Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Heathen on August 28, 2022, 08:09:23 AM
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Statement from Jim O'Toole :
https://twitter.com/JimOToole/status/1563756855410786304
Would going into Administration mean that they get a points deduction?
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Article in TRP says PRL will not parachute another team in to replace them. It will stay a 26 week league though as the EAs reject making it a 22 week league. Apparently they are not prepared as they have a bye week to start.
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Statement from Jim O'Toole :
https://twitter.com/JimOToole/status/1563756855410786304
Would going into Administration mean that they get a points deduction?
The PRL can chose not to impose such a deduction due to the Covid situation. BUT ... and this is a BIG but. Not imposing a penalty would encourage any other club who is in a similar situation to take advantage of the Covid joker and do the same.
Worcester have been rearranging the financial asset deckchairs to try to protect some assets from seizure by creditors. Not that I think that would necessarily work, as such shenanigans can be reversed by the Court, but such action is costly and could take years.
One thing you can be sure of. HMRC will want someone to pay them otherwise they will vote against any proposal. The assets of the existing club cannot be liquidated and used to preferentially pay HMRC, so the new buyer would have to agree to cover HMRC for any shortfall (in effect, buy that debt). The buyers are unlikely to do so for other debtors. The rest will be left to hang out to dry. A lot of companies, council and individuals are going to lose a lot of combined money.
Now, just assuming that all the involved business go in to a combined administration, the administrator becomes 100% liable to pay ongoing debts, such as wages. The players and coaches are going to be in the firing line here. Their contracts would legally have been ended, allowing the administrator to impose whatever deal they wanted, knowing the players can either accept of walk away from rugby.
What happens to Worcester's share in the PRL? Frozen, for the time being, probably.
What would the PRL do? Would it force Worcester's hand regarding players, by giving the other clubs permission to cherry pick players and for them to be temporarily outside the cap, thus forcing the administrator to honour existing contracts or lose players, and thus the club would fold anyway?
Going in to administration is a nuclear option. What you think you might achieve and be able to do often doesn't turn out that way.
Here, the PRL
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Not sure of the business side but going in to administration this season and taking a points penalty seems to be what he wants presumably as there is no relegation. This would mean they can play the season potentially with whatever players they have and not be relegated while planning and investing for the following premiership on and off the field (assuming he got control plus all the ifs, buts and maybes NWW mentions)?
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Reading between the lines it sounds as if the owner's expectations for an offer aren't realistic and this is the only alternative.
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Would this be covered by RFU rules? I couldn’t find anything other than salary cap refs for the PRL. Tye RFU financial regulations do seem to include relegation.
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Reading between the lines it sounds as if the owner's expectations for an offer aren't realistic and this is the only alternative.
When things are dire, by definition the owner no longer has the funds to keep it going. By law, they have to take some form of Insolvency action, and the creditors will decide what, most often HMRC. If there is only one buyer, the price will be low. Once in, let us say for example, Administration, things tend to happen quickly and creditors tend to get very little.
If the current owners truly are at that point, things are grim. Hope is not generally justified. If the PRL are indeed inclined to let the insolvency slide due to Covid (my guess is they will), the potential buyers can just sit back and watch it unfold to the point that the current owners no longer have control of events. Then, the deal will be made with the Insolvency Practitioner, in theory with some oversight from the creditors committee (but in reality little oversight).
No one is going to come out of it smelling of roses. There will likely be a lot of ill will and unhappiness. Well meaning locals and supporters who have extended credit will likely get stiffed. HMRC will lose its money.
And, as I said, whilst this is very sad for a very proud club, players and supporters, what will be key is the reaction of the PRL. It will have to be swift in any case, with the new season looming. Whatever decision they make could kill the club, or encourage other badly indebted clubs to go down a similar route to rid themselves of HMRC debt and other debt. Unintended consequences will abound.
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How long can covid be used as an excuse, though. Worcester had had the CVC money, millions in covid support and a full, unrestricted season.
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Would this be covered by RFU rules? I couldn’t find anything other than salary cap refs for the PRL. Tye RFU financial regulations do seem to include relegation.
It’s ok, I have answered my own question.
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How long can covid be used as an excuse, though. Worcester had had the CVC money, millions in covid support and a full, unrestricted season.
You might think so, but it depends what the PRL wish as an outcome. Most rules and regulations tend to have a get out of jail free loophole.
If the PRL, who undoubtedly have a much clearer picture of what the state of play is amongst the other 12 clubs (they will have been having informal talks for well over a year, as this train wreck will have been coming down the tracks for some time), think that one or more other clubs will be following Worcester (whose future is by no means a done deal, either way), then, is it tenable to 'punish' Worcester? The PRL might end up with a league of maybe just 6 clubs. They have contracts with broadcasters that will most certainly be at jeopardy.
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As well as what NWW says, if the Directors know they can't cover operating costs then they are trading fraudulently. I think there was one post where they said they had personally guaranteed salaries.
I suspect the crunch will come on pay day. If the pay wages then they might get a stay but as it unlikely anyone will extend them credit its hard to see how they can put a team out for their first game which is on the 10th away to Irish.
A very sad state of affairs.
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As well as what NWW says, if the Directors know they can't cover operating costs then they are trading fraudulently. I think there was one post where they said they had personally guaranteed salaries.
I suspect the crunch will come on pay day. If the pay wages then they might get a stay but as it unlikely anyone will extend them credit its hard to see how they can put a team out for their first game which is on the 10th away to Irish.
A very sad state of affairs.
At least an away game is cheaper to fund. A home game would mean opening up the stadium. Suppliers of the manpower, the food, etc, would likely baulk at extending credit for that. So, the real crunch will be the Exeter game on the 18th, four weeks from now. Nowhere near enough time to get things sorted.
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Well this is an interesting twist... https://twitter.com/mcossalifrancis/status/1564344931308769281?s=24&t=BAUpTLvMUqmHTh3J-hAtEg
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Just seen it on Twatter. NWW called something similar and how we laughed.
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The fact it was dismissed immediately suggests our owners aren't panicking.
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The fact it was dismissed immediately suggests our owners aren't panicking.
Raggs, I agree with that.
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I’m sure Worcester Sauce would have been delighted with a merger.
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Probably have apoplexy.
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I’m sure Worcester Sauce would have been delighted with a merger.
Ironically this isn't the first time, nor was the move to Coventry the first time someone looked at moving Wasps to the West Midlands. In 2001 when QPR and Loftus Road PLC went into administration, Cecil Duckworth was preparing a bid for Wasps, mainly to buy his way into the Premiership. Ultimately Chris Wright bought Wasps from Loftus Road PLC and the rest is history.
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Have to say, Worcester Wasps has a ring to it.
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Have to say, Worcester Wasps has a ring to it.
Probably better than Coventry Warriors
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Have to say, Worcester Wasps has a ring to it.
Probably better than Coventry Warriors
I suppose Coventry Crusaders would be a bit controversial.
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Coventry Cathedrals would be religiousist
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The fact it was dismissed immediately suggests our owners aren't panicking.
Or at least recognition that merging two organisations with financial problems creates one organisation with ginormous financial problems.
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The fact it was dismissed immediately suggests our owners aren't panicking.
Or at least recognition that merging two organisations with financial problems creates one organisation with ginormous financial problems.
Nope the first comment is somewhat closer to the mark.
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The fact it was dismissed immediately suggests our owners aren't panicking.
Or at least recognition that merging two organisations with financial problems creates one organisation with ginormous financial problems.
Nope the first comment is somewhat closer to the mark.
Both are probably true. The question would be 'Whats in it for Wasps?' and the answer to that is unclear. Is there a benefit we could think of? - I can't. It wouldn't resolve our own financial issues, if anything, it would be a further burden as SBSam has suggested.
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Coventry Cathedrals would be religiousist
And cultural misappropriation.
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The fact it was dismissed immediately suggests our owners aren't panicking.
Or at least recognition that merging two organisations with financial problems creates one organisation with ginormous financial problems.
Nope the first comment is somewhat closer to the mark.
Both are probably true. The question would be 'Whats in it for Wasps?' and the answer to that is unclear. Is there a benefit we could think of? - I can't. It wouldn't resolve our own financial issues, if anything, it would be a further burden as SBSam has suggested.
I didn’t have an agenda when I made that comment. The NHS has done this loads of times, hoping to solve things by merging 2 Trusts with big financial issues to create 1 Trust with huge financial issues.
I can’t see many benefits to Wasps if operating out of Coventry, a few more attendees perhaps.
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Breaking Warriors update: Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis.
I have been informed that the August payroll (due tomorrow) “at this moment” will not be fulfilled for staff and players.
According to the owners, this is due to the accounts being frozen. The overall outcome for the club remains uncertain.
That sounds a bit grim.
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Breaking Warriors update: Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis.
I have been informed that the August payroll (due tomorrow) “at this moment” will not be fulfilled for staff and players.
According to the owners, this is due to the accounts being frozen. The overall outcome for the club remains uncertain.
That sounds a bit grim.
Jeez not good for the players and staff.
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Wasps 'instantly rejected' proposal to merge with Worcester Warriors - reports
From Bobby Bridge.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-worcester-warriors-rugby-union-24886710 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-worcester-warriors-rugby-union-24886710)
Possibly already been overtaken by events - as above.
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Breaking Warriors update: Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis.
I have been informed that the August payroll (due tomorrow) “at this moment” will not be fulfilled for staff and players.
According to the owners, this is due to the accounts being frozen. The overall outcome for the club remains uncertain.
That sounds a bit grim.
If the Directors don’t have access to the accounts who does?
My guess is that this is the 1st step in appointing an administrator. Maybe it’s already been done and they are negotiating a pre-pack agreement?
Explainer below
https://www.irwin-insolvency.co.uk/pre-pack-insolvency/
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If the Directors don’t have access to the accounts who does?
Nobody does. Only the Court can unfreeze the bank accounts. That would either be after an administrator was appointed (who then petitions the Court), or the winding-up petition is heard.
Like I said before, unless someone is paying bills out of their own personal account, the business comes to a halt. Creditors are left unpaid, wages left unpaid. Very quickly power and other utilities get turned off. Suppliers (creditors) who have retention of ownership tend to turn up and take their stuff back.
In effect, a business that has let it go this far would normally enter administration immediately, whether a sale was possible or not. I am utterly amazed that directors did not do this days ago, as, at this point, they will be liable to prosecution for not doing so. The fact of a winding up petition from a major creditor (like the HMRC) will be seen de facto as proof that the business is not solvent.
Truthfully, unless the directors of a company don't care at all (I am certain this is not the case here), the tendency is for HMRC to give notice that they are applying to the Court for as winding up order. If you can't pay, they are giving you time to sort out insolvency, such as Administration. Fail to do that and then they file the papers. No director should let it go that far, as at that point they really should have taken steps to place the business in to administration, regardless of potential sales and other money coming in. That must have been at least a month ago.
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Fin Smith signed by Saints (not sure whether future) and another player (Hatherall) off to France immediately.
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Having been in to many places when all this happens, this is or can be a very stressful and sad time for the employees and staff of creditors who rely on the business. I saw a tweet from a coach who has moved down for this job, has his house in cardboard boxes right now, has his mortgage application and house buying and selling are happening. This is people's lives, and it hurts.
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Having been in to many places when all this happens, this is or can be a very stressful and sad time for the employees and staff of creditors who rely on the business. I saw a tweet from a coach who has moved down for this job, has his house in cardboard boxes right now, has his mortgage application and house buying and selling are happening. This is people's lives, and it hurts.
Nick Easter
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Chris Jones in the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62728730 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62728730)
Looks increasingly like Wuss have had it :( :( :(
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Chris Jones in the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62728730 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62728730)
Looks increasingly like Wuss have had it :( :( :(
From that email, it is clear that the directors are unwilling to do what they have to. I can't blame them. It must be heartbreaking. £20m to the Govt in debt, and that is just what is due. There is likely more yet to fall due.
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This is all so very very sad.
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From this morning's TOL :
Worcester Warriors staff will not be paid wages on time
Alex Lowe, Rugby Correspondent
The players and staff at Worcester Warriors have been informed that their salaries will not be paid on time this week because the club’s bank accounts have been frozen. The players can now give notice of their intention to leave the club.
This situation was widely expected but serves to deepen the crisis at Sixways and cast further doubt on the club’s ability to demonstrate it has the funds to participate in the Gallagher Premiership season.
Worcester owe at least £1.2 million by the middle of this week: two payments of £320,000 to HM Revenue & Customs from an overall tax debt of £6 million plus the monthly wage bill, which is £500,000 to £600,000 just for the playing squad.
Colin Golding, one of Worcester’s two co-owners, wrote to employees to confirm their wages would not be paid.
“As you will all no doubt know, the club’s bank accounts were frozen shortly after the HMRC petition was issued, meaning we are not able to access those funds to help meet payroll. Therefore we do not have the money at this moment to fulfil payroll tomorrow,” Golding wrote.
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It is understood players now have 14 days to give notice of their intention to leave the club unless their salaries are paid. It is understood there is also a mechanism whereby players could leave immediately.
Worcester have some attractive assets in Duhan van der Merwe and Rory Sutherland, the Scotland pair, plus Ollie Lawrence and Ted Hill, the England duo.
The difficulty will be finding a new club who have room in the salary cap and can afford the outlay. Kyle Hatherall, Worcester’s highly-rated flanker, appears to be on his way to France. If Lawrence and Hill were to follow, it would halt their England careers under the RFU’s selection regulations.
Fin Smith, the fly half who qualifies for England and Scotland, is due to join Northampton Saints in 2023 but the move could be brought forward by a year.
Premiership Rugby needs assurances by Thursday that Worcester will be able to participate in the season so there is time to reshape the fixture schedule. The club has regularly been late in paying its suppliers and employees this year.
Worcester have three interested potential buyers, including a group run by Jim O’Toole, who was the club’s chief executive between 2015 and 2017, which includes backing from American businessmen.
O’Toole confirmed on Sunday that his consortium — which has backing from former Ireland under-20 player James Sandford, who now runs a health and performance company for athletes called Atlas SportsTech — had proposed a funding model to the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS).
DCMS are Worcester’s main creditors after the club took out a £14 million loan from them as part of the Sport Winter Survival Package during the pandemic.
O’Toole’s consortium — which has registered a business called Atlas Worcester Warriors Rugby Club Limited — is committed to paying off the government loan, but insist the club would have to enter administration “immediately” for any takeover deal to go through.
It is understood the DCMS is not going to push the club into administration, but the government wants to see the RFU and Premiership Rugby take a more definitive position on the growing crisis. Worcester’s owners Goldring and Jason Whittingham are reluctant to place the club into administration and wrote to players last week to say that every effort was being made to find a solution. A proposal to merge the club with Wasps with matches to be played at Sixways is believed to be “dead in the water”. Local reports stated that Wasps rejected the plan.
Time is running out for Worcester. The official Premiership launch is held at Twickenham on Thursday and Worcester’s first league fixture is due to be away at London Irish on September 10.
It is still uncertain whether Worcester will be able to field a team. The players have returned to training and are preparing for a pre-season friendly in Inverness which is being funded by their shirt sponsor.
If Worcester enter administration they could be docked 35 points or removed from the Premiership entirely.
The uncertainty surrounding Worcester’s future has led Saracens to bring forward their pre-season friendly against Ampthill to September 4 to ensure they are ready to play on the opening weekend of the Premiership season.
Saracens currently have a bye in the first round, to be played September 9-11, but if Worcester were to drop out of the league then the Premiership would return to a 12-team division.
“Sadly with ongoing uncertainty around Worcester Warriors, we have moved our friendly as we may have to be ready to play our opening Premiership match earlier than scheduled,” the club said.
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Players have since announced they won't play as they haven't been paid
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Article in today's (31/08) Daily Telegraph timed @ 1702hrs:
Worcester Warriors' players are due to be paid their salaries for August in full, after additional funding was secured for the struggling club with little over a week to go until the start of the new Gallagher Premiership season.
The resulting payments will mean Worcester's players remain contracted to the club for the next month before their first game of the season at London Irish next Saturday. Following the latest development the chances of the new Premiership season starting as planned with all 13 clubs were described as "positive" by one senior source on Wednesday night.
Worcester's staff will also be paid 65 per cent of their monthly salaries, with the remaining balance due in the next few days through funding from another source, according to a letter sent to staff by Colin Goldring, one of Worcester's co-owners, which has been seen by Telegraph Sport.
Staff were informed that the funding for 65 per cent of their salaries was confirmed, but the payments were being processed individually and therefore may take time.
Players and staff had previously not been paid after the club's accounts were frozen following an HMRC petition as the result of a late tax bill.
The letter from Goldring adds that progress is being made with rescue solutions for the club, "without the need for an administration".
The news came hours after Worcester's director of rugby, Steve Diamond, announced they had pulled out of Friday's pre-season friendly against Glasgow Warriors, with Diamond claiming it would be "unethical" for players to risk sustaining injuries playing for the club while they were unpaid.
Worcester were poised to play their only pre-season fixture against Glasgow, with the trip and accommodation paid for by the club's main sponsor, Adam Hewitt.
However in a statement tweeted by Diamond, it was confirmed that the fixture had been cancelled, citing the need for players to avoid injury given their future employment, at the time, was in doubt.
"Together we have been forced to take the hugely frustrating and disappointing decision not to travel to Inverness tomorrow for our pre-season fixture against Glasgow Warriors on Friday, as players and staff wages remain unpaid the squad have worked hard throughout pre-season and are bitterly disappointed to be put in this position," the statement read.
"We express our deep sorrow to our hosts Glasgow Warriors who we hope understand the unique and worrying situation we find ourselves in.
"We would like to thank Adam Hewitt for his overwhelming generosity in offering to fund the trip.
"It simply isn't feasible to play when futures remain uncertain and a decision had to be taken today. It is unethical for professional players to play a full on game with the risk of injury and the real possibility of no employment to follow.
"We thank everyone for their continued support and for uniting behind us all – together."
Worcester players Kyle Hatherell, Fin Smith and Duhan van der Merwe had been linked with moves away from the club, with Diamond telling Telegraph Sport earlier this week that "five or six players that have had offers from other clubs".
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It appears none of the Worcester squad were paid after all as promised. Players apparently preparing to issue breach of contract letters later today.
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D. Tel Sport Section (Ben Coles) page 12 states all players paid their salaries for August in full after additional funding secured. Players remain contracted for the next full month. Non-playing staff receive 65% from a different funding source, with remaining 35% to follow. I hope this statement is correct. At least it would give them breathing space for a while. Crossed fingers.
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The money didn't appear in their accounts.
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Latest (1039hrs, 1/09) from the Daily Telegraph.
Worcester players ready to submit breach of contract notices after remaining unpaid
Worcester Warriors players are preparing to submit letters to serve the club with a notice of breach of contract after they were not paid their August wages.
Telegraph Sport understands that players had yet to receive their wages on Thursday morning, despite assurances from the club’s owners that funding had been found to pay them for the last month.
An already anxious situation has grown more tense because players and staff are now allowed to serve notice of a breach of contract, which would allow them to leave the club within 14 days if wages are not settled, with meetings taking place among the club hierarchy.
Although Premiership Rugby officials are confident that the matter has been resolved and are preparing to begin the season with all 13 teams, multiple sources have indicated that players are ready to submit breach of contract letters en masse.
With the start of the new season imminent, with Worcester due to face London Irish on Sep 10, the prospect of a player exodus – and perhaps a 12-team Premiership schedule – would appear to be becoming more real by the hour.
Simon Massie-Taylor, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby Limited, opened the Premiership launch by explaining that the delay in Worcester’s payroll had been caused by issues stemming from the HMRC winding-up petition and Worcester's frozen bank accounts.
He confirmed that the Premiership would begin as a 13-team competition with London Irish hosting Worcester next weekend in round one, but stressed that Warriors “were not out of the woods yet”.
Discussions regarding the club’s ownership and investment will continue and Massie-Taylor admitted that the next month will be crucial for the club’s future.
Steve Diamond, Worcester’s director of rugby, is due to attend the Premiership’s launch event at Twickenham today. According to sources, he has remained a vital figurehead for players and staff.
Last night, reflecting the sentiment of what had seemed a positive day in Warriors’ fight for survival, Diamond thanked Colin Goldring and Jason Whittingham for apparently finding the resources to pay players their full salaries and staff 65 per cent of salaries, which will be topped up to 100 per cent within five days.
“I would like to confirm having spoken to our owners, all players are paid and all rugby and non-rugby staff will be paid fully over the next few days,” Diamond tweeted. “Thanks go to Colin & Jason. We must prepare for Irish in 10 days. All positive energy from now on please.”
In a club statement issued on Thursday to all staff, Whittingham was quoted as saying: “I’m pleased to say that we have secured funds. We will fulfil the terms of our players' contracts and pay them in full for August today. This is of course crucial in retaining our talented squad for this season.”
This morning’s developments, however, represent a major setback. Reports have suggested that players have been told that they will receive the money by noon, but that prospect remains unclear and it is this contradiction that has caused further friction. It is also unclear whether staff have received the 65 per cent share of their salary yet.[/b]
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Report in Telegraph that Worcester Ladies team have been told to avoid contact training in case they get injured.
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The thing is, with instant bank transfers these days, the old 'cheques in the post' promise doesn't wash. There is the possibility that a number of players have firm offers in the event that they can break their contract. By not being paid by midnight last night, they now have that right. Not all will want to go, but how many will I wonder? Enough to torpedo attempts to carry on?
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From Chris Jones on the Beeb, (1900hrs 1/09)
Players now attempting to quit troubled Premiership club over unpaid wages
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62752733 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62752733)
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Players, coaches and staff flood social media over situation at club
Report from Chris Jones this afternoon (2/09)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62768732 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62768732)
Still not been paid.
And
Morecambe owner Bond Group Investments has put the League One club up for sale, with Jason Whittingham and Colin Goldring stepping down from the board.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62768939 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62768939)
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The more you read the more you think they have been right royally fooked.
PRL dodged doing anything yesterday to save themselves.
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I suspect I know what the issue is. The players are creditors. Whatever funds that become available to the club to pay them, in whatever manner, will be frozen to the benefit of all creditors. That is the law, and the banks, if they allowed the payments to happen, could face prosecution. In any other business facing such a financial position, only an administrator could persuade a bank to allow the funds through. The only way round this would be to make cash payments. Given the size of the bill, no bank is going to allow a withdrawal that large, and no bank would allow the players to deposit such large sums.
Rock, meet hard place. It all comes down to this. The directors should have placed the club in to administration. Weeks ago. I have little doubt they will face prosecution for not doing so already. That they still not do so, with every day that passes, is truly puzzling. As this weekend progresses, more and more players will trigger the release clause in their contracts. The wheels will start to come off rather quickly.
Very, very sad for supporters and players and support staff. That this has not happened to more professional clubs (football and rugby) is probably down to a lot of goodwill on the part of owners. A lot of people in government have their heads truly buried deep in the sand, hoping it will all go away. But it won't. This runaway train has a lot of steam yet.
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From Rugby inside Line 2 hours ago:
Statement from @premrugby and @EnglandRugby on Worcester:
“As a result of assurances provided on payment of salaries and insurance cover they are able to participate in Premiership Rugby.”
Worcester will be playing London Irish on Saturday.
No preseason games under the belt.
This is crazy.
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If they start the season and then fold it’s going to be carnage.
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If they start the season and then fold it’s going to be carnage.
Plus cost us with them being our Christmas match.
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Indeed. Just hope they stay afloat
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If they start the season and then fold it’s going to be carnage.
And heads at the top of both those organisations will need to roll. Players will get serious injuries in meaningless games which could (should?) lead to law suits, clubs will have wasted money on travel, fans likewise and the game brought in to disrepute.
But of course we all know what will happen, we’ll be told lessons have been learned and more people will fail upwards.
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If they start the season and then fold it’s going to be carnage.
And heads at the top of both those organisations will need to roll. Players will get serious injuries in meaningless games which could (should?) lead to law suits, clubs will have wasted money on travel, fans likewise and the game brought in to disrepute.
But of course we all know what will happen, we’ll be told lessons have been learned and more people will fail upwards.
I wonder, considering the circumstances, If Irish can justifiably refuse to play them?
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Worcester Warriors focused on matters on the pitch after salaries finally paid
Worcester Warriors' on-field preparations for their Premiership opener at London Irish on Saturday have accelerated with the news that most, if not all, of the playing squad have finally received their August salary payments.
Telegraph Sport reported on Friday that payments from Worcester’s owners, Colin Goldring and Jason Whittingham, had started to land in players' accounts that night, two days late, on the same day that the duo had put League One football team Morecambe up for sale, stepping back from their positions on the board of directors in the process.
With the start of the Premiership schedule now just under one week away, however, the release of funds to the players has meant that full focus can turn to the Warriors' opener at the Brentford Community Stadium on September 10. The August payments now mean that any Warrior hoping to leave the club contractually cannot do so for another six weeks - if another salary payment is missed - unless the club were to fall into administration.
It is understood, too, that the prospect of a playing boycott while the present owners remain in charge, which was reported at the end of last week, is highly unlikely.
A well-placed source at the Warriors conceded that “the mood is obviously a bit fractious around camp towards the situation and the owner”. They stressed, though, that the players remained “very much committed to each other, the staff and the fans”.
Steve Diamond had targeted a top-eight berth and qualification for the Champions Cup prior to HMRC issuing Worcester with a winding-up petition. It was that news, which was broken by Telegraph Sport, that intensified the disruption. And yet, players were described as “ready for next weekend mentally” and poised for “a big week to hit this Premiership campaign well”.
On their last visit to Brentford, in May, Warriors drew 25-25 with Irish but lifted the Premiership Rugby Cup after extra-time by virtue of having outscored the Exiles by three tries to one during the 80 minutes.
It was said that the playing group, which is thought to be unified under Diamond, is eager “to start looking up and forward to the future of what we can achieve together and look up the table.”
A Premiership Rugby spokesperson reiterated on Saturday that the Rugby Football Union and Premiership Rugby had remained “in regular dialogue” with Worcester as well as the Rugby Players’ Association (RPA) and the Department of Digital, Culture, Media and Sport.
"As a result of assurances provided on payment of salaries and insurance cover Worcester Warriors are able to participate in Premiership Rugby,” read the statement. “We will continue to work together to provide the owners with the best opportunity for developing their future sustainability plans."
Will their salaries continue to be paid and on time? Which side will turn up at Brentford?
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Premiership clubs rack up more than £500MILLION in debt https://mol.im/a/11177209 via https://dailym.ai/android
Not looking good across the board.
Another article has the LI owner offering to give away the club for free.
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And the club with the biggest debt is Wasps. £112m total, £9.5m of which is to HMRC.
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And the club with the biggest debt is Wasps. £112m total, £9.5m of which is to HMRC.
Note - unlike the rest Wasps figures are on the complex entity not the rugby club like the other clubs generally. Big figure.
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Big figure if correct.
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I'm reliably informed that the figures quoted aren't accurate.
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Someone somewhere is as bad at maths as I am. By the sound of it a great deal worse.
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Premiership clubs rack up more than £500MILLION in debt https://mol.im/a/11177209 via https://dailym.ai/android
Not looking good across the board.
Another article has the LI owner offering to give away the club for free.
Total debt without total assets is pretty meaningless - I’d be interested to see a complete table. But anyone that describes deferred tax as a ‘tax debt’ (it’s not) isn’t that savvy in that department.
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Is this the table you are after?
https://twitter.com/rreesrugby/status/1566352816796581888?s=21&t=OasKNtkCCVWpfUH_oobxEQ
If that figure is true then as the old saying goes, Wasps aren’t in trouble, the banks are.
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Is this the table you are after?
https://twitter.com/rreesrugby/status/1566352816796581888?s=21&t=OasKNtkCCVWpfUH_oobxEQ
If that figure is true then as the old saying goes, Wasps aren’t in trouble, the banks are.
So which bank is willing to lend to cover the bond repayments. It’s not new debt (if assuming is just the £35m) but presumably wouldn’t be interest only, as the bonds were (until redemption date). At 10% pa interest with repayment over 40 years, it would cost an additional £1.3m pa. That’s a lot of money given the current annual losses.
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That’s assuming the whole £35m is being borrowed. Reality is most sports teams now live way outside of their income and rely on benefactors. It’s just rugby’s turn in the spotlight.
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Shugs, do you think DR is going to put more money in? He has already loaned £18m.
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Firstly that figure is not accurate, not even close in reality. And yes Derek is committed to the future of the club. Or at least he was this morning.
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Shugs, do you think DR is going to put more money in? He has already loaned £18m.
I don’t think he’ll need to.
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Plus 1, big time.
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I wonder where the balance of £35m is going to come from if not entirely a loan then. Sale of equity perhaps?
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Firstly that figure is not accurate, not even close in reality. And yes Derek is committed to the future of the club. Or at least he was this morning.
That is reassuring!!!!
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Said it on a previous thread in a previous week on a similar thread but it’s time for what happens on the pitch to do the talking now.
Big responsibility on Blackett, his team and the squad now to take charge of what our column inches discuss now.
I don’t normally comment on posts discussing bonds, debt etc but my very naive view is that if the wasps product is good and can be sustained over the next few years and it’s putting bums on seats then then the rest should sort itself out.
Thank you yet again Derek and friends, Lee… over to you
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Daily Telegraph
Worcester co-owners hit back at MPs' call to put club into administration
Colin Goldring and Jason Whittingham claim three sets of buyers are in discussions to take over the Premiership club
By Charlie Morgan, Senior Rugby Writer5 September 2022 • 8:13pm
Colin Goldring and Jason Whittingham, Worcester Warriors’ co-owners, have hit back at local MPs for calling for the club to be put into administration, claiming that a potential buyer is “moving at an especially rapid pace”.
This comes after another dramatic day on which it emerged that Worcester face relegation if they go down the administration route because the Rugby Football Union’s deadline for the new season has now passed.
The MPs speaking out were Robin Walker, Harriett Baldwin, Rachel Maclean and Mark Garnier, whose constituencies are in the area surrounding Sixways, and they had implored the Department of Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) to intervene.
Their belief is that immediate administration would be the best course of action to keep Worcester in the top flight. But what has clouded the issue is that the RFU's threshold for the current season to begin is understood to have been last Saturday, September 3 – even though the Premiership does not start until the coming weekend.
Under the regulations, a club can be docked 35 points if they go into administration between seasons. If they go into administration during a season, though, automatic relegation is on the cards.
Worcester could be able to apply for their plight to be considered as a “no-fault insolvency event”. In this case, the RFU would have the freedom to waive any punishment. Were Goldring and Whittingham to find a buyer and complete a sale without the club going into liquidation or administration, Warriors would not be relegated.
The four MPs, in a joint statement, said that “enough is enough” and that “rapid action” was vital to secure top-flight rugby union for their local Premiership club amid “appalling mismanagement”.
Worcester’s co-owners responded hours later saying they were “disappointed” with the politicians’ arguments.
'Three sets of buyers are in discussions'
“We would like to make it clear that we have kept the DCMS fully informed about the financial situation at Worcester Warriors,” the owners wrote.
“They are aware of the options which are on the table to save the club together with the disastrous implications posed to the club by any administration, in particular the risk of losing the club’s P-share. [A P-share entitles club owners to a greater cut of revenue from broadcasting and other central streams generated by the Premiership].
“The DCMS has been very supportive every step of the way and we thank them for their continued support and cooperation. The DCMS knows that three sets of buyers are in discussions with us. All three buyers are serious propositions and all the deals being considered would avoid the club going into administration. One of the buyers is moving at an especially rapid pace.”
Goldring and Whittingham also claimed that there had “no attempt at engagement whatsoever” from local MPs and reiterated their position with regard to the prospect of administration.
“Avoiding administration is in the best interests of the club’s creditors, not to mention its players and staff,” they said. “Pursuing a deal which includes payment to all creditors as well as working capital best serves the club and the local community. Therefore, the DCMS has been giving us the time to pursue viable options.
“On the other hand, forcing Worcester Warriors into administration as these MPs have asked risks the club losing its players and staff, losing its P share, wiping off the debt owed to local businesses and to HMRC, and incurring severe RFU sanctions.”
“We continue to work tirelessly on a solution to keep all aspects of Worcester Warriors in business, able to pay its debts, and able to carve out a future which holds success both on and off the pitch.
“We understand that we are under scrutiny and that our actions are being questioned. Our best response to this is to stay focused and put all our time and energy into getting the best deal for the club, its players, staff, partners, sponsors and creditors across the line – and that is what we continue to do.”
Meanwhile, London Irish chief executive Mark Bensted has called for the wider rugby community to attend Saturday's match between his club and Worcester to show their support for Warriors' players and staff following a turbulent few weeks.
“In difficult times like these, it is crucial that everyone involved in the sport rallies round to support their clubs and to show acts of solidarity wherever possible" said Bensted.
“I would very much like to encourage you all – supporters of both clubs and the wider rugby family, including supporters of Harlequins, Saracens and Richmond who don’t have a home match this weekend – to attend the game on Saturday in what promises to be a special occasion.
“All Worcester Warriors staff, players and supporters will feel a very warm London Irish welcome this Saturday, and I would encourage the wider rugby community to come along and show their respect and appreciation for them all.”
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An interesting view on why the owners really aren't keen on administration: https://twitter.com/FoyChris/status/1566882940537212931?t=QeeBsiKm7E_zNYJrj6Kvaw&s=19
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What's going on now? Article in today's Daily Telegraph.
Worcester Warriors twist after application submitted to transfer ownership of Sixways
Land Registry documents seen by Telegraph Sport detail move to switch the site to a new company as takeover talks continue
The fate of crisis club Worcester Warriors took another twist on Tuesday after it emerged an application has been made to transfer ownership of the Sixways Stadium and the surrounding land to a new company.
Land Registry documents seen by Telegraph Sport detail an application made on Friday to transfer the deeds for Sixways and seven other parcels of land around the stadium to a company called Triangle Estate & Petroleum Limited. The managing director is listed as Peter Feathersone, who appears to have had no previous involvement in rugby union.
Last month, it emerged that the club’s owners Colin Goldring and Jason Whittingham had sold the land around the stadium to companies they owned leading to fears that they were asset-stripping their own club, a claim they have vehemently denied.
On Monday night, Goldring and Whittingham claimed that talks with a potential buyer were “moving at an especially rapid pace.” Several club insiders believe that Triangle is one of the prospective buyers with the property transfer, which is yet to go through, being the first step in a takeover. Former Worcester chief executive Jim O’Toole heads a rival consortium and there is a third interested party according to Goldring and Whittingham.
Hours after a group of local MPs issued a statement calling for the Department of Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) to place the club into administration, Goldring and Whittingham insisted that would be the worst course of action for the club. Telegraph Sport understands their debt is around £30million and sources close to the consortium led by O’Toole believe administration is the only possible outcome to save the club in the long run.
On the pitch, Worcester are scheduled to start the Premiership season away to London Irish on Saturday. While director of rugby Steve Diamond has claimed kicking off their opening game is their “greatest hurdle”, an even bigger challenge may await in staging their first home match against Exeter Chiefs on Sep 18.
Worcester are in debt to a number of creditors, including utility companies, who are essential to the staging of a home match. A proportion of the off-field staff have also stopped working since their wages were not paid on time.
Several internal sources cast doubt on whether Worcester would be able to bring these suppliers and staff back on board in time for the Exeter game. “A lot of people around here have been stiffed by the club,” one source said. “No one is going to accept being paid next month when wages are being paid on time. Everyone will be saying show me the money and quite rightly. Where they get that money from I have no idea.”
The cost of staging a home match is thought to be a six-figure sum while on Tuesday the club held a meeting about the outgoings necessary to fund a game. However, Premiership Rugby reiterated it has received “detailed assurances” from the club that they have the contracts in place necessary to host a full house at Sixways.
Worcester’s owners were unavailable for comment when approached by Telegraph Sport.
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Some staff still yet to be paid August wages despite assurances
Chris Jones from the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62820629 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62820629)
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So the current Worcester owners have given “detailed assurances” that they will be ready for the first match. A case of seeing is believing when the teams runs on to the field.
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I think they may manage the first game, LI away, but the test will come when they play Exe at home for the following game.
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There was a report on Warriors on BBC TV Midlands News this evening, but I only caught the closing bit.
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From the Beeb:
Steve Diamond warns club are in 'dire position' but owners still hope for new investment
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62862490 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62862490)
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From this morning's Times. Does not look good.
Worcester Warriors at risk of going bust with takeover deal ‘set to collapse’
A bid for the club is believed to be ‘miles away’ from what the co-owners want
Alex Lowe, Rugby Correspondent
Sunday September 11 2022, 7.30pm, The Times
Worcester Warriors are at risk of going bust after a takeover deal to secure the club’s future was left on the brink of collapse because of financial demands being made by the co-owners.
This latest setback raises immediate concerns as to whether Worcester will have enough funds to stage their first home game of the Premiership season, against Exeter Chiefs, on Sunday.
Jason Whittingham and Colin Goldring, the co-owners, have been in negotiations since the end of last week with an investor who was prepared to take on the club’s debts, which amount to about £25 million, and has the funds to run Worcester as a going concern for a number of years.
Whittingham told the BBC last week that “the preservation of rugby” was his only priority as he sought a buyer for Worcester and to keep the club out of administration. He said negotiations with interested parties were “not about throwing millions about”.
A bid for the club, which included the stadium and the land, was submitted on Sunday. It included financial terms for Whittingham and Goldring that are believed to be “miles away” from what the co-owners wanted.
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The Times understands the potential investors are close to walking away. Whittingham denied that the deal had fallen through and said he was still working through the process.
Worcester face a winding-up court hearing on October 6 over a £6 million tax bill and the club have been unable to fulfil the August payroll in its entirety. The club took out a £14 million long-term loan from the government during the pandemic and also owe money to local suppliers, agents and a rival club.
Having opened their season with a defeat away to London Irish on Saturday night, Worcester have two home fixtures in six days that would generate critical funds — if the club can find a way of staging those games.
Staff who were paid 65 per cent of their August salaries are still owed the balance, while some employees have not received anything. The club has to find that money this week in addition to the match-day operating costs of about £120,000 if the Exeter game is to go ahead.
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Simon Massie-Taylor, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby, confirmed that there were genuine fears that Worcester could go to the wall. “The next few weeks are absolutely crucial in determining whether they can find a long-term buyer and financial backer for the club,” he said. “We have got less than a month for the club to find a solution to the winding-up petition. We and the RFU are trying to support them through that process. We are not in a position to support them financially. It is an independent business that needs to find its own solution.”
Steve Diamond, Worcester’s director of rugby, had been cautious on Saturday when discussing the prospect of a takeover being completed.
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Oh dear. Sounds ominous. Whatever the reality of our own financial predicament, at least we have an owner who has the club's best interests at heart, unlike this pair of cowboys.
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Rumours are that the owners want somewhere in the region of £7m for the club. They also want to avoid administration as it means that a) they'll end up with next to nothing and b) all the asset stripping will be under a microscope and won't look good for them at all. DCMS really need to step in and put the club in administration sooner rather than later or there will be no club to save.
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Another week of contact free training and so undercooked for their game against Chiefs.
If they survive it will have a bearing on the final table. Irish would probably have won against a well prepared team, as would Chiefs, but you just never know. And it’s likely to be another couple of matches until they’re up to match fitness.
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Wow!
https://www.awwrfc.com/statement/
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Wow!
https://www.awwrfc.com/statement/
Looks like O'Toole thinks the current owners are trying to screw the club too.
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Wow!
https://www.awwrfc.com/statement/
Looks like O'Toole thinks the current owners are trying to screw the club too.
Looks like the current owners will be facing jail time for failing to do their duty. The club is insolvent (defined not by losses but by its legal definition, which is 'being unable to meet their detbs as and when they fall due'). No buyer now, no knights on white chargers.
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The owners are now saying they have agreed a sale for the club that includes the expenses of this week's game.
Funny this comes out after the O'Toole statement.
What a bloody mess.
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Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis, timed 1930, 12/09
I have been informed that Worcester’s owners have agreed terms with an interested party for the sale of the club.
Now waiting for legal confirmation (this evening) & the buyers will cover costs for upcoming weekend and remaining unpaid wages of staff.
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Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis, timed 1930, 12/09
I have been informed that Worcester’s owners have agreed terms with an interested party for the sale of the club.
Now waiting for legal confirmation (this evening) & the buyers will cover costs for upcoming weekend and remaining unpaid wages of staff.
Good news at last. Now to hear something concrete about the bonds for Wasps, and all will be right with the world.
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NWW makes a good point. Trading while insolvent is a serious offence. The normal route to protect against this is to go into administration to give time to find a buyer.
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Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis, timed 1930, 12/09
I have been informed that Worcester’s owners have agreed terms with an interested party for the sale of the club.
Now waiting for legal confirmation (this evening) & the buyers will cover costs for upcoming weekend and remaining unpaid wages of staff.
Good news at last. Now to hear something concrete about the bonds for Wasps, and all will be right with the world.
I don't think we have heard the last of this...given all the shenanigans around transferring ownership of various assets to these new companies, I would worry that due diligence will fall through. It seems to be an open secret that the owners are afraid of the scrutiny that admin would bring, so who would buy the club with a great suspicion over the assets the club has, and when they could pick it up cheaper and with a clear understanding of what they would get if the waited for admin). I wonder if the 'buyers' are closely involved with the current owners? I could see if the ground isn't part of the sale that they will be charged out of Sixways in the future.
The best option for the club has to be admin to purge it of their owners before they can further asset strip.
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Great news it's starting to sound positive for Worcester - if not the current owners.
If they can get this sorted, and we can resolve the bond issue, then we can all just focus on the rugby!
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Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis, timed 1930, 12/09
I have been informed that Worcester’s owners have agreed terms with an interested party for the sale of the club.
Now waiting for legal confirmation (this evening) & the buyers will cover costs for upcoming weekend and remaining unpaid wages of staff.
Good news at last. Now to hear something concrete about the bonds for Wasps, and all will be right with the world.
I don't think we have heard the last of this...given all the shenanigans around transferring ownership of various assets to these new companies, I would worry that due diligence will fall through. It seems to be an open secret that the owners are afraid of the scrutiny that admin would bring, so who would buy the club with a great suspicion over the assets the club has, and when they could pick it up cheaper and with a clear understanding of what they would get if the waited for admin). I wonder if the 'buyers' are closely involved with the current owners? I could see if the ground isn't part of the sale that they will be charged out of Sixways in the future.
The best option for the club has to be admin to purge it of their owners before they can further asset strip.
Any contract agreed is likely to include a due diligence clause, which would likely kill the deal. If I were a potential buyer, I would insist all assets found in that due diligence check to have been passed away to a third party, are transferred back. It strikes me that Wasps have done the same thing with the Training Ground and the attached academy housing (which are separate properties).
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Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis, timed 1930, 12/09
I have been informed that Worcester’s owners have agreed terms with an interested party for the sale of the club.
Now waiting for legal confirmation (this evening) & the buyers will cover costs for upcoming weekend and remaining unpaid wages of staff.
Good news at last. Now to hear something concrete about the bonds for Wasps, and all will be right with the world.
I don't think we have heard the last of this...given all the shenanigans around transferring ownership of various assets to these new companies, I would worry that due diligence will fall through. It seems to be an open secret that the owners are afraid of the scrutiny that admin would bring, so who would buy the club with a great suspicion over the assets the club has, and when they could pick it up cheaper and with a clear understanding of what they would get if the waited for admin). I wonder if the 'buyers' are closely involved with the current owners? I could see if the ground isn't part of the sale that they will be charged out of Sixways in the future.
The best option for the club has to be admin to purge it of their owners before they can further asset strip.
Any contract agreed is likely to include a due diligence clause, which would likely kill the deal. If I were a potential buyer, I would insist all assets found in that due diligence check to have been passed away to a third party, are transferred back. It strikes me that Wasps have done the same thing with the Training Ground and the attached academy housing (which are separate properties).
That is far more succinct than how I put it. It strikes me (having watched Notts County being passed from one dodgy operator to another) that when a club is in this situation the group that swoops in 'to save the day' does not normally have the club's best interests at heart but see an opportunity to make some money (usually in developing the site and / or surroundings. It rarely ends well...Notts have lurched from Administration, to operating on a shoestring, to a fraudster, to someone completely not understanding the mess the club was in (in that case I think they tried to do the best for the club but just were very naïve) to a chancer finally to a couple of Danish guys who are running it for the long term sustainability. Ironically they had tried to buy the club several times in the past but had been pushed aside by the naïve one and the chancer, and picked it up at a far cheaper price (albeit 2 divisions lower and in a total shambles).
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This all reminds me of what happened to Coventry Rugby Club back when they were a top team (and when they played at Coundon Road), taken over by a dodgy geezer and went spiralling downhill.
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Just seen on Twitter that as of 10:30 they hadn't signed Heads of Terms so all the buyers are likely to have seen is a terms sheet and as others have said this implies that DD hasn't started yet.
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Club statement from Worcester Warriors.
https://warriors.co.uk/2022/09/13/club-statement-9/ (https://warriors.co.uk/2022/09/13/club-statement-9/)
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Pretty clear that if suppliers aren’t paid by the close of play tonight (and staff too), Worcester’s home @premrugby match v Exeter on Sunday won’t be able to take place, logistically. This proud club remains on a knife edge. @btsportrugby
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Steve Diamond on alleged new bid to buy Worcester: “These people have got to deliver. If it turns out to be a cock & bull story, that’ll be out in the wash this w/e cos we wont be playing…and I won’t be here sitting in front of you next week.” @btsportrugby
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that's a lot of pressure on the buyers, if they get rushed into signing without a full due diligence & miss something important it could all end up in even more of a mess!
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Looks like the Director of rugby is calling the owners bs out to me.
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Looks like the Director of rugby is calling the owners bs out to me.
True.
But, there is no way the new 'owners' will want to stump that money up before everything is done and dusted, and there is no way that is happening quickly. This is a lot of money we are talking about.
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you do wonder whether the current owners are taking this down to the wire to try & bounce the buyers into a purchase without checking all the cupboards for skeletons?
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you do wonder whether the current owners are taking this down to the wire to try & bounce the buyers into a purchase without checking all the cupboards for skeletons?
I have no doubt...if it falls through they will also blame the buyer to try and deflect criticism.
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you do wonder whether the current owners are taking this down to the wire to try & bounce the buyers into a purchase without checking all the cupboards for skeletons?
I have no doubt...if it falls through they will also blame the buyer to try and deflect criticism.
Except, at this point, no one is believing them, not a word that they say.
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you do wonder whether the current owners are taking this down to the wire to try & bounce the buyers into a purchase without checking all the cupboards for skeletons?
I have no doubt...if it falls through they will also blame the buyer to try and deflect criticism.
Except, at this point, no one is believing them, not a word that they say.
True, but I wonder if they are self aware enough to realise that? or care?
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you do wonder whether the current owners are taking this down to the wire to try & bounce the buyers into a purchase without checking all the cupboards for skeletons?
I have no doubt...if it falls through they will also blame the buyer to try and deflect criticism.
Except, at this point, no one is believing them, not a word that they say.
True, but I wonder if they are self aware enough to realise that? or care?
Their problem is that staff, players, coaches and suppliers don't believe them. Some of the fans might. The media will.
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In this evening's Guardian.
Worcester’s home game against Exeter in doubt over unpaid wages and bills
Owners admit sale of Premiership club yet to be completed
Some staff members yet to receive any of August’s wages
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/14/worcesters-home-game-against-exeter-in-doubt-over-unpaid-wages-and-bills (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/14/worcesters-home-game-against-exeter-in-doubt-over-unpaid-wages-and-bills)
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FWIW: Fissler has tweeted:
"Just been told club medics will pull the plug on Worcester’s game with Exeter on Sunday unless they get the 40 per cent of wages they are owed and that club staff could ramp up pressure on owners by refusing to work."
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FWIW: Fissler has tweeted:
"Just been told club medics will pull the plug on Worcester’s game with Exeter on Sunday unless they get the 40 per cent of wages they are owed and that club staff could ramp up pressure on owners by refusing to work."
I think this is exactly what they have to do. It's pretty clear that the current owners haven't been fully transparent and above board and won't act unless forced into it.
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Are there any penalties for forfitting the game under these sorts of circumstances under the governing laws of the competition? Obviously Exe will gte the points and the walkover, but are there any repercussions for Worcester as a club like points deductions?
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General feeling this lunchtime in regards the Warriors is that the deal to sell the club is very close to being completed.
But understand focus is more on trying to get this weekend’s game on at the moment. Only three days out from Warriors vs Exeter. #COYW #together
From Marcello.
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Way back in this discussion, I said the Chiefs game would be crunch time, and it still is.
If you were a food reseller, would you be getting stock in for that game? If you were the security sub-contractor, would you be rostering staff, committing to paying them this weekend, especially if you haven't been paid for the last couple of games of last season? And so on.
Throwing good money after bad.
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So Wi-Fi going down at Sixways and email system has also gone down. What is going to happen next before someone makes a decision?
Staff have now reached breaking point and at this point, I wouldn’t rule out a full blown walkout/protest. #COYW
The phones have also gone down at the Academy.I worked at a place this happened,2 hours later the bailiffs were at the door.
It doesn't look good at all.
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Now is the time for the Prem to say they won’t punish Worcester if anyone buys the club from the Administrator. I know it’s condemning Worcester to administration but this death of a thousand cuts has to be worse.
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Instead... https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1570493957406072834?t=imQ6xJYeuK6OYJtQGkfUTw&s=19
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Chris Foy again
Breaking: RFU confirm they have written to Worcester warning that the club could be suspended from all competitions from midday tomorrow if assurances not received re funding and ability to stage matches. Could lead to expulsion in due course.
RFU as quick as ever.
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Maybe a deadline is what's needed for the owners to stop messing about, sell the club and go away.
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Maybe a deadline is what's needed for the owners to stop messing about, sell the club and go away.
It is too late at this stage to sell the club. Administration is their only choice, and the administrators can sell the club. But. They should have placed it into administration well over a month ago, and the only reason not to was to try and put money in their own pockets. There will or should be legal action taken against these guys, as they have clearly not done what they are required by law to do. It will take years, but it should happen.
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It always amazes me how many company directors are either ignorant of the law or think that they are above the law, either the Companies act or precedent.
Once a company is heading to insolvency (i.e. unable to meet debts as they fall due) then directors responsibilities are to creditors as a whole - i.e. they cannot take action that treats one group of creditors (including themselves) more preferably than any other group. Hence hiving off assets - in this case the land surrounding Sixways in the recent past was probably illegal (unless done at market value and with the agreement of any charge holders) and could potentially be reversed if agreed between an administrator and the recipients, who may of course be hoping to avoid action against themselves.
Certainly something that an administrator should look at. The administrators report would be interested reading
It certainly looks as if the current owners are running scared of what an administration might bring even though it is probably the best option for Warriors with immedeate "pre-pack" sale.
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Well I think it's clear that Warriors cannot continue stumbling from game to game. they.ve been issued with an ultimatum by the RFU that they must prove by midday today (in about 45 minutes time) that they have the means to host matches at Sixways. The gist of this ultimatum is as follows:
The RFU has written to Worcester Warriors to confirm they will be immediately suspended from all competitions, including the Gallagher Premiership, Allianz Premier 15s and Allianz Cup if assurances as to the ability to safely hold matches at Sixways Stadium are not provided by 12 noon on Sept 16. This includes evidence that the local authority has issued a General Safety Certificate, and written confirmation of medical provision.”
It shouldn't be long now.
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Post from ROLLO (warriors supporter) on Shedweb.
"RFU meeting noon
Announcement 13.00 hrs
Team announcement delayed until 14.00 hrs
I have been up to Sixways this morning, there is some activity."
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There’s no long grass left, it decision time. If no new owners it has to be the end for Worcester with these owners, it’s bring the game in to disrepute.
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I wonder.......
Not Worcester related specifically but the RFU have just confirmed they have lowered the minimum ground requirements for promoted clubs down to 5,000 from 10,000.
Hope for Ealing. Would still have to provide they have a contractor in place to make it up to 10K.
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Being reported that the game is ON.
Not sure what the wider implications are as yet, but the fixture looks to be going ahead.
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Being reported that the game is ON.
Not sure what the wider implications are as yet, but the fixture looks to be going ahead.
Of course, all the RFU asked for was 'assurances'. What actually happens is another thing.
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If the game is on the staff at Worcester deserve one hell of a pat on the back.
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Tweet from Alistair Eykin.
https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1570748152491413504/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1570748152491413504/photo/1)
Is this going to continue for every weekend now?
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2 Staff all confirmed they will work on Sunday, despite all the lies, broken promises and lack of communication. They have taken it on themselves to get the game on #coyw heroic from @WorcsWarriors
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Ah. Now I understand. The RFU only wanted to know if they had a safety certificate.
Not whether any workers or staff will turn up. Not whether any players will turn up. Not whether a doctor, medical staff or ambulances will be there, and so on. Just that they have the certificate. The paper is all they were concerned about. Because, that ONE A4 sheet of paper proves beyond any reasonable doubt that is is well at the club.
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Operation arse cover initiated
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Seen a social media post from staff saying that many haven't been paid either at all, or all their salaries, but they are prepared to work this weekend for the games to go ahead on the basis that a take over is close. Very unhappy with the current owners & their lack of communication on whats happening!
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This was posted on the Warriors' official twitter then deleted (don't know why).
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What a fukcign mess they are in. I don't think goodwill will get them anywhere with those owners.
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https://twitter.com/jameswhile/status/1570805537083895812?t=LvkfzDlFahhSHnpD1Hpj4A&s=19
BREAKING Word from within @WorcsWarriors that an offer was made that current owners have rejected & more £ asked for!
Staff been threatened with disciplinary action by owners over certain social media tweets expressing solidarity & celebrating workload & #together efforts #COYW
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https://twitter.com/jameswhile/status/1570805537083895812?t=LvkfzDlFahhSHnpD1Hpj4A&s=19
BREAKING Word from within @WorcsWarriors that an offer was made that current owners have rejected & more £ asked for!
Staff been threatened with disciplinary action by owners over certain social media tweets expressing solidarity & celebrating workload & #together efforts #COYW
Just because the staff have agreed collectively to come in, does not mean individuals will not find better things to do when it is clear the owners will string them along day after day, week after week.
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https://twitter.com/jameswhile/status/1570805537083895812?t=LvkfzDlFahhSHnpD1Hpj4A&s=19
BREAKING Word from within @WorcsWarriors that an offer was made that current owners have rejected & more £ asked for!
Staff been threatened with disciplinary action by owners over certain social media tweets expressing solidarity & celebrating workload & #together efforts #COYW
Just because the staff have agreed collectively to come in, does not mean individuals will not find better things to do when it is clear the owners will string them along day after day, week after week.
Good point.
My son used to manage a big charity furniture shop in Bath that was largely staffed by volunteers. It was a nightmare. He would arrange to do a collection from someone’s home and then the volunteer staff wouldn’t turn up. He’d regularly have to go in to cover the shop when staff didn’t turn up.
At the same time those volunteers resented him being salaried.
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The Times reports this morning. (Behind a paywall, so no link. Can't copy and paste either):
-Worcester’s match limited to 4999 spectators in one stand only due to lack of stewards
-No corporate hospitality and limited food and drink options
-No working email after it’s Microsoft licence expired, and no Wi-Fi in the stadium
And the current owners want to retain a minority interest after a sale
FUBAR.
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Nice touch this afternoon. Applause at 65 mins for the staff who’ve only received 65% of wages.
https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1571525455727022080?s=21&t=sJb-J0DfhxXlLJ3PQti5-g
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Exclusive from Bobby Bridge.
Worcester Warriors favourite Francois Hougaard opens up on former club's plight
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/exclusive-worcester-warriors-favourite-francois-25072004 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/exclusive-worcester-warriors-favourite-francois-25072004)
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The RFU and Premiership Rugby have set a deadline of midday tomorrow to prove this weekend's match can go ahead and a further deadline of 5pm on Monday to prove they have insurance, can meet payroll obligations and have a creditable plan to take the club forward or they will be suspended from all competitions.
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Groundhog Day!
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Groundhog Day!
And now for Wasps also.
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Tweet from James While approx 30 minutes ago.
BREAKING: Senior sources at @WorcsWarriors
have just informed me that Goldring and Whittingham have applied for a 72 hour extension on insurances and paperwork deadline, to, in their words, ‘assist salvaging the club’.
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So when the 72 hours is up, how many hours will they ask for then
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Are they dismantling the building and flogging off the bricks?
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Worcester are suspended
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Suspended
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63038335
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Just announced on Sky Sports Worcester suspended, sad news hopefully they find a way through these difficult times
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That is so awful and so very very unfair. Our best wishes are with you Worcester, and we hope you have a quick return to the Premiership .... with honest owners. We look forward to playing against you in the near future. Sympathies go to all the players and all the behind scenes support, and to the supporters.
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That is sad. An indictment of the leadership (or lack thereof) of Premiership, but also of the current owners. Holding out still I would suspect, but should already be in Administration, and at this rate will avoid that and go directly to Receivership.
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So will Gloucester get 5 points this weekend
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Awful news.
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Tweet from Wasps Rugby.
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Tweet from Marcello Cossali-Francis.
Breaking news this evening. The DCMS have acted upon the director’s request to place @WorcsWarriors
into administration. Owners finally cave it seems.
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Full story: https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/22645949.dcms-confirm-put-worcester-warriors-administration/
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About time. NOW the rescue can begin, and quickly I hope. The fans, players and staff deserve a future for Worcester.
If the Administrator decides to trade on in some form, he or she personally takes liability for all debts incurred from now on. That they cannot afford to do, so, it is likely a deal will be signed within hours to sell the club and the new owners can then get it all back up and running, possibly in as little as a day, and then the PRL has to decide what to do. In theory, they could play this weekend.
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Steve Diamond's message to Wasps as rugby family unites on devastating day
Report from Bobby Bridge.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/worcester-warriors-boss-steve-diamonds-25112319 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/worcester-warriors-boss-steve-diamonds-25112319)
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Any news from PRL/RFU about whether they're automatically relegated? Hopefully not of course but who knows what those blazers will do!
Presumably that'll have to be cleared up before anyone would agree to buy the club...
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Horrible news for Worcester: club, players and fans. Heart goes out to them all.
Implications for the other clubs, though, in terms of loss of scheduled revenue and forecast earnings. Gloucester have lost a home match this weekend (and are opening up the club for open training and signing / meet the players - which is a great way to use the time) and Wasps had the planned Christmas Cracker against Worcester too. Pubs and businesses around the grounds will lose a weekend too.
Hoping something can be done to salvage the club at Worcester, but with other clubs feeling the financial pinch already this won't help anyone.
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Any news from PRL/RFU about whether they're automatically relegated? Hopefully not of course but who knows what those blazers will do!
Presumably that'll have to be cleared up before anyone would agree to buy the club...
I have seen it reported somewhere that the RFU/PRL may favour a 35 point deduction rather than automatic relegation following administration. Much depends on how the coming days and weeks play out for both Worcester and Wasps, but that would potentially allow both to remain in the Premiership with no relegation planned for this season and for the Championship winners to come up as planned to give us a 14 team league.
Then we would find out how many other clubs are equally deep in the mire. A 35 point deduction in a season with no relegation will do no more than prevent those teams from realistically competing for top 4 (if it's to be top 8 for Europe again, then even that would not be beyond the realms of possibility), so hypothetically, with such a precedent in place, other clubs may see it as an opportune moment to do the same.
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Any news from PRL/RFU about whether they're automatically relegated? Hopefully not of course but who knows what those blazers will do!
Presumably that'll have to be cleared up before anyone would agree to buy the club...
If they are to be relegated, that will kill any deal. I imagine that was missing from the 'suspended' notice deliberately. I suspect they will not be relegated, but will have a points 'fine'.
Which, though the PRL will not like it, leaves other clubs some wriggle room for this year, buit I do not think the 'Covid' defence will last past this season. Use the card now, or lose it.
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So will Gloucester get 5 points this weekend
That is a thorny subject. It has to be equitable for all clubs in the Premiership. In the best case scenario, they should play all their games.
However, I do not want to see another fudge as was the case with covid affected matches.
One option could be is that their results are declared null and void and games against Worcester, if the opposition want to play should be friendly matches with no points awarded.
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No need to rush the decision over what to do about games already played or not played in the coming weeks. If, as we all fervently hope, Worcester can come out of this with new ownership in a way that allows them to return to the fray, then a solution should be sought that allows them to complete the season and compete in the league with the rest of us. I would like to think there is sufficient goodwill among the other clubs that they would be prepared to forego a rest week later in the season to fit them in during international breaks or the latter stages of European competition if teams are eliminated.
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One wonders what happened to the deal that was allegedly close to being done last week?
Or the deal being put together by the Jim O'Toole that he said could only be done once the club was in administration?
I assume the suspension from the league without defining detailed sanctions is being done to allow a re-admission quickly should a take over be arranged quickly.
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O'Toole offer seemingly stumbling over ownership of surrounding land.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63045806
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O'Toole offer seemingly stumbling over ownership of surrounding land.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63045806
Probably did that move as soon as they took over the club. They have history.
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Yes, true. Apparently, when they bought the club, they actually bought it separated up in to parcels. This is not uncommon, whilst being dodgy in the extreme. O'Toole would have to negotiate to buy their bits first, then the club, leaving very little going to the administrator. It will not be a going concern otherwise.
That being the case, I cannot see O'Toole doing the deal required, and the current owners are sitting pretty with the major assets, possibly relatively debt free. They will simply sit back and wait for it to go completely down the pan, buy the stadium at a knockdown price, knock it down, and build a trading estate, handy as it is with parking and direct access to the M5.
As for the club, the players, the staff and the fans, I am sorry, but the current owners have well and truly shafted them. They may yet end up in court, but such action is very tricky to prove a case over.
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Article from today's Daily Telegraph (1051hrs. 5.10.22)
Worcester Warriors to be relegated after 22-second court hearing
Worcester Warriors are on the brink of being thrown out of the Premiership after their joint administrator admitted a takeover was “unlikely” to be concluded in the coming days.
Julie Palmer, of Begbies Traynor, told Telegraph Sport that the club’s suspension from playing will be made permanent by Premiership Rugby Limited (PRL) by the end of next week, sparking an exodus of players and staff.
The news came as players and staff lost their jobs on Wednesday, as the company that pays them, Worcester Players Ltd, was liquidated at the High Court.
A statement read: "Players and staff at Worcester Warriors are to see their contracts terminated, as a key part of the club has just been wound up at the High Court. This morning HMRC has been pursuing the club for unpaid taxes, following a winding up petition back in August.
"Judge Briggs has just instructed that WRFC Players Limited – through which players and staff are contracted and paid – is wound up. All debts remain outstanding. A winding up petition against WRFC Trading Limited – which remains in administration – has been suspended.
"The club had no representation in court."
Takeover talks for Worcester Trading Ltd will continue but Palmer conceded any transaction was “sufficiently complex” to prevent a deal being struck in time for the club to retake the field for their Premiership Rugby Cup fixture against Exeter Chiefs on October 19 and their Premiership game at Bristol three days later.
She said: “The PRL, I think, want clarity in the next couple of weeks and I think it’s a sufficiently complex transaction, plus the added complication of Players going into liquidation today. I think that makes it unlikely, I would say, at the moment.
“But, on the positive side, I think there’s a sense of a model then to be built with a bit more time to look at it and if we are planning on relegation to the Championship next season then that’s probably a much lower funding ask in the first instance.”
That may be true but would also mean there would be no competitive rugby at Sixways for almost a year, forcing players and staff to find new jobs.
Even were a takeover to be completed in time for Worcester to see out the season, Palmer expected the Rugby Football Union to relegate them anyway at the end of the campaign.
Palmer had lobbied the RFU not to impose the sanction designed to punish clubs that enter administration, asking them to invoke a no-fault clause covering insolvencies triggered by the coronavirus crisis.
“We put in our appeal, as we were required to, within 24 hours,” she said.
“The RFU’s response to that appears to be – but not fully confirmed – that we’re on very thin ground in terms of that appeal.”
Worcester’s expulsion from the Premiership will trigger a fresh row over what happens to their lucrative P share, worth £9million.
That share entitles them to a percentage of top-flight revenues, including television money, even if they are in the Championship but their rivals could now seek to strip them of it, with one senior Premiership club official describing the scenario as a "lawyer's dream ticket."
There is uncertainty surrounding the final destination of Worcester's P share. Work is currently taking place behind the scenes to determine whether a clause in the Premiership regulations would allow Worcester's P share to be redistributed to PRL for free because the club has fallen into administration. If this were deemed to be legally unviable, then Worcester's administrators would be in charge of the sale of the P share, with any funds accrued put towards the paying off of the club's debt.
Players and supporters began a social media campaign for Worcester to be allowed to keep the P share, using the slogan ‘Don’t take the P’.
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Worcester Warriors: WRFC Players Ltd wound up in High Court - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63142239
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As I said in this and the Wasps-related thread, the judges have little sympathy when cases like this come before them. Papers opened, stamp, closed. Thus ends a proud history.
I feel so very sad for the staff, players and fans.
Begbies are a very good Insolvency Practitioner firm, and will no doubt be on the case of the directors.
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I believe it only took 22 seconds for the judge to stamp it off
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I believe it only took 22 seconds for the judge to stamp it off
Doesn't shock me. I represented someone at a bankruptcy hearing once when I was a legal aid caseworker. They had 50 cases listed and I was the only representative of a Defendant there. They did my case first, which got adjourned, but the remaining 49 went through and the barrister representing the Applicants in all 50 cases was at the station 10 minutes after me.
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I have been in Court when these petitions are presented. They are placed in two piles. Defendant represented, or not. There could be a thousand in the not represented pile.
The judge simply declares the whole lot of 'not defended' done in one go, in Chambers (doesn't even walk in to the Court itself). Then moves on to the very few that are defended. And the defendants are given very short shrift for letting it get this far. Often also done in Chambers (the judge's own office).
It goes 'Do you owe them money?' ... 'Yes?' ... 'How much do you claim you owe them?' 'Is there a Court judgement to support your claim to the lower amount?' ... 'Have you paid that amount in full? ... 'No?' ... Judgement awarded.
It is a brutal process.
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In The Guardian.
Worcester Warriors: the inside story of a rugby club’s demise
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/worcester-warriors-the-inside-story-of-a-rugby-clubs-demise (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/worcester-warriors-the-inside-story-of-a-rugby-clubs-demise)
Reading this, I am so happy I never wanted to be a 'business man'. The convoluted devious minds these people have :o :o :o
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In The Guardian.
Worcester Warriors: the inside story of a rugby club’s demise
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/worcester-warriors-the-inside-story-of-a-rugby-clubs-demise (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/worcester-warriors-the-inside-story-of-a-rugby-clubs-demise)
Reading this, I am so happy I never wanted to be a 'business man'. The convoluted devious minds these people have :o :o :o
This is a sad read.
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From today's Telegraph
Steve Diamond, Worcester Warriors' director of rugby, denounced "English rugby's darkest day" on Wednesday as the company responsible for paying the West Midlands club's players was liquidated in a brutal 22-second High Court hearing.
On a day of high emotion, during which the stricken club were left on the brink of expulsion from the Gallagher Premiership, Diamond, alongside Worcester captain Ted Hill, took aim at the game's administrators, accusing Premiership Rugby and the Rugby Football Union of standing idly by as “a tragedy of professional rugby” unfolded.
In response to a 58-word statement from Simon Massie-Taylor, the Premiership Rugby chief executive, Hill simply said: "Your 'thoughts' aren’t what was needed."
“This is the darkest day for English rugby," Diamond added. "We thought we could turn the tanker around but it’s ended up like the Titanic, sadly.
“The ship has sunk, the captains are nowhere to be seen. The RFU/PRL band played in the background. There are a privileged few who have jobs but there are so many left without them.
“Players, coaches, commercial staff I am sorry. I said a while back that this could be a tragedy of professional rugby union and that is where we are.” Nick Easter, the Warriors' defence coach, also accused the club's co-owners, Colin Goldring and Jason Whittingham, of being "cowards".
Worcester's liquidation at the the High Court, for which the club had no representation, was finalised in 22 seconds on Wednesday afternoon, after which the RFU confirmed that it will "continue to speak to the administrators, and potential buyers, over the next 24 hours to understand the possibility of a buyer taking over the club in time for the men’s team to participate in the Premiership during the 2022-23 season."
It is understood, however, that this remains unlikely, with Worcester's best-case scenario seemingly reintegrating into the Championship at the beginning of next season, with definitive clarity expected in the next few days. Premiership chiefs were locked in long negotiations with the administrators on Wednesday night.
"We are also liaising with the administrators in relation to discussions with potential funders, which may enable the University of Worcester Warriors women’s team to continue in the Allianz Premier 15s even if the men’s team cannot continue to participate this season," Bill Sweeney, RFU chief executive, added.
"This is a very sad day for rugby in England. Our thoughts are with all of the Worcester Warriors players, staff and supporters."
Should Worcester, as expected, be expelled from the Premiership, then a fresh row over their lucrative P share, worth £9 million, will be triggered.
That share entitles them to a percentage of top-flight revenues, including television money, even if they are in the Championship, but their rivals could now seek to strip them of it.
Telegraph Sport understands that preliminary investigations are ongoing among clubs to determine whether a clause in the Premiership’s regulations would allow Worcester's P share to be redistributed among the clubs for a symbolic £1 due to Worcester's administration status, although it is understood that the shares have a set rate and that any re-sale would go towards the repayment of HMRC debt.
A number of Worcester players, some of whom assembled at Sixways on Wednesday for one final training session, have already attracted the interest of other Premiership clubs, while Duhan van der Merwe, the Scotland wing, has agreed a move to Edinburgh. Joe Batley, Andrew Kitchener and Alex Hearle are thought to be subject to interest from London Irish, with both Saracens and Northampton looking at hooker Curtis Langdon.
The Saints have also explored the possibility of fly-half Fin Smith expediting his move which was due to start at the beginning of the 2023-24 season. Prop Santiago Medrano has also been courted by several Premiership clubs.
"A ridiculously emotional day," Batley said after the final training session at Sixways. "We had seen it coming but with it actually being here now... it's a whole different story, isn't it.
"It still hit just as hard. We arrived at 9am on Wednesday morning and we stayed until 12. The mood changed massively when the news came in. Being together again, we did some fitness so that we're still sharp for whatever happens next. It was a sombre atmosphere by the end; a lot of high-fives, handshakes and hugs.
"We're not sure what this means for each individual. After going through everything together we each now have to go our separate ways and do what's best for each of us. That's us done. We have nothing to go in for."
Massie-Taylor said on Wednesday: “The thoughts of everyone at Premiership Rugby are with the players, staff and fans of the Warriors on what is another distressing day for everyone involved with the club.
“This is a sad day for rugby – the Warriors have been a huge part of the Premiership since Cecil Duckworth CBE led them to their first promotion in 2004.”
Earlier on Wednesday, Telegraph Sport revealed that Julie Palmer, of Begbies Traynor, the joint administrators of Worcester, had admitted that a takeover was “unlikely” to be concluded in the coming days.
Takeover talks for Worcester Trading Ltd will continue but Palmer conceded any transaction was “sufficiently complex” to prevent a deal being struck in time for the club to retake the field for their Premiership Rugby Cup fixture against Exeter Chiefs on October 19 and their Premiership game at Bristol three days later.
Telegraph Sport understands, too, that hopes of the land situated on the outskirts of Sixways being included in any takeover deal are growing, a stipulation that was considered vital to Jim O'Toole's consortium.
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In The Guardian.
Worcester Warriors: the inside story of a rugby club’s demise
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/worcester-warriors-the-inside-story-of-a-rugby-clubs-demise (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/worcester-warriors-the-inside-story-of-a-rugby-clubs-demise)
Reading this, I am so happy I never wanted to be a 'business man'. The convoluted devious minds these people have :o :o :o
+1
It seems it must be a well worn road - the pissing about with a multitude of companies to make finding a true position for an "entity" as hard as possible. Whilst presumably, aiming to obtain max tax advantage.
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What is this fuss about P shares?. As I see it , if a club is not in the Premiership for a certain time, they can be made to sell , if a club replacing them ,can afford them at the normal market rate. So whoever is next promoted should have first call on them. If they can’t afford them then whichever company owns them keeps them until a club can, as has happened in past. Possibly a charge could be put on the shares so that the dividend goes to Creditors?
If Hmrc / administrators wants to force an early sale, they would want market value ,so how can this talk of selling back to Other shareholders at a nominal price be correct? Which of the many companies actually has ownership? Is it the one in administration?
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So, it's been announced on BBC Sport that Worcester have now been suspended from this season and will be relegated.
Assuming the situation with us improves, where does this leave us for our Christmas game!? I assume it doesn't happen now.
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From the BBC
Financially stricken Worcester Warriors have been suspended for the rest of the Premiership season and will be relegated from the top tier.
The decision was taken by the Rugby Football Union's (RFU) club financial viability group to give time to find an investor and the "best chance for a long-term sustainable future".
Worcester players and staff had their contracts terminated on Wednesday when part of the club was wound up.
The club can appeal their relegation.
To be successful, the Warriors would need to show there was no fault for the insolvency event.
As well having their Premiership campaign ended, the suspension sees them kicked out of the Premiership Rugby Cup.
"As the club no longer has staff and players on contract, and with many seeking alternative employment, the decision has been made to focus on how the club can be viable over the long term," the RFU said in a statement.
It added that the club's administrators, Begbies Traynor, "are in discussions with several potential investors and it is expected they will also be planning for long-term sustainability".
The RFU also said work is ongoing with an unnamed potential investor to ensure the University of Worcester Warriors women's team can continue competing in the Premier 15s for the remainder of the season.
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Will the league really not redo the fixture list, do Exeter and Irish have the 5 points taken away from them
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Will the league really not redo the fixture list, do Exeter and Irish have the 5 points taken away from them
I think the remaining fixture list will need to be redone and previous matches removed.
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Will the league really not redo the fixture list, do Exeter and Irish have the 5 points taken away from them
I think the remaining fixture list will need to be redone and previous matches removed.
Re-doing the fixture list would cause chaos, with a few teams already having had bye weeks, and those who have played or had their matches with Worcester already 'played'.
It may end up with teams getting 4 byes this year, but two clubs getting only three. An utter mess.
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Sounds like they might be re-doing the league. You would think they would wait for us to go too.
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And what of any injuries that happened playing against a club that no longer exists?
Will a club be compensated for losing a player in a game that gained them nothing?
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Just looked the table. Newcastle, with the Wuss result expunged, will now go above us in the table on points difference
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And what of any injuries that happened playing against a club that no longer exists?
Will a club be compensated for losing a player in a game that gained them nothing?
Not sure how that would make a difference. Injuries happen in the game, whether or not that game is ultimately meaningful or not. The club will be covered by its own insurance regardless, so the future viability of that opponent is irrelevant.
What if a player is injured in a pre season game? Or a dead rubber at the end of the season? Or a Barbarians match?
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Will the league really not redo the fixture list, do Exeter and Irish have the 5 points taken away from them
I think the remaining fixture list will need to be redone and previous matches removed.
I think any decision on rejigging the season and removing points from matches already played will be on hold until Wasps' plight becomes a little clearer.
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They won't rejig the league games.
As suggested, if we go under they'd have to do it again
There's supposedly 2 other clubs in a similar financial position, so there may be a need for further rejigging too.
In the end, I suspect the powers that be will spin it as player welfare and say that clubs will get more off weeks when they were scheduled to play Worcester (and maybe us)
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I don't think we can say this season players will be over played more days off then a school teacher
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I don't think we can say this season players will be over played more days off then a school teacher
As it stands (and here's hoping there will be no more casualties), we're back to a 22 game Premiership season, which is where we were until someone decided that Sarries couldn't serve more than 1 season in the Championship, despite the pandemic preventing a meaningful season to be completed. In any other year, both promotion and relegation would have been scrapped, but no one had the balls to say "tough shit" to Sarries, and we were landed with the imperfect 13 team league we now have (or at least had until Worcester's demise).
So no fewer games per season than 3 years ago.
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Teams with scheduled off weeks may well have other commitments already penned in. Players book foreign breaks etc. It won't be easy to just rewrite the season and cancel all those bye weeks.
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Have seen Batley is off to Bristol, Sutherland to Ulster and Giammarioli is off to Bordeaux.
The Ted Hill’s of this world would always be ok with a new job but pleased for Batley.
Now looking out for a few ex wasps like Searle, Howe and Owlett hoping they can find a new club it’s these squad guys as well as the fresh academy graduates that I fear for
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Worcester being expelled and relegated regardless of sale or not means that we should expect the same thing, even if we can pay off the debt.
And the fact we would be relegated would make us less attractive an acquisition for a buyer, I imagine
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Worcester being expelled and relegated regardless of sale or not means that we should expect the same thing, even if we can pay off the debt.
And the fact we would be relegated would make us less attractive an acquisition for a buyer, I imagine
Any buyer will not be buying for a UK rugby team unless he is stark raving bonkers. If we are relegated the new buyer will have less initial expediture putting a team together as most we have currently will go. I would expect a new buyer to push urgently for a plastic pitch to increase possible use.
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Worcester being expelled and relegated regardless of sale or not means that we should expect the same thing, even if we can pay off the debt.
And the fact we would be relegated would make us less attractive an acquisition for a buyer, I imagine
Any buyer will not be buying for a UK rugby team unless he is stark raving bonkers. If we are relegated the new buyer will have less initial expediture putting a team together as most we have currently will go. I would expect a new buyer to push urgently for a plastic pitch to increase possible use.
Wouldn't this mean that we would lose CCFC as tenants? Surely there would be a clause in their lease precluding a plastic pitch?
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AIUI a plastic pitch would mean CCFC would have to move out. That would mean losing a known revenue stream for an u certain, but potentially greater, revenue stream.
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The English Football League (EFL), like the Premier League, does not allow its member clubs to have artificial pitches, which means all matches must be played on either a 100% grass pitch or a hybrid of grass and artificial elements.
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AIUI a plastic pitch would mean CCFC would have to move out. That would mean losing a known revenue stream for an u certain, but potentially greater, revenue stream.
I agree but they are building a stadium. Increased revenue stream for a pitch that can hold a concert one weekend and a sports fixture the next has to be in the plans.
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The English Football League (EFL), like the Premier League, does not allow its member clubs to have artificial pitches, which means all matches must be played on either a 100% grass pitch or a hybrid of grass and artificial elements.
Who really cares :) :) :) :)
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Must be a clause in agreement re type of pitch we provide- or else a big penalty payment .
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Worcester being expelled and relegated regardless of sale or not means that we should expect the same thing, even if we can pay off the debt.
Currently, the situations are not the same. Wasps is still a going concern, they can pay their bills, pay their staff, pay the interest on the Bond (I assume) & tick all the boxes necessary to play a game at home. If a sale or re-finance cannot be agreed before any of those things stop, then potentially Wasps could be suspended/relegated etc even if a buyer/refinancier happens at a later date.
Its all about what can get agreed in the next week and a half. Unless I am missing something.
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Assuming both Worcester and Wasps are bought/saved but are relegated - what happens to the Championship? They have two relegated teams when they were expecting none. And if the champion doesn't meet Premiership ground standards so can't be promoted then that's three extra teams. Do they have to relegate a team that should have finished in a safe spot?!
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I would imagine its too early to say TBT. Who knows how many other clubs may be in financial difficulties & may end up relegated.
IMO if Wasps do get relegated they may not survive at all.
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Must be a clause in agreement re type of pitch we provide- or else a big penalty payment .
Of course there is.
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Assuming both Worcester and Wasps are bought/saved but are relegated - what happens to the Championship? They have two relegated teams when they were expecting none. And if the champion doesn't meet Premiership ground standards so can't be promoted then that's three extra teams. Do they have to relegate a team that should have finished in a safe spot?!
I thought I’d read that The criteria for ground had been changed or was being looked at.
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They've just modified the minimum ground criteria, so it wouldn't be a surprise to see the top 2 from the Championship promoted. Or most likely just one and bring the Prem back to a 12 team league.
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IMO if Wasps do get relegated they may not survive at all.
Just wondering, who do you support? It’s clearly not Wasps.
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That's rather childish
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who do you support? It’s clearly not Wasps.
Why? because I think that if Wasps get relegated they may not survive?
How is that related to whether I support Wasps or not?
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https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/worcester-warriors-rugby-owners-hard-fail-rfu-1898984
Not necessarily anything new , but a good summing up
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I've just seen the league table and we are 11th out of 12 and the matches that Worcester were involved in has been removed
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I've just seen the league table and we are 11th out of 12 and the matches that Worcester were involved in has been removed
Yes, with Wuss beating Budgies 39-5 on September 24th, that result being scrubbed off has done a lot for Falcons' points difference.
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who do you support? It’s clearly not Wasps.
Why? because I think that if Wasps get relegated they may not survive?
How is that related to whether I support Wasps or not?
Agree, I don't understand.
If Wasps were to get relegated, we may be seen as less of an asset to someone and therefore we may not get saved/bought/other.
It may not be the most optimistic outlook, but I don't think it makes anyone any less of a fan
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who do you support? It’s clearly not Wasps.
Why? because I think that if Wasps get relegated they may not survive?
How is that related to whether I support Wasps or not?
BP101 has been a loyal fan for years, through both good times and bad, so is due a bit of respect here. I personally agree with him too.
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Thats great. Forgive me for getting twitchy when somebody suggests Wasps may cease to exist 😏
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I would imagine its too early to say TBT. Who knows how many other clubs may be in financial difficulties & may end up relegated.
IMO if Wasps do get relegated they may not survive at all.
What we know as Wasps now may not survive but I think Wasps is more than location based team, its an idea embodied by the phrase: Once a Wasp, always a Wasp. It is not London Wasps, Wycombe Wasps or even Worcester Wasps, it is just Wasps.
If it gets relegated out of its current existence I'm sure some group of fans and players will pick up the pieces and start again at the lowest level needed. Perhaps playing at Primrose Hill or Merchant Taylors (I've played cricket there, lovely setting) as an invitational team, initially.
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If we find the investment to save the club it will have little to do with the current success or failure of the team.
It will be to do with the overall business plan of the group. The hotel, the music venue, the casino, the conference facilities.
What the club brings, if anything, is nothing more than a cohesive brand to hang it all on. A name that people know. Rugby as it stands is not making anyone money.
I think it could with the right infrastructure and support, and I think for a while we had that and we're heading in the right direction. But Covid lockdowns stopped it all dead.
If there is someone out there with the ambition and long term thinking who can see the potential opportunity then it'll happen. If not it won't.
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Agree VV. The one statement that has worried me most in this whole thing was Dallaglio pre Bath pushing for no relegation if we go into administration. Without knowing my reading of the events is that in Spring and early summer a deal was “done” but for whatever reason fell through. Since then we’ve been trying to cobble something together. I think we’re now reliant on someone/thing seeing potential in the stadium etc who also has an interest in the game. What I can’t figure out is why you would buy as it is or wait for administration to pick something up cheaper - which comes back to LD’s plea for no relegation if admin happens.
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Agree VV. The one statement that has worried me most in this whole thing was Dallaglio pre Bath pushing for no relegation if we go into administration. Without knowing my reading of the events is that in Spring and early summer a deal was “done” but for whatever reason fell through. Since then we’ve been trying to cobble something together. I think we’re now reliant on someone/thing seeing potential in the stadium etc who also has an interest in the game. What I can’t figure out is why you would buy as it is or wait for administration to pick something up cheaper - which comes back to LD’s plea for no relegation if admin happens.
l'm very much on the same page. Whilst my experience of deals suggests that a lack of news means v little, the Lol stuff is a concern. He must have an inside view and is doing "rugby politics ", of the sort that you do when optimism is fading. I guess we do need a benefactor........
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Agree VV. The one statement that has worried me most in this whole thing was Dallaglio pre Bath pushing for no relegation if we go into administration. Without knowing my reading of the events is that in Spring and early summer a deal was “done” but for whatever reason fell through. Since then we’ve been trying to cobble something together. I think we’re now reliant on someone/thing seeing potential in the stadium etc who also has an interest in the game. What I can’t figure out is why you would buy as it is or wait for administration to pick something up cheaper - which comes back to LD’s plea for no relegation if admin happens.
l'm very much on the same page. Whilst my experience of deals suggests that a lack of news means v little, the Lol stuff is a concern. He must have an inside view and is doing "rugby politics ", of the sort that you do when optimism is fading. I guess we do need a benefactor........
+1
I fear that tomorrow's journey may well be the last to the CBSA. I can't see why anyone would invest at this moment.
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Agree VV. The one statement that has worried me most in this whole thing was Dallaglio pre Bath pushing for no relegation if we go into administration. Without knowing my reading of the events is that in Spring and early summer a deal was “done” but for whatever reason fell through. Since then we’ve been trying to cobble something together. I think we’re now reliant on someone/thing seeing potential in the stadium etc who also has an interest in the game. What I can’t figure out is why you would buy as it is or wait for administration to pick something up cheaper - which comes back to LD’s plea for no relegation if admin happens.
Well the deal with HSBC was far advanced enough that Wasps were allowed to make it public, and then for whatever reason they backed out. I suspect the forthcoming financial depression has made them very twitchy.
My worry is that nobody sees the value in the Wasps brand, and that the amount of money needed to save the club exceeds the potential cost of creating a whole new brand for the combined assets. If that's the case, and we have no hitherto unknown pile of ready cash at our disposal, then the club is doomed.
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Hey folks,
Please don't forget that the current Wasps was split-off from the Wasps, amateur Club that still exists and operates from Ealing Common. It is thee that the Ladies side operates from as well.
IF we go under, then the heritage and DNA still exists.
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I would imagine its too early to say TBT. Who knows how many other clubs may be in financial difficulties & may end up relegated.
IMO if Wasps do get relegated they may not survive at all.
What we know as Wasps now may not survive but I think Wasps is more than location based team, its an idea embodied by the phrase: Once a Wasp, always a Wasp. It is not London Wasps, Wycombe Wasps or even Worcester Wasps, it is just Wasps.
If it gets relegated out of its current existence I'm sure some group of fans and players will pick up the pieces and start again at the lowest level needed. Perhaps playing at Primrose Hill or Merchant Taylors (I've played cricket there, lovely setting) as an invitational team, initially.
No need for anyone to pick up the pieces and start again at the lowest level.
As RogerE says, the original Wasps club still exists, together with all those intangibles you mention and over 150 years of history. The professional outfit broke away in 1996 and the 2 clubs have continued to operate with that shared history and heritage. If the pro team goes to the wall, then we will be back to just one.
Currently playing in Counties 2 Herts/Middx (8th tier).
https://www.englandrugby.com/fixtures-and-results/search-results?competition=261&division=39116&season=2022-2023#fixtures
Home games at Twyford Avenue, Acton (where the pros also used to train). Home games the next 2 Saturdays for anyone interested.
Can't say I follow their fortunes that closely, but from results so far this season, it looks like something of a 2 tier league with some absolute thumpings, but some more competitive games between those on a par with each other. This may well be to do with the major RFU rejig of the community game ahead of the current season where teams may take a season or 2 to find an appropriate level.
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Well the deal with HSBC was far advanced enough that Wasps were allowed to make it public, and then for whatever reason they backed out. I suspect the forthcoming financial depression has made them very twitchy.
Of course the truth maybe that Wasps were not allowed to name HSBC in their press release as the deal was not yet done. The deal didn't go ahead after all. Given how well we manage every other part of the business it wouldn't surprise me if we named a party to a deal without their prior approval.
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Well the deal with HSBC was far advanced enough that Wasps were allowed to make it public, and then for whatever reason they backed out. I suspect the forthcoming financial depression has made them very twitchy.
Of course the truth maybe that Wasps were not allowed to name HSBC in their press release as the deal was not yet done. The deal didn't go ahead after all. Given how well we manage every other part of the business it wouldn't surprise me if we named a party to a deal without their prior approval.
No, we were allowed. I had that from the highest level.
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Naming no names obviously, are you able to explain the ins and out of this VV?? I quite understand if this isn't possible.