Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Neils on January 30, 2023, 11:45:19 AM
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A brief exchange with
@BegbiesTrnGroup
Julie Palmer this morning confirmed that news could be with us 'early this week'.
It's been over 2 weeks since deadline for new/improved bids closed.
@WorcsWarriors
running out of time to compete in Champ. #COYW
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Hopefully it's good news!
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Article in today's Daily Telegraph.
Wasps and Worcester future thrown into fresh doubt
The future of Wasps and Worcester Warriors have been plunged into fresh doubt after the Rugby Football Union announced neither had met conditions imposed on their new ownership.
The RFU issued a ?final deadline? of February 14 for the stricken clubs to comply hours after Worcester had been sold to buyers whose takeover it had previously refused to approve.
As well as repeating its reasons for vetoing Atlas Worcester Warriors Rugby Football Club Limited?s application for Warriors to re-join the rugby pyramid next season, the RFU revealed Wasps had failed to meet all the conditions imposed on a rescue deal it had provisionally sanctioned.
It said in a statement: ?The RFU has informed the new owners of Wasps RFC, and the administrators of WRFC Trading Limited (the main operating entity of Worcester Warriors RFC) that they have until 14 February to conclude their negotiations and provide evidence that they have met the relevant conditions set. This is a significant extension to the original mid-December timeline to provide the clubs with the best possible chance of being in the Championship next year. However, a final deadline must be set to provide certainty to the Championship and National League clubs, players and other rugby stakeholders over the format of next season.
?In the case of Wasps, the RFU board conditionally approved the takeover, but not all the conditions set have yet been met, including the lodging of a bond and the signing of an agreement which commits the new club to the relevant conditions. Both would need to be done by the deadline for the approval to remain in place.
?The proposed buyers of Worcester Warriors had informed the RFU that they were not prepared to meet the conditions set, which included commitments not to dispose of land around Sixways Stadium without approval and were unable to satisfy the RFU of the sources and sufficiency of funding. The RFU was not able to confirm the suitability of the prospective owners. Therefore, the RFU board was unable to approve their application. If that position changes within the deadline, the RFU will be able to reconsider whether the application can be approved, but if not, then unfortunately the RFU decision will remain the same.?
The statement followed an announcement by Worcester?s administrators, Begbies Traynor, that it had exchanged contracts with Atlas, which is fronted by former Warriors chief executive Jim O?Toole and backed by US investors.
Joint administrator Julie Palmer, who was legally-bound to strike the best deal for the club?s creditors even if that did not involve the return of rugby to Sixways, said: ?Following a complex process, we are now able to progress the sale of Worcester Warriors and associated assets to Atlas Worcester Warriors Rugby Football Club Limited.
?This is an exclusive contractual position and Atlas are committed to completing this transaction as early as possible.
?We are delighted to see that there is a clear plan in place to deliver both rugby and many other exciting community-focused initiatives to Sixways befitting the fabulous facilities.?
Make what you will of that.
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so from that it would seem both clubs can be/have been sold, but neither currently meet the RFU's conditions so won't be able to play in the Champ, or anywhere?
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Sounds like we haven?t got tje funding lined up yet.
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Shame the article doesn't go into what conditions the new Wasps haven't met, other than not signing an agreement saying they agree to the (mysterious) conditions.
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One of the key ones was paying back rugby creditors and as the article states they have to place a bond with thee RFU.
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There was an interesting comment on 5 Live this morning. O'Toole was being interviewed and he said that he was determined to bring elite level rugby back to Sixways with or without the RFU. I have been wondering what that meant all morning. I am wondering if I misheard...could they be looking at the UC or France?
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There was an interesting comment on 5 Live this morning. O'Toole was being interviewed and he said that he was determined to bring elite level rugby back to Sixways with or without the RFU. I have been wondering what that meant all morning. I am wondering if I misheard...could they be looking at the UC or France?
They can't. The RFU has jurisdiction on what rugby can be played within England and I doubt they would allow a club to play in an external league. Notwithstanding the other leagues are unlikely to welcome the upset to the RFU.
Yesterday this came from their American backer.
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I wonder if there is any reason why the RFU has to have sole jurisdiction? The RFL have teams from across the globe playing in their leagues, so why not Union?
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There was an interesting comment on 5 Live this morning. O'Toole was being interviewed and he said that he was determined to bring elite level rugby back to Sixways with or without the RFU. I have been wondering what that meant all morning. I am wondering if I misheard...could they be looking at the UC or France?
They can't. The RFU has jurisdiction on what rugby can be played within England and I doubt they would allow a club to play in an external league. Notwithstanding the other leagues are unlikely to welcome the upset to the RFU.
Yesterday this came from their American backer.
Are these American backers rich enough and driven enough to become Rugby's Packer?
Nobody thought there was enough money in cricket for Packer and whether or not you agree that it was a success or even desired, he certainly changed the nature of cricket.
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This is a significant extension to the original mid-December timeline to provide the clubs with the best possible chance of being in the Championship next year.
Maybe reading too much into it, but might "next year" rather than "next season" mean in time for the 2024-25 season? A more realistic target.
Let's face it, the rest of the Championship already have probably 80-90% of their playing and coaching groups for next season already in place, and not only that, they are already training and playing together and have been for some time. Wasps and Wuss cannot begin to compete with that starting from scratch in February (at best).
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There was an interesting comment on 5 Live this morning. O'Toole was being interviewed and he said that he was determined to bring elite level rugby back to Sixways with or without the RFU. I have been wondering what that meant all morning. I am wondering if I misheard...could they be looking at the UC or France?
They can't. The RFU has jurisdiction on what rugby can be played within England and I doubt they would allow a club to play in an external league...... .....
The RFU has jurisdiction over its members. But I don't see how the they could claim any legal right to disallow an independent business from forming a non-affiliated club to play in another league?
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There was an interesting comment on 5 Live this morning. O'Toole was being interviewed and he said that he was determined to bring elite level rugby back to Sixways with or without the RFU. I have been wondering what that meant all morning. I am wondering if I misheard...could they be looking at the UC or France?
They can't. The RFU has jurisdiction on what rugby can be played within England and I doubt they would allow a club to play in an external league...... .....
The RFU has jurisdiction over its members. But I don't see how the they could claim any legal right to disallow an independent business from forming a non-affiliated club to play in another league?
It is apparently a World Rugby ruling so any other party that accepts such a team will find themselves under sanction - most wouldn't risk it.
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THe odds against us playing next season must be lengthening as each day passes - 12 days (and counting) to deliver an acceptable proposal to the RFU.
As a consequence of RFU comment, my optimism is beginning to wane as each day passes.
I can always hope that the outcome WILL be positive!!!
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What odds on a 2nd tier breakaway?
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What odds on a 2nd tier breakaway?
It is what I suggested before. The RFU only have 100% control because they say they do. There is no law saying they are the only body, is there? In the USA, didn't the body that ran rugby fold and a new body emerge? New body, new league?
Maybe I misremember what happened over there.
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I know it is over 100 years ago for a precedent, but didn't rugby league do exactly that.
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Perhaps the new version could be called Honest Rugby ? where scrums have a straight feed, shirts are made from cotton (so scrums can bind properly), and anyone who gets caught cheating gets slung out and forfeits their shares.
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There might not be many Clubs left.
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In the business world the shambolic performance of the RFU of late would mean they'd lose their right to the contract and it would be going out to competitive tender. Not sure I can bear to support an England team that represents the RFU in the Six Nations.
Probably find one of the conditions we aren't able to meet is both us and Worcs aren't allowed to tackle above the ankles!
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One huge factor is having to pay 'rugby creditors'. That will run in to tens of millions.
Any sensible investor will say, why pay that? If they are not out and out Wasps die hards, why not pick any other Championship side, and invest in them? That team will have a ground (albeit with potentially little or no infrastructure), a team, coaches, etc.
Having to throw tens of millions down a black hole for a brand that has no ground, no team, no coaches, is a really big ask.
It is this basic conundrum that made me question whether a comeback was even possible, for either team. I still hold to that. I simply do not see it happening.
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Not sure the rugby creditors runs to multi millions. Certainly a large amount if the level of money said to be due to Brad ( who I think was the highest amount due to the existing players).
Do wonder if the Happy New Year tweet will be the last thing we hear. Also notice that the positivity emanating from Pudsey stopped a fair while ago - or maybe he was told to can it.
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One huge factor is having to pay 'rugby creditors'. That will run in to tens of millions.
Any sensible investor will say, why pay that? If they are not out and out Wasps die hards, why not pick any other Championship side, and invest in them? That team will have a ground (albeit with potentially little or no infrastructure), a team, coaches, etc.
Having to throw tens of millions down a black hole for a brand that has no ground, no team, no coaches, is a really big ask.
It is this basic conundrum that made me question whether a comeback was even possible, for either team. I still hold to that. I simply do not see it happening.
In my view it is all stymied by the fact that the phoenix Wasps have to play somewhere in the Coventry area. If they could be allowed to move back to the smoke they could re-assocaite with the amateur side at Twyford Avenue.
It was the RFU and PRL that backed the move to Coventry,as, I have been told," it would grow the game in the Midlands". So in my view they hold some responsibility.
More and more I am coming to the conclusion that we have seen the last of the non-amateur Wasps.
I hope I am wrong, because I have been a supporter of, first the Wasps Amateur First Team, and then the Professional Wasps team for 65 years, and currently there is a gap in my life.
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I fear this site will fairly rapidly become a place dedicated to an amazing former team.
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I fear this site will fairly rapidly become a place dedicated to an amazing former team.
I want to be proven wrong but I fear the same. To be honest, if it doesn't work out I'd rather someone come out and say "sorry everyone, we tried but couldn't make it work" than say something that keeps some of us hoping - dragging it out longer than needs be.
I'll be making the effort to go across to Pau to go and watch Dobby play at some point.
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Having to throw tens of millions down a black hole for a brand that has no ground, no team, no coaches, is a really big ask.
It is this basic conundrum that made me question whether a comeback was even possible, for either team. I still hold to that. I simply do not see it happening.
My initial view when Wasps first got into trouble was that they would go the way of London welsh. I still think that's the most likely outcome, but until that's official I will still hold out a glimmer of hope that something can be recovered.
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I'll be making the effort to go across to Pau to go and watch Dobby play at some point.
At this rate, I'm not sure I'll be making much effort to watch any rugby at all. I'm not sure I'm even going to bother watching England tomorrow.
Rugby, in the land of its birth, is dying on its arse. Elite rugby is controlled by a shrinking, self-serving EPL with less teams, less players, less games, less fans, less exposure, less interest and surely less revenue and less investment. At all other levels, an incompetent RFU is determined to create division, and possibly two separate versions of the sport, by introducing new laws for some but not for others, based on nefarious "evidence" and causing dismay among just about everybody who enjoys watching and playing the game.
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I'll be making the effort to go across to Pau to go and watch Dobby play at some point.
At this rate, I'm not sure I'll be making much effort to watch any rugby at all. I'm not sure I'm even going to bother watching England tomorrow.
Rugby, in the land of its birth, is dying on its arse. Elite rugby is controlled by a shrinking, self-serving EPL with less teams, less players, less games, less fans, less exposure, less interest and surely less revenue and less investment. At all other levels, an incompetent RFU is determined to create division, and possibly two separate versions of the sport, by introducing new laws for some but not for others, based on nefarious "evidence" and causing dismay among just about everybody who enjoys watching and playing the game.
I'll still be watching rugby, but it won't be English professional rugby that I'll be watching. It will likely be French rugby I'll watch. Any English rugby I'll watch will be my local Level 5 team.
I agree with your statement about elite rugby. You may be interested to have a read of my post on the "rugby is doomed" thread as to what I think will happen (it's a long post and can't be bothered to type it out again)
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I find myself disagreeing with this. I re-read the 16th December statement. It confirms a ground HAS been agreed - just not communicated. It?s fairly bullish on the satisfaction of RFU requirements. It?s general tone is that we will be playing in 23-24. For me the lack of news is a positive indicator. Equally I don?t think for one minute we?re starting to recruit a squad in the next few weeks. Conversations with players/coaches will inevitably have already taken place. I?m hopeful.
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I wonder if the delay is largely around waiting to hear/see what happens with the Premiership. Will it retain it's current format for the 2024/25 season or will it be restructured to Prem A + Prem B divsions with promotion and relegation between them?
If the latter is the case, there'll be a whole new funding structure and I wonder whether there is a benefit to delaying our 'come back' for a season,
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I wonder if the delay is largely around waiting to hear/see what happens with the Premiership. Will it retain it's current format for the 2024/25 season or will it be restructured to Prem A + Prem B divsions with promotion and relegation between them?
If the latter is the case, there'll be a whole new funding structure and I wonder whether there is a benefit to delaying our 'come back' for a season,
First point - can't see that because the reorganisation is down to RFU/PRL and they are the ones giving us the ultimatum.
Second point - I think it would be completely insane to delay a comeback. By autumn 2024 the vast majority of supporters will have rearranged their lives to exclude Wasps.
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The issue with us is the money, and the ground, it always was, and it has not been solved. Derek didn't have it. Or at least did not want to fund a loss making club. Fair enough, although his lack of comment damns him in my eyes as a self interested shark. Until he says anything he is as guilty as Worcester's owners but that is neither here nor there. Opprobrium is not going to pay bills.
The fan numbers are fine- better than most- and that is a matter of public record year on year. They can be looked up and have been repeated ad nauseum. Fine in Bucks and London, better in Cov, but decent by rugby standards. No matter how much garbage we hear about London, Bucks or Coventry, it never was about the location. It is bullshit to suggest we will succeed on the back of being in a particular area. Bullshit. It is, and always has been, about the money the owner has and is willing to lose, and owning the ground.
Own the ground and but without the debt to buy it and we will be as bad as all the others, slightly buggered long term and unable to make the money we need to break even but not making huge losses. Middle if the pack bad. Without the ground it is like AP. Untenable long term no matter how full the ground is. So I can't see us working unless serious dough is available. It has gone for a Burton, and we won't be finding it soon.
I am extremely pessimistic even if the championship has us next year- no stable roots and many long term fans not going to turn up for Championship rugby unless we have hope of escape.
That, plus the lack of punishment for cheats at the top, make English rugby a deeply unattractive long term prospect for me.
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For those who have fallen out of love with rugby, I understand.
BUT, there's a whole world of rugby out there to enjoy. Find your local amateur club, go and watch them on a Saturday, have a beer & a burger & speak to REAL rugby fans & players. Go and watch the juniors & women play on Sunday. Its a totally refreshing difference to the pro & international game. Hopefully it will remind you why you started watching rugby in the first place & you can fall in love with it all over again.
Just to warn you, you WILL be asked if you've ever played &, irrespective of the answer, you WILL get asked if you would like a run out next week! Age & ability won't matter :)
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I fear this site will fairly rapidly become a place dedicated to an amazing former team.
I want to be proven wrong but I fear the same. To be honest, if it doesn't work out I'd rather someone come out and say "sorry everyone, we tried but couldn't make it work" than say something that keeps some of us hoping - dragging it out longer than needs be.
I'll be making the effort to go across to Pau to go and watch Dobby play at some point.
Yep, I think Racing for me. Two players I loved watching at Wasps there. I will be wearing a Wasps shirt if I do go though.
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The cold reality is that, unless 'we' can find a philanthropist, who is prepared to pay off the debt and then put up money for future investment, we are dead in the water.
I wonder if Jim Ratcliffe fancies 'Ineos Wasps'?
Nobody with a business brain is going to take us on, for sure.
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The cold reality is that, unless 'we' can find a philanthropist, who is prepared to pay off the debt and then put up money for future investment, we are dead in the water.
I wonder if Jim Ratcliffe fancies 'Ineos Wasps'?
Nobody with a business brain is going to take us on, for sure.
Well JLR are going massive on the Defender this year including the world cup.
The demographic of rugby lends itself to the 4x4 including ex players being paid to big them up on social media.
If he wants a foothold for the Grenadier stranger things have happened.
Pigs might fly mind.