Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: 13thWarrior on February 06, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
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Not sure we want to talk about 2 abject performances on here. But England were woeful. Scotland had the vast majority of possession as we kept hoofing it aimlessly to them. Lawrence made 1 carry then gets hoicked off, and Robson clearly has been told to keep box kicking it so that is what he does.
Scotland fully deserve that win, and I hope it gives the England coaching set up reason to think if they really are on the right track.
France Scotland (rematch from last year too) is going to be one hell of a game.
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Farrell’s kicking was woeful all game. Just gave the ball to them every time
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Boring boring England yet again. Lawrence doesn’t get a touch, two of the best wingers in the world used as kick chasers, just boring again. Eddie still wants to play without the ball and the players will kick away even if there are options in front of them because that’s what they’re told to do.
Farrell should have been hauled off at half time, looked so rusty as Billy did as well.
Eddie is losing the fans and I was cheering on Scotland really from the start
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yes! now get rid of that to$$er who's dragging England down, is he employed by the Australian rfu to make sure England don't progress
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Well, had a a cheeky £10 on Scotland when I saw the odds were 5 to 1. I knew it was a long shot, but way nearer than one game in six. That's taken some of the sting out of the results today!
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Watching Farrell's post match interview, clueless and no acknowledgement on how well Scotland played, and how the Scots dominated the game. Interesting point that Lawrence didn't touch the ball until 60 minutes in, the Manu lite experiment failed. I feel massively aggrieved that we are missing some of our best players, the majority who had to sit there, not participate and be treated to that sh** show from England. A bad day all around.
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This is not a reaction to one test, this is a reflection of many months of a coach who consciously walked us into this debacle. Scotland fully deserve their victory, but Jones stubbornness of picking his favourites despite their lack of game time and his ever limited game plan has delivered us the result we deserved.
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Ford's a much better tactical kicker than Farrell but wasn't given enough time. All I can think of is they were worried about him defensively and it was far too late when he came on.
Did England break the gain line in the whole match? I don't remember one.
I find it hard to believe that Billy is the best No 8 in the country, he wasn't bad but there was no spark from him.
Far too many times they just took the ball passively contact, recycled it (if hey didn't lose it) then kicked. The Scottish defence didn't have to do anything except number up.
Anyway, we should not take anything away from Scotland, it was a magnificent display except for their inability to convert all that possession and territory in to points. That lack of ability will come back to haunt them.
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Congratulations Scotland! Well played and well deserved. There - never thought I'd say that. Excellent.
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England philosophy for a whole now: Kick away possession and pressure the opposition as they believe they’ll reclaim the ball further up the pitch than from where they kicked it.
Eddie after the game talking to Bayfield: “Maaaate, 75% possession [to Scotland] and 10 penalties [given away by England] in the first half tells the story”
As Jim and Goodey say, Eddie are you ok?
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Could make it difficult for Eddie to give Jack, Paulo and Tom game time now, particularly next week when it was most likely against Italy, unless he goes against his character and past history.
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Could make it difficult for Eddie to give Jack, Paulo and Tom game time now, particularly next week when it was most likely against Italy, unless he goes against his character and past history.
They won't get a game, EJ doesn't do a rethink, he has had humility removal surgery. He will carry on with his formula...
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I find it hard to believe that Billy is the best No 8 in the country, he wasn't bad but there was no spark from him.
I'm not even convinced he's the best 8 in the Championship.
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Interesting conversation between the Redpaths. Son now done something his Dad never did.
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Boring boring England yet again. Lawrence doesn’t get a touch, two of the best wingers in the world used as kick chasers, just boring again. Eddie still wants to play without the ball and the players will kick away even if there are options in front of them because that’s what they’re told to do.
Farrell should have been hauled off at half time, looked so rusty as Billy did as well.
Eddie is losing the fans and I was cheering on Scotland really from the start
Need to find that applaud button.
This! A million times over.
Eddie won't change course, he assumes he is right and everyone else is wrong. Some of those players- the cheats who stayed with the cheats- simply have had no rugby. This should have been just as well, because the game plan is to play no rugby, but no England team has been so packed full of talent and yet had so little ambition.
Ultimately Eddie is not the "arse but a winner" he is seen as by some. Two world cup finals as a losing head coach, a six n win pc lower than Lancaster's, record worst 6n ever for England, Australia being reduced to rubble under his leadership, the blots are there for all to see. He has high points to counterbalance, of course, some very good moments, especially in the first two years of any job he has been in, but recently he crowed about winning the autumn cup vs France third XV, and about the 6n, thanks to France imploding, when the warning signs have been there for all to see.
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This is not a reaction to one test, this is a reflection of many months of a coach who consciously walked us into this debacle. Scotland fully deserve their victory, but Jones stubbornness of picking his favourites despite their lack of game time and his ever limited game plan has delivered us the result we deserved.
Well said. This has been a long time coming.
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Unimaginative selection equals totally flat unimaginative play. No creativity at all. Not sure how Vunipola and Daly get anywhere near the team. I've never seen what all the fuss is about with Genge either. England are just so boring and predictable and they got what they deserved.
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The actual players are all very good. But under this coaching structure, since 2019 has been dreadful. We've just not survived without Wisemantel.
But today in particular, Jesus Christ. To pick that many players who've not played in months is delusional. Ford, and Malins should've started. Billy shouldn't have played. Just overall poor performance. Only Itoje impressed me. And actually, didn't think Wilson was that good. This season, most of those players have played well. But from club to international, form hasn't translated.
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If they're going to play that unimaginative, one dimensional, rugby why do they need a defined squad that is taken away from their clubs for long periods in training camps and other sessions?
It can't take more than a few days prep for that style of play.
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Wilson hadn't played this season until the beginning of last month but what a shower of sh*t
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The same could be said for the Sarries contingent. They did not look battle hardened IMHO.
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I looked up the RWC QF when I saw the selection as I thought the game strategy might be similar and the stats seemed to bear that out. We had much less possession, were set up to tackle/defend effectively and looked to what I might call "points of physical advantage" to enable scoring. What this did need was an opposition that wasn't so organised defensively or prepared to match England at tackle and breakdown.
England's plan to kick was also blunted, for me, partly, by a ref prepared to apply Laws 14 and 15, which provided more incentive to keep possession and Scotland were given the ball and happy to take into contact in an organised way. This also meant that England (lucky on the yellow card front) gave away a plethora of penalties and had nothing other than kick, and run forwards through narrow channels. Such an approach when needing to change, wanted intelligent players, coached to think for themselves....and yet that was not forthcoming.
Well played Scotland - reminded me of 6Ns 2018, when the new emphasis re the breakdown, left England bereft of ideas and 5th in the 6Ns table. Jones is obviously able to prepare teams in great detail, but seems unable to provide teams with a framework which is to be used as a basis for play, but not the template. You could see this in the Autumn Cup and too often when teams outside the "first group" were played. Vs Japan and Argentina in AI's come to mind. Games won but ineptly.
The reaction to this game ought to be a reflection on how you are coaching such that the team is less than the sum of its parts. And why did Lawrence, Watson, May and Daly not get a pass....... Defence - fine - but you have to work out how to score when matched or challenged.
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It was naive to play anyone from the Cheats. There's just no way Vunipola, George, Farrell and Daly are the best in their positions. Couple that with the fact they are rusty and you lose. Add Youngs in and it's boring as well. But the blame lies with the ethos coached into them. As Wasps fans the intention to play without the ball is always going to be offensive to us.
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Boring boring England yet again. Lawrence doesn’t get a touch, two of the best wingers in the world used as kick chasers, just boring again. Eddie still wants to play without the ball and the players will kick away even if there are options in front of them because that’s what they’re told to do.
Farrell should have been hauled off at half time, looked so rusty as Billy did as well.
Eddie is losing the fans and I was cheering on Scotland really from the start
Need to find that applaud button.
This! A million times over.
Eddie won't change course, he assumes he is right and everyone else is wrong. Some of those players- the cheats who stayed with the cheats- simply have had no rugby. This should have been just as well, because the game plan is to play no rugby, but no England team has been so packed full of talent and yet had so little ambition.
Ultimately Eddie is not the "arse but a winner" he is seen as by some. Two world cup finals as a losing head coach, a six n win pc lower than Lancaster's, record worst 6n ever for England, Australia being reduced to rubble under his leadership, the blots are there for all to see. He has high points to counterbalance, of course, some very good moments, especially in the first two years of any job he has been in, but recently he crowed about winning the autumn cup vs France third XV, and about the 6n, thanks to France imploding, when the warning signs have been there for all to see.
Eddie Jones is actually very insecure.
Some may seem to think he has an overly-inflated opinion of himself.
But actually....he is deeply insecure.
He is desperate to protect his win/lose ratio...and sets up England ‘not to lose’.
He hates change....and loves control (a good indicator of someone with esteem, OCD and anxiety issues).
He is trying to prove to the world that he understands rugby better than anyone else...and is ahead of the ‘curve’, whatever that means.
He keeps inventing ‘modern scenarios’ that actually don’t exist.
He keeps over complicating the game...and trying to be too clever.
“Let’s play two 7.5’s, three 12’s and four 15’s”???!!!
Basically....he’s terrified of being found-out as an inferior coach.
He keeps going back to his ‘trusted lieutenants’ because he’s terrified of playing people that show up his gameplan for what it really is....which is limited.
He can’t ‘see’ in his own mind how to play a more ambitious and expansive game....and so he won’t empower others to allow it so.
Eddie Jones is over.
I’m sure he’s a lovely guy over a glass of red....but his inability to expand his awareness and broaden his approach is his downfall.
England may continue to win some home nation games....but the RFU will eventually realise he’s not bringing in young fans into the game...and shirt sales will plummet.
English cricket on Channel 4 will win the hearts and minds this Spring. And build steam through the Summer.
Go Joe Root and Ben Stokes!!
England Rugby has a mountain to climb. People are slow to renew their debentures.
Fans are turning away.
Kids are struggling to find interest.
And Eddie is stuck in his own little bubble of limitations and anxiety.
And strangely enough, I feel for the guy.
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Towards the end of the bottle, I have to admit to some small sympathy for him.
He clearly needs to show he is in control, and cannot ever take conventional wisdom. He is convinced that England need to play like some mythical England that beat his lads in 2003. Now in fairness by the time the final hit then, England were on the slide and had little left but the memory of winning, which was enough, just. But that Engkand team had four years of often expansive three dimensional play before they tightened up, and even tightened up offered more in attack.
Ultimately Eddie's best suited to a tier two nation like Japan, where he makes best of what he has got, rather than a well funded tier one nation who have resources in abundance.
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Hats off to Scotland but this was one of the worst England displays I have ever seen
Lawrence Dallaglio
Sunday February 07 2021, 12.01am, The Sunday Times
The game has ended but for this Englishman the disappointment hasn’t subsided. Certain things need to be acknowledged. Scotland were magnificent. They outplayed England in every phase of the game and the only surprise was that they didn’t win by more. They had the collective will and the star performers. Jonny Gray was outstanding, so too Cameron Redpath and Stuart Hogg.
Other things also need to be acknowledged. I was quick to suggest that the performance against New Zealand in the 2019 World Cup semi- final was the best I had ever seen from an England team. Now I’ve got to say this was one of the worst.
England looked clueless. Not just for parts of it, all game. I don’t know whether that’s down to the fact that a number of key players hadn’t played for eight weeks or whether everyone just had an off day. Whatever the cause, it’s got to be sorted out quickly because that was as bad as it gets.
This is not me being overcritical. It was there for everyone to see. I’ve got nothing but respect for all these England players but you’ve got to keep earning respect and they didn’t do that in this game. The players need to take a very long, hard look at themselves and come out with answers.
Sometimes when your team lose, disappointment can lead to an excessively negative reaction. Half an hour after the game I was looking through the stats and everything I felt during the game and immediately afterwards was borne out by the analysis. I thought England didn’t fire a shot. The stats said they didn’t make one line break. Scotland made five.
I wondered why Ollie Lawrence and Anthony Watson got so little opportunity and it turns out that neither got their hands on the ball in the first half. Two good attacking players and not one touch between them. The conditions weren’t that bad.
I had a sense that England’s indiscipline was one of the principal reasons why the team were under so much pressure. The stats say they conceded 15 penalties to Scotland’s six. Clive Woodward use to warn us that if we conceded ten or more penalties in a Test match, there was a good chance we’d lose it. Give away that many penalties and you just can’t get a foothold in the game. England’s lineout creaked and the pack came out on the wrong side of the scrum contest. In fact the penalty count was the only statistical category that England won.
I felt there was a mindset problem. England hadn’t anything like the same energy and hunger that Scotland had. Of course the team were without a number of key performers but that’s no excuse for an abject performance. Eddie Jones will wonder about the effects of his Saracens players not playing for eight weeks.
This was always going to be a topic of conversation and after such a disappointing performance, it is even more relevant now. Jamie George, Maro Itoje, Billy Vunipola, Owen Farrell and Elliot Daly haven’t had the kind of competition that is vital for a player going into a Test match.
Going back to my own career, I was a player who wanted as many tough matches for my club as I could get going into a game for England. I needed to be match hard. Some of the Saracens guys looked off the pace. Farrell is a world-class rugby player but playing at ten for the first time in eight weeks, he looked out of sorts.
It doesn’t matter how good you are, you can’t suddenly make up for lost time. You cannot replicate match conditions in training. Periods of inactivity affected me regardless of how hard I trained. Rugby is not a game you can just pick up and put down. Not at this level, where it’s very unforgiving.
As bad as England were, the game shouldn’t be remembered for that but for just how good Scotland were. They played with terrific intensity but also with skill. Finn Russell fired some terrific passes to those outside of him and as a result Scotland were always more likely than England to make ground when they went wide.
Cameron Redpath went to South Africa with England in 2018 and I’m guessing he would have stayed where he was had he been offered any encouragement in terms of selection. I think of the players who have played in England’s midfield over the past four years. Not all of them are as good as Redpath and he should be remembered as the one that got away.
The centre and the rest of the Scottish players will look back on their country’s first victory against England at Twickenham for 38 years and wonder how they won by only five points.
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I genuinely believe that Eddie would be happy to play open, attacking, free flowing rugby.
Look back to his Australia side from 20 years ago, or the Japan side.
He's not a completely negative coach
However, before he even started working with England, he had decided that we couldn't play that way and that we had no open sides.
As such, he went for a different approach more akin to what worked for South Africa and probably also during his time with Saracens.
In fairness, it's largely true. We have more players suited to the power game than the all field, think on your feet, attacking game.
However, that's not all we have. We do have natural ball players who can play across the whole back line.
We have forwards with hands that will shame most centres
We have broken field runners willing to back themselves against any opposition.
And we have play makers with vision.
Unfortunately, we are in an era of safety first. Even a club like wasps often need to play in the right areas and arguably shouldn't take anywhere near as many risks as we do.
A free flowing, attacking game plan is harder to replicate than a safety first, power based game.
We always talk about how Exeter's whole squad know the game plan, whereas sometimes even our senior players seem to have only read the play book 5 minutes before kick off.
I think Eddie is too far down his path to change it now, and I doubt he wants to. He'll point at a world cup final as justification that he's close to solving the problems.
Ultimately, he may be right. Slow and steady sometimes does win the race - but it's usually pretty boring
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Thing is - I think he's forgotten say, the SA tour in 2018 when England attacked like the best side in the world and then lost two games from basic defensive problems. They didn't lose the games because of having a great attack.
He keeps going on about "attack being for the future" but he's had 4 years and built a great attacking strategy - only to pull his attacking shoulders in when defence needed some work, and the breakdown and replacing Robshaw etc. Why forget how good England were nearly three years ago?
I don't know, obviously - but it seems now like a fear of something. Yesterday, Lawrence made zero metres and England made zero clean breaks. And faced with a team, comfortable with the ball, gave it back to them.....kicking proportionally twice as much as Scotland.......And we do have players, a back three of Daly, Watson and May barely got a pass...
I think he is in danger of trying to control the game too much and not allow players to play.
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I find myself in accord with much on the thread, which makes me beg the questions-
Is it just a case of us fans, and to be fair much of the media including ex international players, not being as clued in as Eddie and he sees stuff that we can't?
Did Eddie's sports scientists let him down by assuring him that the Sarries contingent would be fine when common sense and ex-players were flagging it up as being an issue? Did Eddie just ignore their advice because he does not believe players need prem rugby/thinks prem rugby is not relevant?
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I wasn't expecting England to show much ambition with ball in hand but I was surprised that we showed literally none.
Our first kickable penalty came after 32 minutes. I'm not surprised we went for the the points rather than the corner lineout. However, we had a penalty advantage (a scot not rolling away at a ruck) Young's had his hands on the ball and rather than try a "shot for nothing" training ground move or even just a crossfield kick for a winger to chase, we're just happy to get the ref to blow his whistle.
Were the players happy the game plan was finally working? Win a kickable penalty and kick it? That's the gameplan. In its entirety? Complete lack of ambition or invention.
https://youtu.be/7k0QFyNT-14 from about 35 minutes on the video clock.
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Methods of play are one thing and Englands is dull at the moment. But for the problem is selection. England badly need freshening up. I'd say those that really shouldn't be there at the moment are George, Vunipola, Watson, Daly, Youngs and Williams. That's the spine of the side. For me Smith or Ford have to play 10. Its all to predictable at the moment.
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Methods of play are one thing and Englands is dull at the moment. But for the problem is selection. England badly need freshening up. I'd say those that really shouldn't be there at the moment are George, Vunipola, Watson, Daly, Youngs and Williams. That's the spine of the side. For me Smith or Ford have to play 10. Its all to predictable at the moment.
Couldn’t agree more.
Spot on.
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Given that Eddie only has 28 players to select from, unless he dramatically changes the game plan, there's not a lot that can change.
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The same EJ that stated the last WC squad would be disbanded with new blood. Yet the only new blood we see are holding tackle bags.
The guys a joke. I have lost all interest in England and he did that. He's 'creating the best team in the world mate'..that no one wants to watch.
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Methods of play are one thing and Englands is dull at the moment. But for the problem is selection. England badly need freshening up. I'd say those that really shouldn't be there at the moment are George, Vunipola, Watson, Daly, Youngs and Williams. That's the spine of the side. For me Smith or Ford have to play 10. Its all to predictable at the moment.
Couldn’t agree more.
Spot on.
Yes and no. Select whoever you like, there is a need for refreshment - but if the game plan coached is the one utilised yesterday - nothing will change.
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The same EJ that stated the last WC squad would be disbanded with new blood. Yet the only new blood we see are holding tackle bags.
The guys a joke. I have lost all interest in England and he did that. He's 'creating the best team in the world mate'..that no one wants to watch.
Must admit I was rooting Scotland before game and nothing in the 80 minutes changed my mind.
Similar to England Soccer just can’t get excited about it so don’t watch national team anymore.
Unfortunately as long as England Rugby win enough games and crowds in the future continue to fill all the seats nothing is going to change .
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Methods of play are one thing and Englands is dull at the moment. But for the problem is selection. England badly need freshening up. I'd say those that really shouldn't be there at the moment are George, Vunipola, Watson, Daly, Youngs and Williams. That's the spine of the side. For me Smith or Ford have to play 10. Its all to predictable at the moment.
And yet, this is largely the same team who blew NZ away in the Semis. Listening to Eggchasers this morning and Tim talking through Jonny's comments on ITV after the game. I missed the post-match interviews (other than Farrell's) so if this is wrong, I apologise but relaying what Cocker said. Jonny's apparently spoke about a handful of games where for whatever they just weren't clicking and in trying to figure out they put it down to: Trying too hard and forcing things that weren't on, then a handful of other very minor changes.
Both the Premiership this season and international rugby at the moment is such fine margins. I do believe the changes needed to take England from the Scotland performance back to the sort of performance vs NZ are relatively minor. For me:
-- Farrell has to play 12. If he starts, it's at 12. If Ford is injured, or out of form we find another 10. The conundrum with that is that really only Smith/Simmonds are contenders to slot in right now. Simmonds is much more in the Farrell mould, Smith is having a good season and in-form. Jacob and Charlie both too green and I think need to get some consistent club form to be in contention - They've both shown enough, they just need to show it regularly enough
-- Daly needs a break or a rest. We either need to have a rock at the back, or someone who can give us some attacking impotus. My preference is Malins at 15 and Daly on the bench. There is no doubting Elliott's quality, but he's not showing it at the moment
-- Youngs also needs some time away from the squad, perhaps permanently. We've got Spencer and Robson both capable of scrapping it out for the shirt and Randall waiting in the wings. The 3 of them also give balance and flexibility. We know Dobbie can play a kicking game as well as a fast-paced, sniping game as/when needed. Spencer gives control as well as lightning pace to punish teams and Randall fizzes all over the place.
-- Pick a 13 at 13. Slade, or Lawrence or Paolo. I don't mind. If you want grunt, pick one of the latter two. If you want ball playing, pick Slade
-- Give Billy a break. His power and size aren't as effective as they were (at least not overtly, although supposedly his work off of the ball is through the roof). Put Curry at 8 and then rotate Underhill, Earl and Jack (when all 3 are fit) at 6/7 and pick based on whether you want to play a more counter-attacking game (Jack/Earl) or a more defensive/physical game (Underhill). That's not to doubt Jack's physicality or defence- he's a strong ball carrier, but his point of difference is his ability to win turnover ball to turn into attack
They're the changes I would make. More selection than anything and the only changes to the current squad would be to swap Spencer in for Youngs and bring in Smith. But not sure who i'd take out of the squad to accommodate him. Probably Paolo/Lawrence. If underhill was fit i'd have Willis in for Wilson.
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[quote author=InBetweenWasp link=topic=3255.msg55706#msg55706
-- Farrell has to play 12. If he starts, it's at 12. If Ford is injured, or out of form we find another 10. The conundrum with that is that really only Smith/Simmonds are contenders to slot in right now. Simmonds is much more in the Farrell mould, Smith is having a good season and in-form. Jacob and Charlie both too green and I think need to get some consistent club form to be in contention - They've both shown enough, they just need to show it regularly enough
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You probably meant this, but I really wouldn't drop Ford for anyone at the moment. He's probably the best fly half in the world right now, or at the very least up there. Should've started ahead on Farrell based on form and game time.
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You probably meant this, but I really wouldn't drop Ford for anyone at the moment. He's probably the best fly half in the world right now, or at the very least up there. Should've started ahead on Farrell based on form and game time.
Yep, I meant Ford is our 10. Then, if he is injured or out of form we find another 10 that isn't Farrell. We need to stop with Farrell at 10 if Ford doesn't start at 10. Farrell is well suited to being an English 12. But no way should he be our (or even the Lions) 10.
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You probably meant this, but I really wouldn't drop Ford for anyone at the moment. He's probably the best fly half in the world right now, or at the very least up there. Should've started ahead on Farrell based on form and game time.
Yep, I meant Ford is our 10. Then, if he is injured or out of form we find another 10 that isn't Farrell. We need to stop with Farrell at 10 if Ford doesn't start at 10. Farrell is well suited to being an English 12. But no way should he be our (or even the Lions) 10.
Completely agree
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Said in the other place that Farrell is a 12, and a mediocre 10 by international standards,with poor vision, and simply unable to play in traffic. He may have the mentality of a Lion, McGeechan's test match animal, and the boot of a Lion, but he does not have the skill set of even an England ten, let alone a Lions one.
I don't know if this is like last year, where a dodgy start was recovered from, or more like our 5th place, where we just looked awful throughout....
We will thrash Italy, but France at home and the two away games look harder, especially as Ireland looked decent for the first time in ages, playing with 14.
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And yet, this is largely the same team who blew NZ away in the Semis.
And it is largely the same team that got annihilated by the Saffas in the final.
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Interesting stat on the a Full Contact podcast ....
Youngs made 28 passes in the 53 mins, Dobbie made 29 passes. They didn’t give the number of kicks so difficult to get the full picture.
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Interesting stat on the a Full Contact podcast ....
Youngs made 28 passes in the 53 mins, Dobbie made 29 passes. They didn’t give the number of kicks so difficult to get the full picture.
You might find this interesting
https://www.englandrugby.com/fixtures-and-results/match-centre/six-nations-england-scotland-twickenham-150-calcutta-cup-february-2020#stats
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Amazing how many people don't give a stuff about England but feel interested enough to comment on a thread specifically about England.... :)
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What really gets me about this is that, I can't see any other top level coach picking all of those players who haven't played for weeks on end. I know he's an international coach and I'm not etc etc, but to me that's just common sense. I keep asking myself, who else would have taken that risk, and I honestly don't think any half decent coach would do.
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What really gets me about this is that, I can't see any other top level coach picking all of those players who haven't played for weeks on end. I know he's an international coach and I'm not etc etc, but to me that's just common sense. I keep asking myself, who else would have taken that risk, and I honestly don't think any half decent coach would do.
Before the game I was wondering if they might not have been too bad - in an era of players playing too much rugby and carrying knocks and worse from game to game, having a few fresh legs might have been an advantage. But I would have made sure to absolutely beast them in training for the two weeks or so I had them as preparation. And I would imagine EJ could easily have got Saracens to up those players' training schedules before they joined the England camp. If he didn't (or couldn't because of Covid protocols) then it would obviously never work and they shouldn't have been picked.
But, then again, I would have dropped all Saracens players from the minute they received their punishment relegation last season and used it as a chance to build squad depth and experience.
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When was the last EPS squad finalised?
From memory, Eddie can only pick from that and can only make a small number of changes to it each time.
Is it possible that the EPS was finalised before the championship season was delayed and therefore he wouldn't have known they'd have no match practice?
The question of whether Saracens players morally deserve to be in the England squad is a different matter
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Good article here from the XV website, free to read for 24 hours
https://www.thexv.rugby/2021/02/09/lost-for-words/
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Good article here from the XV website, free to read for 24 hours
https://www.thexv.rugby/2021/02/09/lost-for-words/
That is excellent thanks.
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Good article here from the XV website, free to read for 24 hours
https://www.thexv.rugby/2021/02/09/lost-for-words/
That is excellent thanks.
Is a really good website, currently doing a promotion of £10 subscription instead of £25 for the year, I have had it since January, numerous good articles each week.
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What really gets me about this is that, I can't see any other top level coach picking all of those players who haven't played for weeks on end. I know he's an international coach and I'm not etc etc, but to me that's just common sense. I keep asking myself, who else would have taken that risk, and I honestly don't think any half decent coach would do.
Before the game I was wondering if they might not have been too bad - in an era of players playing too much rugby and carrying knocks and worse from game to game, having a few fresh legs might have been an advantage. But I would have made sure to absolutely beast them in training for the two weeks or so I had them as preparation. And I would imagine EJ could easily have got Saracens to up those players' training schedules before they joined the England camp. If he didn't (or couldn't because of Covid protocols) then it would obviously never work and they shouldn't have been picked.
But, then again, I would have dropped all Saracens players from the minute they received their punishment relegation last season and used it as a chance to build squad depth and experience.
I agree wrt picking the Sarries in the first place, however, that is now a moot point.
Regarding match fitness, I read a n interview with LBND in one of the papers ref England's dire performance and he categorically states that no amount of training can make up for loss of playing time. It is playing those matches that brings the sharpness, not the training.
From my own experience in boxing, I'd definitely agree. I've seen lads look really good in the gym or when sparring, but when it really counts they just freeze.
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and yet Maro who can't have played a game in months was probably Englands best player...
I don't think its nearly as simple as some are making out.
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Good article here from the XV website, free to read for 24 hours
https://www.thexv.rugby/2021/02/09/lost-for-words/
Great article. This quote bang on the mark:
"Question: ‘Shit, Eddie, what happened there?’
Eddie: ‘Mate, I screwed up. My fault. I got the preparation wrong.’
Question: ‘And what did you get wrong?’
Eddie: ‘Aw, mate, if I knew that, I wouldn’t have got it wrong, would I?’"
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and yet Maro who can't have played a game in months was probably Englands best player...
Most fired up? Most certainly. Most effective? There'd be many different opinions on that.....
Edit to add, on the basis of mike909's link to the stats on the last page, one could argue that Maro was not even the best 2nd row for England, let alone best player......
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and yet Maro who can't have played a game in months was probably Englands best player...
Most fired up? Most certainly. Most effective? There'd be many different opinions on that.....
Edit to add, on the basis of mike909's link to the stats on the last page, one could argue that Maro was not even the best 2nd row for England, let alone best player......
I often wonder why he is rarely cited. On Saturday I saw two blatant knees to the head of a prone player. Yes can be accidental but he does it too often.
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Looking ahead, what will Eddie do?
I hope he moves Farrell to 12 (he won't ever drop him). Youngs I can't see him changing either. Who will pay the price for the display? Change at 13 or 15? Can't see him dropping Billy, no matter what happens on the field. Will he pick the same players and change tactics or new players for the old game plan....?
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or old players with the old plan to prove a point?
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and yet Maro who can't have played a game in months was probably Englands best player...
Most fired up? Most certainly. Most effective? There'd be many different opinions on that.....
Edit to add, on the basis of mike909's link to the stats on the last page, one could argue that Maro was not even the best 2nd row for England, let alone best player......
I often wonder why he is rarely cited. On Saturday I saw two blatant knees to the head of a prone player. Yes can be accidental but he does it too often.
I often wonder with some of his transgressions , they happen so fast , ref doesn’t have time to realise what’s happened.
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and yet Maro who can't have played a game in months was probably Englands best player...
Most fired up? Most certainly. Most effective? There'd be many different opinions on that.....
Edit to add, on the basis of mike909's link to the stats on the last page, one could argue that Maro was not even the best 2nd row for England, let alone best player......
I often wonder why he is rarely cited. On Saturday I saw two blatant knees to the head of a prone player. Yes can be accidental but he does it too often.
I often wonder with some of his transgressions , they happen so fast , ref doesn’t have time to realise what’s happened.
But that's what we are supposed to have a TMO for!
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Looking ahead, what will Eddie do?
I hope he moves Farrell to 12 (he won't ever drop him). Youngs I can't see him changing either. Who will pay the price for the display? Change at 13 or 15? Can't see him dropping Billy, no matter what happens on the field. Will he pick the same players and change tactics or new players for the old game plan....?
You’re right about Faz.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiurL2i6d3uAhX1weYKHf1wA_0QlO8DegQIDhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.standard.co.uk%2Fsport%2Frugby%2Fowen-farrell-england-scotland-eddie-jones-six-nations-b919194.html&usg=AOvVaw3h2BZjQXV-6PQARkG0tZWj
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That just confirms what some of us think about Eddie. Our game plan is stagnant. Most of our players are stereotyped. Eddie clearly has not learned (or chooses not to) the lessons of the RWC final in 2019. We were lucky to win the 6 Nations last year. I fancy that we might win 2 games out of the 5 this season.
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Thanks for that, hookender, confirms what I feared.
Absolutely, well said Heathen, and no surprise I think?
I think nothing will remove Farrell, no matter how he performs. He seems to have big name supporters. McGeechan called him the ultimate "test match animal' or similar, Woodward said he was England's best ten, prior to Sat but I, like many here, have difficulty seeing it. Maybe it is me.
I think 3 out of five, but can see 2 as a floor. I would be pleasantly surprised with 4 from 5.
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Looking ahead, what will Eddie do?
I hope he moves Farrell to 12 (he won't ever drop him). Youngs I can't see him changing either. Who will pay the price for the display? Change at 13 or 15? Can't see him dropping Billy, no matter what happens on the field. Will he pick the same players and change tactics or new players for the old game plan....?
What he should do (within the constraints of the squad he has selected to operate with) is lose George, Billy, Youngs, Farrell and Daly from the 23 completely, and Wilson to the bench. Bring in LCD, Earl, Willis, Robson, Ford and Malins to start and Odogwu and Randall onto the bench with Dunn promoted from the shadow squad.
What he will almost certainly do is move Faz back to 12, Ford in at 10, and everyone else as they were, with Lawrence the unfortunate fall guy. Otherwise as you were. They'll turn Italy over comfortably and Eddie will feel vindicated.
Edit: Just seen the news on the prop changes in the squad, so we'll have 2 unfit Vunipolas in the starting XV this weekend instead of just the one.
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It matters not who is selected to stat if the tactics are the same.
We've got two props back - we won all our own ball in the scrum.....so it's not a big matter - compared to having 35% possession and doing sod all with the ball other than kicking it to a v comfortable back three and a team happy in possession
We only had 36% possession vs Aus in the RWC QF and 32% vs Ireland in the Autumn Cup and yet managed to win both games happily. What happened Saturday appeared an extension of the strategy vs Italy last 6Ns many were confused by (well I was....) when we kicked the ball away 44 times in play...a real high water mark. And looked like we weren't allowed to move the ball in hands. Farrell faced with a 6v 3 looked up and kicked...It's surely playing under orders?
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It matters not who is selected to stat if the tactics are the same.
exactly. I fail to understand the slagging off Farrell & Youngs get, they are doing exactly as they are told. Its not their fault.
If they were not, the wouldn't keep getting selected.
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It matters not who is selected to stat if the tactics are the same.
exactly. I fail to understand the slagging off Farrell & Youngs get, they are doing exactly as they are told. Its not their fault.
If they were not, the wouldn't keep getting selected.
They were losing and never looked like scoring. If that didn't make them think "sod this for a game of soldiers", get the team together and tell them, we're doing something different, they don't deserve to be internationals, or at least internationals in a winning team.
Does obeying the boss and being selected really trump changing and trying to win? I hope not.
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England is a team picked to play to a game plan. If players don't follow that plan, and they've had different ones to follow, do you think they would still be there?
Look back of the last few seasons, how many times have England lost games because the team didn't change the way they were playing?
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It’s a shame that Lawrence has the bite the bullet for not getting a pass in a system that doesn’t allow him to play the game that got him picked in the first place.
He has the poor stats because of those inside him yet he’ll be dropped to reaccomodate Farrell.
Whereas Lawrence outside Ford, even in the same system, would prove instantly more fruitful.
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England is a team picked to play to a game plan. If players don't follow that plan, and they've had different ones to follow, do you think they would still be there?
Look back of the last few seasons, how many times have England lost games because the team didn't change the way they were playing?
England's current position looks a lot like a reaction to 2018 and 5 losses in a row (Jones saved by Danny....) when we needed to change - as show in the 6N's, in SA we attacked like never before - but lost. And more and more looked to a negative game plan that minimised the chances of losing.
That's fine - unless it's done to the nth degree and you end up like on Saturday. When the plan is to kick to get inside the opposition 10m line and minimise giving away penalties and possession in your own half and that's failing....then carrying on kicking to a team happy ball in hand and with a class back three just looks clueless.
And on Saturday - someone must have said at HT "all's going well, keep it up"
We had less possession vs Ireland in the Autumn Cup but two May breaks made it a win. Nothing really created - but just like the RWC QF vs Australia, it was hailed a success. If Australia had offered what Scotland's pack did on Saturday - no way would we have been in a SF vs NZ....