years ... Has someone been boosting salaries?
Clubs to provide receipts for family immigration costs
Any payments or benefits which on the balance of probabilities should be considered as salary especially if it was agreed at the same time as a contract or exceeds market value of the service provided ... Does this suggest someone has been giving below market services when signing new players?
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That's all very interesting Nick
I believe that you would likely be correct in your understanding - especially re "balance of probabilities" which is a much lower level of evidence required than would be needed by criminal law!
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A reference to section 1122 of the corporate tax act 2010 ... Which to my uneducated eyes seems to say that any company operated exclusively on behalf of an individual shall be considered to be that individual ... Does this suggest someone has been channelling funds to companies?
Clubs to provide full financial records of player benefit year including any 3rd party contributions to benefit years ... Has someone been boosting salaries?
To the first point - I think this means that PRL will view any LTD company where the player is a director and that it appears that there are no employees or outgoings other than paying the director a wage or end of year dividends will not been seen as a Ltd company but as a single sole trader.
This only becomes relevant if income being paid into the LTD company is somehow related back to Sarries or associates related to Sarries.
There's nothing wrong with players earning addtional money outside of the Sarries wage (endorsements, book sales, England appearance money).
The 2nd point seems to be yet again missing the crux of the issue at hand.
The money that might be generated by the joint venture companies won't appear on the books of Sarries so aren't considered to be a company "benefit".
These are ventures between the player and Wray personally (or one of his business partners)... so the bigger question is whether the link between the player and the club, the club and Wray, and then Wray to the player constitutes a benefit that should come within the salary cap. In my view, yes.
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Is player sponsorship outside the salary cap?
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Must be or we wouldn't be doing it.
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Is player sponsorship outside the salary cap?
If its personal sponsorhsip.. i.e the money or more likely goods/service goes directly from the sponsor to the player then it will be outside the salary cap.. if its money/goods/services as a result of a link to the club then I think that's part of the salary cap.
So if a player was to be given the use of a Merc via a local dealership for 24 months then that monetary value would be outside the cap.. but if they received a Land Rover, one of the clubs sponsors, you would assume that was a deal linked to the club/JLR and would be part of the cap.
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Watch this space.
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Pretty sure Sarries have enough room for Jack Willis
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Pretty sure Sarries have enough room for Jack Willis
Like every other brilliant player I'm sure he'd jump at the opportunity to earn less money.
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Some really interesting stuff going around at the Ricoh today. Heard from several sources. Hope it's true. Not long to wait I believe.
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Don't be such a tease, Heathen :)
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Come on Heathen, what are the rumblings you have heard? Or if not you, then anyone else heard the rumours being mentioned above and can ellaborate as to what the conjecture is?
WW
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It’s no secret that most clubs want this loophole closed due to the impact it could have on player wages in the future (huge inflation). The only difficulty is that Sarries don’t think they’ve done anything wrong and feel like they don’t deserve punishment.
I believe the independent reviewers will judge Saracens to be not guilty, but will advise that the loophole be closed ‘to maintain fair competition’.
I think Saracens deserve some sort of punishment but even with what I’ve said above, we could see a lot of player moves at the end of the season as their base wages don’t seem to be high enough
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I think Saracens deserve some sort of punishment but even with what I’ve said above, we could see a lot of player moves at the end of the season as their base wages don’t seem to be high enough
Me too, as its never a good look to condone getting round the rules others are (we believe) complying with
But I can't see how you would pay for all those RWC players.....let alone the near internationals such as Loz and Goode etc
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I know I'm going to be the bad guy by saying this but if Sarries are deemed to have done nothing illegal then they can't suffer any sanction. Morally, using the loophole puts others at a disadvantage but nothing illegal has been done (apparently according to the judges panel). The way I see it, the only way that Sarries will be affected this season is if the loophole was closed with immediate effect. I.e Sarries will not be able to pay the players without 'officially' breaking the salary cap.
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I think the key problem, least for a lay person like myself, is if the legality is the issue or if its the status of any money/benefits received by Sarries players. As if the monies received are deemed to fall within earnings provided by Sarries/Sarries connected persons and isn't player sponsorship, then there could be a case to answer
If they are deemed in the clear - then closing such a loop hole would cause some interesting outcomes!
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I know I'm going to be the bad guy by saying this but if Sarries are deemed to have done nothing illegal then they can't suffer any sanction. Morally, using the loophole puts others at a disadvantage but nothing illegal has been done (apparently according to the judges panel). The way I see it, the only way that Sarries will be affected this season is if the loophole was closed with immediate effect. I.e Sarries will not be able to pay the players without 'officially' breaking the salary cap.
I think you’re 100% correct, think it’s most likely that the loophole will be closed at the end of the season. Issue will be that their actual contracts will be miserly without the external businesses so players may feel underpaid
On a side note, Leeds United and spygate was not illegal or broke the rules in any way- but the club was fined £200k for ‘going against the spirit of the game’.
Saracens could be punished under the same phrasing
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I know I'm going to be the bad guy by saying this but if Sarries are deemed to have done nothing illegal then they can't suffer any sanction. Morally, using the loophole puts others at a disadvantage but nothing illegal has been done (apparently according to the judges panel). The way I see it, the only way that Sarries will be affected this season is if the loophole was closed with immediate effect. I.e Sarries will not be able to pay the players without 'officially' breaking the salary cap.
I think you’re 100% correct, think it’s most likely that the loophole will be closed at the end of the season. Issue will be that their actual contracts will be miserly without the external businesses so players may feel underpaid
On a side note, Leeds United and spygate was not illegal or broke the rules in any way- but the club was fined £200k for ‘going against the spirit of the game’.
Saracens could be punished under the same phrasing
Ahhh I didn't realise a club could be fined for going against the spirit of the game. I which case if the champions are deemed to be going against the spirit of the game some fine might well be allocated to them (and any other team that may have used the loophole). In any case the loophole should be closed regardless of the outcome of the hearing.
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Has anyone been able to demonstrate that any of the players have received any payment?
They might have been able to raise finance that they could not have done without co-investors, so it might be practicable to count any income they earn as something they would not have received without said investment, but have any of them actually been given any money that could be counted against the salary cap?
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I know I'm going to be the bad guy by saying this but if Sarries are deemed to have done nothing illegal then they can't suffer any sanction. Morally, using the loophole puts others at a disadvantage but nothing illegal has been done (apparently according to the judges panel). The way I see it, the only way that Sarries will be affected this season is if the loophole was closed with immediate effect. I.e Sarries will not be able to pay the players without 'officially' breaking the salary cap.
I get the point you are making and I wonder if it is the reason for the hold up. But am I correct in thinking that when breaches were previously settled in private it was agreed any loop holes should be reported to the cap manager before being taken advantage of. Or something to that effect.
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It is a duty in the rules to report anything that could be a loophole, in 2.3 (a) (i)
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It is a duty in the rules to report anything that could be a loophole, in 2.3 (a) (i)
Perhaps Sarries read "report" as "exploit"? Easily done.
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HMRC have tightened the regulations and closed many of the loopholes relating to disguised remuneration.
I am sure that they are aware of these schemes and the PRL might want to consider what action, if any, is being taken by HMRC to assist them in their conclusions.
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Much as a find it difficult to believe that all is above board at Sarrries, I am still unclear as to where the remuneration is in these schemes (at least in the present).
If these are joint investments then the tax office will be happy so long as they get their tax on any profit. Only if ownership changes will there be a potential tax issue, then only if it is there is an undervalue sale.
For all the ifs and buts about what might happen later, what has actually happened (so far as currently available information goes) as of today that contravenes anything?
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As I understand it the rumoured loophole doesn't involve any payments to any players but rather it ensures the ex-players have access to a nice little nest-egg business portfolio when they retire. The taxman gets everything he expects as & when the assets aree liquidated several years hence so he's happy and the Saracens can claim they are merely doing the right thing in supporting players' preparations for a life outside rugby. In my opinion if this is what is found to have happened then it is a breach. Anything that incentives players to join one club over another should be considered salary and failure to describe the loophole in full to the administrators is a clear breach
My fear is that this will all get swept under the carpet. Rules will be tightened and the cap budget will be increased by another couple of million ... Which most clubs can't afford. If you set the cap at for example £10m what's the point of having any cap at all?
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Is not the problem that it is something that might happen, not something that has happened? The asset has not been liquidated and so for all anyone know when it is then the money might be divided in accordance with the investment.
Of course these might not be new and there might be some historical instances which can be shown to be a transfer of value.
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I cant see anything being announced while England are still in RWC as any bad news could be deemed as detrimental to their progression. Seeing as so many England players are Saracens. Hopefully therefore a surprise could be in the offing???
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I cant see anything being announced while England are still in RWC as any bad news could be deemed as detrimental to their progression. Seeing as so many England players are Saracens. Hopefully therefore a surprise could be in the offing???
Are you planning a trip again.. the 2 alsations at the club are missing you!
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I am but not sure when as very busy at mo
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Latest on the investigation:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7597991/Premiership-Rugby-delay-Saracens-salary-cap-ruling-avoid-derailing-Englands-World-Cup-bid.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7597991/Premiership-Rugby-delay-Saracens-salary-cap-ruling-avoid-derailing-Englands-World-Cup-bid.html)
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Perhaps I am reading too much into the delay but I am thinking that the news is not so good for Saracens and therefore will impact the demeanour of their players still involved in RWC. Either way if I were a Saracens player who was potentially within the parameters that are under discussion then I would be mightily distracted by this, no one likes an uncertain wait, let's hope they are mentally tougher than me.
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There are eight Saracens players in the England squad in Japan including captain Owen Farrell, and any sanction given to the club could have a significant impact on their careers.
If Saracens are found guilty they will almost certainly be forced to cut their budget, in addition to potentially being given a points deduction of up to 35 points, which could lead to several players needing to look for new employers.
Mmmmmmm!!!!!!
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Can but hope!
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They'd have to go somewhere with no salary cap, I doubt any of the GP clubs have space at the moment. Will there be an Irish club name Dublin Sarries, and with "interesting" player exchange arrangements with a UK club??
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Perhaps I am reading too much into the delay but I am thinking that the news is not so good for Saracens and therefore will impact the demeanour of their players still involved in RWC. Either way if I were a Saracens player who was potentially within the parameters that are under discussion then I would be mightily distracted by this, no one likes an uncertain wait, let's hope they are mentally tougher than me.
I drew the very same conclusion. Fingers crossed that justice will be served this time around.
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Perhaps I am reading too much into the delay but I am thinking that the news is not so good for Saracens and therefore will impact the demeanour of their players still involved in RWC. Either way if I were a Saracens player who was potentially within the parameters that are under discussion then I would be mightily distracted by this, no one likes an uncertain wait, let's hope they are mentally tougher than me.
I drew the very same conclusion. Fingers crossed that justice will be served this time around.
Indeed read it this morning and thought oops something is going to rock the boat - let's bloody well hope so.
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Perhaps I am reading too much into the delay but I am thinking that the news is not so good for Saracens and therefore will impact the demeanour of their players still involved in RWC. Either way if I were a Saracens player who was potentially within the parameters that are under discussion then I would be mightily distracted by this, no one likes an uncertain wait, let's hope they are mentally tougher than me.
I drew the very same conclusion. Fingers crossed that justice will be served this time around.
I'm reading it the same way. If there was no case to answer an announcement would have been made . The fact that PRL have felt the need (press and other clubs and supporters beginning to feel a whitewash is coming) to say that a ruling has been makes me think Sarries have been "pinged".
The question is - what's the punishment? A fine simply won't cut it.
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There are eight Saracens players in the England squad in Japan including captain Owen Farrell, and any sanction given to the club could have a significant impact on their careers.
If Saracens are found guilty they will almost certainly be forced to cut their budget, in addition to potentially being given a points deduction of up to 35 points, which could lead to several players needing to look for new employers.
Mmmmmmm!!!!!!
Not forgetting Liam Williams in the Welsh squad. Now there's a thought we could do with a 15 on the bench ;-)
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I actually agree with delaying any announcement, though not sure about announcing said delay... just gets tongues wagging and could easily distract Eng contingent anyway... Let's hope whatever sanction (if any) fits the crime (assuming they have been adjudged to have committed one!).
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There's no mention of this on the Sorries' Sports Network site today. I should be surprised, but given the state of denial they've all been in over the last few years, I'm really not surprised at all.
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Well it is only a story at the moment- the important fact is the punishment, of which we know nothing. I just hope we don't get a whitewash.
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Well it is only a story at the moment- the important fact is the punishment, of which we know nothing. I just hope we don't get a whitewash.
;D
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Well it is only a story at the moment- the important fact is the punishment, of which we know nothing. I just hope we don't get a whitewash.
Of course, but if similar stories were circulating about our club, I imagine it would be a very hot topic on here and the DW page. I find it very curious that they are choosing to ignore it. I've not checked the other SN pages, but I imagine there is some discussion on there from other team's fans.
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And now one of them has woken up: https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s104.htm?107,16655409
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I love the way they have focussed on the The Daily Fail as the problem. I also love how they list themselves alongside the 'Sussexes' as specific targets. Talk about delusions of grandeur... they think they are Rugby Royalty!!! Last time I looked only Gloucester could claim that!!
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What about the Quins on the back of Will Carling?
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Was Will on his back? :)
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Not sure we ever got to see photos
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I love the way they have focussed on the The Daily Fail as the problem. I also love how they list themselves alongside the 'Sussexes' as specific targets. Talk about delusions of grandeur... they think they are Rugby Royalty!!! Last time I looked only Gloucester could claim that!!
Delusional all round I feel, talk about burying your head in the sand. Everyone else is suspicious, but they think the sums add up and they all just want to play for less wages as Sarries are such a great club.....
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Understandably the Sarries supporters are dissmissive of the allegations (investigation and ruling). I only read a couple of online newpapers but it is noticeable that its not being covered by other outlets but that might be because established rugby correspondents are nervous about poking their head above the parapet. They rely on having close relations with players, clubs, PRL and the RFU so they won't want to ruffle feathers for fear of losing those cosy relationships.
Most will be reporting on the WC, which is what their bosses will be paying them to write about.
Don't forget that rugby is a fairly niche market when it comes to the press. Even in the football off-season, football will get 90% more press coverage than rugby.
We have no idea what the ruling will be but either way, I don't think it will change the perception of the other 12 PRL clubs.. the owners, the DoR's and us.. the supporters who have questioned how Sarries can afford to maintain the squad they have.
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Owen Slot has reported in the past as has the rugby paper but probably as you say laying low for the moment (or are all reporters in Japan). The Mail has a very obvious link/leak with the donkeys from the almost south west (as my Cornish friends refer to them) and is being fed regular Owners meeting updates - also note it is not Chris Foy as the named reporter.
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A post from the Sarries SN page:
"I do think there is something ironic about Premiership Rugby deferring giving us a beating because they don't want to derail England's WC bid. A WC bid that is only on track because of the players that Saracens brought through the academy and turned into world beaters - the very same players that Premiership Rugby don't want us to pay market value for.
So they are now admitting that those players are worth a fortune, but PR are stopping them paying the top whack for them?? Irony, arrogance, choose your favourite adjective........
I'd like to comment on their thread, but I honestly get too wound up. Well done VV for remaining composed enough to do so though.
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I'd like to comment on their thread, but I honestly get too wound up. Well done VV for remaining composed enough to do so though.
I suspect I'll come to regret it.
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I'd like to comment on their thread, but I honestly get too wound up. Well done VV for remaining composed enough to do so though.
I suspect I'll come to regret it.
;D ;D ;D
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They remain in a big river in Egypt over this, i met a supporter in Japan who trots out all this academy shit .......
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Mako Vunipola, Billy Vunipola, Elliott Daly, Alex Lozowski, Liam Williams, Rhys Carre, Will Skelton ... All grateful to the ex-academy players for so generously not being paid market rates so Sarries can afford to pay them enough to transfer
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A nod and wink on the Eggchasers Podcast this week as JB suggested he knows of the Statement that is ready to go and what it’ll say and for Sarries fans to enjoy the World Cup as it’ll be an interesting few weeks after ahead after that.
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Just because its recommended that Sarries broke the salary cap, it doesn't mean Sarries will not argue the case. In their eyes they have done nothing wrong.
Pretty confident Sarries will say 'Don't care what you say, speak to my very expensive lawyer, we've done nothing wrong'.
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In their eyes they have done nothing wrong.
IMO they'll think "We're too rich and clever to be caught doing something wrong"
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Article in TRP today. Says nothing new just that the decision is withheld until after next weekend.
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A nod and wink on the Eggchasers Podcast this week as JB suggested he knows of the Statement that is ready to go and what it’ll say and for Sarries fans to enjoy the World Cup as it’ll be an interesting few weeks after ahead after that.
;) ;)
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According to the commentator at the Tigers-Sarries game Sarries have twenty internationals away and still have six in today's team.
Call me a cynic...
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According to the commentator at the Tigers-Sarries game Sarries have twenty internationals away and still have six in today's team.
Call me a cynic...
This tweet posted 1 minute before England game kicked off yesterday.........
https://twitter.com/Saracens/status/1188002298196381698?s=19
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I don't want to throw anyone under the bus but ..
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Sorry I do!
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Sorry I do!
And me!!!
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Sorry I do!
And me!!!
+1
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Are they working in the theory that if he's no longer a director he is no longer technically a connected party under the salary cap rules and can therefore establish financial links with players outside the cap?
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Are they working in the theory that if he's no longer a director he is no longer technically a connected party under the salary cap rules and can therefore establish financial links with players outside the cap?
I think the finance director and the salary cap manager (one of which is a good friend of Wray, worth £350m) have left Sarries in the last month or so but I thought a lot of the Ltd companies set up had Wray as a co-director?
That being said I wonder if the manager/director worth £350m also re-routed his own personal wealth to players as well in similar deals.
Well find out in about a weeks time.
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Wonder when this will surface. Hopefully soon.
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Wonder when this will surface. Hopefully soon.
Wed or Thurs I think
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Sarries board saying meeting is Monday of all parties where disclosure will be made. Obviously they are to be found not guilty of anything whatsoever anytime in the past or future. Squeaky clean them.
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Perhaps time for a Sarries fixture boycott threat from the other Teams if nothing done?
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As I see it, the club can be penalised, but the players can't be
I don't the club can be forced to release players as they're all in contract.
They probably also can't reduce any of their wages as again they'll all be in contract.
I suppose they could potentially be forced to release players, and pay their contract off, but that seems unlikely.
Any player released may not be able to pick up another club given that few will have salary cap space.
It'll be an interesting judgement
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My fear is that like last time it will all be swept under the carpet avoid both an expensive legal battle and the reputational damage to the league of admitting the champions cheated.
My bet is that the announcement will be Sarries did not breach the cap but a whole new section will be added to the rules to "clarify" what's not allowed. The big worry is that they will then do what they did last time and increase the cap by a few million thus allowing Sarries to pay their players the full market rate and all but destroying the cap. What's the point of having a cap that only 1 or 2 clubs can afford to spend?
I agree it would be difficult if player contracts had to be honoured but of course we're talking about payments / business investments outside contracts. In theory Sarries could be forced to wrap up all the off-field deals leaving the players locked into their playing contracts on half wages. Then we'll see what the Sarries' team spirit is really like!
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As I see it, the club can be penalised, but the players can't be
I don't the club can be forced to release players as they're all in contract.
They probably also can't reduce any of their wages as again they'll all be in contract.
I suppose they could potentially be forced to release players, and pay their contract off, but that seems unlikely.
Any player released may not be able to pick up another club given that few will have salary cap space.
It'll be an interesting judgement
Maybe some players will be locked out? The club obliged to pay them, but not allowed to play them. To give them game time, the club could be forced to loan them, for free?
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Personally I think any fudge will ruin the premiership as a competition for a long long time.
Lets not forget they have been caught before, they were let off and instead of obeying the rules they set their accountants to work to find out other inventive ways they may get away with paying their squad more than everyone else does.
I can only hope for a large fine, maximum point deduction and a stop to any additional payments which are deemed to be outside the cap. Unfortunately I think they will raise the cap and close the loop hole.
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I remember reading that the previous part owners from SA were worried that things weren't being done properly.
The daughter of the owner raised questions at a board meeting.. and wasn't given assurances .. mysteriousy.. the SA owners quickly asked Wray to buy their shares.
I don't begrudge any club having sugar daddies but the rules are in place to protect the league.
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https://www.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-salary-acing-potential-35-point-reduction-and-a-real-threat-of-relegation
RugbyPass understands that the 12 other Premiership Rugby Limited clubs (including Championship outfit Newcastle Falcons) are keen to stick the boot into Saracens as they feel the integrity of the competition is at stake. Saracens are furious at the impending punishment, as they maintain that they’ve not breached salary cap rules.
Well lets hope so....
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