Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: hopwood on February 19, 2022, 04:53:55 PM
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Don’t panic.
Don’t overreact. A bonus point is alright.
Perspective. We’ve won 4 out of the last 6 against quality opposition.
We’ve found ways to win from poor positions.
Today, too many combinations broke down.
We struggled with gameplan and control.
We never really got runners coming from deep, at least until the 2nd half with Jacob cutting some good lines.
A few of our key players has an off day. It happens.
Dan Robson especially.
But he’s had more great games than bad ones.
Joe Marler was absolutely exceptional. And our scrum suffered. There aren’t too many props as good as him.
Our lineout was actually very good. Just not our maul.
Porter was so much better for the game when he came on.
We play so much better when the game breaks up and is unstructured.
Nice to see Jack back.
Tom too.
We will only get better from this game.
Lessons will be learnt.
Young players will grow and become wiser.
And as fans, we need to be patient.
A few months ago, we were hanging out at the bottom of the pile.
Now, we’re fighting to be considered a top side.
We’re not far off.
We just need some consistency in selection and a cohesive gameplan.
Our best players need to find harmony in the way we play.
We need to speed things up a notch.
Keep the faith.
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Agreed.
Your point on consistency is correct but our problem is continuing injuries.
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The third quarter performance was awful and lost us the game but we showed a bit more energy in the last few minutes.
Tom Willis and Ryan Mills stood out for me. Jack got better the longer he was on.
Fifita didn't do enough for me. Robson was lethargic - this happened the last time he had a long absence - but he will get better with more game time.
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Losing bonus point deserved.
Midfield channels key to Quins win.
Lose the set piece lose the game.
Quins were full value for their win today. We left ourselves too much to do, however unlike the last 2 rounds great escapes, we could not replicate that. Robbo had a rare off day which lost us position and possession which Quins duly punished us for. The front row got a lesson on where they need to be to be pushing for the title before the Quins starting front row went off. We just tried to force things too much when control was needed. We also have to remember that injuries over such a long period of time meant our midfield has not had time to gel. You can lose games through the 12-13 channel, and today proved as such. I am however not too disheartened, to come back from 19 points down to get a LBP away from home is a pleasing element.
I still feel though that top 4 is beyond us this term, top 6 is the return we need and to be in the top level European competition net season. We have to go all out for this, and the league is so tight. Away next week to Bristol is a must win.
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Joe Marler was absolutely exceptional. And our scrum suffered. There aren’t too many props as good as him.
I really don't agree with you on Marler's apparent superiority. He's a poseur and is a master of kidology. He cons people particularly officials, none of whom have much of a clue about the scrum.
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Lose the set piece lose the game.
Agreed, but we also lost the contest in the ruck, and what ball did get to the foot of our side, Robson either kicked away, or dallied too long before shipping it to Atkinson, who faced a really fast line speed since they had the time to get organised.
This was our main difference, plus our back row did not get across to shore up the midfield, but theirs did.
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A good point for me. Important we took something from it. Game time for Willis x 2 and Mills. Our first up props matched two of the best in the league and our line out was good. Lacked some fluency going forward and made some mistakes but we take a point. I don’t think we’ll miss Fifita too much. Small things that need doing such as clearing out don’t happen consistently with him. Decision to be made at FB as Umaga is OK going forward - but that’s it. Defensively it creates an issue for us and I’d just like to see him and Atkinson rotate at 10. Great to see Jack Willis charging with the ball again and that coupled with a point makes it an ok day. Hope Hislop is not as bad as it looked.
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Yes disappointing and it sounds like we didn’t play well. I agree we need a bit of patients but we must also take advantage of teams in poor form like Bristol. So fingers crossed we get back to winning ways next week, have a week off and just try and stay in the top 6. Not sure we can do top 4, as we will most probably run out of games
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I thought it was a better performance than last week, against a much better side.
We gave the best attack in the league an inch and they took a mile, that was very disappointing. We've either got to improve our kicking or change tactics, we give too many opportunities for teams to run back at us and look what happens.
On the plus side the Willis brothers are back and both looked good. Ryan Mills looking sharper by the week and starting to show glimpses of the top class performer he was. Paulo starting to look his old self, with some good leg drives in contact as well as pace in the open. Spink growing in stature and confidence, it won't be long before he's owning that shirt if he continues to improve at this rate.
On the down side Dan's lack of form is a worry. He's got enough minutes under his belt since returning from injury and should be making better decisions as well as better kicks and passes. Jacob still making too many sloppy mistakes, although he's looking good with ball in hand and space in front.
Given the season we've had so far I'm not disappointed with that game.
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A minor criticism of CMK. He got in the way al least a couple of times and should have stopped the game and restarted rather than let the disrupted play continue.
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Lose the set piece lose the game.
Agreed, but we also lost the contest in the ruck, and what ball did get to the foot of our side, Robson either kicked away, or dallied too long before shipping it to Atkinson, who faced a really fast line speed since they had the time to get organised.
This was our main difference, plus our back row did not get across to shore up the midfield, but theirs did.
Agreed with all of this. Robbo was unusually lethargic, and as you say, slow ruck ball only gives the backs less time.
Communication and relationships, this is what we need to work on now. Consistency in selection will lead to a more cohesive and effective performance, and that is so key in rugby.
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Yes disappointing and it sounds like we didn’t play well. I agree we need a bit of patients but we must also take advantage of teams in poor form like Bristol. So fingers crossed we get back to winning ways next week, have a week off and just try and stay in the top 6. Not sure we can do top 4, as we will most probably run out of games
After Chiefs win tomorrow (I expect them to), we will be 8th. Pretty much top 8 is what we can hope for I think. Top 6 will need some luck. Top 4? Unlikely.
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We are now 7th and need Falcons to do us a favour tomorrow to stop slipping to 8th. However, depending on what happens tomorrow (Falcons v Exe) we are still only 4 points behind Irish who are currently 5th. Come on Budgies.
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With 5 of our last 8 games away from home we have to get more than losing bonus points away from home to have a chance of top 6.
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With 5 of our last 8 games away from home we have to get more than losing bonus points away from home to have a chance of top 6.
Agreed.
I was concerned with our selection in the backs. Quins cannot be given any space. I would have started with Dobby, Jimmy, Mills and Paolo as my 9/10/12/13. Jacob is found out at 15 against a set of quality backs.
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A minor criticism of CMK. He got in the way al least a couple of times and should have stopped the game and restarted rather than let the disrupted play continue.
Don't disagree he appeared to get in the way once or twice but I thought CMK was very good today.
Very few contentious and irritating decisions and he did his best to let the game flow. Much improved.
Well done CMK.
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Jacob is found out at 15 against a set of quality backs.
I did not think Jacob had a bad game, all considered. His tackling is better.
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Don't disagree he appeared to get in the way once or twice but I thought CMK was very good today.
Very few contentious and irritating decisions and he did his best to let the game flow. Much improved.
Well done CMK.
Agreed, I think he had a balanced, good game.
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Don't disagree he appeared to get in the way once or twice but I thought CMK was very good today.
Very few contentious and irritating decisions and he did his best to let the game flow. Much improved.
Well done CMK.
Agreed, I think he had a balanced, good game.
Yes, I thought so too. My moan was only minor.
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We’ve got a losing BP away at Quins (the Champions) and there’s a bit of gloom about. I don’t get it. We should be targeting top 4 and with the resources at our disposal be disappointed if we don’t get there. If our back division can stay injury free and get time together our pack will get them enough ball to beat most.
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Thought backs were really poor today. I’m not sure where the praise of mills is coming from apart from game time.
Some of the tackling in the backs was shocking- beard’s 2nd try.
Really don’t think Atkinson, mills, Spink, umaga works well at all. Surprised jimmy was benched for today.
Atkinson needs to show more on the ball, he just shipped it today.
Robson, had a shocker, which happens.
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Really don’t think Atkinson, mills, Spink, umaga works well at all. Surprised jimmy was benched for today.
Future planning, letting combinations develop?
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That combination has played one game together. That’s just not enough time to deliver a verdict.
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Joe Marler was absolutely exceptional. And our scrum suffered. There aren’t too many props as good as him.
I really don't agree with you on Marler's apparent superiority. He's a poseur and is a master of kidology. He cons people particularly officials, none of whom have much of a clue about the scrum.
This is going to sound like sour grapes but I still can't work out why he was playing today.
I believe a line being pushed in the press was "he wanted to help his club out".
That's all well and good but I struggle to believe his desire to help his club was significantly bigger than someone like Launchers. All very odd.
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Joe Marler was absolutely exceptional. And our scrum suffered. There aren’t too many props as good as him.
I really don't agree with you on Marler's apparent superiority. He's a poseur and is a master of kidology. He cons people particularly officials, none of whom have much of a clue about the scrum.
This is going to sound like sour grapes but I still can't work out why he was playing today.
I believe a line being pushed in the press was "he wanted to help his club out".
That's all well and good but I struggle to believe his desire to help his club was significantly bigger than someone like Launchers. All very odd.
Think that means he was released from camp and could of opted for the week off but wanted to play much like Alfie (and most players in similar situations) did the previous week, don't think there is any conspiracy here.
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Joe Marler was absolutely exceptional. And our scrum suffered. There aren’t too many props as good as him.
I really don't agree with you on Marler's apparent superiority. He's a poseur and is a master of kidology. He cons people particularly officials, none of whom have much of a clue about the scrum.
This is going to sound like sour grapes but I still can't work out why he was playing today.
I believe a line being pushed in the press was "he wanted to help his club out".
That's all well and good but I struggle to believe his desire to help his club was significantly bigger than someone like Launchers. All very odd.
Think that means he was released from camp and could of opted for the week off but wanted to play much like Alfie (and most players in similar situations) did the previous week, don't think there is any conspiracy here.
Not saying there is a conspiracy but why is someone who is regularly in the match day 23 released ahead of others who are in the side?
Just very strange, if this is all part of Eddie's plan to keep Marler in and England shirt fine but he could at least be clear and honest about it.
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Having got in from game thought I’d read match thread and reflections. Whilst I tend to agree with some of the observations, think you just have accept Quins were better organised and also coped with the conditions. I was actually surprised not more mistakes were made , it had been chucking it down for 3 hours till about 2:30 and the wind was very deceptive with strong blasts in certain areas with almost dead calm in others.
Yes, too many sillymistakes and penalties all round ,and not getting points in the time we dominated in first half was frustrating , but still to come away with a point from an away game at last seasons champions who are above you in the league is nothing to be sniffed at.
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Joe Marler was absolutely exceptional. And our scrum suffered. There aren’t too many props as good as him.
I really don't agree with you on Marler's apparent superiority. He's a poseur and is a master of kidology. He cons people particularly officials, none of whom have much of a clue about the scrum.
This is going to sound like sour grapes but I still can't work out why he was playing today.
I believe a line being pushed in the press was "he wanted to help his club out".
That's all well and good but I struggle to believe his desire to help his club was significantly bigger than someone like Launchers. All very odd.
Think that means he was released from camp and could of opted for the week off but wanted to play much like Alfie (and most players in similar situations) did the previous week, don't think there is any conspiracy here.
Not saying there is a conspiracy but why is someone who is regularly in the match day 23 released ahead of others who are in the side?
Just very strange, if this is all part of Eddie's plan to keep Marler in and England shirt fine but he could at least be clear and honest about it.
He has kept Genge and Rodd as looseheads so presumably they will be involved next week and if not give game time to Marler who has played 30 minutes across the past 2 weeks.
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We’ve got a losing BP away at Quins (the Champions) and there’s a bit of gloom about. I don’t get it. We should be targeting top 4 and with the resources at our disposal be disappointed if we don’t get there. If our back division can stay injury free and get time together our pack will get them enough ball to beat most.
The facilities, academy and potential of our club is massive...indeed it has to be up there with the best that can be offered in the game. However given these factors are only really now being realised it takes time for the potential to become a reality. There is no doubt though that we have an ever evolving squad that could become a true power again. I actually cannot recall such potential since our 2000s achievements.
However the reason we are not a top 4 team this year is what you have mentioned....time together....injuries over more than 2 seasons have not only stalled, but truly hurt our push for top 4 and silverware. It is cause and effect, and we are not through the effect yet....God willing we will move through it, and if we do and the combinations get those precious commodities of time and experience together we will go from strength to strength...and woe betide the prem and Europe when we do!
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Reading the various different views on the game on here and elsewhere it's really interesting to see how differently people have viewed and interpreted it.
I'm still pretty positive despite losing. We may be 7th and possibly 8th by the end of the weekend but we are still very much in touch with the play-offs - we are still only 5 points behind Quins in 3rd. We've got a pretty sad and lacklustre Bristol and then a rest week before Saints, Prem Cup and then Newcastle. The three Premiership games are all winnable and would see us climbing back up the table.
On the game, I though Marler was superb, bossed our scrum, didn't miss a tackle, good at the breakdown and clearly a real leader in the Quins teams. As said, our maul didn't work and we were weaker than them at the breakdown for much of the match. In all likelihood we have the next two games without Launch, but when he returns he will help the maul and Jack's return will improve the breakdown - already got his first turnover of the season.
This could well be next season's backline for us and I was quiet pleased with how they went, I'm happy to give a bit of latitude for it
being a new combo, Mills' first start in 18 months or so and Jacob probably worrying about his first tackle. Robson was poor though, I'd still start him next week though, not just as he's class and that will surely out but because Porter seems much better suited to our game plan of injecting pace off the bench and moving to a much more ball-in-hand game.
Injuries are a pain but Harris is so can fill in for Bomber, presumable we keep van Vuuren as cover until Frost is fit/Cruse back and Jack Willis starts in place of Fifita (who had a poor game too). We've still got some great players to come back into the side so I am going to stay optimistic taht whatever happens we will almost certainly finish the season in a far better place than most of us thought we would around Christmas time.
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… and Jacob probably worrying about his first tackle. Robson was poor though, I'd still start him next week though, not just as he's class and that will surely out but because Porter seems much better suited to our game plan of injecting pace off the bench and moving to a much more ball-in-hand game.
I thought exactly this about Jacob and his first tackle, the problem was that is first major tackle he should have absolutely smashed Beard into touch when he was going for that first try and I think he held off a little - that try was a shambles and we were asleep with Odogwu not playing on and presenting the ball despite knocking on and then being asleep at the quick tap.
Porter should have come on a lot earlier for Robson last week as well, believe Robson got at least 12 mins too long this week too.
He needs to know that his place isn’t guaranteed to spark him into some form again.
Very mixed reviews on Umaga at FB, I think he did well and if he keeps popping up as he did, Like WLR used to it negates to need for another creative option at 12. Odendaal and Odogwu can play in the centre and both be a threat going forwards with Jacob bringing the creativity.
That said, Spink’s work in defence in the 13 channel is really coming on
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Who took over as Captain when Robbo went off? We were out almost all day and are just catching up now.
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I thought exactly this about Jacob and his first tackle, the problem was that is first major tackle he should have absolutely smashed Beard into touch when he was going for that first try and I think he held off a little - that try was a shambles and we were asleep with Odogwu not playing on and presenting the ball despite knocking on and then being asleep at the quick tap.
Porter should have come on a lot earlier for Robson last week as well, believe Robson got at least 12 mins too long this week too.
He needs to know that his place isn’t guaranteed to spark him into some form again.
Very mixed reviews on Umaga at FB, I think he did well and if he keeps popping up as he did, Like WLR used to it negates to need for another creative option at 12. Odendaal and Odogwu can play in the centre and both be a threat going forwards with Jacob bringing the creativity.
That said, Spink’s work in defence in the 13 channel is really coming on
Totally agree with that. I think Jacob's tackling improved but he was far too passive on Beard.
I'd give Porter c.30 mins a game at the moment. I think Dan is probably aware of Porter breathing down his neck, he has mentioned about the impact of the bench a few times post match.
I really like Spink, he was a bot overshadowed at under 20s as he was in the same group as Lawrence and Dingwall, then his awful injury record, so the time he's getting in the team and Lee's comments are fantastic. He might not have the big hits of Fekitoa but he doesn't miss many tackles and puts people down effectively.
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Who took over as Captain when Robbo went off? We were out almost all day and are just catching up now.
Not sure. They had enough leaders like Stooke, Jimmy, Gaskell and Tom Willis on the pitch though.
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SfC ... Yes! My thoughts exactly. Would be happy with any of those, but decided probably Jamma as first choice. :)
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I had ref link on and it was difficult to work out who was skip after Robson. Not sure Robson’s leadership was that great. First option, there was a lot of decision making dithering, we had scrum or line out and we went scrum, Then Given a free kick- should have tapped and gone and then conceded a pen from scrum.
The backs didn’t hit any fluidity, especially from 1st phase. Once the move ended up being mills being smashed by esterhuizen, when we normally switch inside to Bassett, or put odogwu away.
It obviously didn’t help when your captain is making big errors-kicking out on the full.
CMK dealt with our moaning very well, Oghre is by far the worst culprit and really doesn’t endear himself to refs- pointlessly calling that the ball was out. Ironically he conceded a pen when it wasn’t out and he went to get it.
Quins made few mistakes, but really think we have better options for fb than umaga. Interestingly, he hasn’t been in the team during this time.
Onwards…top 4 was very optimistic, top 8 probably more realistic.
My biggest concern is that we rely on big plays from our gun players, rather than team tries.
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Have noticed that those games, thankfully few, where Dan starts as captain his game suffers.
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Have noticed that those games, thankfully few, where Dan starts as captain his game suffers.
Yes, I have noticed that too.
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Have noticed that those games, thankfully few, where Dan starts as captain his game suffers.
Bingo. Reckon he's a player that shouldn't be captain, let him focus on playmaking.
Brad she remain captain. If not him them Launchbury, Tom Willis etc.
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Absolutely agree (sadly) with all the above comments. It seems to distract Robbo from his game when he is also Captain. Brad, then Joe and then (for me) Tom who has had plenty of experience captaining the young International teams very successfully.
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I like a 2nd or back row as a captain.
If I have to have a back then a 12.
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I like a 2nd or back row as a captain.
If I have to have a back then a 12.
For me, back row is ideal.
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I like a 2nd or back row as a captain.
If I have to have a back then a 12.
Anyone in any position can be captain as long as they have the right personality and game awareness to carry it off and it doesn't detract from their game.
I'd agree that some positions may be easier and many considered 15 too remote but Hogg does ok for Scotland. If the captain needs to be aware of everything and be close to the coalface then there are no other leaders in the team. At a higher level the captain will not be constantly communicating with the team during play. If he thinks he needs to he's not a good captain or the team are truly awful.
I think Dobby and Thomas Young are not the right choices. We haven't won many with them as captain and it does detract from their own game.
I'm sure Lee has a leadership group and it will be interesting to see who emerges from that as a longer term captain. LBND was very young when he first got the job but he had all the tools required of a captain already and became a great captain with experience.
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We lost to a team in poor form that other teams have put away - including two we beat recently. That should be slightly concerning.
I always thought we'd struggle at the breakdown given the backrow we started. Onwards and upwards, starting at Bristol Friday night. But I very much doubt we'll make Top 6 this season, I just don't think the team is resilient enough in comparison to our rivals and we've thrown away too many points in the weeks leading up to this point.
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I like a 2nd or back row as a captain.
If I have to have a back then a 12.
Anyone in any position can be captain as long as they have the right personality and game awareness to carry it off and it doesn't detract from their game.
I'd agree that some positions may be easier and many considered 15 too remote but Hogg does ok for Scotland. If the captain needs to be aware of everything and be close to the coalface then there are no other leaders in the team. At a higher level the captain will not be constantly communicating with the team during play. If he thinks he needs to he's not a good captain or the team are truly awful.
I think Dobby and Thomas Young are not the right choices. We haven't won many with them as captain and it does detract from their own game.
I'm sure Lee has a leadership group and it will be interesting to see who emerges from that as a longer term captain. LBND was very young when he first got the job but he had all the tools required of a captain already and became a great captain with experience.
When you look at Lol and Johnno, you had leaders that would drag the troops over the hill with them. Exceptional guys. I don't see their like in the modern era.
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I like a 2nd or back row as a captain.
If I have to have a back then a 12.
Anyone in any position can be captain as long as they have the right personality and game awareness to carry it off and it doesn't detract from their game.
I'd agree that some positions may be easier and many considered 15 too remote but Hogg does ok for Scotland. If the captain needs to be aware of everything and be close to the coalface then there are no other leaders in the team. At a higher level the captain will not be constantly communicating with the team during play. If he thinks he needs to he's not a good captain or the team are truly awful.
I think Dobby and Thomas Young are not the right choices. We haven't won many with them as captain and it does detract from their own game.
I'm sure Lee has a leadership group and it will be interesting to see who emerges from that as a longer term captain. LBND was very young when he first got the job but he had all the tools required of a captain already and became a great captain with experience.
When you look at Lol and Johnno, you had leaders that would drag the troops over the hill with them. Exceptional guys. I don't see their like in the modern era.
I would say there are similarities between Brad Shields and Lawrence.
Brad may not deliver the highly emotional, rousing speeches that Lol used to, but rugby isn’t played in such an emotive way as it used to be. It’s a lot more technical, but still involves huge heart.
I think both Brad and Lol left everything out on the pitch, gave it their all, every game.
And they raise the games of those around them.
I think Brad is an exceptional leader and I think we’re very fortunate to have him.
He’s an absolute beast. A true warrior.
And that’s how we used to refer to Lawrence.
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Complete agreement.
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Shields is a natural leader and leads through words and deeds. The last two games have shown how much we miss him.