Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: BlackAndGoldSunglasses on September 21, 2022, 04:31:43 PM
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Breaking: Wasps face relegation after filing notice in the High Court of their intention to appoint an administrator, as the financial crisis in English club rugby deepens.
https://twitter.com/AlexMLowe/status/1572607938480558080
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From the article:
Wasps face relegation from the Gallagher Premiership after filing notice in the High Court of their intention to appoint an administrator as the financial crisis in English club rugby deepens.
The club had been due to pay back £35 million in bonds, which helped finance their relocation to Coventry from London in 2014, in May but were unable to meet the deadline.
Wasps had been looking for refinance options but this afternoon issued notice of intention to appoint an administrator.
Under RFU rules, a team that goes into administration faces automatic relegation unless they can demonstrate that the financial crisis was not their fault.
Worcester Warriors are close to being in the same boat. They have debts of £25 million and will be suspended from all competitions unless they can demonstrate “a credible plan to take the club forward” by Monday lunchtime.
Worcester face a winding-up court hearing on October 6, at which HMRC is expected to demand full payment of a £6 million tax bill.
Wasps and the RFU have both been approached for comment.
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Under RFU rules, a team that goes into administration faces automatic relegation unless they can demonstrate that the financial crisis was not their fault.
As quoted with Worcester, I think we might have to rely on the "pandemic / act of god" clause in the regulations....
If it's as is being reported.
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If The Times are running this story....which they are...then it seems things are unfortunately coming to a head.
Very sad.
And no idea what the future holds.
Feel for the players and staff, as the uncertainty will be unsettling for them and their families.
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I think we might have to rely on the "pandemic / act of god" clause in the regulations....
Worth a try, but not sure borrowing £35million and not being able to pay it back really comes under the "Pandemic" heading!
Incredibly sad if true
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This is very sad news, what was Dallaglio talking about last week that Wasps were imminently about to announce good news on their finances!
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That would trigger the clause in the bonds that the bondholders then fall back on their equity, which is the stadium, yes? I think some of the government debt is similarly secured. Now we know why the shenanigans as to who owns the training ground and the separate academy house might have taken place.
As I have said before, a potential buyer would want to avoid/offload much of the debt and will likely not want to buy until it went in to administration.
One thing you can be sure of, Wasps will have had long discussion with the Premiership about what doing this would precipitate. Wasps directors are doing the right thing given their financial situation. Worcester directors should have done the same already.
I have little doubt other clubs are working towards the same end. The Premiership could face a situation of half the league going in to administration and being relegated. They may be forced almost to trigger the 'Covid' clause and levy a points penalty only. If a whole bunch of clubs do the same, BT could well cancel its broadcast contract, and the Premiership cannot afford that.
Sad times, but we have been saying for some time that things look bleak for Premiership Rugby finances.
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Owh dear. Can only stick with the Club and hope for the best for it.
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This is very sad news, what was Dallaglio talking about last week that Wasps were imminently about to announce good news on their finances!
Maybe this IS the good news. Maybe somebody is lined up to buy it at a knock down price from the administrators.
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Good summary, Nelly. Thanks
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This is very sad news, what was Dallaglio talking about last week that Wasps were imminently about to announce good news on their finances!
Maybe this IS the good news. Maybe somebody is lined up to buy it at a knock down price from the administrators.
Possibly, but what would happen to the ground? Would that still go to the bond holders anyway?
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This is very sad news, what was Dallaglio talking about last week that Wasps were imminently about to announce good news on their finances!
Maybe this IS the good news. Maybe somebody is lined up to buy it at a knock down price from the administrators.
Surely if the bonds are secured against the stadium, then they won't have a fat lot left to buy. Will we not end up exactly where we were before moving? No ground of our own, and no assets other than the Wasps name?
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This is very sad news, what was Dallaglio talking about last week that Wasps were imminently about to announce good news on their finances!
Maybe this IS the good news. Maybe somebody is lined up to buy it at a knock down price from the administrators.
Possibly, but what would happen to the ground? Would that still go to the bond holders anyway?
The ground is complicated, as it is leased, and I suspect that the lease has an insolvency clause (they often do), where the property reverts back to its owners. The lien the bondholders and the government have may only be over the lease, as the freehold belongs to Coventry Council. There might be some clawback to those debtors if the council then sell a new lease.
Nothing will happen too quickly, as that is the point to appointing an administrator. Once appointed, creditors can no longer take action, and all debts go on hold and unpaid, but the administrator can choose to trade on. Typically, a buyer is already lined up, who provides the administrator with a 'going concern' guarantee (to meet costs like power, wages, utilities, and other services/supplies as are absolutely needed). We are not playing at home now until October 9th, so that gives an administrator enough time to sort it out whilst paying the relatively minimal costs of playing away.
Now you see why I was musing before about Wasps and Worcester merging. If the same buyer bought both clubs, and with Premiership permission, could merge them, with Wasps/Worcester playing at Sixways, training at Henley, and leave the CBS Arena for CCFC to play at.
These times will be very worrying for staff, players and fans. And they will learn nothing for a while.
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Now you see why I was musing before about Wasps and Worcester merging. If the same buyer bought both clubs, and with Premiership permission, could merge them, with Wasps/Worcester playing at Sixways, training at Henley, and leave the CBS Arena for CCFC to play at.
You might not be a million miles away there.
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Bobby's running 'live' story.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-administration-high-court-25075964 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-administration-high-court-25075964)
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As my wife is a retired insolvency practitioner (and thus was at one time liquidator and administrator to companies), and I worked with her, the process is:
1. The directors go visit an Insolvency Practitioner. In this case the decision was to go in to administration.
2. Papers are quickly drawn up and taken to the Court. The papers ask the Court to appoint an administrator, and include a form that shows the insolvency practitioner is willing to take the case, and the petition will have the administrator's name on it.
3. Minutes later a judge approves the appointment.
Minutes later. That was always so in the cases my wife handled. In this situation, time is of the essence. By the end of the day, I would be surprised not to see Wasps release a statement, written by said administrator.
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A very sad state of affairs if confirmed. Very much incumbant on Wasps to release something now to inform us all. Makes Lol's comments only a couple of weeks back a little more perplexing.
We just have to wait and see.
And on a larger picture, if this is the case, is this a much larger issue with the ongoing viability of professional rugby as a whole in this country particularly?
Lots of questions!
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This year has been a bummer. I did not think it could get worse, but here we are.
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Just hope that Derek and family, all the players and all the staff come out of this OK. Others have been relegated but survived and gone back up.
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Things should move relatively quickly.
In terms of administrators they would have been in discussions with the club for some time as the Directors would have been seeking their advice to ensure they weren't trading insolvently.
I don't see how the professional club survives and even if it does not sure what sort of existence it will be as short of Jeff Bezos taking a sudden interest in premiership rugby the money won't be there to pay for the players a club needs to remain competitive at this level.
Lets be honest, this whole league is financed by a cohort of incredibly wealthy individuals, unfortunately it looks like us and Worcester are the ugly ducklings who can't find a suitor and as a result that will be that.
This club has given me some of the best days of my life, thoughts go out to all the staff and players.
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I think Lawrence's statement followed hy this is clear evidence something fell through for the second time.
Not feeling great about the future now.
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Bobby's running 'live' story.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-administration-high-court-25075964 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-administration-high-court-25075964)
“Notice that they intend to file” is quite an interesting statement, as BB says. NWW may be right and some sort of pre pack or even pre sale is in the offing and this is a negotiation position to new buyers: “If you don’t close we’re going to let the Administrator sort it out” or not.
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Just as long as they're not called Joy.
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LOL making comments about everything will be good imminently when it wasn’t a definite is a bit disappointing. The comments coming from the club saying it wasn’t going into administration then 3 weeks later it looks like we are, is also disappointing.
The club have made some very bold statements over the years and none have come true. The move to Coventry looks like it’s been a disaster. I feel really upset for the players, as I thought we had a lot of talented youngsters but it looks like we might not see them all played together, real shame.
I’m gutted
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In The Telegraph now
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It's incredibly annoying that the club don't have a public statement ready.
They must have known someone would pick up on it and they should have something ready to inform the fans.
I know they wouldn't be able to go into detail, but just something
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It's incredibly annoying that the club don't have a public statement ready.
They must have known someone would pick up on it and they should have something ready to inform the fans.
I know they wouldn't be able to go into detail, but just something
They cannot say anything until an administrator is appointed, having made the application. Then in the name of Wasps, the administrator will be making the statement(s). I would first expect the websites and ticketing pages to go down. Social accounts might also go and then reappear when the administrator has control.
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NWW, thanks for the insight, appreciated.
Very sad day if true. Disappointed but I’m afraid I’m not surprised.
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BB quotes the 'no-fault Insolvency Events':
"Upon an affected Club’s application the RFU may in its absolute discretion reduce or waive in its entirety any sanction that would otherwise apply to a Club under Regulations 5.5.5 to 5.5.8 where it is satisfied that the Insolvency Event would not have occurred but for an event or circumstance which was beyond the control and without the fault or negligence of the affected Club and which by the exercise of reasonable diligence the affected Club was unable to prevent, including (but not limited to): .... and any epidemic or pandemic as categorised as such by the UK Government and/or the World Health Organisation."
I think it can be argued that the current financial climate is partly due to the pandemic which was beyond the club's control.
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Yes, I suspect it could.
I'd like to think discussions were had with the RFU before a decision like this was taken.
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Is it the RFU or the PRL that would make the decision on whether it's relegation time?
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https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-confirm-intention-appoint-administrators-25076837
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https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-confirm-intention-appoint-administrators-25076837 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-confirm-intention-appoint-administrators-25076837)
It's the hope that kills you
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Maybe NWW or someone with better understanding of all of this can help me understand.
I appreciate I'm probably trying to find some positives in this but does this only happen when a business is well and truly done for? Or are there benefits to doing this?
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I am with Jamestaylor on this. In business is this an acceptable practice, or are we kicking the can down the road?
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It would seem that the idea is that issuing notice buys us 14 days to secure a buy out or funding etc.
It sounds like we can maybe get an extra 14 days at the end of it too.
So basically we trying to put everyone else on hold for a couple more weeks in the hope that whatever super deal we're organising gets finalised
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that statement sounds quite positive but we've heard loads of positive things over the last few years & the last few months, none of which have turned out to be true. I hope there's a solution out there but we can't keep being told there's light at the end of the tunnel when the tunnel never seems to end.
stop telling us there's a solution just around the corner & actually deliver it!
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that statement sounds quite positive but we've heard loads of positive things over the last few years & the last few months, none of which have turned out to be true. I hope there's a solution out there but we can't keep being told there's light at the end of the tunnel when the tunnel never seems to end.
stop telling us there's a solution just around the corner & actually deliver it!
Yep, exactly this.
Everyone knows it ain't easy.
We all knew from day 1 that it was a big plan, maybe too big. We went along with it because there wasn't a lot of options and it could have been great if it worked out.
Things have been tough. Almost certainly made worse by a pandemic.
I still want to blame Saracens for stealing success / prizes from other clubs.
But regardless of all of that, maybe the game had already expanded beyond its means and it's now biting back
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that statement sounds quite positive but we've heard loads of positive things over the last few years & the last few months, none of which have turned out to be true. I hope there's a solution out there but we can't keep being told there's light at the end of the tunnel when the tunnel never seems to end.
stop telling us there's a solution just around the corner & actually deliver it!
Yes, I feel the same way. I just want this to end and it's disheartening hearing this news when we've heard such good statements from Lol and Derek.
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Maybe NWW or someone with better understanding of all of this can help me understand.
I appreciate I'm probably trying to find some positives in this but does this only happen when a business is well and truly done for? Or are there benefits to doing this?
Yes. It stops creditors from taking any action against you, but, at the end of the two week period, either you have sorted out the solvency of the business, or an administrator is by default appointed. In return, the directors have to guarantee that they do nothing to further worsen the position of creditors. In other words, anything you buy in this period MUST be paid for, and not out of funds in hand as of today.
When I used to get involved in this sort of thing, most creditors insisted on payment with order, utilities took meter readings, new accounts would be created, old accounts locked. This process can only be used if you can convince the Court that it is highly likely a resolution will be found within the period. In other words, it must appear to the Court that there is little likelihood of an administrator actually being appointed.
In America, which gets a lot of press as this route is most often used, they call it Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, but over there it can last for years. A lot of big businesses, like car makers and airlines, have used this method to gain some breathing space. A new owner, or incoming finance source must be really close. To me, I cannot understand why any institution would want to 'invest in' or loan money to Wasps. It would make no financial sense to their shareholders. Thus, more likely a new owner. One with more money than sense, or a sense of deep desire to keep Wasps afloat, one that was not around last time this happened, way back then.
Note that we do not play at home until well after this mess is sorted one way or the other. But, our tenants have one game in the 14 days, on 1 October, so that might be an artificial deadline to meet.
I am not sure if anything else, like concerts, events, netball or womens rugby are on in the interim.
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So it appears to be a defensive move, due to the threat from HMRC and not Bondholders or other creditors.
HMRC were also the catalyst for Warriors, right?
It’s a statement that tells us something and nothing.
For example, does interested parties mean to lend, or to buy and if the latter, is it buy outright or to invest and take a share?
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Maybe NWW or someone with better understanding of all of this can help me understand.
I appreciate I'm probably trying to find some positives in this but does this only happen when a business is well and truly done for? Or are there benefits to doing this?
Wasps are insolvent, we can't pay our debts as and when they fall due. This has been known for some time.
By filing an intent to appoint the administrator we are saying "We are looking for a solution, however if in the period of 14 days we can't find this, we will be going into administration". We are buying time, why wouldn't we? But this feels very much the last roll of the dice in the hope someone call pull a rabbit out of a hat.
If we do go into administration they will be acting in the interest of the creditors and looking to regain as much value as possible. They will have complete control. I think as soon as we go into administration that will be the end of Wasps at the Ricoh, the one asset we have will be sold to repay the creditors and there is no way we would lease the stadium to rattle around in it like we do currently, especially if Premier Rugby relegate us.
Then, anyones guess, look to merge with Cov? Worcester? Back to London? Cease to exist? All would be possible outcomes but I reckon as soon as we go into administration we won't see the likes of Willis x2, Atkinson, Barbeary, Launch etc in a Wasps shirt again.
One thing however is blinding obvious, the market for professional rugby in this country in it's current state isn't as big as the players salaries would suggest.
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One thing however is blinding obvious, the market for professional rugby in this country in it's current state isn't as big as the players salaries would suggest.
That's the key for me.
Although the salary cap has been reduced recently, it has followed numerous significant salary increases year on year, without significant rewards going back to the clubs to pay for it.
I can't see anyone getting any return on investment... Not just with Wasps, but with any rugby club.
So, even if a white knight does come along, the business model remains the same.
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Saw this on a Facebook group, not sure how true it is.
This is the email message sent to Staff and players, earlier today:
This morning, HMRC made a decision to give their intention to issue a winding-up order against the club for outstanding monies owed.
'Due to this, the board have taken the decision to enter a Notice of Intention to Appoint an Administrator (NOI).
‘This is not the same as entering into administration, but it is a method by which the club and business can continue to trade whilst it finalises its negotiations with regards to the refinance package which the board have been working on.
A message was sent out to staff and players attempting to ease their concerns on the situation
‘Clearly this is an unsettling time for all involved, however, at this present moment in time there is no change to daily operations and we have been informed that there is no reason why salaries due next week should not be paid as expected.
‘What this process will do is protect the business in the short-term, to give it an opportunity to complete the refinance process.
'We have arranged for our restructuring partner, FRP, together with board members, to be available at the training ground in person tomorrow to answer any questions directly.’
There are bound to be plenty of questions. Early in the month, Wasps released a statement which claimed that the club had ‘received an offer which would see the bonds fully redeemed on completion of this refinancing’.
It suggested that talks with the lender were at ‘an advanced stage’, but there has been no definitive break-through.
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I am with Jamestaylor on this. In business is this an acceptable practice, or are we kicking the can down the road?
AIUI, not only is acceptable practice from what we understand it is prudent and best practice.
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Well, if FRP and the Board etc front up at training tomorrow....that's a healthy sign that something good might still evolve.
At least they are showing their faces.
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In America, which gets a lot of press as this route is most often used, they call it Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, but over there it can last for years. A lot of big businesses, like car makers and airlines, have used this method to gain some breathing space. A new owner,
It became such a problem with some of the airlines that the joke was that they were going in to Chapter 33.
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Thanks everyone for helping me understand - I'm not well versed in this area!
So, these 14 days are massive. Yes, it's good to see Wasps don't appear to be hitting the panic button but I'll take this with a huge pinch of salt due to the statements that have come out in the past.
I agree with everyone about the state of rugby. All clubs will struggle unless you have a moneybags behind you (Bristol, Bath, Saracens).
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Thanks everyone for helping me understand - I'm not well versed in this area!
So, these 14 days are massive. Yes, it's good to see Wasps don't appear to be hitting the panic button but I'll take this with a huge pinch of salt due to the statements that have come out in the past.
I agree with everyone about the state of rugby. All clubs will struggle unless you have a moneybags behind you (Bristol, Bath, Saracens).
Just to confirm, whilst we haven't hit the panic button we have hit the only button that was available to us.
Unfortunately if you look at the cash flow that the Wasps group generates currently the only way the club gets out of the financial mess its in is through a new owner who can write off £35m of debt like Nigel Wray did at Saracens. Until that occurs, we are a rugby club at the mercy of it's creditors.
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If you were a rich potential owner, why would you write off £35m+ ?
Presumably you'd only do that if you had an affinity for the club.
So, the next question would be "where were you ~10 years ago?"
I worry that there isn't a rich benefactor with enough love for Wasps to write off that kind of debt
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I am with Jamestaylor on this. In business is this an acceptable practice, or are we kicking the can down the road?
AIUI, not only is acceptable practice from what we understand it is prudent and best practice.
True.
But.
Who is going to lend money to Wasps? Nobody in their right minds. I do not believe any financial institution would dump over £50m (which is what is needed, and probably then some) in to a black hole, with no hope of repayment (and, let's face it, there would be no hope of repayment).
So, I look to the statements made, including that email. 'Refinancing package'. Not loan, investment or bonds or anything indicating a traditional injection of funds from a financial institution seeking to make a financial gain on capital investment made.
All refinancing package means is, it is one sum of money to consolidate and pay off a number of debts and loans. Refinancing does not indicate the source of funds, nor what will be given in return. Any money given will, in my opinion, be lost, so whatever is given in return must be non-financial. Ownership maybe? It is a poisoned chalice (because any owner would likely have to inject more funds in to the future).
Rather like buying a pint of beer. I don't need to, I don't really gain from buying it, but I want to. I get the warm glow that you get from meeting a desire. Granted, £50+m is a bit more than a fiver, but that rather depends on who you are.
We all know Derek has loved and worked hard for Wasps, cost him a lot of money. But, all things come to an end at some point.
Cecil Duckworth isn't in charge at Warriors either, yet look what he did for them.
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If you were a rich potential owner, why would you write off £35m+ ?
Presumably you'd only do that if you had an affinity for the club.
So, the next question would be "where were you ~10 years ago?
I worry that there isn't a rich benefactor with enough love for Wasps to write off that kind of debt"
You do get a stadium in return for that £35m+, but your point is exactly the problem, there doesn't appear to be a person that meets the criteria of obscenely rich and loves Wasps rugby club.
It's a league of rich mens toys and you either have an ultra wealthy benefactor or you don't.
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I guess the fundamental question is: are Wasps good for the £35M?
And to answer that we need to know whatvthe current situation is (we don't) and what the future business plan looks like.
We have no idea what projections there are, and so all we can do is speculate.
Pre covid, did people think Wasps were good for the bond based on assets and future business projections? The answer is clearly yes.
And so could we not be good for it given time in a post covid world?
I'd say possibly.
And so there may well be a financial institution or investment group willing to provide funds up front to clear the immediate problem.
Which only leaves the question how many people's souls have to be sold to secure it?
I guess we'll see.
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I think it’s right that this was the only option given the HMRC pending action. It’s the right thing for Directors to have done. I think this is shaping up more like a takeover than a loan etc. One things for sure we’ll know the outcome very soon as it has to play out in the next 20 days or so.
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If you were a rich potential owner, why would you write off £35m+ ?
Presumably you'd only do that if you had an affinity for the club.
So, the next question would be "where were you ~10 years ago?"
I worry that there isn't a rich benefactor with enough love for Wasps to write off that kind of debt
9 years ago a man named Jim Ratcliffe had been busy buying up petro chemical facilities that the big companies, like ICI and BP, were trying to get out of, and he was hugely in debt as a result. Reportedly hundreds of millions. He paid that debt off, but it took him a few years. Around 2015 he started to make headway and started to make substantial positive cashflow. Now, he is estimated to have a personal wealth of £20+bn. Right now, with the current crisis, he is making as much as £50m a week.
He is known to be able to buy Man Utd with petty cash, if the Glazers were willing to sell (they are not). He is, as they say 'in the market'. Is he a rugby fan? I do not know. He attended Beverley Grammar School and most likely would have played rugby there.
He sponsors a cycling team. He owns two football clubs. He has a willingness to invest in sport.
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The other thing is that someone interested in premiership football ownership can afford to run a rugby club without blinking.
A high number of premiership footballers earn more than £100k per week.
That £100k per week is essentially the entire annual salary cap for a rugby club.
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Could well be a pre cursor to a takeover - no idea what that field of people looks like. Think we need to hold tight on the doomsday scenario predictions - if you read between the lines on what are more reliable sources there are some nuggets of hope in there.
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The other thing is that someone interested in premiership football ownership can afford to run a rugby club without blinking.
A high number of premiership footballers earn more than £100k per week.
That £100k per week is essentially the entire annual salary cap for a rugby club.
If SISU weren't an absolute nightmare to deal with I imagine the potential of owning Wasps and CCFC would be appealing to certain people.
You get a premier league level ground, an area with fantastic footballing academy talent, you get to split the running costs with the rugby club and you would do away with al ot of the bad blood between the two clubs.
If only!
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The other thing is that someone interested in premiership football ownership can afford to run a rugby club without blinking.
A high number of premiership footballers earn more than £100k per week.
That £100k per week is essentially the entire annual salary cap for a rugby club.
If SISU weren't an absolute nightmare to deal with I imagine the potential of owning Wasps and CCFC would be appealing to certain people.
You get a premier league level ground, an area with fantastic footballing academy talent, you get to split the running costs with the rugby club and you would do away with al ot of the bad blood between the two clubs.
If only!
That would be my days as a Wasps fan finished.
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The other thing is that someone interested in premiership football ownership can afford to run a rugby club without blinking.
A high number of premiership footballers earn more than £100k per week.
That £100k per week is essentially the entire annual salary cap for a rugby club.
If SISU weren't an absolute nightmare to deal with I imagine the potential of owning Wasps and CCFC would be appealing to certain people.
You get a premier league level ground, an area with fantastic footballing academy talent, you get to split the running costs with the rugby club and you would do away with al ot of the bad blood between the two clubs.
If only!
That would be my days as a Wasps fan finished.
Any owner, or SISU?
I'd certainly not be against a joint owner, but wouldn't fancy SISU. However CCFC is up for sale I believe, so a joint owner coming in could be beneficial.
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The other thing is that someone interested in premiership football ownership can afford to run a rugby club without blinking.
A high number of premiership footballers earn more than £100k per week.
That £100k per week is essentially the entire annual salary cap for a rugby club.
If SISU weren't an absolute nightmare to deal with I imagine the potential of owning Wasps and CCFC would be appealing to certain people.
You get a premier league level ground, an area with fantastic footballing academy talent, you get to split the running costs with the rugby club and you would do away with al ot of the bad blood between the two clubs.
If only!
That would be my days as a Wasps fan finished.
Any owner, or SISU?
I'd certainly not be against a joint owner, but wouldn't fancy SISU. However CCFC is up for sale I believe, so a joint owner coming in could be beneficial.
Should have been clear, not SISU buy wasps, but a new owner buy both.
Absolute fantasy land but if you were wanting to buy a football club with a view to getting them to the premier league CCFC must be tempting, you then take on Wasps to get the stadium and split the operating costs.
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Lead story on Midlands Today tonight
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You get a premier league level ground, an area with fantastic footballing academy talent, you get to split the running costs with the rugby club and you would do away with al ot of the bad blood between the two clubs.
If only!
Again, last statement is so pertinent.
The relationship between the 2 clubs is probably as broken as it could possibly be.
The majority of fans on either side mostly hate the others' owners. There seems to be a minority of fans who hate each other, but that probably stems from individual bickering rather than the issue at hand.
So, a joint owner between the 2 clubs is potentially the only way to mend it.
But as VV has suggested, I couldn't see myself supporting Wasps owned by SISU.
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that statement sounds quite positive but we've heard loads of positive things over the last few years & the last few months, none of which have turned out to be true. I hope there's a solution out there but we can't keep being told there's light at the end of the tunnel when the tunnel never seems to end.
stop telling us there's a solution just around the corner & actually deliver it!
Absolutely. This is the rub.
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Looks like my doom mongering all those years might be coming true. Very sad. Haven't been a Wasps supporters since the 2017 final though and have never been to Coventry.
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Oh my God !! Lazarus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Looks like my doom mongering all those years might be coming true. Very sad. Haven't been a Wasps supporters since the 2017 final though and have never been to Coventry.
And yet here you are.
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That is a shame. I respect those who did not buy into the move, I would like to say that it is not a question of being proved right or wrong, just a question of whether you view Wasps s geographical or not. Personally geography mattered little to me- I am English and live in Wales, it is all miles to me. I loved the galactico era- though the real galacticos were home grown - Wadey remains my favourite Wasp, and fiver was sublime. I also loved the newbies coming through. Willises et al. have been heart warming. I would loved to have stayed at AP, but recognised we needed to.own it.
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Looks like my doom mongering all those years might be coming true. Very sad. Haven't been a Wasps supporters since the 2017 final though and have never been to Coventry.
Might be coming true. Might not.
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Oh my God !! Lazarus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ha ha. Glad I am so fondly remembered. Now a Blackheath fan. Better National 2 than bust.
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Not being hugely knowledgeable about these kind of things, is there any possibility this is a move by Wasps as a rugby club to extricate itself from ownership of the stadium? It seems a bit of a coincidence that CCFC are up for sale - if they had an interested party prepared to buy the football club then surely they would want the stadium as part of the package?
Wasps could then use the stadium sale to refinance the bonds and pay HMRC, locate the club at Henley and ground share at the CBS or Sixways. Or go so far as to merge with Worcester.
I suppose there will be plenty to conjecture over the coming days, hopefully without any more ‘Mission accomplished’ statements from Lol..
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That is a shame. I respect those who did not buy into the move, I would like to say that it is not a question of being proved right or wrong, just a question of whether you view Wasps s geographical or not. Personally geography mattered little to me- I am English and live in Wales, it is all miles to me. I loved the galactico era- though the real galacticos were home grown - Wadey remains my favourite Wasp, and fiver was sublime. I also loved the newbies coming through. Willises et al. have been heart warming. I would loved to have stayed at AP, but recognised we needed to.own it.
I always maintained that the organic finances of the professional club meant it should be playing in National 1 at Twyford Avenue. That was a consistent position. The move to Coventry was always fraught with danger and risk.
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Oh my God !! Lazarus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ha ha. Glad I am so fondly remembered. Now a Blackheath fan. Better National 2 than bust.
There’s me hoping you’d returned to announce you’d won Euromillions and were buying the club..
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Well waking up to this this morning in Asia has not been the greatest start to the day.
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There was me thinking the day couldn't get any worse and Beckenham turns up to gloat tell us all he told us so.....
Thanks for that Becks, hope this makes you feel better
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Oh my God !! Lazarus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ha ha. Glad I am so fondly remembered. Now a Blackheath fan. Better National 2 than bust.
There’s me hoping you’d returned to announce you’d won Euromillions and were buying the club..
Ha ha.
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There was me thinking the day couldn't get any worse and Beckenham turns up to gloat tell us all he told us so.....
Thanks for that Becks, hope this makes you feel better
Chin up.
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If you were a rich potential owner, why would you write off £35m+ ?
Presumably you'd only do that if you had an affinity for the club.
So, the next question would be "where were you ~10 years ago?"
I worry that there isn't a rich benefactor with enough love for Wasps to write off that kind of debt
9 years ago a man named Jim Ratcliffe had been busy buying up petro chemical facilities that the big companies, like ICI and BP, were trying to get out of, and he was hugely in debt as a result. Reportedly hundreds of millions. He paid that debt off, but it took him a few years. Around 2015 he started to make headway and started to make substantial positive cashflow. Now, he is estimated to have a personal wealth of £20+bn. Right now, with the current crisis, he is making as much as £50m a week.
He is known to be able to buy Man Utd with petty cash, if the Glazers were willing to sell (they are not). He is, as they say 'in the market'. Is he a rugby fan? I do not know. He attended Beverley Grammar School and most likely would have played rugby there.
He sponsors a cycling team. He owns two football clubs. He has a willingness to invest in sport.
This is the solution I have wondered about for a while. Sir Dave Brailsford looks after Ineos’ sporting portfolio which has also included Americas cup, F1 and projects like the sub 2 hour marathon. Wasps set up with a women’s team, the netball and a good stadium might appeal more than if we were just a rugby club. Radcliffe owns Nice football club and their stadium is amazing. It is all peanuts compared to his bid for Man Utd but if he does get Man U I can’t see him bothering with us. It might be a very long shot but I think it might be the only shot and not completely beyond the realms of possibility.
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sad to see nothing has changed in your world Becks, still the same sad little man you were all those years ago.
can't say I'm that surprised really....
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I haven't given Wasps a second thought for a long time until I read the news today. I was not alone in my objections to the move to Coventry. Richmond, London Scottish etc are more sustainable clubs and still play in their home city where they should be playing.
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I haven't given Wasps a second thought for a long time until I read the news today. I was not alone in my objections to the move to Coventry. Richmond, London Scottish etc are more sustainable clubs and still play in their home city where they should be playing.
Why are you here?
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Because he has nothing else to do. He is a soul-mate of Dehuminator. Don't let the bastards grind you down Waspies.
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[size=78%]Ultimately he predicted it correctly.[/size]
Predicted the battle with the ccfc owners, predicted teams regularly breaching the salary cap, and predicted a pandemic all contributing to the financial problems we're facing... Or at least he just hoped that something would go bad.
SBSam was also correct that the recent signs were more significant than we hoped they were.
But ultimately, who gives a fuck about being right.
I'm glad that Beckenham has found a new love and therefore hasn't felt the need to tell others how to behave or what to like.
I still hold out hope that we don't find ourselves having to think about doing the same thing
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To be honest I really hate being in Coventry, it’s a 3 1/2 hour round trip to watch a game now, with a lot of games now being played on a Sunday. We have been so poorly run in the last 2 years, that game day is really a non-event nowadays.
My disappointment is we have a selection of excellent youngsters coming through and have the potential of a great team. The only problem is we have no money and therefore have a poor coaching set up, to potentially see the Willis brothers playing for someone else, is going to be difficult.
A lot of bullshit has come from the club, so it’s difficult to believe anything they say. I’m really disappointed in the way the club has treated the bond holders and the delay in paying the money back. It would be nice to actually get some truth from the club and stop upsetting the locals, why should they support a poorly run club
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Refinance info to be given to @WaspsRugby players and staff today after application for administration "We have arranged for our restructuring partner, FRP, together with board members, to be available at the training ground in person tomorrow to answer any questions directly."
https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1572846136322400263?s=46&t=rsbpO3Xr9SCtU7kMZFfcaw
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To be honest I really hate being in Coventry, it’s a 3 1/2 hour round trip to watch a game now, with a lot of games now being played on a Sunday. We have been so poorly run in the last 2 years, that game day is really a non-event nowadays.
My disappointment is we have a selection of excellent youngsters coming through and have the potential of a great team. The only problem is we have no money and therefore have a poor coaching set up, to potentially see the Willis brothers playing for someone else, is going to be difficult.
A lot of bullshit has come from the club, so it’s difficult to believe anything they say. I’m really disappointed in the way the club has treated the bond holders and the delay in paying the money back. It would be nice to actually get some truth from the club and stop upsetting the locals, why should they support a poorly run club
That’s one way of looking at it Westy. Another is that after the extreme circumstances of covid we’re lucky the club is still going. It’s core business is sport, entertainment and conferencing - all of which got utterly hammered. I suspect we have no idea of the work and efforts that have gone on to keep us going. So it may be that we’re excellently run against an extremely challenging backdrop. And by the way - this is not a done deal - keep the faith.
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... why should they support a poorly run club
I stopped going to the Ricoh (as it was then) when both my brother and dad found it too difficult to come, leaving me on my own. When in big crowds and busy places, I need someone with me in case I melt down, someone who will calm me and take me to a quiet, dark room. It has not happened that I have needed it at a game, but I have changed my life to minimise such events (my last melt down was at home a few weeks ago).
The problem is that the club is now more than ever, but even a few years ago, run on a shoestring budget and is simply under-resourced. Even the best intentioned people cannot run it well under these circumstances, and the people at Wasps are super nice folk.
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Refinance info to be given to @WaspsRugby players and staff today after application for administration "We have arranged for our restructuring partner, FRP, together with board members, to be available at the training ground in person tomorrow to answer any questions directly."
https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1572846136322400263?s=46&t=rsbpO3Xr9SCtU7kMZFfcaw
Will someone be able to provide a precis of where we are, today? I understand the reason for the application, but acknowledge that it's not a destination and it would be great to get an endorsed position and get a feel for our prospects.
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I’m not saying they are not nice people and I’m sure DR cares a great deal for Wasps.
the CBS arena was meant to be place that brought in extra money to help run the rugby club, ‘the richest in Europe’ before the pandemic it was losing money and therefore making it harder to run the club. I know in the recent statement it says the arena is the busiest it’s ‘ever’ been, really, is that really the case.
Maybe I have such a dislike for Coventry and to see the club in this position, that I’m finding it difficult to believe anything now. Rugby is a very entertaining game, especially the way Wasps play it, supporting another team is going to be difficult.
Maybe this is effecting the players, it must be difficult not to have it in their thoughts. That’s maybe why the basics are hard to come by now. If you’re in a good place you don’t even think about the basics it just happens
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Refinance info to be given to @WaspsRugby players and staff today after application for administration "We have arranged for our restructuring partner, FRP, together with board members, to be available at the training ground in person tomorrow to answer any questions directly."
https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1572846136322400263?s=46&t=rsbpO3Xr9SCtU7kMZFfcaw
Will someone be able to provide a precis of where we are, today? I understand the reason for the application, but acknowledge that it's not a destination and it would be great to get an endorsed position and get a feel for our prospects.
Simple explantion : It's a pre-emptive move to keep HMRC at bay whilst Wasps get deal(s) done to sort out financing once and for all.
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Refinance info to be given to @WaspsRugby players and staff today after application for administration "We have arranged for our restructuring partner, FRP, together with board members, to be available at the training ground in person tomorrow to answer any questions directly."
https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1572846136322400263?s=46&t=rsbpO3Xr9SCtU7kMZFfcaw
Will someone be able to provide a precis of where we are, today? I understand the reason for the application, but acknowledge that it's not a destination and it would be great to get an endorsed position and get a feel for our prospects.
Simple explantion : It's a pre-emptive move to keep HMRC at bay whilst Wasps get deal(s) done to sort out financing once and for all.
That's ok - I got what we've done and why. I was hoping that if board members are talking/available for players today - we might get some more detail about that financing progress/journey?
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I think the toughest part as a fan, is the lack of clarity or insight.
Nobody seems particularly well-informed of what's actually going on:
- Other than vague details the Press don't really seem to know
- Bondholders don't seem to know
- Fans don't seem to know
- ex-Players have been pretty quiet about it; the likes of Goodey, Jim, Flats when they surely know more with their connections
- Eggchasers are wildly ill-informed about it (Believing it to be £17m or something on their 'Wasps emergency Pod' last night)
It's only Wasps Execs that would seemingly know. I've appreciated the radio silence on transfers; they've almost always turned out to be interesting when annouced than 'meh', but would appreciate a little more. Typically we see more understanding and intent to help when people understand situations better. On the other side, people hate being blind-sided by bad news and that's when you tend to hear more frustration and anger.
(I'm not suggesting yesterdays news was blind-siding people - We've all known finances were stretched, although I didn't personally think yesterdays news was something we'd hear).
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In fairness, they are meeting with staff today. The staff deserve to hear it straight from the horse's mouth rather than through the same media channels that we rely on as supporters and other interested parties. I might be very unhappy with a lot of things, but I don't feel any entitlement to know the ins and outs before those whose livelihoods depend on it. Yes I'm worried, but others have reason to be a lot more worried than me.
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It feels as tho' this has been going on for some time now, maybe years.
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Personally as long as the players and staff are assured their living is sound for the moment and have the machinations fully explained to them I am satisfied.
As STHs we can feel aggrieved at being under the mushroom but it is really understandable.
As for the "I told you so merchants" aren't you wonderful people.
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In fairness, they are meeting with staff today. The staff deserve to hear it straight from the horse's mouth rather than through the same media channels that we rely on as supporters and other interested parties. I might be very unhappy with a lot of things, but I don't feel any entitlement to know the ins and outs before those whose livelihoods depend on it. Yes I'm worried, but others have reason to be a lot more worried than me.
Again, agree 100%, I was just wondering when those of us who support might expect some more info.
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Totally agree with you Neils.
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Lansdown taking a bit of a swipe at "disappointing" CVC in light of Wasps' and Worcester's plight.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62992223
If, as seems inevitable, Worcester follow Wasps down the administration route, PRL may be reluctant to relegate both, and would surely be unable to relegate one without the other. If and when that particular precedent is set, then I wonder how many other clubs will follow suit without fear of relegation.
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But might solve their issue of a 13-team league with 14 being too many and 12 being about right. Us and Warriors go down, Ealing go up.
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Personally as long as the players and staff are assured their living is sound for the moment and have the machinations fully explained to them I am satisfied.
As STHs we can feel aggrieved at being under the mushroom but it is really understandable.
As for the "I told you so merchants" aren't you wonderful people.
Problem is Neils, the told you so’s have jumped in a bit too quickly in their excitement. There’s loads to play out in this yet with a positive outcome more than possible. But you’re right, I find it peculiar in the extreme to bracket yourself as a fan but be clearly pleased with what’s happening (or what they believe is happening).
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Lansdown taking a bit of a swipe at "disappointing" CVC in light of Wasps' and Worcester's plight.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62992223
If, as seems inevitable, Worcester follow Wasps down the administration route, PRL may be reluctant to relegate both, and would surely be unable to relegate one without the other. If and when that particular precedent is set, then I wonder how many other clubs will follow suit without fear of relegation.
At this stage Wasps are not seeking to go into administration. That is the option of last resort. They have asked for administrators to be appointed. This enables the club to hopefully resolve financing and stop HMRC issuing a winding up order.
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Lansdown taking a bit of a swipe at "disappointing" CVC in light of Wasps' and Worcester's plight.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62992223
If, as seems inevitable, Worcester follow Wasps down the administration route, PRL may be reluctant to relegate both, and would surely be unable to relegate one without the other. If and when that particular precedent is set, then I wonder how many other clubs will follow suit without fear of relegation.
Lansdown isn't wrong, from my perspective it looks like all CVC have done is bought a stake in the Prem, I don't see that they have done anything to grow the product.
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The frustrating thing is we've lurched from one extreme to the other - having no stadium to create a revenue stream to having a stadium much too big that has proved a financial black hole.
People behind Wasps courted the Ricoh/CBS for a long time before we moved there. I remember the astonishment and anger when Tony Copsey and co announced we were playing 'home' European games up there against Munster and Saints.
It's never felt like our home to me and I really miss the simple afternoon/evening jaunt up the road to Adams Park to watch whatever game we were playing. A beer in the tent or clubhouse, a chat with regulars, players, a bit of atmosphere etc. A 4 hour round trip, good for £200 all in and taking a whole day, a poor result, performance and atmosphere latterly being the norm, has meant the club has become more remote to me. I was happy as long as it meant the club survived and thrived but for this to happen makes the move a bit harder to take.
Its not about me though, I just want what's best for the club, so fingers crossed something works out.
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Not clear on the source of this, so take with a pinch of salt - But copied from the ADVFN Board discussing the Wasps Bond:
"From this morning's meeting: So, as we know, Wasps players and staff were called to a 9am meeting this morning to discuss the club's situation. We understand this lasted around 20 minutes and people were told the club was in advanced talks and things will move fast with the next step - with the overall tone being a 'hopeful' one. But there is a waiting game to be played. There was a feeling relayed that HMRC's issuing of a winding-up order came as a surprise. There's no suggestion at all that the game against Bath will not go ahead, and training is continuing as normal today before the group travels south for Friday night's game at The Rec."
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From Bobby re. this morning's meeting.
We understand this lasted around 20 minutes and people were told the club was in advanced talks and things will move fast with the next step - with the overall tone being a 'hopeful' one. But there is a waiting game to be played.
There was a feeling relayed that HMRC's issuing of a winding-up order came as a surprise.
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Thanks Rossm. The HMRC element is an interesting one. Wonder if they're being militant, or we've been taking the piss.
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Not clear on the source of this, so take with a pinch of salt - But copied from the ADVFN Board discussing the Wasps Bond:
"From this morning's meeting: So, as we know, Wasps players and staff were called to a 9am meeting this morning to discuss the club's situation. We understand this lasted around 20 minutes and people were told the club was in advanced talks and things will move fast with the next step - with the overall tone being a 'hopeful' one. But there is a waiting game to be played. There was a feeling relayed that HMRC's issuing of a winding-up order came as a surprise. There's no suggestion at all that the game against Bath will not go ahead, and training is continuing as normal today before the group travels south for Friday night's game at The Rec."
I was the one who posted that on ADVNF, it was from the Coventry Telegraph: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-live-administration-latest-bath-25078505
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From Bobby re. this morning's meeting.
We understand this lasted around 20 minutes and people were told the club was in advanced talks and things will move fast with the next step - with the overall tone being a 'hopeful' one. But there is a waiting game to be played.
There was a feeling relayed that HMRC's issuing of a winding-up order came as a surprise.
In my experience no deal ever gets done before the last minute. Perhaps HMRC are fed up of the messing about and want to force everyone’s hand?
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... why should they support a poorly run club
I stopped going to the Ricoh (as it was then) when both my brother and dad found it too difficult to come, leaving me on my own. When in big crowds and busy places, I need someone with me in case I melt down, someone who will calm me and take me to a quiet, dark room. It has not happened that I have needed it at a game, but I have changed my life to minimise such events (my last melt down was at home a few weeks ago).
The problem is that the club is now more than ever, but even a few years ago, run on a shoestring budget and is simply under-resourced. Even the best intentioned people cannot run it well under these circumstances, and the people at Wasps are super nice folk.
Sending you warm wishes Nelly.
That must be difficult to live with. I feel for you.
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Lansdown taking a bit of a swipe at "disappointing" CVC in light of Wasps' and Worcester's plight.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62992223
If, as seems inevitable, Worcester follow Wasps down the administration route, PRL may be reluctant to relegate both, and would surely be unable to relegate one without the other. If and when that particular precedent is set, then I wonder how many other clubs will follow suit without fear of relegation.
Lansdown isn't wrong, from my perspective it looks like all CVC have done is bought a stake in the Prem, I don't see that they have done anything to grow the product.
We as rugby fans, have to take a look at ourselves and challenge our own entrenched opinions and beliefs.
I know there were many of us that were hugely sceptical when CVC crowbarred their way into rugby, worried that it would all become about money and that they would meddle too much in something we all loved.
Well now some people are complaining that they haven't got involved enough.
So I think there's some learning there and a harsh reality for all us fans.
When rugby does get its house in order - in whatever shape, size or razzmatazz that is - we need to support it.
Otherwise, through a lack of inertia and incoming law suits, we could really see the demise of the game.
There's going to have to be an influx of new ideas to capture the younger generations...otherwise, the sport could die out with the older generation of fans it has.
So, we as fans, need to become much more open-minded to new initiatives and creativity...before it's too late.
We have a collective responsibility to find ways to sustain the game....and not simply complain from our keyboards.
I hope the higher echelons of rugby tap into the loyal, diehard fans and their ideas.
Create a place to allow us to pool ideas.
Ultimately, rugby is about community and coming together.
And some French and Irish clubs (slightly different culture and setup in both society and sport) have a good template.
Other clubs around the world need to learn and share ideas amongst themselves.
Otherwise, in a decade or two...rugby really might sink down the plug hole.
We all need to play a part, however big or small, in the future of the game.
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The fact is the teams costs too much to run based on their revenues and the fans don't pay enough for the product to make it viable. This board is full of people always looking for a free stream or paying the foreign market rate via a VPN to watch the local product. How do you increase revenues when everyone wants it for free?
Even the RFU, the richest union in the world, that makes more money per home game than it should know what to do with nearly bankrupted itself over spending on Twickenham development plans.
The sport is doomed, and that's before the court cases for long term injury. Then the whole sport will call in the administrators.
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The sport is doomed
By what you've said there surely ALL professional sport would be doomed? Football, the most marketable sport in the world, is spending hugely above its means, Man Utd, probably one of the most valuable football clubs made a £115m loss !!
I can't think of any professional sport that is flush with cash, or ever really has been, except perhaps F1...
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This board is full of people always looking for a free stream or paying the foreign market rate via a VPN to watch the local product. How do you increase revenues when everyone wants it for free?
I'd just like to point out that if you pay a foreign streamer, then indirectly you will still be paying PRL, as the stream you subscribe to, will be rented from PRL. I am one of those who do this. I have always paid over the several years that I have been watching streamed rugby. I started doing this with Rugbypass as I could watch every Wasps' game live. I didn't have to pay either Sky and/or BT. I don't want to pay for other sports such as football that are included in their expensive subscription packages. I only want to watch rugby and nothing else. I would abandon my foreign stream if PRTV showed all games, rather than just the ones that are not being broadcast by Sky or BT. Yes, I do save myself some money. FWIW. I have never used a 'free' stream, particularly the one that comes out of Russia.
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Of course the sport isn’t doomed. That really is a bit sensationalist. It may change/adapt/re-model but it’s certainly not doomed.
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I'd just like to point out that if you pay a foreign streamer, then indirectly you will still be paying PRL, as the stream you subscribe to, will be rented from PRL.
The sport prices differently for different markets. Is that fair? Maybe not, but circumventing that model is depriving the sport of money, not adding to it. I happen to agree with you on almost all your points about wanting a non-BT/SKY option that enables paying for Rugby, not football. I hoped that was what CVC injecting money would enable, sadly until the current agreed TV deal expires it can't, in the UK market. Maybe it will be possible in the next TV rights cycle?
As for the "sensationalist" use of the word doomed. If those court cases get traction and aren't summarily dismissed it is just that. The sport has no money, any finding against it will be terminal.
There just isn't the never ending line of rich idiots that there are in football looking to lose a fortune. I thought we'd found a different model, should have just found a richer idiot.
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Lwasp I don't want it for free, I would gladly pay Wasps for a stream even if I could get one for free but a Wasps stream does not exist, I subscribe to BT but they only show a few Wasps games and I resent paying PRTV £5 knowing Wasps probably get zero, that's why I look for alternative streams.
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This board is full of people always looking for a free stream or paying the foreign market rate via a VPN to watch the local product. How do you increase revenues when everyone wants it for free?
I'd just like to point out that if you pay a foreign streamer, then indirectly you will still be paying PRL, as the stream you subscribe to, will be rented from PRL. I am one of those who do this. I have always paid over the several years that I have been watching streamed rugby. I started doing this with Rugbypass as I could watch every Wasps' game live. I didn't have to pay either Sky and/or BT. I don't want to pay for other sports such as football that are included in their expensive subscription packages. I only want to watch rugby and nothing else. I would abandon my foreign stream if PRTV showed all games, rather than just the ones that are not being broadcast by Sky or BT. Yes, I do save myself some money. FWIW. I have never used a 'free' stream, particularly the one that comes out of Russia.
I would also add that it's regularly stated here that people would love to pay Wasps for a WaspsTV type subscription.
The majority of fans aren't against paying to watch rugby. Most are against paying for the other stuff they won't watch offered by sky etc.
Admittedly, I have more subscriptions for TV and sport than I care to think about.... But there's still a lot of games that it wasn't possible to watch
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Lwasp I don't want it for free, I would gladly pay Wasps for a stream even if I could get one for free but a Wasps stream does not exist, I subscribe to BT but they only show a few Wasps games and I resent paying PRTV £5 knowing Wasps probably get zero, that's why I look for alternative streams.
Some money must get to wasps otherwise clubs wouldn’t have agreed to it.
https://www.digitaltveurope.com/2022/09/22/premiership-rugby-and-united-rugby-championship-strengthen-dtc-business-with-pti-digital-deal/
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Match days have got to be more then the match. I want to be entertained before and after the game.
Why does the Twickenham matches get 80,000 with most tickets selling over a hundred pounds. I’m going twice to Twickenham in the autumn because the whole day is fun. I get to Twickenham 2 hours before k/o have a drink, eat something, a live band normally playing, it’s fun.
Do we have players speaking in the arena before the game, is there a live band. Easy access to a good selection of food and drinks. I want access to players who are not playing, chatting before the game.
I’m sorry but Sarries have caused a lot of what is going on, but smashing the salary cap and paying players £650,000 a year. Rugby can’t afford that.
I’m happy to pay wasps a tv subscription, I’m happy to pay good money for it. Especially if it had more news about Wasps.
What I don’t want to do is drive to Coventry find it difficult to get a drink have no pre game entertainment, watch a team with half the top players not playing in it, that has got to stop
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I go to Wasps to watch the game. Not really bothered about anything else.
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Certainly, I'd happily pay Wasps direct rather than stream from overseas so as to watch all Wasps games live. Unfortunately because of infirmity and distance (nearly 400 miles round trip from Hastings to Coventry) it is impossible for me to attend the CBSA.
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As for matchday experience, that'd be different for different people
When I used to have a season ticket, I'd often get food elsewhere before the game, but maybe arrive a bit early, soak up some atmosphere in the fan village if there was one.
See some friends, maybe hear from non playing players with Kirky.
But after the game, I was straight off to get home.
It was mostly about the match, other stuff was a nice to have
Now that I have young kids and have had to give up my season ticket, if I went to a game, I'd really appreciate something family oriented happening before the game, like they often ran in the fan village.
I.e. something that a kid would remember and enjoy even if they weren't too bothered about the match itself
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I go to Wasps to watch the game. Not really bothered about anything else.
Same with a 4 plus hour round trip if roads are kind maybe get some chips plus and a tea. Straight off afterwards.
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I go to Wasps to watch the game. Not really bothered about anything else.
Fine if that’s what you want, but you are hard core supporters, we need more supporters. obviously for a lot of people that isn’t enough, especially if half the team is missing. I want to watch the best players playing
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Rugby needs to heed the words of Mr Micawber:
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."
It's that simple.
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I certainly don’t think we need to get into anyone justifying what they do re attendance/watching etc - entirely up to the individual. I am a little perplexed at the match day bit. Personally I find it very easy to get a pint and some food if I want it - in a very nice environment. It’s patently obvious that some of the matchday bells and whistles have had to go due to the financial strain. The club have stated they will look at this. But they can’t work miracles. They’ve probably been doing that just to keep us going. Time to stick with them.
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The words of Mr Micawber are simple right up until the point the Sarries accountant closes the blinds, dims the lights and in a sinister tone utters, "Now, what would you like the accounts to show?"
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I'm another who would happily pay for a Wasps TV streaming service.
Also a match is a day out for me, its 2-3 hours in both directions, and the fan village was always part of the experience. The kids getting face paint, and me pretending I didn't want to so they could "make" me. My daughter meeting the Netball team, grabbing some food, another oversized foam hand, the whole thing.
I'm happy to come for just the rugby, but I'm far less likely to if the kids don't get the festival experience, because they don't want to.
That's what makes Twickers work so well whether it's an international or a domestic game. Walking towards the stadium and grabbing a burger on the way, looking for faces I know in the crowd, searching out people that have the same shirt as me, feeling the excitement in the air.
If we can't recreate that at the CBS it is never going to attract much un the way of new support. If we only cater to the diehard fans, we are on a downhill slope to an empty ground.
Of course we need to keep hold of the arena first I guess so the rest of it is moot.
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This board is full of people always looking for a free stream or paying the foreign market rate via a VPN to watch the local product. How do you increase revenues when everyone wants it for free?
I'd just like to point out that if you pay a foreign streamer, then indirectly you will still be paying PRL, as the stream you subscribe to, will be rented from PRL. I am one of those who do this. I have always paid over the several years that I have been watching streamed rugby. I started doing this with Rugbypass as I could watch every Wasps' game live. I didn't have to pay either Sky and/or BT. I don't want to pay for other sports such as football that are included in their expensive subscription packages. I only want to watch rugby and nothing else. I would abandon my foreign stream if PRTV showed all games, rather than just the ones that are not being broadcast by Sky or BT. Yes, I do save myself some money. FWIW. I have never used a 'free' stream, particularly the one that comes out of Russia.
I would also add that it's regularly stated here that people would love to pay Wasps for a WaspsTV type subscription.
The majority of fans aren't against paying to watch rugby. Most are against paying for the other stuff they won't watch offered by sky etc.
Admittedly, I have more subscriptions for TV and sport than I care to think about.... But there's still a lot of games that it wasn't possible to watch
+1
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In the old days we used to get accessibility to the players after the match.
That used to create a very loyal fan following, because you got to relate to them as fellow human beings.
Got to see their character.
I understand the game has become more professional, but that interaction hasn’t necessarily been replaced in regards to match day experience.
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The words of Mr Micawber are simple right up until the point the Sarries accountant closes the blinds, dims the lights and in a sinister tone utters, "Now, what would you like the accounts to show?"
ALL accountants do that for MOST businesses.
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I'm another who would happily pay for a Wasps TV streaming service.
Also a match is a day out for me, its 2-3 hours in both directions, and the fan village was always part of the experience. The kids getting face paint, and me pretending I didn't want to so they could "make" me. My daughter meeting the Netball team, grabbing some food, another oversized foam hand, the whole thing.
I'm happy to come for just the rugby, but I'm far less likely to if the kids don't get the festival experience, because they don't want to.
That's what makes Twickers work so well whether it's an international or a domestic game. Walking towards the stadium and grabbing a burger on the way, looking for faces I know in the crowd, searching out people that have the same shirt as me, feeling the excitement in the air.
If we can't recreate that at the CBS it is never going to attract much un the way of new support. If we only cater to the diehard fans, we are on a downhill slope to an empty ground.
Of course we need to keep hold of the arena first I guess so the rest of it is moot.
Totally agree
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When we moved the club knew they needed to attract new fans, and quite frankly they had good ideas for achieving it.
Unfortunately, we still need that.... But it's expensive so we can't
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The post galactico era has not produced a single bums off seat back, bar maybe Odogwu.
I might be sick of seeing a wasp scum beaten up at times, but not as much as I am of watching people who are not Wade, WLR, Fiver, Piatau et al dropping the *****ing ball every two minutes. Every club has a great back row player who puts people down. Tom and Jack Willis are phenomenal- but I can name plenty of other beasts in the prem who are equally breathtaking. I have never seen a winger as good as Wade in the prem. I have never seen a back line as lethal or as exciting as the fiver lead one.
The fan village is important of course, but playing entertaining rugby is equally imprtant and Lee wants Wasps fans to be as excited by the stuff that all the top clubs do- and I am sorry but Wasps have never been a set piece team, we may have often had great back rows but aggressive high risk high reward defence and scinitilating lines and clever play off 10 was the Wasps way over most of the last 20 years apart from the tail end of Dai's reign.
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When we moved the club knew they needed to attract new fans, and quite frankly they had good ideas for achieving it.
Unfortunately, we still need that.... But it's expensive so we can't
It didn't seem to extend beyond giving out an abundance of free tickets which it must be said seemed to cheapen the product. In truth it doesn't feel like there ever were more than that core of paying customers. Can't say we didn't have a favourable set of circumstances either, the council were very generous, city of culture coming at the right time etc.
Just hasn't worked out.
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When we moved the club knew they needed to attract new fans, and quite frankly they had good ideas for achieving it.
Unfortunately, we still need that.... But it's expensive so we can't
It didn't seem to extend beyond giving out an abundance of free tickets which it must be said seemed to cheapen the product. In truth it doesn't feel like there ever were more than that core of paying customers. Can't say we didn't have a favourable set of circumstances either, the council were very generous, city of culture coming at the right time etc.
Just hasn't worked out.
That's fair comment regarding the free tickets.
But I often wonder if free tickets are really a problem.... Especially to schools.
The only downside to free tickets is potential resentment from others who have paid full price. I don't know the answer to that.
Free tickets creates a bigger create. It may be semi artificial, but they're there. They may buy food and drink. If they come regularly, they may buy merch
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I've never seen much wrong with free tickets. Everybody likes a freebie.
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That's fair comment regarding the free tickets.
But I often wonder if free tickets are really a problem.... Especially to schools.
The only downside to free tickets is potential resentment from others who have paid full price. I don't know the answer to that.
Free tickets creates a bigger create. It may be semi artificial, but they're there. They may buy food and drink. If they come regularly, they may buy merch
A few freebies here and there to boost interest is one thing, but we were giving these out on a significant scale. At some point it was what, 20 free tickets for every season ticket holder? No wonder the business was losing so much money for as long as it was.
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I've never objected to paying for my tickets knowing others had got freebies. I prefer the atmosphere with more people, and understand that getting people there for the first time is very valuable.
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What I don’t want to do is drive to Coventry find it difficult to get a drink have no pre game entertainment, watch a team with half the top players not playing in it, that has got to stop
There was no problem getting a drink on Saturday. There was no bugger there. Purity bar was shut though, so options were limited.
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I've never objected to paying for my tickets knowing others had got freebies. I prefer the atmosphere with more people, and understand that getting people there for the first time is very valuable.
Absolutely right VV, agree 100%.
I’m a STH (who wouldn’t be?) and I love watching Wasps at the CBSA. Especially when it’s rocking with a big crowd.
As a retired Sales and Marketing Director I am strongly in favour of filling the stadium and IMHO that is going to need to last for many seasons. Of course Wasps need to adopt a ‘smart’ free ticket policy.
Wasps should not be deterred from this by the loud minority of jealous haters.
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I've never objected to paying for my tickets knowing others had got freebies. I prefer the atmosphere with more people, and understand that getting people there for the first time is very valuable.
Absolutely right VV, agree 100%.
I’m a STH (who wouldn’t be?) and I love watching Wasps at the CBSA. Especially when it’s rocking with a big crowd.
As a retired Sales and Marketing Director I am strongly in favour of filling the stadium and IMHO that is going to need to last for many seasons. Of course Wasps need to adopt a ‘smart’ free ticket policy.
Wasps should not be deterred from this by the loud minority of jealous haters.
+1
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That's fair comment regarding the free tickets.
But I often wonder if free tickets are really a problem.... Especially to schools.
The only downside to free tickets is potential resentment from others who have paid full price. I don't know the answer to that.
Free tickets creates a bigger create. It may be semi artificial, but they're there. They may buy food and drink. If they come regularly, they may buy merch
A few freebies here and there to boost interest is one thing, but we were giving these out on a significant scale. At some point it was what, 20 free tickets for every season ticket holder? No wonder the business was losing so much money for as long as it was.
I still don't see the problem or how it hurts the clubs finances.
If I can convince 20 people who wouldn't have gone to the game otherwise to come with me for free, then that's an extra 20 bums on seats.
Those 20 will eat and drink something. Maybe a lot, maybe not much, but again it's stuff that wouldn't have been sold otherwise.
If the stadium was always full and therefore these freebies were stopping others who wanted to pay from turning up, then I could see a problem.
But the stadium is never going to be full.
We could probably do free tickets for the whole South stand and it wouldn't be much of a problem
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The only issue with freebies is that someone might choose to hold off in the hope of freebies, denying the club a sale.Nothing else is an issue for me.
Other than that I have not met anyone unsatisfied with them.
Child tix have been free or a fiver for a while, and it made me and my dad visit more often, and the club shop probably got more purchases as a consequence. If that happens just once a year more often than it otherwise would, that's two adults (one senior), tix, plus tea, plus purity , plus snacks, (nothing for me to drink so it's just tea) plus a random club shop spend. In reality it probably happened more often extra when my daughter was younger as it gave my wife a break.
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The main issue is that the arena has to be staffed based on the number of tickets taken up, and often people with freebies don't actually come. Meaning that Wasps are paying staff to do very little.
I'm not sure I agree that this outweighs the benefits of having more people on seats, but I haven't seen the figures.
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If I can convince 20 people who wouldn't have gone to the game otherwise to come with me for free, then that's an extra 20 bums on seats.
Those 20 will eat and drink something. Maybe a lot, maybe not much, but again it's stuff that wouldn't have been sold otherwise.
Not only that, but they actually contribute to building an atmosphere in the stadium which enhances the experience for the rest of us.
Caveat: No point boosting attendance with freebies until they can provide enough catering staff to cope with the numbers!
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The main issue is that the arena has to be staffed based on the number of tickets taken up, and often people with freebies don't actually come. Meaning that Wasps are paying staff to do very little.
I'm not sure I agree that this outweighs the benefits of having more people on seats, but I haven't seen the figures.
Interesting and not something that most consider.
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The main issue is that the arena has to be staffed based on the number of tickets taken up, and often people with freebies don't actually come. Meaning that Wasps are paying staff to do very little.
I'm not sure I agree that this outweighs the benefits of having more people on seats, but I haven't seen the figures.
Interesting and not something that most consider.
System must show how many freebie’s go through turnstiles to know if it’s worth issuing them for future games?
Guess your point about staff needed for possible crowd is why Premiership cup games not included in season tickets- why pay out if loads not turning up but you have to just in case?
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Yeah, and that extra staff is:
Security
Stewards in the stands
Catering staff inside the ground and outside
Plus extra food and drink on offer
On the face of it, I'd still rather have the extra attendance, as it feels like it would indirectly increase paying attendance over time as well.
But when finances are tight, you need to tighten up on the unknowns
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If you take player welfare as the highest priority, then the game seems doomed.
You have immediate issues of regular injuries, too many games, high attrition etc.
You've got longer term issues from concussions etc.
Most of the solutions I've seen that would potentially grow the game generally disregard player welfare and expect players to play even more often than they currently are.
There's already complaints in various areas that we don't get to see our best players as often as we want
We already have the fast, action packed format of sevens, but that's not bringing the money in
I don't think rugby knows what it wants to be at the moment and I don't know how it becomes a sustainable growth sport.
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Jim Hamilton reckons apart from Wasps and Worcester, two more teams are on the brink. Anyone hazard a guess who they might be?
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To The Falcon: We've been STH for years (12 or more), 4 STHs in fact. and I cannot remember ever being offered or sent free tickets. Some people get all the luck.
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If crowd attendances are any indicator then I'd expect those two teams to be Sale and Newcastle.
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Jim Hamilton reckons apart from Wasps and Worcester, two more teams are on the brink. Anyone hazard a guess who they might be?
LOL said half the clubs were 'up for sale', meaning their current owners had reached the end of their financial largess. Maybe two more are at the point we are with HMRC, and then maybe 3 more on top of that.
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When was the last time a European super League was suggested?
I suspect it'll be raised again
The rich clubs go off and play in Europe
The rest have an even more reduced salary cap to ensure they don't over extend their finances.
But then soon find the revenue opportunities drop even more then they are at the moment.
And before you know it, we're back to amateur rugby
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Where are CVC in all this? Their investment looks like it is beginning to go down the pan.
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As odd as it may seem, if we do get successfully sold, it may be a good thing to be one of the first going down the pan, since I can't imagine there's a large immediate market of people looking to buy rugby clubs, and if Wasps and Wuss are sold, that number will only get significantly smaller for the next poor club.
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I've never objected to paying for my tickets knowing others had got freebies. I prefer the atmosphere with more people, and understand that getting people there for the first time is very valuable.
+2. Mrs FW and I first attendance was on a Freeby. Now both STH's since 2003/4.
Biggest problem I hear from "newbies" attending a game is not understanding the laws or the refs decisions.
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Biggest problem I hear from "newbies" attending a game is not understanding the laws or the refs decisions.
Try explaining to someone who is new to the game why crossing is obstruction, but a rolling maul isn't.
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Interesting that wasps netball have just announced a load of signings. I assume they are owned by wasps holdings as well. So there must be some confidence internally that this will get resolved.
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Interesting that wasps netball have just announced a load of signings. I assume they are owned by wasps holdings as well. So there must be some confidence internally that this will get resolved.
Wheels within wheels are rolling.
Our Chief Operating Officer is interesting.
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Very. When did he get that job? Must have missed that.
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Very. When did he get that job? Must have missed that.
Round about the time he built us a training centre.
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OOOOOoooooo......... PS VV: Noticed that the 'Like' and 'Dislike' have vanished. No complaints at all except that You were 4 'Likes' away from being a Double Centurion. So please accept these 4 'Likes' ( :D :D :D :D) to add to your total. No prize alas. Just many thank yous.
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Dallaglio in the paper this morning saying he expects us to find a solution.
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Dallaglio in the paper this morning saying he expects us to find a solution.
Deja vu
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Dallaglio in the paper this morning saying he expects us to find a solution.
Deja vu
All over again.
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Is today "1 week down, 1 week to go" ?
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Is today "1 week down, 1 week to go" ?
Should be
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Is today "1 week down, 1 week to go" ?
Should be
I thought it was 20 days and that made the Saints game potentially the last?
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Goodey on The Rugby Pod this week spoke briefly about Wasps and seemed to suggest that we hadn't infringed on the payment plan with HMRC, they simply decided to cancel it and call in the £2m effectively issuing a winding up order.
If true, pretty aggressive move from HMRC and wondered what triggered it given it wasn't a missed/late payment?
Secondly, from what Goodey has said - We need to find the £2m at the end of the 10 day period (or 20 days if extended) and that's on top of the Bond Re-financing.
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Completely uncorroborated but my feeling is they did it to give the perception of even handedness in terms of their dealings with Wuss.
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Goodey on The Rugby Pod this week spoke briefly about Wasps and seemed to suggest that we hadn't infringed on the payment plan with HMRC, they simply decided to cancel it and call in the £2m effectively issuing a winding up order.
If true, pretty aggressive move from HMRC and wondered what triggered it given it wasn't a missed/late payment?
Secondly, from what Goodey has said - We need to find the £2m at the end of the 10 day period (or 20 days if extended) and that's on top of the Bond Re-financing.
I work in the social housing sector and if we had agreed a repayment plan with a tenant in rent arrears which they were abiding by, but decided to apply to evict them with no other factors forming part of our case (admittedly not usually the case when I get involved), then the outcome would without doubt be a case of us getting a Possession Order because technically the tenant is in arrears but it would be suspended, with no order for costs and an absolute b******ing from the Judge for taking the action when the tenant is abiding by that agreement.
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Tweet from Bobby, 1635hrs. 30.09/22
It’s my understanding that Wasps players and staff were paid in full and on time today.
That's great news.
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Tweet from Bobby, 1635hrs. 30.09/22
It’s my understanding that Wasps players and staff were paid in full and on time today.
That's great news.
Very good news indeed!
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Tweet from Bobby, 1635hrs. 30.09/22
It’s my understanding that Wasps players and staff were paid in full and on time today.
That's great news.
Very good news indeed!
+1
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2 days to go?
Someone suggested it was possible to get an additional 2 week extension. Anyone know if that's true?
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2 days to go?
Someone suggested it was possible to get an additional 2 week extension. Anyone know if that's true?
The application lasts for 10 court days. Not sure if Bank Holidays still count as a court 'day', I don't think that they do. But, 10 days equates to 2 weeks therefore, on Wednesday. You can apply once to extend that another 10 days (2 weeks).
I would not be surprised to see that happen and for the deal to be last minute, if it happens at all.
I can just as easily see a buyer take CCFC and the Arena, with Wasps as tenants, under notice to find their own ground, which I think might not be a bad thing. I would much rather have a proper rugby stadium better suited to our needs, and not in Coventry, giving Coventry Rugby Club some room to breath. With our training ground in Henley, a ground located near Warwick Parkway would make a lot more sense. If Worcester do disappear from the PRL, their territory would be up for grabs, and Warwick is in that. Warwick/Leamington/Stratford/Shipston/Southam/Evesham/Worcester is a really big rugby schools area.
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2 days to go?
giving Coventry Rugby Club some room to breath.
If you didn’t watch the Cov v Ealing Trailfinders match on Saturday (as I did) you’ll probably not realise how relevant that comment is!
I’m sorry to say that although the Cov boys put in 100% effort throughout, they were totally outclassed again by a slick, tough and well drilled Ealing outfit, who weren’t even going flat out.
Ealing have got a very good side ….. I was astonished when I heard the Butts commentator announce that Jonah Holmes was the scorer of an early try. Not long ago he was scoring tries for fun for Wales. Wow how much are they paying him? A fortune I guess like the others.
Sentimentally, there are a lot of Coventrians who still remember Cov’s golden years and expect them to be in the Premiership but I can’t see that happening unless they find a sugar daddy too.
It’s a pity Cov and Wasps can’t have a closer tie up.
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I must admit I'm not feeling particularly hopeful about the situation any more.
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... there are a lot of Coventrians who still remember Cov’s golden years ...
I remember those days, but then they became owned by a less than stellar individual who made a real mess of things.
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VV,
You seem to be very well-informed. What makes you feel less hopeful now?
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I must admit I'm not feeling particularly hopeful about the situation any more.
The longer it takes, the less convinced I am that talks are really at an advanced stage.
I also wish Lawrence would stop talking to the media about progress. I think he's just getting people's hopes up when there's nothing to get excited about.
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I must admit I'm not feeling particularly hopeful about the situation any more.
The longer it takes, the less convinced I am that talks are really at an advanced stage.
I also wish Lawrence would stop talking to the media about progress. I think he's just getting people's hopes up when there's nothing to get excited about.
Yep.
Agree with this entirely
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I must admit I'm not feeling particularly hopeful about the situation any more.
The longer it takes, the less convinced I am that talks are really at an advanced stage.
Well don’t hold your breath for updates. I’m afraid we will hear nothing while the nitty gritty discussion is happening, we’ll only hear something when it’s done.
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I must admit I'm not feeling particularly hopeful about the situation any more.
The longer it takes, the less convinced I am that talks are really at an advanced stage.
I also wish Lawrence would stop talking to the media about progress. I think he's just getting people's hopes up when there's nothing to get excited about.
Totally
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VV,
You seem to be very well-informed. What makes you feel less hopeful now?
It's nothing I can put my finger on. I know we were very close to sorting the whole mess out some time ago and at the last minute it fell through due to things out of our control. But a lot of events have not worked out the way they looked like they were going to over the last few years, and mainly because I usually am fairly well informed, and right now I know nothing, I can't help but feel the way MarleyWasp does, that the longer it goes without resolution the less likely a positive resolution is.
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Plus 3
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Completely off on a tangent, but you raise a really interesting topic VV. Psychologically we are hard wired to develop negative thought patterns, these cognitive distortions can lead to incorrect assumptions. Neuronal pathways that establish these are exceptionally easy to achieve, a bit like driving down the motorway in the early hours with no other cars around, except the location is normally always a undesirable outcome. One main reason is formulating opinion when not being in possession of all the information. VV you make the point really well, you are reassured when in the loop and a recipient of information, but when you are not - as in now- the your psychological hard wiring kicks in. Mind you there is always the balance to strike with that psychological ‘gut’ feeling, which is the ability to formulate an opinion by subconsciously processing and evaluating all your previous experience and knowledge to garner an answer.
Basically….
You may be right, but you may be wrong. We will only know in the fullness of time as from our perspective both outcomes are possible ;D
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I don’t think the delay in and of itself is a worry. We’ll (quite rightly) only find out at the last minute. My main worry is the scale of the numbers.
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Completely off on a tangent, but you raise a really interesting topic VV. Psychologically we are hard wired to develop negative thought patterns, these cognitive distortions can lead to incorrect assumptions. Neuronal pathways that establish these are exceptionally easy to achieve, a bit like driving down the motorway in the early hours with no other cars around, except the location is normally always a undesirable outcome. One main reason is formulating opinion when not being in possession of all the information. VV you make the point really well, you are reassured when in the loop and a recipient of information, but when you are not - as in now- the your psychological hard wiring kicks in. Mind you there is always the balance to strike with that psychological ‘gut’ feeling, which is the ability to formulate an opinion by subconsciously processing and evaluating all your previous experience and knowledge to garner an answer.
Basically….
You may be right, but you may be wrong. We will only know in the fullness of time as from our perspective both outcomes are possible ;D
I'm always an optimist and the longer we hear nothing then the more optimistic I become. I look at it this way. Dog bites man, not news. Man bites dog, news.
If we are on the verge, then I would expect some leaks of negative information to have slipped out from the camp. All players and staff have just been paid in full. If this wasn't true then we'd have heard on social media by now. That's a plus. I guess I'm just hard wired wrong. I'm a freak then, but I've always known that. ;D ::) ;D ::)
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Completely off on a tangent, but you raise a really interesting topic VV. Psychologically we are hard wired to develop negative thought patterns, these cognitive distortions can lead to incorrect assumptions. Neuronal pathways that establish these are exceptionally easy to achieve, a bit like driving down the motorway in the early hours with no other cars around, except the location is normally always a undesirable outcome. One main reason is formulating opinion when not being in possession of all the information. VV you make the point really well, you are reassured when in the loop and a recipient of information, but when you are not - as in now- the your psychological hard wiring kicks in. Mind you there is always the balance to strike with that psychological ‘gut’ feeling, which is the ability to formulate an opinion by subconsciously processing and evaluating all your previous experience and knowledge to garner an answer.
Basically….
You may be right, but you may be wrong. We will only know in the fullness of time as from our perspective both outcomes are possible ;D
Chris, thanks for your insights on the working of the human mind. It really does make you think about the glass half full/glass half empty scenario.
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It is fascinating Heathen, and we have barely scraped the surface in our understanding of the human brain….although -ridiculously some might say- one of the most striking things to me was how heavy the brain is! With all the complexity of the working of the brain, the fact we have ‘mapped’ it, yet we still have not truly understood it’s true potential. It was when I held one in the anatomy lab at med school it made my arms ache after a few minutes (mad isn’t it). Also it is certain events that fascinate me. An example is a previous patient of mine who had a stroke and now speaks fluent French, yet never learnt it at all throughout her life and did not know a word prior to this event!
Glass half full and half empty is an acquired skill. Some may learn it through their family as they grow (the blank slate theory). Some may be born with it, some develop it through teaching, making that conscious response to see things in a positive light (trait v state). From this you form neuronal connections that allow a more positive response. If it is a learnt behaviour, at first it takes a little longer to reach that outcome. Using the car analogy it is like taking your journey through the A and B roads. It will take longer, will need more active thought to navigate through, towns, junctions, roadworks, traffic lights, but you get to your desired destination. With the following journeys that little easier as you know when to leave, what short cuts to take to make your journey less troublesome.
My glass half full approach came not as a practitioner treating people, but as a patient. I became unwell with generalised anxiety disorder and moderate/severe post traumatic stress disorder by working in emergency medicine. My psychotherapist had to teach me this skill, and it is one I focus really hard on as it can bring true joy to, not just your life, but others around you (even if you get the ‘he’s always so positive’ jibe now and then). I still fall back a little, like before our recent game against Bath, where my worry for the club clouded my excitement of the game. But with positivity comes perspective, and to enjoy what you can. The wife and I will be at the CBS this weekend, and I truly hope our clubs outcome is good, but I will cheer the lads on for the full 80 as we have a league to try to win! :D
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Chris, my wife always says that I go to the 'n' th. degree when thinking about things - too much detail!! I put that down to the fact that I trained and worked an an analytical chemist/scientist for too many years.
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Chris - thanks for that post - having a bit of a mo' this morning (another time) I'm back on that A road.
Mike
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Heaths I’m not surprised with the depth of your analysis given your professional background! I imagine you are able to arrange a multitude of possible outcomes and then select in order from most likely to least likely as well…..I would be fascinated to hear what you think is most likely for our club!
Mike, we all naturally hit that motorway! The fact you have identified it and swung to the off ramp to the A roads shows emotional intelligence, as you can identify what you are doing and change course. Not everyone does that and is a real positive and skill to have! :D
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Wow, this has gone off on a tangent (an interesting one I should add!)
I am instinctively inclined to conclude that the longer the silence goes on, the closer we are to oblivion. However, rationally, I know that the silence is inevitable and will continue right up to the point that a deal is done, so no news is.... No news. Nothing more, nothing less. Its just us filling in the blanks for ourselves.
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Quote Wombles :
An example is a previous patient of mine who had a stroke and now speaks fluent French, yet never learnt it at all throughout her life and did not know a word prior to this event!
Now that is interesting, I often tour France on my bike and every time I wish I could speak French. It seems the older one gets the harder it is to learn a new language.
Any guesses on how the Lady in question suddenly developed this new skill?
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Problem is Cody we just do not know. There are lots of reported cases, a english speaking person speaking Welsh post stroke, an American speaking Spanish transiently post a head injury. Some theories suggest it is a form of aphasia due to neurological damage where you cannot speak the language you know. However it does not account for how she speaks a language she never previously learnt. Some people theorise that it incorporates a well known condition called foreign accent syndrome, a well known case is a Norwegian person from world war 2 developing a German accent after a shrapnel injury. However some theorise that as the formation of speech is a precise co-ordination of multiple body parts that any change to this will change accent, tone, pace and inflection which could ‘mimic’ another accent purely by happenstance.
Some say the second language simply sounds fluent to a non speaker of that language but is simply the accent and heavily error ridden when translated. However this does not account for the English speaker who developed Welsh (which his Welsh speaking wife translated accurately). And my previous patient who spoke fluent French as it was formally assessed and proved as such.
There is a condition called Hyperthymesia where you can remember consciously every detail of your entire life, however some areas of psychological dispute this. The ‘we only use 10% of our 100 billion neurones at any time’ has pretty much been disproved now. But if the brain can ‘file and store’ subconsciously every experience, and all it needs is the correct ‘key’ to access it and return it to the conscious - think of a smell reminding you of something long forgotten such as a autumn morning fresh air catapulting you back to your walk to first school decades previously. Or freshly baked bread reminding you of a specific breakfast with your family 50 years ago - then the husband with a Welsh speaking wife may of subconsciously learnt Welsh and the rewiring from the stroke (aphasia) worked as the ‘key’ to access all the Welsh words and language he never knew he could speak. Yet this does not explain my patient who’s family asserted that she never had any French lessons at school, never watched a French dubbed film and never left the UK during her life. As much as we like to state facts and generate theories it is cases such as hers that show how little we really know and how much we have yet to learn.
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I saw this on a Wasps Facebook group this morning. I take anything on facebook with a large pinch of salt, but does this mean anything good or bad for those that understand these things?
It’s an image of Wasps Community foundation looking like it was being reopened at Company house:
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Doesn't something have to be said tomorrow
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Yes - although we may find out here first: https://caseboard.io/cases/ad3fb0e6-21c4-40d8-8f48-4a6ae528cd1e
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Being a cynic I always thought that these cases didn't actually speak the language, because how could they manage to if they've not learned the grammar etc nor knew the language. What I can believe is that they spoke with a foreign accent. And got stuck with it.
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Apparently a second notice has been issued for a second two week period. Apparently new investors have come forward with advanced stage negotiations.
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Wasps provide update as 'potential' new investors emerge
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-provide-update-talks-potential-25175895
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Interesting. They would have had to prove the new investors etc were credible to get the extension granted.
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Wouldn't there have had to have been credible investors 10 days ago? If so I wonder where they went as it sounds like these are new?
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In the Telegraph, it was the likely outcome. Something must be happening or surely we wouldn't be allowed another 10 days, don't you have to proof it.
Financially stricken Wasps have just 10 days to stave off administration
The club's financial fragility was first highlighted when they applied to appoint administrators last month
Wasps have 10 days to secure vital investment or face entering administration after the club filed a second notice of intention to appoint administrators.
With time running out for the financially stricken Premiership club to secure further investment, a statement from Wasps Holdings Limited on Tuesday confirmed that discussions around potential investors and funders are "now at an advanced stage" but that the step of a second notice was taken to buy time and "allow negotiations on the club's long-term future to continue".
On Sep 21, Wasps sent shockwaves through English rugby as they filed their first notice to appoint an administrator after being threatened by HMRC with a winding-up petition over a £2 million repayment, with the West Midlands club also owing £35m to bondholders after they invested to help purchase the Coventry Building Society Arena seven years ago.
Wasps had 10 days from the first notice being filed to find investment - or risk being sued by creditors - but that 10-day window will now reset from Wednesday after the filing of their second notice.
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It will be the hope that kills me. If not that, it'll be the heartbreak if this all goes wrong next week.
In my optimistic outlook, it does feel like this will have a positive outcome. Yes, the finances aren't great, but here's what's different to the Worcester situation:
- The relationship between owners/stakeholders and the players and staff appear to be very good
- Wages were paid on time and in full (I'd imagine if things were as bad as some people make out, this would be one of the first things to have gone wrong)
- If we are to believe the public statements, there has been interest in the club. Otherwise, we probably would've been in the brown stinky stuff long before now
- We have been able to fulfil our fixtures (although I'm sure our rest week timing will have helped)
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What worries me is that whilst yes, it seems positive that discussions are at an "advanced stage", this is the exact phrase was used to describe negotiations with a lender on 1st September (https://www.wasps.co.uk/media/9567/wasps-rns-010922-final-63.pdf).
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What worries me is that whilst yes, it seems positive that discussions are at an "advanced stage", this is the exact phrase was used to describe negotiations with a lender on 1st September (https://www.wasps.co.uk/media/9567/wasps-rns-010922-final-63.pdf).
+1 - the never ending "advanced stage".
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I'm pretty sure you need to show evidence that you are in discussions with someone to get the additional 10 days
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I'm pretty sure you need to show evidence that you are in discussions with someone to get the additional 10 days
Yes to get the actual approval to extend. Not sure it has actually been granted.
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I'm pretty sure you need to show evidence that you are in discussions with someone to get the additional 10 days
We will know tomorrow then I should imagine
Yes to get the actual approval to extend. Not sure it has actually been granted.
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If the "advanced stage" discussions involved a loan, I can imagine neither lender not borrower were keen to finalise the deal in the last 10 days given the huge market uncertainty.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63135751
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Worcester liquidation hearing taking place at the High Court today:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/04/wasps-granted-more-time-to-fix-financial-mess-while-worcester-brace-for-worst
Depending on the findings of the court (and I'm no expert here), then Worcester can expect to be wound up, relegated and the players contracts torn up. Seeing on social media that PRL may remove the "P share" from Worcester too, effectively stripping them of top club status.
Obviously different circumstances, but the PRL attitude seems to strike a different tone to when a certain other club was relegated due to irregularities.
We, of course, have a vested interest in seeing how this one goes.
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Worcester liquidation hearing taking place at the High Court today:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/04/wasps-granted-more-time-to-fix-financial-mess-while-worcester-brace-for-worst
Depending on the findings of the court (and I'm no expert here), then Worcester can expect to be wound up, relegated and the players contracts torn up. Seeing on social media that PRL may remove the "P share" from Worcester too, effectively stripping them of top club status.
Obviously different circumstances, but the PRL attitude seems to strike a different tone to when a certain other club was relegated due to irregularities.
We, of course, have a vested interest in seeing how this one goes.
With the case before the High Court, it is not a difficult case to hear. The judge will ask the first question:
1. Has this particular debt been paid in full?
If the answer is 'No' then the company will be placed in to Compulsory Liquidation, and the case handed to the Official Receiver. The OR will then offer the work of winding up the company's affairs to an Insolvency Practitioner, usually from the OR's rota. In exceptional cases, where there is a public interest involved (and I would argue in this case there is), the Official Receiver's staff themselves will handle it all. This happens often where there is clear evidence of malpractice by the directors and a prosecution and other court actions (such as preferential transfer of assets and payments are involved), where the court can be asked to reverse said transactions.
BUT, bear in mind that the company in the court case on Wednesday is unlikely to be the one holding the assets (like the player contracts).
2. Even if the debt HAS been paid, the judge will ask if other debtors are still owed money (they are), and will still place the company in to Compulsory Liquidation.
Only if all debtors appear to have been paid would the judge dismiss the petition. I suppose the judge could postpone/delay the decision, but not very likely.
As a director of a company, you really do NOT want to be in this position. It is the end of the road, and life is going to start to get very painful. You really should have sorted it out long before this point, even if it was to place the company in to Voluntary Liquidation. Failure to do that is in itself punishable. Typically, a business should have gone in to administration about 18-24 months before a Compulsory Winding Up order is made, gone in to Voluntary Liquidation about 12 months prior. At least, when I have looked back at the decline of businesses that came my wife's way, that was what you saw over and again.
Compare that to Wasps, and Wasps have already gone past that 18-24 month point, and are now at the point where Voluntary Liquidation is almost the right option. Should they fail to secure re-financing, an Administration process will be of little use at this point. That should have happened when it became probable that the bonds could not be redeemed (and ignoring any last minute financing at that point, as hope does not come in to it).
I would guess a few more clubs are close to the point where they should be entering administration.
The trouble is, there is that Damoclean sword that the PRL rules mean that to do so they face relegation. But those are just rules, whereas the duty of a director are clear under the law.
Hanged if they do, hanged if they don't.
I am totally puzzled as to what all this delay at Wasps is.
Finance is likely from two possible sources:
1. A financial Institution
Any institution that recommends this deal to its investors as being a good one would be lying, and thus would not do it. There is no way to gloss over this. If someone sees this as an investment, they will lose at least £50m up front, and thereafter millions every year. I could be wrong, but that would be an insane investment, no matter how it is dressed up. My worry is that this is what Wasps are proposing. I seriously doubt they can pull off such a con.
2. An uber rich buyer.
A rich buyer, one who makes as much money in a day that Wasps need now and in the future, is the only viable solution. It works for a couple of other clubs and is the only long term model for Rugby to survive. It is what keeps other big money sports going, like football in Europe, and many sports in the USA. What would be the delay here? The reluctance of current stakeholders to hand over the reins of ALL the constituent parts of the business, and the need to obtain agreement from the stadium owner (the Council) and CCFC (the tenant). It might be that the potential owner wants to actually own the stadium, not just lease it. That all takes time. Time that Wasps do not have.
They now have 10 working days to do the deal. If it is option #2, any work done for one buyer can transfer to another buyer for due diligence and willingness to transfer/sell assets purposes. The contract would be the same, just change the names.
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A minor quibble. Whoever I’ve been paid to do due diligence, admittedly on telecoms companies, the work we did was for the person buying or making financial investments either as a shareholder of loans as a banker. If our client pulled out the information was not shared with any other investor.
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Yeah but if we end up in a situation where the club no longer owns the stadium or training ground because they've been sold to help us pay off the debt, we're buggered again.
Sadly I think we're fucked.
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Seeing on social media that PRL may remove the "P share" from Worcester too, effectively stripping them of top club status.
That's probably their only real asset they have left. Not sure who exactly owns the stadium but who wold want to buy that without a rugby club to play in it? Unless they want the land for development...
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The Adminsitrator has said they have control of the stadium, so whoever buys Worcester will also be buying the stadium. The company facing liquidation today is the one that owns the players contracts.
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Yeah but if we end up in a situation where the club no longer owns the stadium or training ground because they've been sold to help us pay off the debt, we're buggered again.
Sadly I think we're fucked.
The training ground is owned by Christopher Holland, one of our directors.
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That's even worse
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A minor quibble. Whoever I’ve been paid to do due diligence, admittedly on telecoms companies, the work we did was for the person buying or making financial investments either as a shareholder of loans as a banker. If our client pulled out the information was not shared with any other investor.
Agreed. That being said, if any of the potential buyers (we are led to believe more than one investor has expressed interest) have not completed due diligence by this stage, it is too late for them to do that.
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The company facing liquidation today is the one that owns the players contracts.
Is it known if they own the P share as well?
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
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from the BBC:
Worcester Warriors players and staff face having their contracts terminated, following part of the club being wound up in the High Court.
HMRC had been pursuing Worcester, who are suspended from all competitions, since August for unpaid taxes.
Judge Nicholas Briggs instructed that WRFC Players Ltd, through which players and staff are paid - is wound up.
A winding-up petition against WRFC Trading Limited - which remains in administration - has been suspended.
All debts at WRFC Players Ltd, which had no representation in court, remain outstanding.
The ground and the club are under WRFC Trading Ltd, which went into administration last Monday.
But much of the land around the ground now belongs to other companies owned by co-owners Jason Whittingham and Colin Goldring.
Begbies Traynor, the administrators appointed to deal with the WRFC Trading Ltd wing of the club, will continue to deal with that part of the process.
But the contracts of all players, backroom staff, administrative staff, and the women's squad, who play under the University of Worcester Warriors banner, are all effectively terminated.
The four players who went out on loan to Bath on Monday are now free agents so can sign for any club.
Some staff are still owed 35% of their August wages, while nobody was paid for September.
It is understood Warriors could now have their suspension from the Premiership and other competitions extended until the end of season and suffer relegation to the Championship.
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Why would any of them sign for a club that might also imminently fold?
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Why would any of them sign for a club that might also imminently fold?
Depends in what they can be told.
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Why would any of them sign for a club that might also imminently fold?
I think that's the point. If they do sign it could be a sign that we aren't about to fold.
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Why would any of them sign for a club that might also imminently fold?
I think that's the point. If they do sign it could be a sign that we aren't about to fold.
Exactly my point. They won’t want to sign for a club on the brink. The club might not be in a position to sign because of imminent admiration. Any signing would point to a secure future.
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Or maybe we don't want any of them.
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Or maybe we don't want any of them.
I think Duhan van der Merwe might add something...
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Or maybe we don't want any of them.
Hence the word ‘might’. I think if we sign some it is a very good sign not signing any might not mean anything.
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Or maybe we don't want any of them.
I think Duhan van der Merwe might add something...
Yes please
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I think with VDM likely heading to France and Hill, Lawrence and Morozov off to Bath there are not many that I think would improve us. Smith has talent at 10 but is more of what we’ve got. Kvesic maybe but not a big step up. Langdon is a good hooker but we don’t need one. I suspect, for one reason or another none will land at Wasps. Terrible news for them and a perfect storm in terms of the cap being lowered.
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Smith has talent at 10 but is more of what we’ve got.
99% sure he's off to Saints, lined up to replace Biggar.
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Smith has talent at 10 but is more of what we’ve got.
99% sure he's off to Saints, lined up to replace Biggar.
Yes read that too. Signed a pre-contract
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If the contracts are now void for the Worcester players, who are Bath loaning the players from now. Does it stop being a loan, can bath still play them
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If the contracts are now void for the Worcester players, who are Bath loaning the players from now. Does it stop being a loan, can bath still play them
Oooh, now THAT is a good question!
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If the contracts are now void for the Worcester players, who are Bath loaning the players from now. Does it stop being a loan, can bath still play them
I think the answer is yes they can play them. They will now be on short term injury contract - similar to Wade at Racing.
The question is then what happens to them when the Bath players come back later in Oct and Nov.
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They will now be on short term injury contract
I know there is the "Medical Joker" policy in the Top 14, but I wasn't aware of anything similar in the prem. I thought any injury cover had to be covered under your existing cap. Does anyone know what the actual rules are here?
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They will now be on short term injury contract
I know there is the "Medical Joker" policy in the Top 14, but I wasn't aware of anything similar in the prem. I thought any injury cover had to be covered under your existing cap. Does anyone know what the actual rules are here?
[/quot
It used to be that you had a certain amount for injury jokers, Wasps have used them previously. Those with better memories than I will remember which players perhaps. I assume the rule hasn't changed, though the amount may have done.
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They will now be on short term injury contract
I know there is the "Medical Joker" policy in the Top 14, but I wasn't aware of anything similar in the prem. I thought any injury cover had to be covered under your existing cap. Does anyone know what the actual rules are here?
[/quot
It used to be that you had a certain amount for injury jokers, Wasps have used them previously. Those with better memories than I will remember which players perhaps. I assume the rule hasn't changed, though the amount may have done.
I think Van Vuren was one last season ( now full contract)
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So we have been given the 10 extra days - is this correct?
If so surely evidence must have been provided to suggest we are in serious negotiation with investors and funders and by the sounds of it more than one party.
I appreciate none of this is good news but why would we be allowed another 10 days if the court, RFU and PRL are not satisfied with what has been discussed with said investors and funders.
For me we must have some serious and genuine investors and funders that could see our long term future, the problem is do we have enough time to sort it. Is the 10 days the absolute maximum we are allowed?
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Blackett confirming in the Coventry Telegraph tonight:
1) We’re not in a position to offer contracts to Wuss players.
2) We can’t offer contract extensions at the moment
3) Another meeting was held today to explain the new NOI. Vaughan and Holland explaining. Blackett didn’t give details but said it was “honest and positive”.
4) He expects something to happen soon rather than in a long time off at which point his priority will be “player retention”.
I guess point 4 is the most positive!
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So we have been given the 10 extra days - is this correct?
Yes, but do not presume too much in to the justification placed before the judge. All it had to be was sufficient for that purpose.
Is the 10 days the absolute maximum we are allowed?
Yes. Nuts on the chopping block time.
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Blackett confirming in the Coventry Telegraph tonight:
1) We’re not in a position to offer contracts to Wuss players.
2) We can’t offer contract extensions at the moment
3) Another meeting was held today to explain the new NOI. Vaughan and Holland explaining. Blackett didn’t give details but said it was “honest and positive”.
4) He expects something to happen soon rather than in a long time off at which point his priority will be “player retention”.
I guess point 4 is the most positive!
That's bad news about contract negotiations. If you were a player, would you hold on in the hope it gets resolved? Or would you take the security of a signed deal elsewhere? I know what I'd do.
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Blackett confirming in the Coventry Telegraph tonight:
1) We’re not in a position to offer contracts to Wuss players.
2) We can’t offer contract extensions at the moment
3) Another meeting was held today to explain the new NOI. Vaughan and Holland explaining. Blackett didn’t give details but said it was “honest and positive”.
4) He expects something to happen soon rather than in a long time off at which point his priority will be “player retention”.
I guess point 4 is the most positive!
That's bad news about contract negotiations. If you were a player, would you hold on in the hope it gets resolved? Or would you take the security of a signed deal elsewhere? I know what I'd do.
In the normal scheme of things, Wasps would have already made contract extension offers by this point in the season, and also told those who would not receive such offers that they were on their way out. Those players will likely have been told that. The players Wasps want to keep, will have been told, we would like to keep you, but can't offer anything just yet. And, as you say, their agents will be working on Plan B. Some players will have said that they do not want to sign an extension/new contract anyway. To retire or move on. But, unlike other clubs, Wasps really can't be out there to fill the gaps they will now have. As a result, the squad is most likely to be weaker than this year. If we get to next year that is.
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Blackett confirming in the Coventry Telegraph tonight:
1) We’re not in a position to offer contracts to Wuss players.
2) We can’t offer contract extensions at the moment
3) Another meeting was held today to explain the new NOI. Vaughan and Holland explaining. Blackett didn’t give details but said it was “honest and positive”.
4) He expects something to happen soon rather than in a long time off at which point his priority will be “player retention”.
I guess point 4 is the most positive!
That's bad news about contract negotiations. If you were a player, would you hold on in the hope it gets resolved? Or would you take the security of a signed deal elsewhere? I know what I'd do.
A few things to factor in. They will know a lot more than us. It’s “fairly” early in the renegotiation stakes and it can’t be dragged out much more than 10 more days. With the lower cap offers might not be prolific (depends who you are). If it were me I’d probably hold on for 10 days and see what happens.
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Blackett confirming in the Coventry Telegraph tonight:
1) We’re not in a position to offer contracts to Wuss players.
2) We can’t offer contract extensions at the moment
3) Another meeting was held today to explain the new NOI. Vaughan and Holland explaining. Blackett didn’t give details but said it was “honest and positive”.
4) He expects something to happen soon rather than in a long time off at which point his priority will be “player retention”.
I guess point 4 is the most positive!
That's bad news about contract negotiations. If you were a player, would you hold on in the hope it gets resolved? Or would you take the security of a signed deal elsewhere? I know what I'd do.
A few things to factor in. They will know a lot more than us. It’s “fairly” early in the renegotiation stakes and it can’t be dragged out much more than 10 more days. With the lower cap offers might not be prolific (depends who you are). If it were me I’d probably hold on for 10 days and see what happens.
Shugs - you should be immune to negativety from the "Other Place"
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Blackett confirming in the Coventry Telegraph tonight:
1) We’re not in a position to offer contracts to Wuss players.
2) We can’t offer contract extensions at the moment
3) Another meeting was held today to explain the new NOI. Vaughan and Holland explaining. Blackett didn’t give details but said it was “honest and positive”.
4) He expects something to happen soon rather than in a long time off at which point his priority will be “player retention”.
I guess point 4 is the most positive!
That's bad news about contract negotiations. If you were a player, would you hold on in the hope it gets resolved? Or would you take the security of a signed deal elsewhere? I know what I'd do.
A few things to factor in. They will know a lot more than us. It’s “fairly” early in the renegotiation stakes and it can’t be dragged out much more than 10 more days. With the lower cap offers might not be prolific (depends who you are). If it were me I’d probably hold on for 10 days and see what happens.
I agree 10 days waiting isn't too long. I can't see another club saying sign now or else.
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:)Neils - I think I am. I’d that here or “there”?
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Or maybe we don't want any of them.
I think Duhan van der Merwe might add something...
Yes please
Gone back to Edinburgh
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Or maybe we don't want any of them.
I think Duhan van der Merwe might add something...
Yes please
Gone back to Edinburgh
Excellent news ( my team)
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Or maybe we don't want any of them.
I think Duhan van der Merwe might add something...
Yes please
Gone back to Edinburgh
Excellent news ( my team)
He has got to get visa clearance though before his return "home"!!
https://edinburghrugby.org/the-clubhouse/duhans-coming-home/
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A measure of the progress of our negotiations could be seen in whether we pick up any Worcester players who are now free agents. In any other circumstances we would be in prime position to sign them. Geography, need, room in the cap. The only thing that would stop us is if we have an uncertain future. If we sign any of them I would take it as a very good sign. Not signing them might be a worrying sign.
Or maybe we don't want any of them.
I think Duhan van der Merwe might add something...
Yes please
Gone back to Edinburgh
Excellent news ( my team)
He has got to get visa clearance though before his return "home"!!
https://edinburghrugby.org/the-clubhouse/duhans-coming-home/
Weird as a capped Scotland player.
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Just so I can re-set my nervous countdown, is the new deadline now Saturday 15th October?
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Pretty sure it will be Wednesday 19th
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Pretty sure it will be Wednesday 19th
This, as the 10 days are weekdays.
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Wasps seem to be upping their social media & community efforts in the last few weeks.
Don't know if that is a sign of confidence in a deal to be concluded imminently or a last desperate bid to show what a community based club Wasps are & all efforts to save if should be made.
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Wasps seem to be upping their social media & community efforts in the last few weeks.
Don't know if that is a sign of confidence in a deal to be concluded imminently or a last desperate bid to show what a community based club Wasps are & all efforts to save if should be made.
Think it’s been said that social has been better. Definitely the last week has had loads of players tweeting about coming to Sundays game as well as advertising it for emergency services personnel.
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Wasps seem to be upping their social media & community efforts in the last few weeks.
Don't know if that is a sign of confidence in a deal to be concluded imminently or a last desperate bid to show what a community based club Wasps are & all efforts to save if should be made.
Think it’s been said that social has been better. Definitely the last week has had loads of players tweeting about coming to Sundays game as well as advertising it for emergency services personnel.
Maybe to say goodbye!
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Wasps seem to be upping their social media & community efforts in the last few weeks.
Don't know if that is a sign of confidence in a deal to be concluded imminently or a last desperate bid to show what a community based club Wasps are & all efforts to save if should be made.
Gut instinct is that it's the latter on the back of Worcester.
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I don't know if things like this mean very much but Wasps have announced yesterday,
2022/23 Wasps Men Player Sponsors.
https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/202223-wasps-men-player-sponsors/ (https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/202223-wasps-men-player-sponsors/)
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I don't know if things like this mean very much but Wasps have announced yesterday,
2022/23 Wasps Men Player Sponsors.
https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/202223-wasps-men-player-sponsors/ (https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/202223-wasps-men-player-sponsors/)
Yes saw that one. Not a thing they have done before as far as I can recall.
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Among them, "Genesis Wealth Creation".
Don't suppose they could create about £50m of wealth any time soon, could they?
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..... and they spelt my surname wrong.
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..... and they spelt my surname wrong.
It’s wasps - what else do expect🤔🤔🤔
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True. I'd be a bit surprised if they hadn't really.
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I wondered if that was you, Wonky.
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Yup. The lad's doing well isn't he.
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News story just released by sky https://news.sky.com/story/former-wasps-chief-spearheads-bid-for-stricken-premiership-rugby-club-12716501 stating David Armstrong is leading a bid. However it looks like it will only go ahead once we have gone into administration and they are already petitioning the RFU to try and stop relegation in that scenario
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News story just released by sky https://news.sky.com/story/former-wasps-chief-spearheads-bid-for-stricken-premiership-rugby-club-12716501 stating David Armstrong is leading a bid. However it looks like it will only go ahead once we have gone into administration and they are already petitioning the RFU to try and stop relegation in that scenario
We’ve discussed the option of a pre-pack before and with any deal going to the wire it looks more likely.
Lol says a few options on the table, one is selling the stadium.
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Well, that won't happen, so down the pan it will go.
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Takeover bid report emerges led by former chief executive
Report in the Coventry Telegraph this afternoon.
From Bobby Bridge.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-takeover-bid-report-emerges-25217428 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-takeover-bid-report-emerges-25217428)
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Well, that won't happen, so down the pan it will go.
+1 I am afraid
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Let's face it no one is buying the rugby club they want the real estate. Let it all go into administration and buy debt free. No brained.
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No future whatsover.
We fuck up on the pitch and are fucked off of it.
Curtains coming down IMHO.
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I hope we survive, but we cannot have our cake and eat it. We may have a huge history but we are no bigger than Worcester or any other club, and if we enter administration I would expect that we are treated as Worcester were.
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I agree
My only hope is that the authorities decide that things are easier with a 12 team league and give us a chance.
But even then, I'd expect a 35 point deduction which would see us relegated at the end of the season ... At least we'd get to play all this year which has got to be beneficial
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Can more than one club be relegated from the Prem? Either that expands the Championship or they end up relegating more, which I can’t see happening.
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If relegated, that may scupper any rescue deal.
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Sorry I think we are toast. Much as I might like it we cannot be treated differently from Worcester.
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Disagree. I actively think we should be treated differently to Worcester. There will be plain evidence that we operate in several different sectors to them. They weren’t unable to do half the things we couldn’t. I’m not interested in being noble and taking the fall because Worcester have. The fact is, as clubs, we’re in hugely different scenarios and that should be recognised.
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I don’t think we should be treated differently to Worcester we should be treated as per rules. Rules which state don’t get relegated if issues linked to COVID. Worcester were run by cowboys, wasps I don’t think is the same. COVID clearly derailed the situation.
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Agreed Covguy. Is it possible to have a little positivity, a scrap of hope here gentlemen?? Those trying to prevent a disaster for Wasps etc damned if they do and damned if they don't. At least they are trying.
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Agree Wonky - some of the language and insinuation around today is a bit defeatist. Linked to the manner of the defeat I think/hope. We’re far from done and it’s entirely possible we have a way forward.
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If we go into admin, Coventry Council are going to take the stadium back. They've got an interested buyer (two technically if Wasps are rescued) and the rights to sell the lease again. Why would they have any interest in leaving it with Wasps?
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Who is the non wasps interested party?
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Just had it pointed out to me that if Cov Council take the stadium back, there's a rugby stadium that may well have just opened up and will be for sale down the road...
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You’ll have to join the dots for me Raggs.
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Understand it’s Wuss but don’t see a possibility of buying it solvent?
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According to Sky Sports one bid is headed by David Armstrong. I've met him several times at Adams Park and again in Toulon and La Rochelle. He always came across as a genuine person and I have no doubt that he could a beneficial owner.
wasps-former-chief-david-armstrong-spearheads-bid-for-stricken-premiership-rugby-club (https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12551/12716580/wasps-former-chief-david-armstrong-spearheads-bid-for-stricken-premiership-rugby-club)
david-armstrong-appointed-as-new-chair-of-the-england-netball-board/ (https://www.englandnetball.co.uk/david-armstrong-appointed-as-new-chair-of-the-england-netball-board/)
Whether we get relegated or docked 35 points is a different question but our case is different to Worcester in that we have continued to meet our fixture commitments and have, thus far, paid our players and staff. Time will tell....
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Can someone remind me of the details behind his departure from Wasps?
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I don’t think we should be treated differently to Worcester we should be treated as per rules. Rules which state don’t get relegated if issues linked to COVID. Worcester were run by cowboys, wasps I don’t think is the same. COVID clearly derailed the situation.
Hang on, can someone clear up the rules? I thought it was relegation to the deepest, darkest depths of the leagues unless you can prove a no-fault (or whatever the term is) administration. But that was changed recently to a 35 point in season reduction?
Secondly, are there legal/financial benefits of a team going into Administration prior to a deal being closed? - Jim O'Toole wanted Warriors to get into Admin to get the deal done and I thought i'd read somewhere that one of the bidders/interested parties for us had asked for the same?
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On the first point a 35 point deduction is available if we can prove admin was, in effect, not a consequence of simple poor management. In the second buying in admin may mean you don’t have to “acquire” as much of the debt and also that you may want to pick bits of the business but not others.
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On the first point a 35 point deduction is available if we can prove admin was, in effect, not a consequence of simple poor management. In the second buying in admin may mean you don’t have to “acquire” as much of the debt and also that you may want to pick bits of the business but not others.
But the downside to buying it from an administrator is that all prior contracts are likely to have a termination clause, meaning a lot of legal work to start new contracts. They often cannot be rolled over. That would take weeks, if not months.
The other issue is that the assets (the arena lease, the training site, the player contracts) may be held in different places, meaning you might be able to buy the name, but not the pitch, not the training ground, nor the players.
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I don’t think we should be treated differently to Worcester we should be treated as per rules. Rules which state don’t get relegated if issues linked to COVID. Worcester were run by cowboys, wasps I don’t think is the same. COVID clearly derailed the situation.
Hang on, can someone clear up the rules? I thought it was relegation to the deepest, darkest depths of the leagues unless you can prove a no-fault (or whatever the term is) administration. But that was changed recently to a 35 point in season reduction?
Secondly, are there legal/financial benefits of a team going into Administration prior to a deal being closed? - Jim O'Toole wanted Warriors to get into Admin to get the deal done and I thought i'd read somewhere that one of the bidders/interested parties for us had asked for the same?
My understanding is that penalties can be avoided if club can demonstrate administration is directly linked to the pandemic.
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If we go into admin, Coventry Council are going to take the stadium back. They've got an interested buyer (two technically if Wasps are rescued) and the rights to sell the lease again. Why would they have any interest in leaving it with Wasps?
As a council, their duty is towards VFM. And so unless they could demonstrate that their action was reasonable they might be at risk of challenge. Their position is stronger than it was before 2010, as the local govt governance body was abolished. This means coordinated action is less likely, but could still fall foul of the Dept response for LG.
But in short, Members at the Council have a duty towards the best financial outcomes. Leaving a lease with Wasps would need to demonstrated as compatible with duties.
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Coventry City Council have had an excellent relationship with Wasps ever since they first showed interest in the CBS and will be doing what they can to support the club during this difficult period.
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My understanding is that penalties can be avoided if club can demonstrate administration is directly linked to the pandemic.
Back in October '21 I went to the 'Fan Forum' at the Training Centre and Vaughan mentioned in the Q&A that the business was on to break even the year COVID hit. There's no detail around it nor was he asked to substantiate on it during the evening.
There was (another) hefty loss that year in the accounts.
It would be interesting to know whether by breakeven he meant not making a loss that year, or that part way through the year they were on track to be cashflow neutral/positive to have stemmed the losses and go onto the next year in a good place.
If the latter, then presumably it's demonstratable the impact that COVID had - especially when you consider a home SF for the Prem and Final at HQ (Not sure how income works for Clubs on that - do they get a top-up payment from ticket sales/tv coverage?).
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My understanding is that penalties can be avoided if club can demonstrate administration is directly linked to the pandemic.
Back in October '21 I went to the 'Fan Forum' at the Training Centre and Vaughan mentioned in the Q&A that the business was on to break even the year COVID hit. There's no detail around it nor was he asked to substantiate on it during the evening.
There was (another) hefty loss that year in the accounts.
It would be interesting to know whether by breakeven he meant not making a loss that year, or that part way through the year they were on track to be cashflow neutral/positive to have stemmed the losses and go onto the next year in a good place.
If the latter, then presumably it's demonstratable the impact that COVID had - especially when you consider a home SF for the Prem and Final at HQ (Not sure how income works for Clubs on that - do they get a top-up payment from ticket sales/tv coverage?).
It was on 2 November.
He also said to a straight question that the bonds were "sorted" as their financial advisor had placed an expert into the Arena Management to assist with putting everything in place. Maybe it was at the time or maybe an "untruth".
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I wish LoL had kept his mouth shut - just got an email telling me to read all about Wasps "being too big" to relegate! Plus the vitriol on what goes under the name of social media.
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Maybe Lol is desperately trying to convince himself of an improvement in our situation. I think we are different from Wuss but not because of history or size or such. Wuss were/are the victims of (in imho) a vicious calculated mugging by their owners, and thank god our owner is not like that. We were/are the victims of something quite beyond our control, ie a pandemic. Just my view.
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At the back of my mind, I am not sure that our business plan from the outset, was particulary well thought out (especially the what/if scenarios about the bond repayment) and robust enough.
I will be very interested to see how the "new owners" will repay the overdue bond. As I imagine, will the bondholders, particulary those who are long term Wasps fans.
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Agree about Dallaglio’s comments. I’m hoping the dialogue the club must be having with PRL carries more weight in their minds than his well intentioned but incorrectly executed words. I do believe we and Worcester are different cases and should be treated as such but not in the ways lol suggested.
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It was on 2 November.
He also said to a straight question that the bonds were "sorted" as their financial advisor had placed an expert into the Arena Management to assist with putting everything in place. Maybe it was at the time or maybe an "untruth".
Must have been a different one on the 2nd Nov, as I was definitely there in late October: http://onceawasp.com/forums/index.php/topic,4284.msg73415.html#msg73415
When asked about finances 5 days prior to the 2nd November the answer wasn't that the Bonds were sorted, nor that an expert had been placed into the Arena Management.
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It was on 2 November.
He also said to a straight question that the bonds were "sorted" as their financial advisor had placed an expert into the Arena Management to assist with putting everything in place. Maybe it was at the time or maybe an "untruth".
Must have been a different one on the 2nd Nov, as I was definitely there in late October: http://onceawasp.com/forums/index.php/topic,4284.msg73415.html#msg73415
When asked about finances 5 days prior to the 2nd November the answer wasn't that the Bonds were sorted, nor that an expert had been placed into the Arena Management.
Sorry my bad it was the 27th Oct. The question was by somebody alongside me and that was the answer given by Vaughan. He was asked about it again during the free-for-all questions afterwards.
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If the 2nd extension was on the 3rd/4th, does that mean Wasps have until the 18th?
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If the 2nd extension was on the 3rd/4th, does that mean Wasps have until the 18th?
Week on Wednesday is said to be the drop dead date. Although the application seems to have been made late Tuesday.
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Yes, filed on Tuesday 4th October, so the 17th or 18th would be the deadline. The previous one was filed on a Wednesday, so it may be that the day it is filed is day 1.
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Yes, filed on Tuesday 4th October, so the 17th or 18th would be the deadline. The previous one was filed on a Wednesday, so it may be that the day it is filed is day 1.
So that'd be after the chiefs game. Let's hope there's been an announcement by then, otherwise that'll be huge pressure on the players.
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It’s a shame at times that this forum is so open, as it means being careful in sharing certain information.
I suspect there’s a few on this board who are well connected, but unable to share certain bits of information they hear via reputable sources because of visibility of all posts.
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It’s a shame at times that this forum is so open, as it means being careful in sharing certain information.
I suspect there’s a few on this board who are well connected, but unable to share certain bits of information they hear via reputable sources because of visibility of all posts.
Share anything secret with me and you might as well print it on the front page of The Sun.
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I suspect there’s a few on this board who are well connected, but unable to share certain bits of information they hear via reputable sources because of visibility of all posts.
I think you're right, but some of those assurances from "extremely trust worthy sources" that have been shared have turned out not to be accurate, or at least been wildly premature in their belief.
The only way to keep a secret is not to tell anyone.
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It’s a shame at times that this forum is so open, as it means being careful in sharing certain information.
I suspect there’s a few on this board who are well connected, but unable to share certain bits of information they hear via reputable sources because of visibility of all posts.
Kind of why I kept quiet on much of the forum especially personal chats afterwards.
You know people know more than you and just hope everything falls in the right place but as time progresses you begin to realise that anything falling is going to miss.
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It’s a shame at times that this forum is so open, as it means being careful in sharing certain information.
I suspect there’s a few on this board who are well connected, but unable to share certain bits of information they hear via reputable sources because of visibility of all posts.
Share anything secret with me and you might as well print it on the front page of The Sun.
Well, exactly Nelly you were leaked I’d worried about most ;D
(I’mjoking of course)
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3 people can keep a secret................so long as 2 of them are dead.
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Brian Moore speaks -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/no-special-case-wasps-avoiding-25225039?utm_source=coventry_live_newsletter&utm_campaign=wasps_newsletter2&utm_medium=email
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NEC bid for arena
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/nec-group-lodges-bid-coventry-25228709
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NEC bid for arena
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/nec-group-lodges-bid-coventry-25228709
Now that is a very big oops.
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And this means?? I expect I'm wrong as per but it seems to say NEC wants the building for Exhibitions etc but doesn't want Wasps? So are we about to be tenants again I wonder. And CCFC. We live in interesting times, and that ain't good.
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And the next story, busy evening!
Ex-Newcastle owner Mike Ashley held talks with Wasps about takeover https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11300679/Ex-Newcastle-United-owner-Mike-Ashley-held-talks-Wasps-potential-takeover.html?ito=native_share_article-masthead
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At least we won’t become NEC Wasps.
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Ooh somebody mentioned this to me during the match yesterday and I poohooed it as rubbish.
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Good grief Chunky .... you're a mine of information and no mistake! I just hope that the sources have their info correct. I can't keep up with this but isn't it nice (so it seems) to be wanted. It would take a heap of negotiations if this does go ahead.
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Joking aside, there seems to be a lot of rumours flying around horrible options — Mike Ashley being one of the worst yet. It does beg the question as to what semi-horrible option is coming our way, as it feels like the ground being laid for people to say, “well, at least it’s not Mike Ashley!”
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I know little about Mike Ashley but that little bit I've heard hasn't been too good at all. I hope we avoid him.
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I know little about Mike Ashley but that little bit I've heard hasn't been too good at all. I hope we avoid him.
Ashley was hated because he wouldn’t spend vast fortunes on transfers in a league where spending vast fortunes is the only way to get fans on side. Even then, if that doesn’t bring instant and constant success you’re labelled a failure.
Not saying he’d be good for us, just pointing out it’s a different world.
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I know little about Mike Ashley but that little bit I've heard hasn't been too good at all. I hope we avoid him.
Ashley was hated because he wouldn’t spend vast fortunes on transfers in a league where spending vast fortunes is the only way to get fans on side. Even then, if that doesn’t bring instant and constant success you’re labelled a failure.
Not saying he’d be good for us, just pointing out it’s a different world.
That's what I was about to say
Newcastle fans main complaint was lack of investment in the squad.
In rugby we've got a salary cap of about £5m and no transfer fees
In premiership football, £5m is essentially 1 players salary
So, assuming he'd spend up to the cap each year, there couldn't be complaints about lack of investment
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Thanks for that explanation; I see what you both mean. We will have to rely on other people's judgement and reading of his character.
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If Ashley was to happen and keep the whole club/stadium/hotel/casino/exhibition/offices package together, the amount he'd need to spend on a rugby squad to be successful (as stated above) is "peanuts" to what Newcastle was in the Premier League or even the Championship to get out off that.
If the NEC Group are interested, then that indicates to me that the other "business interests" at the CBS have a genuine business potential for investors aside from rugby.
Lots to come out over the next few days, but at least things seem to be happening.
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If the club goes in to administration, any buyer can kiss goodbye to the stadium. Coventry City Council are not allowed to be 'nice guys'. They have a duty to bring the best possible deal to their taxpayers, and that means taking back the stadium and selling to the highest bidder, likely to be NEC if all that talk is true.
So the Armstrong bid is dead in the water.
Mike Ashley might indeed buy it, to get the stadium, and then use that to leverage a purchase of CCFC. Say what you may of him, he will not be as bad as SISU for them. He doesn't want Wasps (he has no interest in Rugby at all), so he will re-sell them, maybe to Armstrong, but without the stadium, and probably still with some debt. That will leave Armstrong having to build or buy a stadium. Would he buy the Sixways site? If he does, he loses any Wasps fan who comes by train from the South East, as it is almost quicker to cycle that journey than take the train. And alienates every citizen of Worcestershire.
The NEC wouldn't care which way they acquire the asset, and wouldn't care about Wasps or CCFC, being quite likely to kick them both out as quickly as they can, and use the pitch for exhibition space instead.
Wait, this all sounds very much like a post I did earlier, where the best case scenario was for Wasps to at least stay in the PRL and not go in to administration, but get kicked out of the Arena within a few years. Then all they need is a new stadium. And, I said then, giving Coventry RFC some room and thus not in Coventry.
That is the best Wasps can hope for. I think Administration is more likely. I think we will see HMRC/DCMS issue more winding up orders very soon, as it is clearly very effective at concentrating the minds of owners at these clubs, especially if Wasps pull something off and get that £2m to them in time.
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Or maybe Ashley would look after Wasps, who knows?
SportsDirect could set up a warehouse at the site, run the shop ....
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Exclusive: Prospective Wasps owners will stomach relegation if lucrative 'P share' retained
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/exclusive-prospective-wasps-owners-will-stomach-relegation-if-lucrative-p-share-retained/ar-AA12O72p?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b165161eeeb64a4ba6896279eff7c5d8
any more permutations?
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Gordon Bennet - I'm going to bed to rest my brain. What on earth will tomorrow bring? ? ?
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Gordon Bennet - I'm going to bed to rest my brain. What on earth will tomorrow bring? ? ?
The Chinese in partnership with Putin.
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I can't see how anyone thinks waiting for us to go into administration is a good thing? Yes you don't have to deal with the debt, but there'll be virtually no assets either, no stadium, likely no P shares, and no premiership place either.
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If the club goes in to administration, any buyer can kiss goodbye to the stadium. Coventry City Council are not allowed to be 'nice guys'. They have a duty to bring the best possible deal to their taxpayers, and that means taking back the stadium and selling to the highest bidder, likely to be NEC if all that talk is true.
So the Armstrong bid is dead in the water.
Mike Ashley might indeed buy it, to get the stadium, and then use that to leverage a purchase of CCFC. Say what you may of him, he will not be as bad as SISU for them. He doesn't want Wasps (he has no interest in Rugby at all), so he will re-sell them, maybe to Armstrong, but without the stadium, and probably still with some debt. That will leave Armstrong having to build or buy a stadium. Would he buy the Sixways site? If he does, he loses any Wasps fan who comes by train from the South East, as it is almost quicker to cycle that journey than take the train. And alienates every citizen of Worcestershire.
The NEC wouldn't care which way they acquire the asset, and wouldn't care about Wasps or CCFC, being quite likely to kick them both out as quickly as they can, and use the pitch for exhibition space instead.
Wait, this all sounds very much like a post I did earlier, where the best case scenario was for Wasps to at least stay in the PRL and not go in to administration, but get kicked out of the Arena within a few years. Then all they need is a new stadium. And, I said then, giving Coventry RFC some room and thus not in Coventry.
That is the best Wasps can hope for. I think Administration is more likely. I think we will see HMRC/DCMS issue more winding up orders very soon, as it is clearly very effective at concentrating the minds of owners at these clubs, especially if Wasps pull something off and get that £2m to them in time.
£2M is pocket money to the high rollers. If that could not be sorted that is an extremely poor situation.
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This is fascinating and stomach churning in equal measure. What we don’t know is who the reported other two bidders are given five are quoted and we only know of Armstrong, Ashley, NEC. Armstrong’s bid seems the most favourable and I can’t understand why other clubs would vote to strip us of our P share if a number of them are in a similar position?
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This is fascinating and stomach churning in equal measure. What we don’t know is who the reported other two bidders are given five are quoted and we only know of Armstrong, Ashley, NEC. Armstrong’s bid seems the most favourable and I can’t understand why other clubs would vote to strip us of our P share if a number of them are in a similar position?
Because the fewer there are the more they are worth? At keast in theory.
I suspect that if the Premiership is willing to let 2 teams go to the wall in a month the whole comp will.soon be worth a lot less.
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Ashley would be scary for me, I except it doesn’t cost a lot of money to run a rugby team, with a £5m cap. If you compare it to football but football brings in so much money, Newcastle get massive crowds, tv money it massive. Rugby just loses money, not sure Ashley would be interested in that.
I think we’re in serious trouble, don’t like the sound of the board turning against Richardson. He rightly wants his money back. It looks like to me we are going into administration, we will be relegated and we will lose a lot of good players.
Real shame, as I honestly believe we have the makings of a fantastic team, so many quality youngsters coming through.
I think it’s time we come back home, unfortunately playing in the championship - gutted
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Telegraph exclusive -
Exclusive: Prospective Wasps owners will stomach relegation if lucrative 'P share' retained
The P share, which entitles the 13 Premiership clubs to annual payouts as well as voting rights, is seen as a vital asset by front-runners
By
Charles Richardson,
RUGBY REPORTER
10 October 2022 • 10:00pm
The leading bidders to take over Wasps would reluctantly accept relegation in the event of administration - as long as the stricken club is able to retain its lucrative P share.
Telegraph Sport has learnt that Premiership clubs and the Rugby Football Union met on Monday afternoon to decide whether Wasps would be automatically relegated under regulation 5, should the West Midlands club fall into administration.
Premiership clubs and the English governing body also voted on whether Wasps would be able to retain their P share - owned by each of the 13 Premiership clubs, entitling them to annual payouts from central funding as well as voting rights on league matters - which is seen as a vital asset by the front-runners to take over the club, a consortium being led by former chief executive, David Armstrong, alongside investment firm, Terminum Capital and advisors, Oakwell Sport.
Armstrong's bid incorporates both the rugby club and its Coventry Building Society Arena, keeping them as one entity, and while it is understood that the consortium would prefer Wasps to retain their Premiership status, it is not integral to their takeover bid. Despite Mike Ashley also making a bid for the club, Armstrong's is the only viable offer to keep the rugby and stadium business whole.
The outcome of the clubs’ vote on Monday is unknown but the expectation, with several of them also in debt to HM Revenue and Customs, is that they would vote against allowing Wasps to retain their P share, which is worth in excess of £9 million. Making matters gloomier for the West Midlands side is that only a six-club majority would be required in any ballot, with both Worcester and Wasps unable to vote.
Telegraph Sport understands that a number of Premiership clubs are keen to see the league reduced to 10 sides and would not hold back from condemning Wasps to both relegation and a surrendering of their P share in the event of administration.
A well-placed source told Telegraph Sport: "We need to know the position of the Premiership clubs. Do the majority of owners want Wasps to remain as a Premiership club? Does the RFU want a wider playing pool? Is there any sympathy for a club that has come through Covid?”
Should the clubs vote to strip Wasps of their P share, however, all might not be lost. If the West Midlands side could prove that their financial complications have come about due to the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic, then a "no-fault insolvency" clause in the RFU's regulations would come into play and potentially spare the club from relegation or see them preserve their P share depending on the governing body’s judgment.
The RFU's "no-fault insolvency" clause states: "[The RFU] in its absolute discretion may reduce or waive in its entirety any sanction... where it is satisfied that the insolvency event would not have occurred but for...any epidemic or pandemic as categorised as such by the UK Government and/or the World Health Organisation".
Even if relegation to the Championship were forced upon Wasps, the club proving a "no-fault insolvency" - which is not a far-fetched conclusion considering how brutally the revenues of Premiership clubs were ravaged during the Covid pandemic - and retaining their P share by way of force majeure would still keep Armstrong's consortium interested.
If Wasps could not prove a "no-fault insolvency" then any potential takeover might have the option to repurchase the P share at a later date, but it would cost £9m to do so.
Telegraph Sport understands, too, that Wasps' £35m worth of debt to bondholders would be fully repaid by the consortium fronted by Armstrong.
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I agree Westy.
Ashley could easily afford to run a rugby club, but I'm sure he doesn't want to
So while that might save us today, tomorrow may not be much brighter.
However, I'm not sure where "home" is these days, and I'm not sure where we'd play.
The last time we were all having these discussions, the met police didn't want any more professional sports outfits in London, I'm assuming that still stands.
So it would be something outside of London. Can't imagine many people wanting to rent from Wycombe Wanderers again
In fact would being a tenant be any more sustainable now than it was last time?
New stadiums aren't exactly easy or cheap to come by either.
I have no problem with playing in the championship
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This is fascinating and stomach churning in equal measure. What we don’t know is who the reported other two bidders are given five are quoted and we only know of Armstrong, Ashley, NEC. Armstrong’s bid seems the most favourable and I can’t understand why other clubs would vote to strip us of our P share if a number of them are in a similar position?
Because the fewer there are the more they are worth? At keast in theory.
I suspect that if the Premiership is willing to let 2 teams go to the wall in a month the whole comp will.soon be worth a lot less.
Precisely - it becomes a farce. If the other teams in bother happen to be Falcons and Sale the game could diminish to being a niche occurrence that is invisible outside of the South West.
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This is fascinating and stomach churning in equal measure. What we don’t know is who the reported other two bidders are given five are quoted and we only know of Armstrong, Ashley, NEC. Armstrong’s bid seems the most favourable and I can’t understand why other clubs would vote to strip us of our P share if a number of them are in a similar position?
Because the fewer there are the more they are worth? At keast in theory.
I suspect that if the Premiership is willing to let 2 teams go to the wall in a month the whole comp will.soon be worth a lot less.
Precisely - it becomes a farce. If the other teams in bother happen to be Falcons and Sale the game could diminish to being a niche occurrence that is invisible outside of the South West.
Rather like Rugby Leage outside of the M62 corridor...
It's all a bit depressing, isn't it? Starting to feel very real and likely that we may have played the last game at the CBSA. I stand by my earlier assertions that the business plan being based around the use of the stadium and facilities for non-rugby events (such as major concerts - I note Arctic Monkeys are lined up for next year already) *is* a viable plan, and that were it not to have been for Covid then we would not be in this hole. Hoping the RFU invoke the "act of God" clause on this basis, and not because we're "too big to be relegated" (thanks, Lol).
The bid from NEC group supports my view of this business model, I think.
Product on the pitch (result notwithstanding) is brilliant in general - contributing to the excitement of games in the league going to the wire. I know we'd all prefer to be on the winning end of last minute scores, but as a viable product for neutrals / casuals you can't argue it's exciting.
(F**king frustrating for those with vested interests though!).
Hopefully some clarity comes soon, and we can concentrate on preparing for rugby, in whichever competition that may be. Still feel hopeful we won't suffer the awful fate of Worcester, but hope is the last thing to die...
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I was told last week (from the same source who mentioned the MA interest) that it was Falcons and Glaws.
Irish and Tigers also "up for sale" apparently.
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I agree Shugs, the whole surely becomes worth less if the others vote to relieve us of the share if "there but for the Grace..etc" is the reality for others. And it becomes a farce. The RFU needs to get a grip or else rugby in England is in a very sticky place.
I was certainly guilty of feeling a bit smug regarding the situation in the other countries (Wales , Ireland, Scotland ) but it seems they had a better grip of reality. Covid aside, it seems like too many ducks needed to line up for it to work. Some basics of gate income vs salaries suggest issues. And the game perhaps needs a rethink sooner rather than later?
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No coincidence then the Fraser Group want to build new headquarters at Anstey. A takeover from Ashley could be a good thing short term, saves the club, gives then breathing space and CCFC get a new owner to hate.
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Shugs,
The bid from NEC group supports my view of this business model, I think.
Just a thought, but is their a limit on the number of large events and is a stadium that size viable at that limit without football and rugby clubs using it regularly?
I can't imagine that the council would allow major rock concerts every week if they can be heard 11 miles away, for example.
Product on the pitch (result notwithstanding) is brilliant in general - contributing to the excitement of games in the league going to the wire. I know we'd all prefer to be on the winning end of last minute scores, but as a viable product for neutrals / casuals you can't argue it's exciting.
Yep. Its an emotional roller coaster for us but you can see why BT like our games.
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Just seen on Twatter that Chris Foy reckons Ashley is interested in a package that includes CCFC. No doubt that’s got the football crowd wound up.
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It's one thing Wasps running a few concerts a year to bring some extra money in.
It's another thing for NEC to be running an exhibition centre and concerts in as many weeks at possible.
It may well be a profitable business if you have constant gigs, but maybe not when you only run a couple per year.
Ultimately, how much do Wasps get for a gig at the stadium. I fear that it's not that much, particularly if using that income to help pay off £35m
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I'm coming around to the idea of Mike Ashley.
Not because I think it'd be good for our long term future... I don't.
I think we'd be the poor relative again, similar to the Steve Hayes days.
However, it feels like the only solution that keeps us going for the next few years, which at the moment feels like the priority
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I'm coming around to the idea of Mike Ashley.
Not because I think it'd be good for our long term future... I don't.
I think we'd be the poor relative again, similar to the Steve Hayes days.
However, it feels like the only solution that keeps us going for the next few years, which at the moment feels like the priority
Kind of what we just said in a discussion a complete return to Steve Hayes Times if it were to be Ashley then Rugby becomes the junior partner again. Also when you consider the pay cap of £5m this is peanuts to Ashley when the NCFC vitriol was over not spending hundreds of millions on one player!
I still think we are gone though helped along by Estate Agents, Cheetahs and other dubious entities.
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Quite frankly I would take anyone's money at the moment!
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I think we need to come to terms with where we are as a club, and that is.... On the brink.
The stadium asset is as good as gone. Even if someone like Ashley buys us, the stadium and CCFC, then ultimately at some point down the road we'll be for sale without the stadium.
So, what we're after is survival of some form, if that involves a drop to the championship then so be it - that's not really so terrible.
The NEC purchase of the stadium doesn't seem to offer much in the way of hope of survival.
I'm nervous about the Armstrong bid, but only because I can't recall the circumstances around his leaving the last time
At this point, any bid for Wasps is about the stadium and maybe the football club, we're just along for the ride
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Article on RugbyPass here: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/ex-newcastle-owner-mike-ashley-interested-in-buying-wasps-report/
Final paragraph doesn't read well: “One well-placed source claimed that the club are in danger of running out of money for wages and essential costs this week and that overall they are swamped by a ‘debt pile of £65m’. The source added that the financial crisis has been ‘snowballing and snowballing’, with Wasps continuing to use consultants, despite knowing that they can’t afford to pay for their services.”
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I think as a club we are in trouble. I genuinely believe that without Covid we may well have created a business sustainable enough to support the rugby club. But right now I think that we need a vast amount of money to keep just the business afloat. I also think that without Derek the chances of us losing the club in order to keep the business going are way too high for my liking.
I'm going to nail my colours to the mast here and say that however this pans out I am deeply grateful to him for what he has done over the last few years. We wouldn't have had a club without him, and if it turns out we don't have a club in the future it changes nothing. I have had a huge amount of joy from my association with him and the club and I wish there was a way it could continue.
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I think as a club we are in trouble. I genuinely believe that without Covid we may well have created a business sustainable enough to support the rugby club. But right now I think that we need a vast amount of money to keep just the business afloat. I also think that without Derek the chances of us losing the club in order to keep the business going are way too high for my liking.
I'm going to nail my colours to the mast here and say that however this pans out I am deeply grateful to him for what he has done over the last few years. We wouldn't have had a club without him, and if it turns out we don't have a club in the future it changes nothing. I have had a huge amount of joy from my association with him and the club and I wish there was a way it could continue.
+1. Derek comes across as a very decent bloke and a big Wasps fan. It will be sad to see him moving on.
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I agree with others that Wasps are on the brink here.
Sadly I think if Wasps get relegated that will be the end.
Assume that for wasps to be relegated they must first go bust/into liquidation whatever the correct term is.
Also assume that if they go bust they must sell/forfeit the CBS arena to pay off the Bond.
Given wasps don't own the training ground, what assets do they have apart from their P share? And there's no guarantee they would be allowed to keep that.
If Wasps goes bust the players & coaches won't be paid so will be free to sign elsewhere, for some onto the dole probably!
So Wasps could find themselves with nowhere to play, no team to play with, no coaches, no P share & no money…
How would they be able to survive in the Championship ?
If it got to that point IMO they would go the way of London Welsh & remain as an amateur club only.
The solution has to be some kind of takeover/buy out that clears the debts without the club going into formal liquidation & keeps hold of the stadium, its P share & the players.
However it sounds like some of the buyers would prefer the club to go bust so they can pick the stadium up separately, as that seems wasps only real asset.
We just have to hope someone has deep enough pockets to be able to cover the debt & have enough working capital to move the whole thing forward, unlikely as that may sound.
If the above happens I would second what VV says, Derek rescued Wasps & has allowed us all to enjoy exciting rugby with some truly amazing players over the last few years. We should all be thankful for that, even the future looks bleak.
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Given Wasps don't own the training ground, what assets do they have apart from their P share?
Christopher Holland, our Chief Operating Officer, owns the training ground.
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I feel I'm on the same page as others. I was only thinking back to 70's Divisional rugby with a mate the other day. The time when we could get cheap tickets for old HQ. I identified as a Wasp back then and when watching England at the 87 RWC.via being the only Wasp in a whole block at Tigers getting up and shouting when we scored. In the 2010's I've not been able to attend many recent games due to 5 years of random health but love the forum And watch every live tv game. And am really rather affected by all of this. Local S Glos games await.
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Given Wasps don't own the training ground, what assets do they have apart from their P share?
Christopher Holland, our Chief Operating Officer, owns the training ground.
Agreed, but the point still stands, Wasps don't own the training ground, its owned by another company owned by Chris Holland yes?
I wouldn't have thought it therefore could not be listed as a Wasps asset?
If there are no players to train there & no club to pay insurance, utility bills, grounds men etc, I'm not sure what value it would have anyway, apart from the land itself of course.
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Heart-breaking for Derek.
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More on Ashley from Andy Turner, Cov Tel.
Mike Ashley in Coventry City link amid Wasps and CBS Arena takeover claims
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-mike-ashley-stadium-25230612 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-mike-ashley-stadium-25230612)
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Given Wasps don't own the training ground, what assets do they have apart from their P share?
Christopher Holland, our Chief Operating Officer, owns the training ground.
Agreed, but the point still stands, Wasps don't own the training ground, its owned by another company owned by Chris Holland yes?
I wouldn't have thought it therefore could not be listed as a Wasps asset?
If there are no players to train there & no club to pay insurance, utility bills, grounds men etc, I'm not sure what value it would have anyway, apart from the land itself of course.
Is this not akin to some of the shenanigans at Worcester before they went, albeit on a smaller scale? Owners strategically offloading key assets just to place them beyond the reach of administrators in that event. As I understand it from some of the Worcester discussions there are safeguards in place to reclaim such assets if needed, but I have no idea how that works. If the administrators can see through this at Worcester and reclaim the car park or what ever other bits of land they hastily "sold", then presumably they can do the same with Wasps and the training ground.
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Given Wasps don't own the training ground, what assets do they have apart from their P share?
Christopher Holland, our Chief Operating Officer, owns the training ground.
Agreed, but the point still stands, Wasps don't own the training ground, its owned by another company owned by Chris Holland yes?
I wouldn't have thought it therefore could not be listed as a Wasps asset?
If there are no players to train there & no club to pay insurance, utility bills, grounds men etc, I'm not sure what value it would have anyway, apart from the land itself of course.
Is this not akin to some of the shenanigans at Worcester before they went, albeit on a smaller scale? Owners strategically offloading key assets just to place them beyond the reach of administrators in that event. As I understand it from some of the Worcester discussions there are safeguards in place to reclaim such assets if needed, but I have no idea how that works. If the administrators can see through this at Worcester and reclaim the car park or what ever other bits of land they hastily "sold", then presumably they can do the same with Wasps and the training ground.
Probably depends on how it was purchased originally. Was it bought through a seperate company with Wasps just renting/leasing , so never a wasps holdings asset.
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LoL clarifies and apologises. This looks like a complete lift from his statement on Rugby Tonight -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/lawrence-dallaglio-wasps-worcester-warriors-25232859
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I don't know for certain, but having met Chris and Derek at the training centre both during the build, and at the official opening I think Chris was responsible for making it happen in the first place. I suspect he went a long way to financing it as well as managing the project overall.
I'd guess that his investment got him a place on the board and an agreement that Wasps would be the sole tenants of the facility, which lets remember, is world class.
If Wasps go to the wall he has a world class training centre that while originally made for Rugby could very easily be turned to something else.
Or perhaps Ashley will buy that too.
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LoL clarifies and apologises. This looks like a complete lift from his statement on Rugby Tonight -
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/lawrence-dallaglio-wasps-worcester-warriors-25232859
Very concerned about the last paragraph saying the board is split on what is best and has put some buyers off
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This is all very much more complicated because it has dragged on for months and months (much like with Worcester), as best options have fallen away for worse options to be considered, and as they become the only options, for them to fall away too.
If Mike Ashley would want CCFC, that would have to come first, and that would take months. Not happening.
If Mike Ashley wants Wasps, and the Arena. Fine, but I do not understand why?
If Mike Ashley wants the Arena, and would buy Wasps to get it, I can see him offloading Wasps and kicking us out. I can then see him offering to buy CCFC, but at the same time working on alternate uses for the Arena.
If Mike Ashley wants the Arena and Wasps, but wants Wasps out of the Arena, he would have to build a new stadium, which would take time.
My guess is that SISU will sell CCFC only if the buyer also agrees to buy the Arena for them.
If we go in to administration, I can see someone, like NEC, buying the arena and kicking at least us out (and maybe CCFC).
In most scenarios I can see why someone would buy us before Administration, to get the Arena and boot us out (at some point).
I cannot see anyone wanting Wasps if in Administration and relegated. At least, not for any large wad of cash.
Personally, I care not one jot where we play, but would prefer it to be still in the Premiership. I do not like the Arena. It is impersonal, doesn't feel like a rugby stadium, is too big, and it really should be the home of CCFC, not Wasps.
Given the investment in the Training Ground, it would be good for the players to have a home ground in and around that area, but please not Sixways. That would feel so totally wrong.
I simply cannot see this getting resolved before next Wednesday, I really can't. It is too complex.
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This is slightly OTT, but can anyone tell me what CCFC/SBT are making of all this?
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This is slightly OTT, but can anyone tell me what CCFC/SBT are making of all this?
No idea, but I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and guess that it includes: "Hurry up and go"; "Should never have come here in the first place"; "Hope they sink without trace"; "Now give us our stadium back"; "F*** off back to London"; "Serves them right" etc...
Am I right??
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This is slightly OTT, but can anyone tell me what CCFC/SBT are making of all this?
No idea, but I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and guess that it includes: "Hurry up and go"; "Should never have come here in the first place"; "Hope they sink without trace"; "Now give us our stadium back"; "F*** off back to London"; "Serves them right" etc...
Am I right??
I expect you're right but some of them might realise that they're pretty far up shit creek regarding where they play as well.
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I simply cannot see this getting resolved before next Wednesday, I really can't. It is too complex.
I don't disagree, but some of this must have been going on for months surely?
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This is slightly OTT, but can anyone tell me what CCFC/SBT are making of all this?
No idea, but I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and guess that it includes: "Hurry up and go"; "Should never have come here in the first place"; "Hope they sink without trace"; "Now give us our stadium back"; "F*** off back to London"; "Serves them right" etc...
Am I right??
I expect you're right but some of them might realise that they're pretty far up shit creek regarding where they play as well.
Surprisingly quiet given the news overnight/this morning - Nothing on their 'Wasps downward spiral' thread since lunchtime yesterday. Unsurprisingly, lots of chat on their thread on the main board discussing what it all means for CCFC.
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I expect you're right but some of them might realise that they're pretty far up shit creek regarding where they play as well.
I doubt it, most seem to feel they have a good given right to the Arena, it's "their" stadium after all!
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I expect you're right but some of them might realise that they're pretty far up shit creek regarding where they play as well.
I doubt it, most seem to feel they have a good given right to the Arena, it's "their" stadium after all!
Well, the last person who believed he had a 'divine right ' got his head chopped off😁
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I do enjoy historical repetition ..... If only .............
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Looks like Mike Ashley is already looking to invest in the area: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/whats-on/hotel-leisure-facilities-planned-retail-25135144
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Looks like Mike Ashley is already looking to invest in the area: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/whats-on/hotel-leisure-facilities-planned-retail-25135144
That is some investment so close.
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Some support for LoL -
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/i-actually-like-the-fact-lawrence-speaks-the-way-that-he-does-dallaglio-wasps/
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That's very interesting. Especially the fact they talk about that site including hotel and leisure facilities.
Global HQ and own brand on the top sporting arena? Makes sense.
Also, as an aside, I can't read the brand "Jack Wills" without seeing... well, you know who!
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Also, as an aside, I can't read the brand "Jack Wills" without seeing... well, you know who!
Same. Been calling it Jack Willis for years!
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Looks like Mike Ashley is already looking to invest in the area: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/whats-on/hotel-leisure-facilities-planned-retail-25135144
That is some investment so close.
Given our sclerotic planning process it’s 10 years away.
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Can see this has got legs. Want to make sure your planning goes through? Ingratiate yourself in locality by buying local sporting clubs with buildings and land next to existing retail park.
+2 on JW front - maybe scope for a sponsorship deal / deed poll change?
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Some support for LoL -
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/i-actually-like-the-fact-lawrence-speaks-the-way-that-he-does-dallaglio-wasps/
Eggchasers chatted about this on their latest Podcast. Their view was, good on Dallaglio for being passionate about Wasps, why shouldn't we embrace those with a clear dispensation towards a particular team - Monye, Healey and Kay all do as well. Dallaglio is no exception there.
They also made the point that frankly, he's right - Wasps do have a bigger rugby history than Warriors.
However, that two things can be true at once. Wasps do have a bigger history and brand for PRL, but that doesn't mean that we should escape sanction within the Rules (whatever they may be these days).
And with that said, the outrage on Twitter and in the press over the comments was unnecessary and OTT. Which, sadly these days, is par for the course when it comes to Social Media.
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Wasps case is unquestionably different, just not for the reasons Lol clumsily gave on BT.
PRL and the RFU do have a loophole with the pandemic clause in the rules relating to administration. However, having acted pretty swiftly to suspend and relegate Worcester, they have set a precedent that is very concerning for Wasps. That the two clubs got to where they are in very different circumstances is unlikely to cut much ice, and if the same rule was not applied to Wasps, then the media (social and otherwise), Worcester fans and the rugby public would point to Lol's comments as the reason without bothering to try and understand the true reason.
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It might only be the proverbial stone's throw down the road (3-4 miles as the crow files, 5 miles down the motorway), it is in Warwickshire - Rugby - for planning purposes.
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So supposedly we have 5 interested parties but only know of 3. Haven't the other 2 be going a lot longer and surprised we haven't heard anything about them.
Also why do coventrylive keep saying Wasps have until Monday to sort things out, I thought it was Wednesday 19th
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So supposedly we have 5 interested parties but only know of 3. Haven't the other 2 be going a lot longer and surprised we haven't heard anything about them.
Also why do coventrylive keep saying Wasps have until Monday to sort things out, I thought it was Wednesday 19th
Why? Who knows? Maybe they can't count or use a calendar? Maybe there is a critical payment that has to be made, like to HMRC?
As to why, I think that those bids we have heard of has been due to leaks from them, not from Wasps. The other two parties, if they exist, may be better at keeping mum.
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So supposedly we have 5 interested parties but only know of 3. Haven't the other 2 be going a lot longer and surprised we haven't heard anything about them.
Also why do coventrylive keep saying Wasps have until Monday to sort things out, I thought it was Wednesday 19th
Radio 5Live were saying this morning that there is a Winding Up petition in the court on Monday. I guess that is why...whether it is accurate or not is another thing.
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Whilst in the current process, the Court will stay any order it makes. So, the Court can (will) make the winding up order, but stay execution until the current process is complete. Should Wasps not pay its debts by next Wednesday, or fail to go in to administration, the petitioner would come back and have that stay removed. Probably HMRC turning up the heat. It is preferable not to have that made on Monday, so Wasps now have less time. Remember, Wasps can only go in to administration (in the current circumstances if a buyer has agreed to stump up the money already, but all that is needed is time). So, if a buyer is at that point by Sunday, they would likely have to directly fund the payment on Monday to stave off that creditor. Personally, I don't see it happening. It is all too late and hurried.
Makes me wonder if CCFC will be able to play their game next Wednesday evening?
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We are in a different position to Worcester.
Firstly, apart from HMRC and the bond holders, who are still getting interest payments, there isn't a trail of unpaid suppliers and partially or unpaid paid staff and players. Our management team have, from what we can see, acted in good faith with the best interests of the business and club in mind at all times and appear to have credibility with potential buyers and financers. I also assume they've been open with PRL.
By the end the owners of Worcester had a trail of unpaid suppliers and little credibility with anyone so winding up was the only option and the company holding the players contracts was liquidated so no longer exists and therefore no team. Nobody stepped forward immediately after wards to pick up the pieces and that meant there's nobody to fulfil the fixture list. Its too late now as the team is scattering on the wind so PRL had little option but to suspend and relegate them, whoever "them" is.
I think its doubtful they'll be in a position to play in the Championship the way things are going. They've got to put a credible plan and team together and convince TPTB that they will be able to fulfil any obligations if they are allowed in to the Championship and presumably the other clubs get a say on whether they are allowed in.
If we go in to administration the Administrator can look at the finances, he's probably doing that now, and if he decides there's still a viable operating company that can fulfil its obligation while a sale is finalised or debts restructured he could ask the judge to allow him time to finalise whatever deal is most likely. Or of course it could be a straight forward pre-pack.
OK, those are big ifs, but going in to administration is not an automatic winding up and sacking of players and staff. Although to be fair if I was a player of member of staff I would be looking for alternative employment.
None of that is to say we won't get relegated if we come out of administration in some form or other, that's a different argument and I don't know enough to even form an opinion.
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So supposedly we have 5 interested parties but only know of 3. Haven't the other 2 be going a lot longer and surprised we haven't heard anything about them.
Also why do coventrylive keep saying Wasps have until Monday to sort things out, I thought it was Wednesday 19th
Presume this wasn’t one of the other interested parties? No mention of wasps in purchase . Interesting that it says SISU aren’t actively looking to sell CCFC, but I guess if price was right…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63219478
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I wouldn’t worry too much about the credibility of that one to be honest.
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Re the Jack Wills lines earlier, a rugby tie up would seem to sit well the brand and might not do it any harm.
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Heineken reported to have removed stock
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https://www.rugbypass.com/news/wasps-as-we-know-it-very-unlikely-to-continue/
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Heineken reported to have removed stock
Every cloud. A foul brew!
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https://www.rugbypass.com/news/wasps-as-we-know-it-very-unlikely-to-continue/
Yeah, next 48 hours s**t or bust i think. Who knows how / if we’ll emerge.
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The sharks are circling by the looks of it and I can’t see we’re going to come out of this as Wasps as we know it. Totally gutting and I’m barely able to get my head round it.
For the RFU and Premiership to allow a famous club like Wasps to go to the wall is damning on them and quite frankly, if this happens then that’s me done with the sport - it’s a shameful reflection on the bodies and competition themselves. Any competition that loses two clubs from its elite tier in a season has something wrong with it. This is the start of the rot and we won’t be the last I fear. The RFU and GP need to own their failure in all of this.
A lot of is down to Covid and with Saracens amazingly being able to sign a couple of ex-Worcester players today, it beggars belief on how the main body and league have been so soft on cheating whilst allowing other clubs to go to the wall. I feel enraged by the way the Cheats were allowed to keep their falsely won titles which should have gone to the respective runners up, went through the motions of a relegation whilst in the meantime being allowed to loan players out for a season to prem clubs, and retain their P share when it should have been stripped from them. If we are playing in a competition that so biasedly protects the interests of one club and metes out hard and fast punishments over any of the others, then it can keep it. I wonder who is actually running the league? For ruling bodies to be a doormat to the self interest on a single entity is shocking. I don’t remember Lance Armstrong being allowed to keep his titles and sit out the tour for a year, only to return next time round and carry on. This kind of culling of clubs will ultimately hit TV revenues, gate revenues, the English game’s standing in Europe, the England team and player development and the reputation of it’s credibility here. The ultimate cull will end in a few clubs playing a minority sport - and perhaps that’s what it will deserve.
If they have any sense then they would deduct 35 points from us and let us stay in the GP and begin again next year. No one at Wasps has cheated and I feel we’ve earned the right to a second chance.
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I feel dreadful. Heaven knows how the players and staff all feel.
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Sadly, Andy, you have perfectly summed up this whole foul mess, a mess created by the very people supposed to prevent such a terrible happening. What are they thinking of. Wuss Club is an innocent party (excluding the owners) and Wasps cannot be blamed for Covid and it's dreadful effects. It's a world wide pandemic for God's sake. We didn't create it. The Premiership will soon be composed of one single solitary cheating club rubbing it's hands together all the way to the bank. Is that really what the RFU truly wants. because it's what it will get.
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Padr of me has been wondering if this was Leicester what would the response be. Would there be a national outcry to save them or would the sharks be circling the same they are doing for us.
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It is what we get for voting against the cheats and shysters running the Estate Agents (twice caught), the Cheetahs along the road (sneakily just below the threshold) and the other two who
were never named at the time of the Estate Agents first (first found out) transgression.
I hope the two other clubs being named (Northern and SW (but SW is debatable)) realise that they will get no support when their turn comes.
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I feel like we've been here before, only this time it feels more inevitable.
It's disappointing that the sport as whole isn't trying to help, but with an eye on making the Prem a closed shop and marketed as "elite" there's only too many clubs more than happy to see a competitor fall into peril if it means they can survive.
If we lose our P shares we will never get back in. Never. We will be a Championship club at best, and a homeless one at that.
Sorry for being a downer, I'm just finding it hard to see a light at the end of the tunnel right now.
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PRL and the clubs that own it are so short sighted in this. If we go and even 1 other your are down to an 11 team league. The geographical make up would be East mids, South West, London. The game would be up as a professional, competitive and interesting league. As you say Andy - those in control bent over backwards to keep Sarries in the league. We and Wuss won’t and haven’t been afforded the same consideration. As well as the cheating Sarries caused the wage inflation that has led to some of this. Tigers or Sarries in this mess - someone would just make it work.
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I have said all along that ourselves and Worcester are a more visible problem that affects the whole league. If we go under then that’s 4 match SH revenue lost with most teams already in the red. Who next starts to struggle and is next in line for the chopping block? Gloucester, Falcons, Irish? Thanks to the overall lack of support from PRL and the RFU and the general size of the game in England the game below the Premiership is a chasm of difference in terms of quality. Ealing may make it, although like Bath, Saracens it would only be due to an owner bank account, and any loss of that would lead to a London Welsh scenario. Pirates, Jersey are well supported at that level but are unlikely to make the step up.
The Premiership is a mess, but anyone thinking it will stop at us if we fold would be fooling themselves.
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- those in control bent over backwards to keep Sarries in the league. We and Wuss won’t and haven’t been afforded the same consideration. As well as the cheating Sarries caused the wage inflation that has led to some of this. Tigers or Sarries in this mess - someone would just make it work.
This is basically being ignored. The attitude amongst supporters of the EA's is one of taking the piss as they got away with it and they try the classic strategy of the guilty of trying to make that they are the victims. And that we ought to lay off.
Too many people at the top are not prepared to admit that the whole model in England won't work. If that doesn't change then RU in England will continue to be in big trouble below international level.
That said the international game isn't immune to change.
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Can we talk about our problems without bringing up Saracens for once? I hate em as much as anyone, but for god's sake people, it's not relevant to our predicament.
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Can we talk about our problems without bringing up Saracens for once? I hate em as much as anyone, but for god's sake people, it's not relevant to our predicament.
Except it is.
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Can we talk about our problems without bringing up Saracens for once? I hate em as much as anyone, but for god's sake people, it's not relevant to our predicament.
Except it is.
Agreed. Rules were brought in to try to provide an equal playing field. To ensure financial stability throughout the league.
They repeatedly and consistently broke those rules and unsurprisingly the financial stability of the league has been damaged.
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Can we talk about our problems without bringing up Saracens for once? I hate em as much as anyone, but for god's sake people, it's not relevant to our predicament.
Except it is.
Not really. Wasps are about £90m in debt. SOME of that will be us trying to match their level of wages, but in the main we let the players go, or failed to recruit a specific player and recruited a different one.
I would guess at least £80m of the debt is on us. Half for the stadium. Maybe more if you include the interest on the bonds. A lot of the rest was Covid. And it has been Covid that provided the tipping point, combined with the global economic effect of the war in Ukraine hitting costs and income. Oh, and the SISU shenanigans (I doubt that they ever paid us our costs, and maybe now the money we owe them for the pitch repairs).
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Can we talk about our problems without bringing up Saracens for once? I hate em as much as anyone, but for god's sake people, it's not relevant to our predicament.
Except it is.
Not really. Wasps are about £90m in debt. SOME of that will be us trying to match their level of wages, but in the main we let the players go, or failed to recruit a specific player and recruited a different one.
I would guess at least £80m of the debt is on us. Half for the stadium. Maybe more if you include the interest on the bonds. A lot of the rest was Covid. And it has been Covid that provided the tipping point, combined with the global economic effect of the war in Ukraine hitting costs and income. Oh, and the SISU shenanigans (I doubt that they ever paid us our costs, and maybe now the money we owe them for the pitch repairs).
+1
I completely agree Sarries cheating didn't help the league Wrt salaries of other clubs.
But for us right now that just isn't relevant compared to the scale of the stadium finances, the move from London, COVID etc.
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As Saturday approaches, me and the lads are discussing what time and where to meet etc and it's really just hit me, that this could well be the last time......I suddenly feel very deflated. :'( :'(
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You are not alone Matelot :(
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Can we talk about our problems without bringing up Saracens for once? I hate em as much as anyone, but for god's sake people, it's not relevant to our predicament.
Except it is.
Not really. Wasps are about £90m in debt. SOME of that will be us trying to match their level of wages, but in the main we let the players go, or failed to recruit a specific player and recruited a different one.
I would guess at least £80m of the debt is on us. Half for the stadium. Maybe more if you include the interest on the bonds. A lot of the rest was Covid. And it has been Covid that provided the tipping point, combined with the global economic effect of the war in Ukraine hitting costs and income. Oh, and the SISU shenanigans (I doubt that they ever paid us our costs, and maybe now the money we owe them for the pitch repairs).
We owe the football club nothing for the pitch as they didn’t pay for it. Apparently a wealthy CCFC fan did.
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Even though I hate Sarries for what they did, it is definitely not the main reason we are in this trouble, it maybe for other clubs who are likely to be close to financial problems.
I just have a problem with DR and the directors for having a poor business plan and borrowing £35m to do it, it was pretty naive, how on earth did they think the £35m was going to be paid off, even without Covid, that is disappointing.
I really don't know what I'm going to do when we play our last game this weekend as a premiership club, most probably stop watching club rugby has i just couldn't bear it watching Sarries winning every season, what a terrible product rugby will be. I may just keep an half eye on the Willis brothers but please god don't play for Sarries
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It's not the main reason for Wasps demise, or Worcester's for that matter. But it a a significant contributory factor to the sorry state of finances throughout club rugby where no wealthy benefactor exists to support sustained over-spending.
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I don't believe anyone's suggesting that the wage inflation is linked to Wasps' debt levels. But the attitudes across the Prem seem to suggest that the EA's are/were treated differently to Wasps and Worcester. And their treatment has probably meant that other teams will be allowed to go to the wail. We're not all in this together. And rugby is devalued in England because of the EA's and that their cheating is let off as they can't be allowed to go under.
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I may just keep an half eye on the Willis brothers but please god don't play for Sarries
Wonder if they might be tempted to go to Irish (budget permitting) since that's where their dad played.
But God I hope someone can find a way to get Wasps in a position where we can keep hold of them.
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I honestly believe we have the potential of a great side, we have several outstanding players and still the potential of more in a year or 2 time, it is one of the reason that I'm really taking this situation pretty badly.
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Bobby on twitter just now:
"Wasps’ media call is scheduled for 2pm today (player, then Blackett). No zoom links have been sent out & no response to requests for link.
Unconfirmed, but I understand players & staff have been called into a meeting. Thurs is day off, Friday travel day for Exeter (A) on Sat."
Not sure what that means, really... keep an eye on twitter for info from players and staff this afternoon!
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Exeter game is off:
Breaking: Wasps pull out of their Premiership game against Exeter on Saturday. The club say it is “likely that they will enter into administration in the coming days”.
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Statement:
A spokesperson for Wasps Holdings Limited, said: “Since filing a notice of intention to appoint administrators on 21st September, we have been working tirelessly to secure the long-term future for Wasps Holdings Limited, and all of the organisations and clubs that sit within the Group.
“Negotiations to secure deals that will allow the Men’s and Women’s rugby teams, netball team and the arena and associated business to move forward are ongoing. However, it has become clear that there is likely to be insufficient time to find a solvent solution for the companies within the group, and it is therefore likely that they will enter into administration in the coming days with a view to concluding deals shortly thereafter.
“While the companies within the Group all represent strong and viable businesses, the reality is that they have insufficient cash at this time to continue to fund operations until these complex negotiations have concluded. We have therefore been asking potential funders and investors to provide bridging finance to provide enough time for a solvent solution to be found. Regrettably, this has not been possible to date, although we will continue to pursue this until the very last opportunity.
“In light of the current situation, we have therefore taken the decision to withdraw the Wasps Men’s team from this Saturday’s league fixture against Exeter Chiefs. This was an extremely difficult decision to make and we recognise that this will not only impact on our players, staff and supporters, but also Exeter Chiefs and the wider rugby community. However, we strongly believe it is the right course of action when, at this time, we are unable to meet our regulatory requirements in the absence of fully concluded deal negotiations.
“We understand that this news will be disappointing and concerning for everyone involved. Our immediate focus will be on ensuring that all of our players and the staff of Wasps and the arena are fully updated and given the support they need.
“While these are challenging times, we remain confident that new owners will be found that will allow the clubs and businesses within the Group to move forward.
“We will not be making any further statement at this time.”
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That is bad, really bad
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Well, it's been nice knowing you all.
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Ok. Thx for the statement. It's hard to take It.
Goodbye Wasps from Spain.i'm following the team during the last 20 years. Thanks for all to all the players,staff and followers.
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Damn.
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At the least, the directors have done the right thing when they must, rather than letting it get as far as a winding up order. This will have an immediate knock on effect on CCFC as well, as the administrator is unlikely to trade on. I wonder about the casino and hotel as well.
I guess we will find out in due course, in drips and drabs.
The key decisions are what happens with regard to bond holders (did they not have equity over the arena) and Coventry City Council. Were some of the Covid loans also secured on the Arena?
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Bugger, I think they in denial.
Lucky to find a buyer for any part of the business.
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Obvoiusly I'm gutted from a personal sense but thoughts go out to the players, coaches, medical team and all other support staff who have no idea where their next pay check is coming from.
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Meanwhile, over on SBT, champagne corks are popping. A few have realised this could affect them too.
If the rent etc that they were paying Wasps is not enough to cover the costs to the administrator of opening up the arena, and my guess is it will not, it will stay firmly shut. At least, until all the legal stuff is sorted and at least the arena is sold (which it likely will be fairly quickly).
The Sky Blues fans ought also to realise that their tenancy agreement is now null and void also.
Of course, the notice says 'intends', as that is the formality of the Court system, where the Court has the actual say so. But they always agree.
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Actual facts from the statement:
#1: Game against Exeter is off
#2: Insufficient cashflow to proceed as it stands
#3: Bridging loans were investigated, but not viable (as yet - still trying)
#4: Not in administration yet, although it is "likely" (*probably* inevitable now, mind).
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#4: Not in administration yet, although it is "likely" (*probably* inevitable now, mind).
All the Court paperwork will have been ready and by now will be with the Court for the afternoon hearings. I would be surprised if it isn't done already, or will be very soon.
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Well that's that, the removal (or understood removal) of the P Shares was always going to be the decisive blow.
Why would anyone buy the club? No ground, no rights to premier rugby, literally nothing apart from a tarnished brand.
It's heartbreaking, some of the best days of my life have been following this wonderful rugby club. It's produced so many memories and so many great players as well as done incredible work in the community and on a charitable front this is a real shame.
I would say I hope Premier Rugby and the RFU learn from this but they won't. Fingers crossed it all breaks down, Craig and Wray can play against each others team of mercenaries every week infront of no one in Barnet.
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Obvoiusly I'm gutted from a personal sense but thoughts go out to the players, coaches, medical team and all other support staff who have no idea where their next pay check is coming from.
+1
I'm still probably in denial still, for another half hour, somewhat like when I saw the scan for my hip joint. But it doesn't change anything, we're in the doo-doo's and unlike an injury, there's nothing that I can do. Feels like bereavement does. You might have seen the loss coming but that doesn't help.
English Rugby needs to recognise that this "illness" can and may spread, and action is needed before another couple of clubs follow on.
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Just seen the tweet and I have to say I am devastated. I didn't think our last game would be on Saturday but it is looking increasingly like it. My whole family are supporters, I have so many happy memories of taking my 3 boys to games, Twickenham wins ( and losses), away visits to Irish, Bath etc- cannot comprehed it may all be over.
However despite how I feel I cannot imagine how the players, coaches and staff accross all the Wasps teams feel - sports careers are short and can be cruel with injuries but this is beyond all that and my heart and best wishes goes out to all of them. Let's just hope we can get through the mess with a club intact, let's hope for their sakes, if not our own.
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Struggling to put a cogent thought together at the moment. This is very much like a bereavement.
Now ourselves and Worcester have fallen, my suspicion is that others may well follow, and then where does that leave the league?
A dark day.
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Very sad news. Yes, it’s like a bereavement.
With all the youngsters reaching maturity I really thought we were close to competing at the highest level.
Feel very sorry for all the staff and players.
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To be honest it’s going to be a total nightmare watching teams pick up the likes of The Willis’s, West, Launchbury, Shields, Atkinson etc etc etc. Especially as some of the acquiring teams are less than compliant with rules. We’re now in the hands of the other teams who I fancy will shaft us by relegating us and removing our P share. CCFC fans are the least of our worries. They will realise soon enough that in terms of playing in Cov they are shafted as well. Sad day.
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Not sure that many Premiership clubs will have budget and/or space within the salary cap to sign Wasps players.
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At least one of the takeovers required the business to go in to administration, Looks like we’re going to find out how serious they were.
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Not sure that many Premiership clubs will have budget and/or space within the salary cap to sign Wasps players.
Some won’t worry about that.
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oh
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Heartbroken, all we can do now is see what Wasps we get at the end of all of this.
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I've just messaged my wife saying that I feel like a friend has died, I'm glad there's others feel the same and that I'm not being melodramatic. No, I'm not glad, but you know what I mean!
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What I find interesting is the different treatment of rugby to football. If it were CCFC in administration there is no doubt that (unless they are a complete basket case like Bury) the administrator would find a buyer. The rumours are that Morecombe will go into administration soon (as collateral damage from Worcester going bust), but there is no doubt in the minds of fans that they will just be sold and carry on, albeit with a points deduction. Nowhere does anyone think they will be wound up, but here we are being wound up but with probably more prospects on or off the field than a club like Morecombe. I guess there must be different laws applying to football clubs than normal businesses.
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I've just messaged my wife saying that I feel like a friend has died, I'm glad there's others feel the same and that I'm not being melodramatic. No, I'm not glad, but you know what I mean!
I did the exact same! Apart from my local grassroots club, I don't think I can follow another club again if Wasps don't come out of this.
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Saved in 2014 to fail in 2022.
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I've just messaged my wife saying that I feel like a friend has died, I'm glad there's others feel the same and that I'm not being melodramatic. No, I'm not glad, but you know what I mean!
I did the exact same! Apart from my local grassroots club, I don't think I can follow another club again if Wasps don't come out of this.
Same here. But I will miss those European weekends.
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Saved in 2014 to fail in 2022.
Alienating a huge number of supporters in the process. I envy those that turned their backs on Wasps when we headed to Coventry. It was put to us as move or oblivion. Turns out it was move and oblivion.
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I'm hearing that our game at Exeter is off.
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I feel more like a good friend has gone in to hospital and the prognosis is not good. All we we can do is sit around and wait for the close family to confirm the expected bad news.
:'(
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I'm hearing that our game at Exeter is off.
It is. We have played our last match.
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As much as I feel for those whose livelihoods gave disappeared and for myself and fellow Waspies whose rugby needs will no longer be met, I can't help but feel anger at those who have had control of the club going back 25 years or more.
It's been one calamity after another.
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I see from the BBC that an American billionaire is looking to buy the stadium and CCFC. I wonder if that is one of the other interested parties?
I guess it is irrelevant now.
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As much as I feel for those whose livelihoods gave disappeared and for myself and fellow Waspies whose rugby needs will no longer be met, I can't help but feel anger at those who have had control of the club going back 25 years or more.
It's been one calamity after another.
A book could be written, if there is to be one let's hope it is done by a supporter rather than let one of the people who 'ran' the club profit.
Very sad day indeed. I tried to follow to Coventry, couldn't for logistical reasons, decided to turn my back on Wasps in about 2015 ish - but have learnt that you just can't switch it off.
Very sad day. Fingers crossed the whole shebang is bought from administration and resurrected by someone who knows what they are doing, with the money to do it.
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As much as I feel for those whose livelihoods gave disappeared and for myself and fellow Waspies whose rugby needs will no longer be met, I can't help but feel anger at those who have had control of the club going back 25 years or more.
It's been one calamity after another.
Let's not forget that despite all of that (and I certainly don't disagree), there have been many, many phenomenally good times thrown in in those years too.
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I'm just gutted. Been flagging this for years with our incredible £10m annual losses since 2014, been shot down every time. Gives me no pleasure to say it's been coming a long time.
I'm not sure if we are still banned from saying anything negative abut Wasps, but if I am banned it doesn't matter now anyway.
My point is I am amazed no-one here is angry with the useless incompetant Wasps board who has presided over this debacle, Eastwood Vaughan and Richardson in particular.
They have watched the disaster unfurl. £60M losses in 6 years. Waited until we hit the buffers and screwed the bond holders and loyal suppliers, with no plan B in 7 years of clear sight Coventry did and could not work.
Lied to people - quote Richardson recent statement
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-owner-derek-richardson-breaks-24747475
So 160 years of history thrown under the bus. Yes we were going under in 2014, but all we have done is extend the pain whilst ruining our reputation with the financial community and rugby community, and taken money from good people with false promises - virtually nothing in the 2014 bond prospectus came to fruition
I was interested to see what hey had to say tonight, but the Wasps website is down
It's not over, possible we can rise but not with the current 3 bids I am aware of. All three want the stadium and not the rugby club, even Armstrongs backers are venture capitalists who will be out for a fast buck
For me if we can find a proper rugby backer soon, who can honour the debts to the bondholders, sell the stadium and retain some staff and players, then get us back to within the M25 or near as hell, we can get back into premiership rugby with a future. And an 18,000 capacity stadium
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For me if we can find a proper rugby backer soon, who can honour the debts to the bondholders, sell the stadium and retain some staff and players, then get us back to within the M25 or near as hell, we can get back into premiership rugby with a future. And an 18,000 capacity stadium
If doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
This looks like it is it, the professional club is effectively dead. There've been a lot of great times, but what a way for it all to end.
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I'm just gutted. Been flagging this for years with our incredible £10m annual losses since 2014, been shot down every time. Gives me no pleasure to say it's been coming a long time.
I'm not sure if we are still banned from saying anything negative abut Wasps, but if I am banned it doesn't matter now anyway.
My point is I am amazed no-one here is angry with the useless incompetant Wasps board who has presided over this debacle, Eastwood Vaughan and Richardson in particular.
They have watched the disaster unfurl. £60M losses in 6 years. Waited until we hit the buffers and screwed the bond holders and loyal suppliers, with no plan B in 7 years of clear sight Coventry did and could not work.
Lied to people - quote Richardson recent statement
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-owner-derek-richardson-breaks-24747475
So 160 years of history thrown under the bus. Yes we were going under in 2014, but all we have done is extend the pain whilst ruining our reputation with the financial community and rugby community, and taken money from good people with false promises - virtually nothing in the 2014 bond prospectus came to fruition
I was interested to see what hey had to say tonight, but the Wasps website is down
It's not over, possible we can rise but not with the current 3 bids I am aware of. All three want the stadium and not the rugby club, even Armstrongs backers are venture capitalists who will be out for a fast buck
For me if we can find a proper rugby backer soon, who can honour the debts to the bondholders, sell the stadium and retain some staff and players, then get us back to within the M25 or near as hell, we can get back into premiership rugby with a future. And an 18,000 capacity stadium
Apart from disagreeing with almost every word you wrote...a couple of things.
Your claiming foresight of which almost every rugby supporter already knows, they all run at huge losses, so you're foresight isn't unique as much as you claim it to be.
I am not sure we'd be here if Covid hadn't gutted our financial model for 2 years, not just in in-flow but decemated in out-flow..
Related to the taking money from good people - purchasing a staggering 6.5% return bond is no different to buying ultra high risk stocks. If you know anything about finance, you'll know what I am saying.
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I'm just gutted. Been flagging this for years with our incredible £10m annual losses since 2014, been shot down every time. Gives me no pleasure to say it's been coming a long time.
I'm not sure if we are still banned from saying anything negative abut Wasps, but if I am banned it doesn't matter now anyway.
My point is I am amazed no-one here is angry with the useless incompetant Wasps board who has presided over this debacle, Eastwood Vaughan and Richardson in particular.
They have watched the disaster unfurl. £60M losses in 6 years. Waited until we hit the buffers and screwed the bond holders and loyal suppliers, with no plan B in 7 years of clear sight Coventry did and could not work.
Lied to people - quote Richardson recent statement
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-owner-derek-richardson-breaks-24747475
So 160 years of history thrown under the bus. Yes we were going under in 2014, but all we have done is extend the pain whilst ruining our reputation with the financial community and rugby community, and taken money from good people with false promises - virtually nothing in the 2014 bond prospectus came to fruition
I was interested to see what hey had to say tonight, but the Wasps website is down
It's not over, possible we can rise but not with the current 3 bids I am aware of. All three want the stadium and not the rugby club, even Armstrongs backers are venture capitalists who will be out for a fast buck
For me if we can find a proper rugby backer soon, who can honour the debts to the bondholders, sell the stadium and retain some staff and players, then get us back to within the M25 or near as hell, we can get back into premiership rugby with a future. And an 18,000 capacity stadium
Apart from disagreeing with almost every word you wrote...a couple of things.
Your claiming foresight of which almost every rugby support already knows, they all run at huge losses, so you're foresight isn't unique as much as you claim it to be.
I am not sure we'd be here if Covid hadn't gutted our financial model for 2 years, not just in in-flow but decemated in out-flow..
Related to the taking money from good people - purchasing a staggering 6.5% return bond is no different to buying ultra high risk stocks. If you know anything about finance, you'll know what I am saying.
Agreed 100%. I don't think the statement is lying that the businesses are viable in the long-term.
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I'm as gutted as the next man but let's not get all Gwyneth Paltrow about it.
No one sets out to fail, we got another 7 years of Wasps that had DR not stepped in, we wouldn't have enjoyed (mostly). To now start throwing stones is a bit distasteful in my eyes.
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For me it was the big statements made at the beginning on how wealthy the club would be that has upset me. Of course no one goes out to fail but it does look like they were well out of their depths and have made recent statements that they shouldn't have done.
I will agree the extra 7/8 years have seen some great times, especially the 1/4 final against Exeter, fantastic atmosphere and result. We did play some great rugby at times which I loved, just upset but grateful for the times
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They have watched the disaster unfurl. £60M losses in 6 years. Waited until we hit the buffers and screwed the bond holders
I can fully understand your disappointment But I want to point out that the bond holders have not been screwed (I invested a significant amount in the bond). The risks were there for all to see, and it looks like there is every chance of the capital being returned with all of the contract interest paid, and also a chance of the surplus interest (after the original maturity date) being paid too. Although I did hope that Wasps would somehow turn it around, this was always the way that I thought that it would end, there just wasn't a realistic business plan being implemented. Although to be fair, it was made much worse by Covid, and if Covid had not happened, they may well have been able to refinance without administration, but they were in trouble with their finances before Covid.
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Regarding the "Act of God" clause re relegation and going into administration, does anyone have background on how the relevant accounts were pre Covid such that Wasps Holdings Ltd could demonstrate their business assumptions were as much on track as they predicted?
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Regarding the "Act of God" clause re relegation and going into administration, does anyone have background on how the relevant accounts were pre Covid such that Wasps Holdings Ltd could demonstrate their business assumptions were as much on track as they predicted?
Unfortunately Mike, I think that's what's known as clutching at straws
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Regarding the "Act of God" clause re relegation and going into administration, does anyone have background on how the relevant accounts were pre Covid such that Wasps Holdings Ltd could demonstrate their business assumptions were as much on track as they predicted?
That is for Wasps to argue with the PRL, and indeed they may have already done so. One thing is for certain. As soon as they are officially in Administration, and with their website down I suspect they are, and as such all Social Media accounts ought to now also be locked, as well as any booking sites, shop, etc. We will not know anything until the Administrator says something, or someone with access to the Court can confirm an order has been made.
The administrator's first duty is to secure assets, publish their appointment (in the London Gazette) and then call a creditor's meeting, which is usually advertised in a local paper. Only 7 Administrations are so far listed for today in the London Gazette, not for Wasps.
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Let’s be clear - there’s still a huge amount to happen here. We don’t know if we’ll be relegated or lose our P share. Once the emphasis shifted from financing the debt to seeking a takeover that was always going to happen in administration. People with the sort of money to buy the level of assets in the mix don’t get that much of it by spaffing it up the wall on a regular basis when they don’t have to. So now we’ll see if any of them are serious. There’s a huge mix of alternatives with Wasps the rugby entity not being of standout appeal but we don’t know. There is a huge amount to happen in this yet.
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Seeing very much uncorroborated social media posts urging Wasps fans to tune in to CWR tomorrow at 8.15 for “better news”. Can hardly be any worse.
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I'm just gutted. Been flagging this for years with our incredible £10m annual losses since 2014, been shot down every time. Gives me no pleasure to say it's been coming a long time.
I'm not sure if we are still banned from saying anything negative abut Wasps, but if I am banned it doesn't matter now anyway.
My point is I am amazed no-one here is angry with the useless incompetant Wasps board who has presided over this debacle, Eastwood Vaughan and Richardson in particular.
They have watched the disaster unfurl. £60M losses in 6 years. Waited until we hit the buffers and screwed the bond holders and loyal suppliers, with no plan B in 7 years of clear sight Coventry did and could not work.
Lied to people - quote Richardson recent statement
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-owner-derek-richardson-breaks-24747475
So 160 years of history thrown under the bus. Yes we were going under in 2014, but all we have done is extend the pain whilst ruining our reputation with the financial community and rugby community, and taken money from good people with false promises - virtually nothing in the 2014 bond prospectus came to fruition
I was interested to see what hey had to say tonight, but the Wasps website is down
It's not over, possible we can rise but not with the current 3 bids I am aware of. All three want the stadium and not the rugby club, even Armstrongs backers are venture capitalists who will be out for a fast buck
For me if we can find a proper rugby backer soon, who can honour the debts to the bondholders, sell the stadium and retain some staff and players, then get us back to within the M25 or near as hell, we can get back into premiership rugby with a future. And an 18,000 capacity stadium
Sorry, this is not going to happen. Ever. The cheats can't get 10 k. Rugby in London is Quins. End of.
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Worcester Warriors to appeal Premiership suspension and relegation under 'no fault insolvency'
From the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63234851 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63234851)
I would assume we will be doing the same.
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Seeing very much uncorroborated social media posts urging Wasps fans to tune in to CWR tomorrow at 8.15 for “better news”. Can hardly be any worse.
a.m or p.m.?
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Sorry shugs seriously dump what is CWR
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Sorry shugs seriously dump what is CWR
I assume Coventry and Warwickshire Radio
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8:15 is the Phil Upton Show. At 8 they have a longish news slot, followed by weather. At around 8:15 they have a slot called Good Morning, Bad Morning. This morning the first story was Mike Ashley and Sports Direct possibly opening up that new place. It quickly descends in to Trivia usually, for example, Deliveroo offering finance for food purchases.
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It’s my birthday today too.. I’m lost for words. Found out I had a congenital defect and needed life saving heart surgery in June and only just over the shock of that, then this..what a year. Hopefully someone can come and do similar last minute surgery and we’ll will survive to ‘wear the yellow bonnet with Wasps written on it’ again.
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https://twitter.com/_AlexBywater/status/1580252689849409536?t=Xqs63zd9dUteRYWX7_O13w&s=19
Suspended from the Premiership
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https://twitter.com/_AlexBywater/status/1580252689849409536?t=Xqs63zd9dUteRYWX7_O13w&s=19
Suspended from the Premiership
They have jumped the gun or have more info than we have.
It looks like the end.
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https://twitter.com/_AlexBywater/status/1580252689849409536?t=Xqs63zd9dUteRYWX7_O13w&s=19
Suspended from the Premiership
They have jumped the gun or have more info than we have.
It looks like the end.
Likely because we cancelled the Chiefs match.
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8:15 is the Phil Upton Show. At 8 they have a longish news slot, followed by weather. At around 8:15 they have a slot called Good Morning, Bad Morning. This morning the first story was Mike Ashley and Sports Direct possibly opening up that new place. It quickly descends in to Trivia usually, for example, Deliveroo offering finance for food purchases.
Thanks!
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https://twitter.com/_AlexBywater/status/1580252689849409536?t=Xqs63zd9dUteRYWX7_O13w&s=19
Suspended from the Premiership
They have jumped the gun or have more info than we have.
It looks like the end.
Likely because we cancelled the Chiefs match.
Worcester were suspended after calling 2 games off if I have remembered that right.
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I think the suspension was protocol.
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It’s my birthday today too.. I’m lost for words. Found out I had a congenital defect and needed life saving heart surgery in June and only
just over the shock of that, then this..what a year. Hopefully someone can come and do similar last minute surgery and we’ll will survive to ‘wear the yellow bonnet with Wasps written on it’ again.
Adds perspective Andy. Hope you remain healthy.
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8:15 is the Phil Upton Show. At 8 they have a longish news slot, followed by weather. At around 8:15 they have a slot called Good Morning, Bad Morning. This morning the first story was Mike Ashley and Sports Direct possibly opening up that new place. It quickly descends in to Trivia usually, for example, Deliveroo offering finance for food purchases.
Thanks!
But, and this is important, we are as mushrooms in this. What could have happened already? Just supposition ...
Wasps approached an Insolvency Practitioner (IP) who agreed to act should the decision be made, and Wasps asked that IP to talk with the creditors in advance, to get a creditor's committee together (typically representing more than 50% of creditors by total debt). Usually, HMRC are in there. Many creditors give their proxy to the IP.
So that, by the time the Court approves the administration, a so-called pre-pack is in place.
Now, the IP has to advertise their appointment in the London Gazette, but it can take a day or two for that to appear. If the IP does not speak directly to the media, you have only small clues that the business went in to administration. Such as ... social media goes silent and website, online shop, etc. go offline (they did BTW).
The doors to the premises are locked. No idea if that happened. Staff are called to a meeting (I think BB said that happened this afternoon) to meet the IP and the directors.
If the pre-pack is in place, contracts would be signed within hours, and the deal announced publicly (after all, a rescue is a 'good' thing, so the media are spoken to). This has not happened. That is odd, as the UK business day is now over. Maybe the buyer is overseas in a country/timezone where the business day is different.
Money has to flow. For an overseas transfer to the UK of that size, the IP might not officially see it until early morning UK time, but will already have had proof it has been sent on its way. An American resident buyer for example.
IF a pre-pack was in place, and IF the administration was this afternoon, you could expect the new buyer to emerge tomorrow morning, on media channels local to Coventry (I can't see it making national news on air). Say, around 8am.
Of course, as a pre-pack, this will have been arranged in advance. The media station that will 'break' the news will already know. Staff at the IP will know. Staff at Wasps and directors (some at least) will know. Wasps' most important assets (the players) will know. Some will speak to friends, some to wives/partners/husbands/family, and rumours will appear.
I get the feeling this is what will happen. I get the feeling the RFU already know Wasps are in Administration, and THAT triggered the suspension.
I think they will hold fire on announcing the relegation to see if Wasps can limit the lost games to just the Chiefs one. If Wasps can manage that and get playing again, they will get hit with a 35 points deduction, but no relegation.
Worcester fans will say, what about us? The RFU will reply, do you still have players under contract, because Wasps do? Do you have a ground you can play at, because Wasps do? Do you even have an owner, because Wasps do.
Nice and neatly, the PRL becomes 12 teams again. And other clubs who are teetering know what they have to do. See how Wasps started this process just after paying the players and all staff, so they could all remain under contract? That's how you do a pre-pack insolvency.
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8:15 is the Phil Upton Show. At 8 they have a longish news slot, followed by weather. At around 8:15 they have a slot called Good Morning, Bad Morning. This morning the first story was Mike Ashley and Sports Direct possibly opening up that new place. It quickly descends in to Trivia usually, for example, Deliveroo offering finance for food purchases.
Thanks!
But, and this is important, we are as mushrooms in this. What could have happened already? Just supposition ...
Wasps approached an Insolvency Practitioner (IP) who agreed to act should the decision be made, and Wasps asked that IP to talk with the creditors in advance, to get a creditor's committee together (typically representing more than 50% of creditors by total debt). Usually, HMRC are in there. Many creditors give their proxy to the IP.
So that, by the time the Court approves the administration, a so-called pre-pack is in place.
Now, the IP has to advertise their appointment in the London Gazette, but it can take a day or two for that to appear. If the IP does not speak directly to the media, you have only small clues that the business went in to administration. Such as ... social media goes silent and website, online shop, etc. go offline (they did BTW).
The doors to the premises are locked. No idea if that happened. Staff are called to a meeting (I think BB said that happened this afternoon) to meet the IP and the directors.
If the pre-pack is in place, contracts would be signed within hours, and the deal announced publicly (after, a rescue is a 'good' thing, so the media are spoken to). This has not happened. That is odd, as the UK business day is now over. Maybe the buyer is overseas in a country/timezone where the business day is different.
Money has to flow. For an overseas transfer to the UK of that size, the IP might not officially see it until early morning UK time, but will already have had proof it has been sent on its way. An American resident buyer for example.
IF a pre-pack was in place, and IF the administration was this afternoon, you could expect the new buyer to emerge tomorrow morning, on media channels local to Coventry (I can't see it making national news on air). Say, around 8am.
Of course, as a pre-pack, this will have been arranged in advance. The media station that will 'break' the news will already know. Staff at the IP will know. Staff at Wasps and directors (some at least) will know. Wasps' most important assets (the players) will know. Some will speak to friends, some to wives/partners/husbands/family, and rumours will appear.
I get the feeling this is what will happen. I get the feeling the RFU already know Wasps are in Administration, and THAT triggered the suspension.
I think they will hold fire on announcing the relegation to see if Wasps can limit the lost games to just the Chiefs one. If Wasps can manage that and get playing again, they will get hit with a 35 points deduction, but no relegation.
Worcester fans will say, what about us? The RFU will reply, do you still have players under contract, because Wasps do? Do you have a ground you can play at, because Wasps do? Do you even have an owner, because Wasps do.
Nice and neatly, the PRL becomes 12 teams again. And other clubs who are teetering know what they have to do. See how Wasps started this process just after paying the players and all staff, so they could all remain under contract? That's how you do a pre-pack insolvency.
That’s almost like an episode from ‘hustle’ .
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website still up
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website still up
It went down soon after they made their statement. A while later it came back up.
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https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjK9-DOqNv6AhXUiVwKHd4kD34Q_1N6BAgHEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fpremrugby%2Fstatus%2F1580234447726989312%3Fref_src%3Dtwsrc%255Egoogle%257Ctwcamp%255Eserp%257Ctwgr%255Etweet&usg=AOvVaw2qk6QCr3SLJgqPaWhy9aKZ
And in all of this Atkinson gets try of week
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https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjK9-DOqNv6AhXUiVwKHd4kD34Q_1N6BAgHEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fpremrugby%2Fstatus%2F1580234447726989312%3Fref_src%3Dtwsrc%255Egoogle%257Ctwcamp%255Eserp%257Ctwgr%255Etweet&usg=AOvVaw2qk6QCr3SLJgqPaWhy9aKZ
And in all of this Atkinson gets try of week
Good on him. He gets a prize too, yes? A bottle or so of the amber liquid?
-
8:15 is the Phil Upton Show. At 8 they have a longish news slot, followed by weather. At around 8:15 they have a slot called Good Morning, Bad Morning. This morning the first story was Mike Ashley and Sports Direct possibly opening up that new place. It quickly descends in to Trivia usually, for example, Deliveroo offering finance for food purchases.
Thanks!
But, and this is important, we are as mushrooms in this. What could have happened already? Just supposition ...
Wasps approached an Insolvency Practitioner (IP) who agreed to act should the decision be made, and Wasps asked that IP to talk with the creditors in advance, to get a creditor's committee together (typically representing more than 50% of creditors by total debt). Usually, HMRC are in there. Many creditors give their proxy to the IP.
So that, by the time the Court approves the administration, a so-called pre-pack is in place.
Now, the IP has to advertise their appointment in the London Gazette, but it can take a day or two for that to appear. If the IP does not speak directly to the media, you have only small clues that the business went in to administration. Such as ... social media goes silent and website, online shop, etc. go offline (they did BTW).
The doors to the premises are locked. No idea if that happened. Staff are called to a meeting (I think BB said that happened this afternoon) to meet the IP and the directors.
If the pre-pack is in place, contracts would be signed within hours, and the deal announced publicly (after, a rescue is a 'good' thing, so the media are spoken to). This has not happened. That is odd, as the UK business day is now over. Maybe the buyer is overseas in a country/timezone where the business day is different.
Money has to flow. For an overseas transfer to the UK of that size, the IP might not officially see it until early morning UK time, but will already have had proof it has been sent on its way. An American resident buyer for example.
IF a pre-pack was in place, and IF the administration was this afternoon, you could expect the new buyer to emerge tomorrow morning, on media channels local to Coventry (I can't see it making national news on air). Say, around 8am.
Of course, as a pre-pack, this will have been arranged in advance. The media station that will 'break' the news will already know. Staff at the IP will know. Staff at Wasps and directors (some at least) will know. Wasps' most important assets (the players) will know. Some will speak to friends, some to wives/partners/husbands/family, and rumours will appear.
I get the feeling this is what will happen. I get the feeling the RFU already know Wasps are in Administration, and THAT triggered the suspension.
I think they will hold fire on announcing the relegation to see if Wasps can limit the lost games to just the Chiefs one. If Wasps can manage that and get playing again, they will get hit with a 35 points deduction, but no relegation.
Worcester fans will say, what about us? The RFU will reply, do you still have players under contract, because Wasps do? Do you have a ground you can play at, because Wasps do? Do you even have an owner, because Wasps do.
Nice and neatly, the PRL becomes 12 teams again. And other clubs who are teetering know what they have to do. See how Wasps started this process just after paying the players and all staff, so they could all remain under contract? That's how you do a pre-pack insolvency.
Blimey 😏
I popped out to get a meal feeling pretty fed up given the 🐝 news, then I read this on return.
Just wanted to say thx for cheering me up, even if it doesn’t last, that’s a glimmer of hope.
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website still up
It went down soon after they made their statement. A while later it came back up.
Thanks for the Pre Pack explanation. Really clear. Very helpful to avoid having to read the "papers"
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Just heard on the Beeb that other clubs may be in a similar position.
What would happen if, say, half a dozen clubs all went into administration? Would the Prem shrink? Would there be a mass promotion from the Championship? Would the relegation rule become unworkable if so many clubs went into administration. Would they have to tear it up, let the clubs find an acceptable equilibrium and let everyone start again?
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8:15 is the Phil Upton Show. At 8 they have a longish news slot, followed by weather. At around 8:15 they have a slot called Good Morning, Bad Morning. This morning the first story was Mike Ashley and Sports Direct possibly opening up that new place. It quickly descends in to Trivia usually, for example, Deliveroo offering finance for food purchases.
Thanks!
But, and this is important, we are as mushrooms in this. What could have happened already? Just supposition ...
Wasps approached an Insolvency Practitioner (IP) who agreed to act should the decision be made, and Wasps asked that IP to talk with the creditors in advance, to get a creditor's committee together (typically representing more than 50% of creditors by total debt). Usually, HMRC are in there. Many creditors give their proxy to the IP.
So that, by the time the Court approves the administration, a so-called pre-pack is in place.
...
That’s almost like an episode from ‘hustle’ .
I've been saying for a while that pre-pack looks the most likely option if Wasps are to survive and that's an excellent explanation form NWW on the way it works in practice.
There's nothing illegal or even immoral about it (IMHO but I'm sure that some will disagree). Its a sign that absent the major debts the underlying business is solvent.
More importantly, whoever buys it has convinced the creditors that with some restructuring of the debts and their business plan they are capable of paying the creditors more than they would get if the business was liquidated and sold piecemeal or in a fire sale.
The reason it goes in to administration is to take control away from existing shareholders, usually because the management would prefer the creditors took their proposed restructuring. In this case the management and shareholders are largely one and the same, but think big listed companies.
This is the bit some people think immoral because the shareholders have now lost their business and unless there's something in the pre-pack get nothing. The thing is, if the business was liquated they are at the very bottom of the pecking order and will
in all likelihood get nothing anyway. Its brutal, but that's what being a shareholder means, you get the profits even when they are windfall profits. They are the ones that allowed the situation to arise as well, but its hard not feel sorry for them in this situation.
The very big plus side is that most of the employees get to keep their jobs and usually small creditors eg local suppliers get paid off as well, but that's not a given.
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Worcester Warriors to appeal Premiership suspension and relegation under 'no fault insolvency'
From the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63234851 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63234851)
I would assume we will be doing the same.
Slightly misleading. The administrator has something to sell and it’s worth more if they can play in the Premiership.
Although how you’d put a business plan and new squad together in time to start next season is hard to see. Maybe Trailfinders should buy them? It would save the hassle of convincing PRL to let them in?
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Cryptic tweet by Paolo Odogwu, don't know enough to make a comment but interesting nonetheless.
https://twitter.com/notoriousPCO/status/1580298138887127040?t=hYhweGbuwd6MlUbfwaLqIw&s=19 (https://twitter.com/notoriousPCO/status/1580298138887127040?t=hYhweGbuwd6MlUbfwaLqIw&s=19)
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Appears to be a mouse?
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Appears to be a mouse?
And they are notoriously quiet
As in, 'I'm not saying a thing.'
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Appears to be a mouse?
And they are notoriously quiet
Yes, that's probably a better guess at what it means than my initial thought of a rat!
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It says to me : Keep this quiet but I'm moving on. I hope I'm totally wrong;
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I looked the emoji up:
A person being unusually quiet can also be represented through 🐁 for being discreet.
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https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjK9-DOqNv6AhXUiVwKHd4kD34Q_1N6BAgHEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fpremrugby%2Fstatus%2F1580234447726989312%3Fref_src%3Dtwsrc%255Egoogle%257Ctwcamp%255Eserp%257Ctwgr%255Etweet&usg=AOvVaw2qk6QCr3SLJgqPaWhy9aKZ
And in all of this Atkinson gets try of week
Good on him. He gets a prize too, yes? A bottle or so of the amber liquid?
A bottle or so of the amber - What?!?
Fosters??!!??!!
I know that Heineken have taken their beer back but surely the poor lad deserves better ....
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Famous Grouse Try of the week. The clue is in the name😉
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https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjK9-DOqNv6AhXUiVwKHd4kD34Q_1N6BAgHEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fpremrugby%2Fstatus%2F1580234447726989312%3Fref_src%3Dtwsrc%255Egoogle%257Ctwcamp%255Eserp%257Ctwgr%255Etweet&usg=AOvVaw2qk6QCr3SLJgqPaWhy9aKZ
And in all of this Atkinson gets try of week
Good on him. He gets a prize too, yes? A bottle or so of the amber liquid?
A bottle or so of the amber - What?!?
Fosters??!!??!!
I know that Heineken have taken their beer back but surely the poor lad deserves better ....
Saw how that story got moved on from beer taken back Tuesday to not available on Sunday. Was there on Sunday along with all the other brands that it supplies ( certainly in clubhouse- but maybe they had been refused entry for not having correct pass)
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I looked the emoji up:
A person being unusually quiet can also be represented through 🐁 for being discreet.
The players have had a few briefings and very little if anything has leaked. A sign that they trust the (old) management?
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Seeing very much uncorroborated social media posts urging Wasps fans to tune in to CWR tomorrow at 8.15 for “better news”. Can hardly be any worse.
Been listening for 10 minutes and no hint of anything Wasps. Its too banal to keep listening.
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Seeing very much uncorroborated social media posts urging Wasps fans to tune in to CWR tomorrow at 8.15 for “better news”. Can hardly be any worse.
Been listening for 10 minutes and no hint of anything Wasps. Its too banal to keep listening.
I'm keeping on trying....but blimey....banaaaaaaal.....
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It’s not the most dynamic is it. 😂
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Essentially - nothing really new - but a media explanation of what people on here have set out.
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Such an emotional rollercoaster yesterday. First mimi webb announces a tour, then the bad news about wasps followed by a great win for Liverpool.
I have woken up this morning with a more positive mindset. If we go into admin and are relegated, we will have a fresh start and let’s be honest it will only be one year down there. It could be a great chance to build spirit around the club. Fighting back in the face of our adversity. I will be there regardless. Hopefully the news will sting less and less once we can process the consequences more.
There’s still hope COYW
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Such an emotional rollercoaster yesterday. First mimi webb announces a tour, then the bad news about wasps followed by a great win for Liverpool.
I have woken up this morning with a more positive mindset. If we go into admin and are relegated, we will have a fresh start and let’s be honest it will only be one year down there. It could be a great chance to build spirit around the club. Fighting back in the face of our adversity. I will be there regardless. Hopefully the news will sting less and less once we can process the consequences more.
There’s still hope COYW
If "THEY" take the P Share off of us then we will have little hope. It will be a slow re-build like Exeter. BUT god knows where, as a tainted brand, we will play.
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It would be crazy if they were to take the P share from us. English rugby is struggling and they’ll need all the top clubs in the top league. Particularly when you consider the amounts of players we have supplied to England in recent times. Worcester fair enough but they would be foolish to relegate us
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It would be crazy if they were to take the P share from us. English rugby is struggling and they’ll need all the top clubs in the top league. Particularly when you consider the amounts of players we have supplied to England in recent times. Worcester fair enough but they would be foolish to relegate us
You are talking about the RFU and PRL- crazy covers them.
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It would be crazy if they were to take the P share from us. English rugby is struggling and they’ll need all the top clubs in the top league. Particularly when you consider the amounts of players we have supplied to England in recent times. Worcester fair enough but they would be foolish to relegate us
You are talking about the RFU and PRL- crazy covers them.
This
It seems that if the rumours about other clubs are anything like the case, they would be fine with a 6 club Prem....hardly box office....
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Such an emotional rollercoaster yesterday. First mimi webb announces a tour, then the bad news about wasps followed by a great win for Liverpool.
I have woken up this morning with a more positive mindset. If we go into admin and are relegated, we will have a fresh start and let’s be honest it will only be one year down there. It could be a great chance to build spirit around the club. Fighting back in the face of our adversity. I will be there regardless. Hopefully the news will sting less and less once we can process the consequences more.
There’s still hope COYW
If "THEY" take the P Share off of us then we will have little hope. It will be a slow re-build like Exeter. BUT god knows where, as a tainted brand, we will play.
Let me have the 'P' share. THEY will never find it 8)
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Baxter wants a 10 team Premiership.
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You see the way our basically third team competed at home to a Munster side including O’Mahony, De Allende, Murray etc. We do have potential.
Not to mention the crowds, not so long ago we were drawing 30k and at our lowest ebb on Sunday had over 10k. How many other clubs are drawing that? Even Coventry City before promotion were not getting that
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Hi All, i just wanted to jump on here and just express how i’m feeling in this current situation, it’s heartbreaking, waking up today i just wanted to go back to bed after hearing the news, i love going to the games, it makes my weekend watching the wasps win week in week out. i’m really going to miss it if we end up going into administration.
COYW
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Does anyone know if they have actually removed the P Share from Warriors?
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Does anyone know if they have actually removed the P Share from Warriors?
I don’t think they have mate
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https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1580462219262713856?s=46&t=7skgxttSUYsHLF0ugsjK2Q
Crazy to think a club could have such a long period without a home game through no fault of their own.
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Does anyone know if they have actually removed the P Share from Warriors?
Not yet. However they valued it at £9.8m to allow the taxman to be paid off if more funds are needed (and they appear to be needed)
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Hearing there are increasing concerns about two more Prem clubs financial situation.
If TPTB step in, surely they'd have to step in for all of those affected? Might be some hope. Of what, I'm not sure yet.
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Does anyone know if they have actually removed the P Share from Warriors?
Not yet. However they valued it at £9.8m to allow the taxman to be paid off if more funds are needed (and they appear to be needed)
They might be valued at £9.8m but they only worth what someone will pay for them and you’ve got to wonder who’ll pay that money? PRL to get them back? The other clubs jointly and severally to increase the book value of theirs and to ensure nobody else joins the cosy club?
That’s probably why there’s been no rumours about the PRL “taking them back”.
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Does anyone know if they have actually removed the P Share from Warriors?
Not yet. However they valued it at £9.8m to allow the taxman to be paid off if more funds are needed (and they appear to be needed)
They might be valued at £9.8m but they only worth what someone will pay for them and you’ve got to wonder who’ll pay that money? PRL to get them back? The other clubs jointly and severally to increase the book value of theirs and to ensure nobody else joins the cosy club?
That’s probably why there’s been no rumours about the PRL “taking them back”.
It was said the joint clubs, thus PRL, would purchase them. This to keep an enclosed product.
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Does anyone know if they have actually removed the P Share from Warriors?
Not yet. However they valued it at £9.8m to allow the taxman to be paid off if more funds are needed (and they appear to be needed)
They might be valued at £9.8m but they only worth what someone will pay for them and you’ve got to wonder who’ll pay that money? PRL to get them back? The other clubs jointly and severally to increase the book value of theirs and to ensure nobody else joins the cosy club?
That’s probably why there’s been no rumours about the PRL “taking them back”.
It was said the joint clubs, thus PRL, would purchase them. This to keep an enclosed product.
Where are they getting £20m for Wasps and Worcester P shares from? And if rumours are true they'll need another £20m soon.
If they've got that sort of money they should have been helping clubs out and investing in the product of rugby. The phrase no honour amongst thieves sprang to mind as I typed that, can't think why.
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Who can actually buy the P shares. Does it have to be a rugby club (why anyone else would want them I have no idea)? If it's only rugby clubs then it is doubtful that they are worth much...who would want one?
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I think another couple of clubs going to the wall would suit Baxter and co perfectly if they want a reduced league. I bet they can’t wait to take our P share away and ringfence their new clique.
I fear their self interest is at the expense of the wider game in England. I wonder if they’ve considered reduced TV revenues and a niche sport where internationals at Twickenham become corporate jamborees with no atmosphere.
The French Top 14 doesn’t seem to suffer as a result of club numbers and such elitism. If we found a buyer and got ourselves on a proper footing I wonder what would happen if we managed to join the Celtic competition, maybe with the likes of Worcester and others. That would put the cat amongst the pigeons…
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I don't know if this has already been posted (afraid I can't keep up). The article below shows the sort of knock on financial effect that losing two sides from the league can bring.
11-team league leaves Leicester without a home game for 50 days
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/11-team-league-leaves-leicester-without-a-home-game-for-50-days-premiership/ (https://www.rugbypass.com/news/11-team-league-leaves-leicester-without-a-home-game-for-50-days-premiership/)
Ominously, Tigers next home game after this break is Irish on Sunday, November 27th.
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I suspect if you have 4 clubs going into admin then very quickly there will be others. Gloucester said they would lose $350k from the missed Worcester game, that is a potential £1.4m loss in revenue for teams that haven't played any of the 4 teams in trouble. That would be a serious setback for anybody's finances and could put others in difficulty. I can see Baxter's idea of a 10 team Premiership being a bit of a dream.
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For what my opinion is worth, it's easy for Baxter to make such comments when your club is sitting cosy financially because owner and sponsor are one and the same.
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Rifleman Harris,
The £350k loss was of match-day revenue, not an overall loss. They'd save on avoiding match-day operating costs, which would be substantial.
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I think another couple of clubs going to the wall would suit Baxter and co perfectly if they want a reduced league. I bet they can’t wait to take our P share away and ringfence their new clique.
I fear their self interest is at the expense of the wider game in England. I wonder if they’ve considered reduced TV revenues and a niche sport where internationals at Twickenham become corporate jamborees with no atmosphere.
The French Top 14 doesn’t seem to suffer as a result of club numbers and such elitism. If we found a buyer and got ourselves on a proper footing I wonder what would happen if we managed to join the Celtic competition, maybe with the likes of Worcester and others. That would put the cat amongst the pigeons…
Could we do that? As an affiated RFU club they would probably veto it.
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Rifleman Harris,
The £350k loss was of match-day revenue, not an overall loss. They'd save on avoiding match-day operating costs, which would be substantial.
Ahh I misread that. I thought it was a loss of profit. Even so I guess there will be longer periods where there is no income and still expenditures so that won't help...unless they do what used to happen in football (and may well still do in the lower leagues) and only pay the players through the season and then compress the season.
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For what my opinion is worth, it's easy for Baxter to make such comments when your club is sitting cosy financially because owner and sponsor are one and the same.
It would be interesting to hear his comments if Exeter were in trouble
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For what my opinion is worth, it's easy for Baxter to make such comments when your club is sitting cosy financially because owner and sponsor are one and the same.
It would be interesting to hear his comments if Exeter were in trouble
Or if Exeter were last men standing
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For what my opinion is worth, it's easy for Baxter to make such comments when your club is sitting cosy financially because owner and sponsor are one and the same.
It would be interesting to hear his comments if Exeter were in trouble
Or if Exeter were last men standing
Exeter vs Cheats ad nauseum!!
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If the cheats were the last man standing then they would have to play with themselves.
Which is what many have been suggesting for some time.
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If the cheats were the last man standing then they would have to play with themselves.
Which is what many have been suggesting for some time.
;D
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I only saw snippets of what Baxter said.
It seemed that he said increasing the league to 13 teams was a ludicrously stupid idea.
That's something I think we can all agree on
Did he actually say he wanted a 10 team league, or did he say, when questioned, that a 10 team league would solve some player welfare issues but would bring other problems?
The bit I read made it appear as though he was asked his thoughts on whether a 10 team league would work and he was mostly non committal
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I think we risk descending into too much bitterness on this thread about other teams. For all of the references to Salarycens and Tigers, whilst I accept the arguments about Wage Inflation across the league, I don't believe they were significant enough to be a leading factor in our (financial) demise.
A re-think of how the professional league(s) are structured is what's needed and ideas to stimulated the long-term growth and financial health of the game.
For a while Clubs and PRL have driven towards a more is more plan; more teams in the league = more revenue = growth etc etc... what it's actually led to is higher operating costs. The prospect of a 10-team closed league isn't particularly attractive (even if we were to be part of that league) and I think there need to be two professional divisions - A bit like the Top14 - with promotion/relegation.
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Did he actually say he wanted a 10 team league
Read what Baxter said here, all seems very sensible & non controversial to me
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63233239 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63233239)
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In terms of the P share business there are 13 holders. We and Wuss are excluded = 11. Six team majority needed to strip. I can see Tigers, Sarries, Exeter, Bristol and Quins voting to remove quicker than you can say clique. But Falcons, Irish, Glaws are likely headed in the same direction as us so may vote against. That leaves Bath and Sale and Saints. If they do take the p shares someone has to find approx £20m. Ealing may want one. A ten team league, for me, would be excruciatingly dull (not that I’d be particularly following it anyway). I can’t help think if the p shares are taken it’s the equivalent turkeys voting for Christmas.
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A 25 minute BBC interview:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0d6hbmv
Mikey Burrows talks to:
Simon Gilbert (plonker reporter from the BBC)
Richard Moon
Rob Andrew
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In terms of the P share business there are 13 holders. We and Wuss are excluded = 11. Six team majority needed to strip. I can see Tigers, Sarries, Exeter, Bristol and Quins voting to remove quicker than you can say clique. But Falcons, Irish, Glaws are likely headed in the same direction as us so may vote against. That leaves Bath and Sale and Saints. If they do take the p shares someone has to find approx £20m. Ealing may want one. A ten team league, for me, would be excruciatingly dull (not that I’d be particularly following it anyway). I can’t help think if the p shares are taken it’s the equivalent turkeys voting for Christmas.
Is that gut feel Shugs - as I have nothing to go on re likely voting?
The reality ought to be dawning even on the RFU and PRL that the basis of a) England rugby and b) a pro league is in danger. Acknowledging that the RFU and PRL are bonkers - it surely must be that the reality is slowly penetrating their alternative universe.
I may be wrong (not a rarity!) but the RFU needs a decent England product to fill Twickenham and keep sponsors - that's not been the case last few 6Ns and whilst they might think there's an endless stream of punters willing to pay loads, that surely wanes if performances aren't great alongside a financial crisis.
So it's heads firmly in the sand if they'd let Worcester, Wasps and others to go to the wall?
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Its been reported that Warriors are appealing their suspension etc.
Given now Wasps & potentially others could follow, I would be very surprised if PRL & the RFU don't agree some kind of compromise.
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Yes, just my ramblings Mike909 - nothing more.
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Which part of the business holds the p share is it Wasps Holdings?
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In terms of the P share business there are 13 holders. We and Wuss are excluded = 11. Six team majority needed to strip. I can see Tigers, Sarries, Exeter, Bristol and Quins voting to remove quicker than you can say clique. But Falcons, Irish, Glaws are likely headed in the same direction as us so may vote against. That leaves Bath and Sale and Saints. If they do take the p shares someone has to find approx £20m. Ealing may want one. A ten team league, for me, would be excruciatingly dull (not that I’d be particularly following it anyway). I can’t help think if the p shares are taken it’s the equivalent turkeys voting for Christmas.
One of those first 5 you mention, one based oh so close to Coventry, are not in a stellar financial position either. Falcons and Glaws, yes. Not so sure about Irish. The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries. Exeter are suffering because their major source of finance is hurting a lot.
On another related topic. The training ground. I was out and about this morning and bumped in to someone who has a direct interest, who told me that the main contractor is still owed £300k, and the other contractors were also owed very large sums (for the pitch and all the indoor equipment). The same goes for the work done on the separate 'Academy House' next door. I wonder whether the owner of the site ordered and is on the hook for that money, or whether Wasps did a sneaky one and ordered the work in their name, with the benefit accruing to the site owner?
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The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries
Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....
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The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries
Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....
Not a particularly accurate guide as it lists Tigers, Saints, Exeter and Sarries as having no overall controlling individual owner which doesn't really tell the whole story. Of the rest, Lansdown (£1.3bn) and Craig (£249m) way out in front, with a certain Mr Richardson next in line at £60m net worth.
https://www.ruck.co.uk/all-13-premiership-club-owners-ranked-by-their-net-worth/2/
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Scratching around for anything that could be remotely positive - Michael van Vuuren on twitter seems to be indicating light at the end of the tunnel. Not sure if that’s personal or Wasps based.
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The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries
Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....
Oh yes ...
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The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries
Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....
The problem with having sugar daddies is that if they get bored you're in trouble if the underlying asset doesn't perform as as a stand alone financial asset.
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The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries
Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....
The problem with having sugar daddies is that if they get bored you're in trouble if the underlying asset doesn't perform as as a stand alone financial asset.
I know I'm stating the obvious, but professional sport doesn't work without sugar daddies.
Not just rugby, but sport in general
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The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries
Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....
The problem with having sugar daddies is that if they get bored you're in trouble if the underlying asset doesn't perform as as a stand alone financial asset.
Another problem is if they die. Mike Gooley, Ealing Trailfinders, is 86 and his descendants have no interest in rugby. So if they get into the Prem, then another financial disaster waiting to happen.
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Club rugby has to be self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.
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Another problem is if they die.
Wasn't that where Warriors problems started, when Cecil Duckworth died?
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Out of interest, does anyone know how the finances work in Ireland? The provincial sides as far as I know are not bankrolled by wealthy individuals. Ireland players are centrally contracted and their game time carefully managed, but who then pays for the overseas imports that contribute to the success of the provincial sides? What I'm seeing from the outside looking in is 4 successful provinces (OK, some more so than others, but even Connacht are no pushovers for anyone) and the number one ranked national team in the world, and all seemingly without over reaching themselves financially. Not bad for a population of little over 5m.
If Ireland can sustain 4 strong provincial sides without simply turning to a wealthy benefactor, then England with more than 10 times the population ought to be able to run a decent club league of a dozen teams on a similar basis.
Easy to say that it's just a product of the collective incompetence of the game's administrators in England, but what are Ireland getting so right that England are getting so spectacularly wrong, with a handful of clubs enjoying success funded by wealthy individuals while the rest are barely surviving (if at all) and the national team has largely hovered between poor and mediocre since 2003.
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Out of interest, does anyone know how the finances work in Ireland? The provincial sides as far as I know are not bankrolled by wealthy individuals. Ireland players are centrally contracted and their game time carefully managed, but who then pays for the overseas imports that contribute to the success of the provincial sides? What I'm seeing from the outside looking in is 4 successful provinces (OK, some more so than others, but even Connacht are no pushovers for anyone) and the number one ranked national team in the world, and all seemingly without over reaching themselves financially. Not bad for a population of little over 5m.
If Ireland can sustain 4 strong provincial sides without simply turning to a wealthy benefactor, then England with more than 10 times the population ought to be able to run a decent club league of a dozen teams on a similar basis.
Easy to say that it's just a product of the collective incompetence of the game's administrators in England, but what are Ireland getting so right that England are getting so spectacularly wrong, with a handful of clubs enjoying success funded by wealthy individuals while the rest are barely surviving (if at all) and the national team has largely hovered between poor and mediocre since 2003.
IRFU bankroll the provinces with major assistance from BoI. No celery cap.
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Club rugby has to be self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.
Which is all well and good, but when a club tries to do exactly that and is shut down for 2 years because of a pandemic they are pilloried for not having £100M in the bank.
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Mulling this over this morning, I can’t help thinking a lot of this could have been somewhat mitigated by a football transfer system. How much time, money and resources have we dedicated to bringing through academy stars and got absolutely nothing in return when they leave.
Football clubs consider it part of their business model to sell such players to balance the books. We’ve got nothing for the likes of Billy V, Daly, Cipriani etc. We’ve developed some superstars and had no return on investment. Imagine right now if we were able to sell Jack Willis and pay HMRC? Not great, he’d be missed and I know the finances are a lot more complex that that, but surely it would make more sense. It would also ensure bigger clubs were more inclusive in order to increase the development of new talent.
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But logically equates to those with the deepest pockets hoovering up all the talent like the sterile football premier league. You’d also have to pay fees and the likes of Koch etc wouldn’t be cheap.
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Club rugby has to be
self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.
Which is all well and good, but when a club tries to do exactly that and is shut down for 2 years because of a pandemic they are pilloried for not having £100M in the bank.
The more I think about that the more it seems insane that the “non cause clause” can’t be satisfied. The cash from govt was just loans so really just a bridging device. Diversifying income streams rather than being dependent on an individual is where all teams should try and get to. We did and, as you say, have suffered for it. Not that I imagine anyone with a semblance of power in the game will reflect on that - those funding their playthings with huge sacks of cash have too much influence for that to happen.
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Club rugby has to be
self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.
Which is all well and good, but when a club tries to do exactly that and is shut down for 2 years because of a pandemic they are pilloried for not having £100M in the bank.
The more I think about that the more it seems insane that the “non cause clause” can’t be satisfied. The cash from govt was just loans so really just a bridging device. Diversifying income streams rather than being dependent on an individual is where all teams should try and get to. We did and, as you say, have suffered for it. Not that I imagine anyone with a semblance of power in the game will reflect on that - those funding their playthings with huge sacks of cash have too much influence for that to happen.
Isn't that too simplistic.
Given the business model was reliant on cash generation to pay back/refinance all the money borrowed, you'd have to display that prior to covid, the model was in fact sound. The fact that financials markets have contracted due to economic pressure, I'm not sure that is a sellable narrative.
I believe covid fckd us in the shorter term..but I do wonder where the refinancing would have come from in the current climate regardless.
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Mulling this over this morning, I can’t help thinking a lot of this could have been somewhat mitigated by a football transfer system. How much time, money and resources have we dedicated to bringing through academy stars and got absolutely nothing in return when they leave.
Football clubs consider it part of their business model to sell such players to balance the books. We’ve got nothing for the likes of Billy V, Daly, Cipriani etc. We’ve developed some superstars and had no return on investment. Imagine right now if we were able to sell Jack Willis and pay HMRC? Not great, he’d be missed and I know the finances are a lot more complex that that, but surely it would make more sense. It would also ensure bigger clubs were more inclusive in order to increase the development of new talent.
I think that does exist in rugby... Just to a much lesser extent due to the economies involved in the game
In football, those with the money and the need will buy a player out of their contract. The transfer fee is whatever the 2 clubs agree on to negate the existing contract
In rugby, the same could happen, and I believe there have been a couple of examples a few years ago.
There was something funky involved when Johnny May moved mid contract.
I think there was also something with George North at one point.
And I also remember a prop at Saints, I think, who had to be bought out of a contract
However, as most clubs haven't got any money, and we have a salary cap it's incredibly rare.
Also, given the minimal financial awards for winning the league or domestic cup competition in rugby, who would pay a significant sum of money for an additional player?
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Club rugby has to be
self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.
Which is all well and good, but when a club tries to do exactly that and is shut down for 2 years because of a pandemic they are pilloried for not having £100M in the bank.
The more I think about that the more it seems insane that the “non cause clause” can’t be satisfied. The cash from govt was just loans so really just a bridging device. Diversifying income streams rather than being dependent on an individual is where all teams should try and get to. We did and, as you say, have suffered for it. Not that I imagine anyone with a semblance of power in the game will reflect on that - those funding their playthings with huge sacks of cash have too much influence for that to happen.
Isn't that too simplistic.
Given the business model was reliant on cash generation to pay back/refinance all the money borrowed, you'd have to display that prior to covid, the model was in fact sound. The fact that financials markets have contracted due to economic pressure, I'm not sure that is a sellable narrative.
I believe covid fckd us in the shorter term..but I do wonder where the refinancing would have come from in the current climate regardless.
Yes, completely fair point. Unfortunately the initial debt was too high. In terms of the clause it will depend on what the authorities really want to do. If they want a 10 team league it will be lip service. If they want “an out” to keep it at 12-13 they’ll accept it.
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Mulling this over this morning, I can’t help thinking a lot of this could have been somewhat mitigated by a football transfer system. How much time, money and resources have we dedicated to bringing through academy stars and got absolutely nothing in return when they leave.
Football clubs consider it part of their business model to sell such players to balance the books. We’ve got nothing for the likes of Billy V, Daly, Cipriani etc. We’ve developed some superstars and had no return on investment. Imagine right now if we were able to sell Jack Willis and pay HMRC? Not great, he’d be missed and I know the finances are a lot more complex that that, but surely it would make more sense. It would also ensure bigger clubs were more inclusive in order to increase the development of new talent.
I think that does exist in rugby... Just to a much lesser extent due to the economies involved in the game
In football, those with the money and the need will buy a player out of their contract. The transfer fee is whatever the 2 clubs agree on to negate the existing contract
In rugby, the same could happen, and I believe there have been a couple of examples a few years ago.
There was something funky involved when Johnny May moved mid contract.
I think there was also something with George North at one point.
And I also remember a prop at Saints, I think, who had to be bought out of a contract
However, as most clubs haven't got any money, and we have a salary cap it's incredibly rare.
Also, given the minimal financial awards for winning the league or domestic cup competition in rugby, who would pay a significant sum of money for an additional player?
I can think of a certain club that would find a way to do it (and get away with it)..
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Club rugby has to be
self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.
Which is all well and good, but when a club tries to do exactly that and is shut down for 2 years because of a pandemic they are pilloried for not having £100M in the bank.
The more I think about that the more it seems insane that the “non cause clause” can’t be satisfied. The cash from govt was just loans so really just a bridging device. Diversifying income streams rather than being dependent on an individual is where all teams should try and get to. We did and, as you say, have suffered for it. Not that I imagine anyone with a semblance of power in the game will reflect on that - those funding their playthings with huge sacks of cash have too much influence for that to happen.
Isn't that too simplistic.
Given the business model was reliant on cash generation to pay back/refinance all the money borrowed, you'd have to display that prior to covid, the model was in fact sound. The fact that financials markets have contracted due to economic pressure, I'm not sure that is a sellable narrative.
I believe covid fckd us in the shorter term..but I do wonder where the refinancing would have come from in the current climate regardless.
Yes, completely fair point. Unfortunately the initial debt was too high. In terms of the clause it will depend on what the authorities really want to do. If they want a 10 team league it will be lip service. If they want “an out” to keep it at 12-13 they’ll accept it.
If they DO accept it and let Worcester and Wasps stay, after going through pain and punishment and a long drawn out process to make sure the other teams get to ransack the squads, they will then face an onslaught from the other sides that are so desperate to dump their debt. It will not look good to the outside world. In a position of their own making they are, but the RFU lose both ways. If they do force Wasps and Worcester to lose their squads and do relegate them, it will signal a long and tragic end to the way English Rugby is currently organised.
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Well we’re actively headed to that scenario already. Reform has to follow this whatever happens. It’s a fine balance for the other teams. Take your point about the other teams jettisoning their debt but they also need a competitive and interesting league. It would feel a bit uncomfortable if we were allowed to do it - even though it’s legal. In the round ball game Leicester did a similar thing and some years later won the title - pisses on the chips of those that manage their finances carefully.
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If they DO accept it and let Worcester and Wasps stay, after going through pain and punishment and a long drawn out process to make sure the other teams get to ransack the squads, they will then face an onslaught from the other sides that are so desperate to dump their debt. It will not look good to the outside world. In a position of their own making they are, but the RFU lose both ways. If they do force Wasps and Worcester to lose their squads and do relegate them, it will signal a long and tragic end to the way English Rugby is currently organised.
So are we suggesting that unless reality is faced up to, English rugby is either going to have a big problem in the short term if it tries to make the impossible work, or a long decline that ends up at the same place?
I'm not for one moment suggesting that I have an idea of what needs to happen, but is does seem that Wales, Scotland and Ireland faced up to their reality - financially - and at least have a plan/strategy. Whereas it seems that England thought itself "beyond all that" and didn't need to have a grip of club finances. (Might have phrased that poorly) as the pro game was in "rude health" - at least in their minds....
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If you're centrally funded by the RFU, how much better for the game is that?
You're still not a financially viable business, and you lose a lot of the autonomy of your own club so that an organisation can cover some of your costs and move your best players to other cou be a if they feel it necessary. How much better is that really than an individual businessman who may actually have an affinity for the club?
My fear is financial issues on top of potential law suits for concussions etc. and repeated tinkering with the laws starts to see the game actually shrink rather than grow.
In 10 years we could really be discussing the end of the game, rather than the end of some clubs
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If they DO accept it and let Worcester and Wasps stay, after going through pain and punishment and a long drawn out process to make sure the other teams get to ransack the squads, they will then face an onslaught from the other sides that are so desperate to dump their debt. It will not look good to the outside world. In a position of their own making they are, but the RFU lose both ways. If they do force Wasps and Worcester to lose their squads and do relegate them, it will signal a long and tragic end to the way English Rugby is currently organised.
So are we suggesting that unless reality is faced up to, English rugby is either going to have a big problem in the short term if it tries to make the impossible work, or a long decline that ends up at the same place?
I'm not for one moment suggesting that I have an idea of what needs to happen, but is does seem that Wales, Scotland and Ireland faced up to their reality - financially - and at least have a plan/strategy. Whereas it seems that England thought itself "beyond all that" and didn't need to have a grip of club finances. (Might have phrased that poorly) as the pro game was in "rude health" - at least in their minds....
Bang on.
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If they DO accept it and let Worcester and Wasps stay, after going through pain and punishment and a long drawn out process to make sure the other teams get to ransack the squads, they will then face an onslaught from the other sides that are so desperate to dump their debt. It will not look good to the outside world. In a position of their own making they are, but the RFU lose both ways. If they do force Wasps and Worcester to lose their squads and do relegate them, it will signal a long and tragic end to the way English Rugby is currently organised.
So are we suggesting that unless reality is faced up to, English rugby is either going to have a big problem in the short term if it tries to make the impossible work, or a long decline that ends up at the same place?
I'm not for one moment suggesting that I have an idea of what needs to happen, but is does seem that Wales, Scotland and Ireland faced up to their reality - financially - and at least have a plan/strategy. Whereas it seems that England thought itself "beyond all that" and didn't need to have a grip of club finances. (Might have phrased that poorly) as the pro game was in "rude health" - at least in their minds....
Bang on.
So..PRL will have a decision to make (if we &/or Worc got backing), whether it's viable for the long term futre of the game to remove 2 clubs from and existing pool that on the face of it, could go from 11 to 9 or even 8 at the drop of a hat if the media are correct. I hope that they play the numbers game and choose to retain more given the risk of loving more so as to actually maintain some sort of league at all...at this rate, they might have to join the URC...can you imagine that!
It's all hope and guesswork at this point.
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There's an awful lot of poacher turned gamekeeper about to happen.
I can think of 3 clubs.
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I'm just gutted. Been flagging this for years with our incredible £10m annual losses since 2014, been shot down every time. Gives me no pleasure to say it's been coming a long time.
I'm not sure if we are still banned from saying anything negative abut Wasps, but if I am banned it doesn't matter now anyway.
My point is I am amazed no-one here is angry with the useless incompetant Wasps board who has presided over this debacle, Eastwood Vaughan and Richardson in particular.
They have watched the disaster unfurl. £60M losses in 6 years. Waited until we hit the buffers and screwed the bond holders and loyal suppliers, with no plan B in 7 years of clear sight Coventry did and could not work.
Lied to people - quote Richardson recent statement
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-owner-derek-richardson-breaks-24747475
So 160 years of history thrown under the bus. Yes we were going under in 2014, but all we have done is extend the pain whilst ruining our reputation with the financial community and rugby community, and taken money from good people with false promises - virtually nothing in the 2014 bond prospectus came to fruition
I was interested to see what hey had to say tonight, but the Wasps website is down
It's not over, possible we can rise but not with the current 3 bids I am aware of. All three want the stadium and not the rugby club, even Armstrongs backers are venture capitalists who will be out for a fast buck
For me if we can find a proper rugby backer soon, who can honour the debts to the bondholders, sell the stadium and retain some staff and players, then get us back to within the M25 or near as hell, we can get back into premiership rugby with a future. And an 18,000 capacity stadium
Apart from disagreeing with almost every word you wrote...a couple of things.
Your claiming foresight of which almost every rugby support already knows, they all run at huge losses, so you're foresight isn't unique as much as you claim it to be.
I am not sure we'd be here if Covid hadn't gutted our financial model for 2 years, not just in in-flow but decemated in out-flow..
Related to the taking money from good people - purchasing a staggering 6.5% return bond is no different to buying ultra high risk stocks. If you know anything about finance, you'll know what I am saying.
Agreed 100%. I don't think the statement is lying that the businesses are viable in the long-term.
This is the man who boldly stated Lima Sopoaga would be Wasps all time great player. Always gets it right like this new one.
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Let’s be clear - there’s still a huge amount to happen here. We don’t know if we’ll be relegated or lose our P share. Once the emphasis shifted from financing the debt to seeking a takeover that was always going to happen in administration. People with the sort of money to buy the level of assets in the mix don’t get that much of it by spaffing it up the wall on a regular basis when they don’t have to. So now we’ll see if any of them are serious. There’s a huge mix of alternatives with Wasps the rugby entity not being of standout appeal but we don’t know. There is a huge amount to happen in this yet.
On the other site we call this gent the Dark Knight. Just a flesh wound this is.
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Happy to debate with you Kent. So, do you think there is not lots to happen then? There’s a huge amount. I didn’t say it would all be positive - just that lots has to be decided. In the history of the club it may be a flesh wound. It may be fatal. You don’t know and neither do I. But it’s always easier just to predict failure - especially in sport - as invariably you’ll be right more than you are wrong.
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If the court session is on Monday, would we expect announcement of a deal before then?
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If the court session is on Monday, would we expect announcement of a deal before then?
No. A deal can only be 'made' after the Court appoints an Administrator. It can be prepared before then. It may already be prepared. It is preferable to have the deal prepared, agreed and ready to sign before the Court hearing.
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Sussex Wasp, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by making personal digs at people.
A lot of people are hurting right now, if you want to start an online fight about it I am not the person, and this is not the place.
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Let’s be clear - there’s still a huge amount to happen here. We don’t know if we’ll be relegated or lose our P share. Once the emphasis shifted from financing the debt to seeking a takeover that was always going to happen in administration. People with the sort of money to buy the level of assets in the mix don’t get that much of it by spaffing it up the wall on a regular basis when they don’t have to. So now we’ll see if any of them are serious. There’s a huge mix of alternatives with Wasps the rugby entity not being of standout appeal but we don’t know. There is a huge amount to happen in this yet.
On the other site we call this gent the Dark Knight. Just a flesh wound this is.
That would be Batman, I think your reference is meant to be to the Black Knight. So the whole other site is Python ignorant?😀
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So, the Court case is on Monday. RFU seem to have confirmed that as soon as we enter administration, we will be relegated. They also seem to be confirming that the Covid clause will not be allowed, for us or Worcester.
It would appear that they are also prepared to a 10 team PRL top tier, and maybe a 10 team second team.
I doubt 10 teams will survive. With Wasps and Warriors gone, that leaves only 11. Expect three more to go.
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No, but think everyone like the idea of Shugs being Batman, so nobody corrected it!
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So, the Court case is on Monday. RFU seem to have confirmed that as soon as we enter administration, we will be relegated. They also seem to be confirming that the Covid clause will not be allowed, for us or Worcester.
It would appear that they are also prepared to a 10 team PRL top tier, and maybe a 10 team second team.
I doubt 10 teams will survive. With Wasps and Warriors gone, that leaves only 11. Expect three more to go.
On what basis? Is it a case that as there become fewer games they take less money, so it becomes increasingly harder for those on the edge?
From our selfish point of view is it best for several clubs to go, thus requiring a bailout to come into play. At the moment it will be an eleven team league. If 3 went it would be 8, would they then try and resurrect those fallen clubs in some way if they wanted a ten team league?
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Amongst the commentators who are in the "no special treatment" for Wasps or indeed Worcester, there seems to be a confidence, not built on evidence, that there would be a viable pro rugby business in England. I suggest no evidence as if PRL and the RFU have no visibility on club finances, then who would?
Firstly, the RFU/PRL need to decide - backed by commercial data that clubs need to provide - if there is a viable Premier Rugby and how big that might be. I get the impression the "10 team league" is being tossed about but no one seems to have come up with it prior to the problems here and at Worc and without view of Premier finances. The Guardian article was one such speculative "story"
Secondly, if the conclusion that would be expected when faced by the loss of us and Worc, and potential of at least 3 more clubs in dire straits, is that there isn't a viable rugby union league in England, without top ups from the centre, then they need to take a very wide look at the England Rugby (so to speak) business model and associated financial risks.
If this is the case - then someone is going to need to have the courage to say that this is the case. That England Rugby via income from internationals and sponsorship and TV and projected income from a league (income as in contribution to overheads rather than profit re a "league") might be able to support "x" number of clubs.
If they, instead, look towards the "tossed around" idea of a 10 team league (who's going to be sacrificed?) then that ought not mean such a review of England Rugby and its financial position should be shelved. Unless that happens then the RFU and PRL are "hoping for the best" which is no one's idea of a business plan. Least not a sane plan...
FWIW - (prob not much!) I do think that it would be good for the RFU/PRL to stop Wasps/Worcs going under before such a review. Pro rugby has a lowish visibility. Losing teams will make that worse and whilst there seems to be endless people willing to pay to support England, that's not been exploited to get those people and TV viewers to real games. And that stream of people is probably supported by a successful England, supported by a Pro structure.....I can see a problem there, with a shrinking Pro game....
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If, as Gloucester have said, the cost of losing a home game is £350,000 and a P Share brings in £4m a year, then by removing the P Share from us and Worcester, after lost revenue is taken out of the equation, the clubs are selling us out for £27,272.23 extra a season. The issue then is who will invest in a league where financial difficulty could result in your club being stabbed in the back?
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If, as Gloucester have said, the cost of losing a home game is £350,000 and a P Share brings in £4m a year, then by removing the P Share from us and Worcester, after lost revenue is taken out of the equation, the clubs are selling us out for £27,272.23 extra a season. The issue then is who will invest in a league where financial difficulty could result in your club being stabbed in the back?
I assume any future CVC money will go only to "the 10".
Also you do wonder what CVC are thinking as co-owners of the brand.
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No, but think everyone like the idea of Shugs being Batman, so nobody corrected it!
I have no idea who either character is. Thought I must have mentioned the clocks were going back or something. :)
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No, but think everyone like the idea of Shugs being Batman, so nobody corrected it!
I have no idea who either character is. Thought I must have mentioned the clocks were going back or something. :)
Two weeks away.
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I can see some merits to a 10 team league.
Players would be playing less games which is good for player welfare.
Rob Baxter said that attendances may increase for those 10 home games simply due to there being less of them. If this is the case, then it presumably ensures that each home game is more profitable
But, if a club has players who will now play 18 league games per season rather than 22, will they be expecting to reduce salaries by ~18%?
Some players previously said they'd consider a pay cut for fewer games, but would they when it becomes a reality?
Will there be less TV money and sponsorship money if clubs only have 9 home games rather than 11?
And on Baxter's point about increased attendances, will more people really turn up to each home game just because there's less of them per year?
The hardcore fans will go to every home game they can regardless of whether there's 9 or 11. Other fans typically pick and choose based on the opposition and other commitments, I'm not convinced that Exeter playing against Newcastle will get a significantly higher gate just because there's 9 home games in a season
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I agree with Mike, this looks like a hasty and ill thought through solution to a serious problem.
I can see the advantage of a 10 team league to DoRs and for player welfare. Fewer games, if any, during the international windows, maybe less need for rotation and smaller squads.
Commercially it lacks a lot thought. How much would TV companies pay for a 10 team league with no relegation? BT made their anger quite clear when relegation was scrapped last season. Also. with no or only a few games in the international windows the argument for the play-offs falls away. Why should the top of the league risk not being champions and claiming the prize money?
How many clubs will be allowed to play in the European Cup if the league is only 10 teams? I find it hard to believe that other countries will be happy with 8 or even 6.
I can see 2 x 10 team leagues with 2 teams being relegated/promoted being more interesting to the TV companies, but the reason for the 10 team league is to protect the 10 founders' financial interests, so they aren't going to like that idea.
Its a mess, it might be a longer term solution but it isn't a solution to the current problems.
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I can't see that a ten-team league will generate more income unless you either get more bums on seats, cut your costs or increase telly revenue.
Regular fans will remain regular fans. Comparing ten teams to twelve, you will have to generate two games' worth of extra profit in the ten remaining home games just to stand still. And standing still is, for many clubs, loss-making. Where will the extra fans come from?
I don't need to use Excel to work out that this is insanely and unrealistically over-optimistic.
Reduce costs or increase revenue. It just so happens that 37 years ago today I started my accountancy training. In that time nothing has changed that formula for profit.
It may well be a short career for players. Yes, it's hard, and there is a risk of life-changing injury. But paying players more than their efforts bring in is madness.
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I can't see that a ten-team league will generate more income unless you either get more bums on seats, cut your costs or increase telly revenue.
Regular fans will remain regular fans. Comparing ten teams to twelve, you will have to generate two games' worth of extra profit in the ten remaining home games just to stand still. And standing still is, for many clubs, loss-making. Where will the extra fans come from?
I don't need to use Excel to work out that this is insanely and unrealistically over-optimistic.
Reduce costs or increase revenue. It just so happens that 37 years ago today I started my accountancy training. In that time nothing has changed that formula for profit.
It may well be a short career for players. Yes, it's hard, and there is a risk of life-changing injury. But paying players more than their efforts bring in is madness.
I suspect this is being driven by a few things. Firstly that the powers that be assume that the rugby fans of the teams that go under will simply switch to new teams. My personal feeling is that if Wasps go then I'm not going to follow domestic rugby. I'm certainly not going to follow any specific team.
Secondly if we take the wasps statements at face value - and I see no reason not to - then the issue was cashflow. We did not have cash to hand to carry on. Whatever the reason the long term plan became immaterial once we couldn't pay for the next few weeks. Wasps and Worcester being removed from the competition may well have killed the cheetahs. They were expecting £700k through the tills in the next few weeks and now won't be getting it. They will have to find a way to work around that. And if they don't then who is next?
Thirdly it is always easier to tell yourself it was simply down to bad management and won't happen to them, but I think it is rapidly becoming clear that unless you have 100s of millions and are classed as a "proper rugby gent", or indeed have billions and are willing to throw a few million away every year or two, then your opinion and future doesn't matter. One wrong step and you will be left behind.
It's pretty clear that we are not all in this together, and that those remaining are circling the wagons.
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So just nine teams competing to be runners up to the Cheats instead - how exciting. At least it will save me a BT Sports subscription. Like VV, I won’t be following the domestic game very closely if that’s the deal.
I think Baxter would be wise to remember where Chiefs came from before circling the wagons and counting the dosh.
A competition that has allowed the biggest modern British sporting cheating scandal with minimal punishment, and and now allows two clubs to go to the wall - one (with all due respect to Wuss) being of the greatest names of the professional era, and producer of many England internationals, doesn’t deserve much respect. I fear the pro game in England is rotten.
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This week I asked a CEO of a Premier club how they’d cope with the rumoured ten team league and he spluttered about adding “a more meaningful cup competition”.
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Slight puzzlement. Are the brickheads at RFC/RFL presuming that all those supporters who can't go to a Wasps or Wuss match will immediately switch allegiance to another club and will go to watch those clubs and swell that club's numbers? If so the brickheads have a shock coming. For us it is OAWAAW. End of.
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VV, I'm uncertain that the "powers that be" have made any assumptions that are anything other than wishful thinking, over a pink gin at the club. That they surely have nothing else to go on other than wishful thinking ought to worry all rugby fans. And if fans from the clubs "circling the wagons " think this doesn't concern them, then they are indulging in Ostrich behaviour.
I'd prefer to go to watch Cardiff. On my train route. I've married into a Welsh family so not so hard!
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So, the Court case is on Monday. RFU seem to have confirmed that as soon as we enter administration, we will be relegated. They also seem to be confirming that the Covid clause will not be allowed, for us or Worcester.
It would appear that they are also prepared to a 10 team PRL top tier, and maybe a 10 team second team.
I doubt 10 teams will survive. With Wasps and Warriors gone, that leaves only 11. Expect three more to go.
On what basis? Is it a case that as there become fewer games they take less money, so it becomes increasingly harder for those on the edge?
From our selfish point of view is it best for several clubs to go, thus requiring a bailout to come into play. At the moment it will be an eleven team league. If 3 went it would be 8, would they then try and resurrect those fallen clubs in some way if they wanted a ten team league?
As you peel away teams to get down to whatever you think is viable, revenues decline. Sponsorship declines because the number of times the brand is seen declines. You lose TV viewership, already BT must be seriously considering pulling out, and the revenue paid by the broadcaster.
With only 8, or 10 pro teams, most schools will switch to soccer, for those students who want to have the possibility of income from sport.
Each club is losing enough money per year that it is equivalent to half (or more) of the player wage bill.
The fact is, it isn't viable at ANY number of teams in the league, thus only clubs with uber rich owners will survive. I can see us with maybe four clubs remaining, playing in some sort of Euro league.
The way the RFU and PRL are handling this (i.e. not at all), this is going to be a drip, drip, drip of clubs being served Winding Up orders by HMRC.
Some of the other club owners want this? Fine, let them have it. It will be worthless. It is like children fighting for the sole ownership of a Monopoly board. Once the other children refuse to play, finding better things to do, the sole owner is left sitting as Billy No Mates.
Right now, I can see Wasps converting the training ground to become the new club location, whack up a simple stand and clubhouse, job done. There is room there for maybe 4 or 5 pitches, but they would need a car park.
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I must confess I will still watch some domestic games live on TV. I don't have a sub to BT or Sky Sports but I do pay to stream all Prem games. My sub costs about US$10/month and I have always considered it a bargain. I might watch Sale v Irish tonight, Glaws v Bristol tomorrow and Quins v Tiggs on Sunday.
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A ten team league fixes some problems, but raises others. It is significant that the ProD2 in France has been a breeding ground for players now in the National team. 2 strong leagues with around 30 fully pro teams, English rugby can't replicate what France is doing but it needs to take notice of it.
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As a member of Edinburgh Rugby I know where my "fix" if I need it will come from. Even got Ben Vellacott to cheer on. Premier cover Racing so got Wadey for another month or so.
As far as BT are concerned after Monday if it is confirmed I will be saving myself sufficient to buy any single matches I want. European Rugby cover their own as well so that will be an avenue for anything I might want.
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This week I asked a CEO of a Premier club how they’d cope with the rumoured ten team league and he spluttered about adding “a more meaningful cup competition”.
So no benefits to players then?
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After a suitable period of mourning I will watch rugby in the telly because I luke rugby, but going to Prem games? Where?
I don't live that far from Copthall Stadium (I don't care about sponsors' names, it was Copthall when I was at school and it will remain Copthall). On what planet am I likely to think "oh well, Wasps have gone, la-di-da, I'll watch £aracens from now on"?
There are people running the game whose heads are so far up their own backsides they could join the circus as a contortionist.
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I'd prefer to go to watch Cardiff. On my train route. I've married into a Welsh family so not so hard!
I still miss Dai.
I'm more likely to follow Dai than I am any other premiership club
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I'd prefer to go to watch Cardiff. On my train route. I've married into a Welsh family so not so hard!
I still miss Dai.
I'm more likely to follow Dai than I am any other premiership club
+1
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If Wasps survive, that will make me very happy, and I will continue to support Wasps (wherever they end up).
If Wasps don't survive, might be drastic, but I think that will be me done with professional rugby in England (and that includes the national team) as well as my BT Sport subscription. I'll put more time and effort into my local club - I play my rugby there as well so it will be easy enough.
If I do follow another professional team, I could possibly claim connection to Leinster as the wife has a strong family Irish (Dublin) connection, but I know it just won't feel the same.
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I’ve yet to work out how a 10 team league stands a chance. My gut feel is that a large chunk of costs are fixed in the short to medium term. Other than saving a few quid from running stadia for 3 fewer games, I doubt this will do much to offset the c£1m of lost revenue — that’s assuming they don’t lose even more revenue when sponsors and BT sports pull out for breach of contract, or at least use it as leverage to renegotiate more favourable terms.
Looks to me like 4 George IIIs — Four King Lunacy. Has someone from Downing Street been doing their sums?
Talking of Downing Street, I do wonder how much of a role that their detonation of the markets has added to our struggles (and that of other clubs). It can’t be easy trying to negotiate rescue packages when markets are riddled with uncertainty, values tanking and interest rates soaring.
Take Tiggers — if they’re going to lose £700k and go 7 weeks without generating home game revenue, they’ll likely have to extend their working capital facility. Wonder what that’s going to cost now? Surely there has to be a Rugby Club premium now on top of the Truss premium.
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Pretty straightforward forward for me. If Wasps survive I’ll follow them irrespective of league or destination. If they don’t I’ll have a passing interest in the top level game but won’t be parting with any cash to watch it live or on TV.
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Pretty straightforward forward for me. If Wasps survive I’ll follow them irrespective of league or destination. If they don’t I’ll have a passing interest in the top level game but won’t be parting with any cash to watch it live or on TV.
Totally
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plus 1
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Pretty straightforward forward for me. If Wasps survive I’ll follow them irrespective of league or destination. If they don’t I’ll have a passing interest in the top level game but won’t be parting with any cash to watch it live or on TV.
Plus 1, if Wasps pull this off then we will still and go watch them wherever. The wife and I usually on a Friday evening look forward to a live game on TV no matter who it was, but this week is different, and won't be watching tonight, does not seem right.
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I must confess I will still watch some domestic games live on TV. I don't have a sub to BT or Sky Sports but I do pay to stream all Prem games. My sub costs about US$10/month and I have always considered it a bargain. I might watch Sale v Irish tonight, Glaws v Bristol tomorrow and Quins v Tiggs on Sunday.
I've been giving it a lot of thought. I'm not sure I can bring myself to watch any games this weekend, in part because there will be a lot of ill informed talk about our situation. As to the longer term if Wasp don't survive ....
I was a rugby fan for a long time before I got emotionally invested in Wasps (see introductions thread, its in there somewhere). I had no favourites basing my watching on which teams were playing well.
I'm not sure I'll be able to watch any Prem games without there being some part of me thinking about what happened. I certainly couldn't become a fan of any other team. The closes is Exeter, but much as I admire what they have achieved I can't find anything in them that would make me fan.
Bath next. It would be a good team to support logistically. There's a motorhome site I could use if I wanted to go and have a few beers and even a Bath supported in the village who doesn't go because nobody to share the drive with, but he's moving away soon. My biggest objection would be the ground, I've been twice and neither were pleasant experiences. I didn't even like the vibes in the town pre and post match.
At a stretch I could get to Quins, certainly a lot easier that the CBS or even Sandy Park. There's even an areas on the Thames I can park overnight for free. But much as I admire the current style and I enjoyed my one and only visit to the stadium there's still something missing I can't put my finger on. Possibly a bit of arrogance, not quite Cheats level but just enough to question whether I want to be part of it.
If there was a way I could regularly watch French rugby with English commentary I think I'd sign up. I could go back to just watching and enjoying the game without any emotional baggage .
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Premier TV cover French Top 14. Most weeks there are a few live matches plus extensive highlights over the week. They also cover the URC (with Dai's Cardiff) showing every match live (better than BT).
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And if fans from the clubs "circling the wagons " think this doesn't concern them, then they are indulging in Ostrich behaviour.
That's easy to say now, but until earlier this week that was the majority of Wasps fans who knew things were tough, but not imminent disaster tough.
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And if fans from the clubs "circling the wagons " think this doesn't concern them, then they are indulging in Ostrich behaviour.
That's easy to say now, but until earlier this week that was the majority of Wasps fans who knew things were tough, but not imminent disaster tough.
It may be what some said on here but at the ground on Sunday it was very realistic with many saying goodbye.
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VV, I'm uncertain that the "powers that be" have made any assumptions that are anything other than wishful thinking, over a pink gin at the club. That they surely have nothing else to go on other than wishful thinking ought to worry all rugby fans. And if fans from the clubs "circling the wagons " think this doesn't concern them, then they are indulging in Ostrich behaviour.
I'd prefer to go to watch Cardiff. On my train route. I've married into a Welsh family so not so hard!
I will probably just watch a bit of Cardiff on TV with the wife, maybe the odd in person game. Cardiff are actually as bad at the lineout as we are and implode as frequently.
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Coming out of the anaesthetic from my op, I had two dreams:
1 that my 2nd Total Knee Replacement op this year would be as successful as the first, and
2 that 🐝 future would have been successfully assured.
Well the first dream is going to plan, just hope we’ll get some good news on the 2nd this week.
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If the unthinkable happens I will dedicate myself to a life of irony and support the Saracens... my life will be committed to the true mercenary spirit of that debased and ignoble club... or maybe I'll just keep watching Ozzie rules instead. Love the D's.
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or maybe I'll just keep watching Ozzie rules instead. Love the D's.
Someone has to!
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Just noticed this, not sure if it’s been posted elsewhere
BBC Coventry and Warwickshire has reported that Labour councillors on Coventry City Council have been called to an emergency meeting tonight where it’s understood they will be asked to vote on signing off a financial support package to help Wasps stave off administration.
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Fantastic news and a good decision by the Council. Hopefully get this sorted and we’ll be back on the pitch soon. OAWAAW
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Slight puzzlement. Are the brickheads at RFC/RFL presuming that all those supporters who can't go to a Wasps or Wuss match will immediately switch allegiance to another club and will go to watch those clubs and swell that club's numbers?
I don't think that's the case (at least, not IMO). Personally, I think one of the blockers to more casual fans attending games is lack of certainty around the big names playing. With 10-team divisions with breaks around the international period, it takes some of the uncertainty away. If the internationals are fit, they'll almost certainly be playing and I think that will attract those fans to attend.
It's a long-term game, as I went from casual fan > STH over a period of 5-6 years or so and tended to go and watch a mixture of Saracens, Irish, Quins and Wasps depending who they were playing (i.e. Irish v Falcons to see Jonny play).
Going to a closed 10-Team Premiership would be incredibly short-sighted even if the Clubs were keen short-term to accrue greater portions of TV revenues and incomes via their shareholdings. It doesn't really solve the problem of how to make Professional Rugby sustainable in the long-term.
My own view (aired previously) is that longer-term there's the ability to run 2x divisions of 10 Teams. So we ultimately grow professional rugby to 20 teams with promotion/relegation. But to do that, I think we'd have to shrink to grow. By shrink I mean:
- Fewer games to reduce operating costs
- Reduced salary cap again to reduce operating costs (Say £4m/£4.5m and keeping the same academy/homegrown/marquee add-ons)
- Reduced First-Team Squad sizes due to fewer games needing to play and league games not being played during internationals. The likelihood is that talent would disperse amongst teams in the second division
I would wager that most STH would be open to paying the same for 9 home games as they do for 12 they currently do especially as based on the (small sample size) group around where I sit often missing 2-3 league games throughout the season due to Family Events, Holidays, going to Internationals.
That doesn't really cover how income should be split via PRL Shareholders, as I doubt any team is up for diluting that income from being split between 20 teams from 13.
Although I do wonder what the maths look like - If anyone can surface the actual figures i'd be interested to learn more.
For example (out of date figures), the funding from the RFU under the professional game agreement (PGA) was £112m for the first 4 years (2016-2020), the second 4 years through to 2024 was a variable figure based on the RFUs finances.
Taking the first 4 years, if the funding was split equally between the 13 shareholding teams that's £28m per year split 13 ways = £2.15m per year. Split 20 ways it would be £1.4m. It's a fairly big gap.
However, if, CVC take a third of that under their shareholding of PRL that would leave £18.76m being split over those first 4 years. Split 13 ways = £1.44m, split 20 ways = £0.94m. That gap narrows somewhat.
I wouldn't be surprised to see broadly similar attendance figures across 9 home games as 12 with internationals playing and suspect the finances would look a lot better balanced.
European Cups remain the same and add in a proper academy/a-league cup to be played during the international period. I'd like to see a competitive domestic cup, with each round a knock-out, but think we quickly run into fixture congestion.
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I don't think that's the case (at least, not IMO). Personally, I think one of the blockers to more casual fans attending games is lack of certainty around the big names playing. With 10-team divisions with breaks around the international period, it takes some of the uncertainty away. If the internationals are fit, they'll almost certainly be playing and I think that will attract those fans to attend.
I've been saying for years that the simplest and easiest way round this is to make more players household names. No-one checks the local rugby team's website when they wake up every morning, but 1000s of people check Instagram, and TikTok.
Get players active on social instead of encouraging them to stay away because they might hear something bad. Make it so people know who they are and then people will come see them play. It's not exactly rocket science.
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I've been saying for years that the simplest and easiest way round this is to make more players household names. No-one checks the local rugby team's website when they wake up every morning, but 1000s of people check Instagram, and TikTok.
Get players active on social instead of encouraging them to stay away because they might hear something bad. Make it so people know who they are and then people will come see them play. It's not exactly rocket science.
Agreed. Their amplification of news and advertising of games, updates etc... is significant compared to the standalone Wasps Rugby social media (same for all teams, really).
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If the sport can't sustain 13 pro teams, how could it support two leagues of 10?
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Premier TV cover French Top 14. Most weeks there are a few live matches plus extensive highlights over the week. They also cover the URC (with Dai's Cardiff) showing every match live (better than BT).
You've mentioned them a few times but I've never bothered to look because I have BT and I've been able to watch enough games at weekends and with PRTV available all Wasps games.
If we do go under I'll be cancelling BT and telling them why and will not be supporting PRTV for the same reason.
Having now had a look at the website you're right, that's the way to go if it gets to the stage of canning BT.
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Still would like to see games in the flesh , so would look at going to nearest/easiest to get to championship side. Would also toy with looking at premier tv purely to follow La Rochelle - at least they play in the right colours!
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I've always quite enjoyed watching Guildford play. There is free parking and a decent coffee van and you can watch from the sidelines. Admittedly they're pretty terrible, but still better than Sarries.
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If the sport can't sustain 13 pro teams, how could it support two leagues of 10?
Can't sustain in its current format. There's no immediate increase in revenues coming - Attendances aren't going to suddenly swell, nor are TV deals going up. So the only option is to reduce costs in line with revenues; fewer games and a reduced cap.
If you can bring costs down in line with revenues, then you have sustainable clubs. It doesn't necessarily rely on crowd growth to work - although I think as a result of fewer games with more predictability of internationals playing you'll see a steady increase in matchday attendance.
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Coming out of the anaesthetic from my op, I had two dreams:
1 that my 2nd Total Knee Replacement op this year would be as successful as the first, and
2 that 🐝 future would have been successfully assured.
Well the first dream is going to plan, just hope we’ll get some good news on the 2nd this week.
Wow! Am I still under the influence of the anaesthetic? Or is Dream 2 inching closer?
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Unfortunately Ritb I don't think so! But I do hope your knee is better very soon.
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Pudsey tweet “Trust the process” with a copy of the Wasps badge.
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Pudsey tweet “Trust the process” with a copy of the Wasps badge.
Yes a strange one.
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I just had a "match starting soon" alert on my phone.
That was quite depressing