Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Neils on February 09, 2023, 11:59:38 AM
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/02/09/wasps-play-sixways-worcester-warriors-merge-stourbridge-rfc/
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Wasps are on the verge of finalising a deal to play at Sixways, the former ground of Worcester Warriors, Telegraph Sport understands.
The arrangement would see professional rugby return to Sixways just months after the Warriors were liquidated, with Wasps expected to abandon plans to move to Solihull.
Wasps were relegated from the Premiership following their own liquidation last year. They are now in the process of applying to join the Championship. Any application to play at Sixways would need to be ratified by the RFU.
And on a dramatic day for the stricken former Premiership clubs, it also was announced that Worcester Warriors will rebrand as Sixways Rugby and play in National League 2 West after taking over semi-professional side Stourbridge.
More to follow . . .
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Behind paywall but will get whole article up soon - unless somebody else does.
Strikes me somebody is feed the Telegraph - yesterday Logan saying things moving and now this
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Not sure what to think of this. It does not sit at all well with me. With Warriors officially giving up on the Championship (and, by RFU rules actually ceasing to exist), frees the RFU to accept Wasps playing in that location.
London and South East fans wanting to come by train would find getting there a nightmare. Coaches/Buses or car share from Warwick Parkway I guess.
Really easy for me to get to though by motorbike, and Warriors always had free parking for bikes (I have been there a few times).
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Personally, I don't feel comfortable with supporting Wasps at Sixways given how Warriors have been screwed over by their intended saviours.
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Personally, I don't feel comfortable with supporting Wasps at Sixways given how Warriors have been screwed over by their intended saviours.
+1
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Not comfortable with this at all.
Feels like we're taking advantage of Worcester's demise at best. At worst this is a full on stitch up by the RFU, PRL and Wasps to preserve the big brand club at the expense of Worcester. It stinks.
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Personally, I don't feel comfortable with supporting Wasps at Sixways given how Warriors have been screwed over by their intended saviours.
I'm not comfortable with it either but I don't think we are in a position to be too choosy.
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Not comfortable with this at all.
Feels like we're taking advantage of Worcester's demise at best. At worst this is a full on stitch up by the RFU, PRL and Wasps to preserve the big brand club at the expense of Worcester. It stinks.
I agree but I bet I still end up going.
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Personally, I don't feel comfortable with supporting Wasps at Sixways given how Warriors have been screwed over by their intended saviours.
I'm not comfortable with it either but I don't think we are in a position to be too choosy.
I agree with you Ross, I think any advantage we get from Worcester's situation certainly won't endear us to anyone and it will continue to make life difficult for Wasps. But, you're right, Wasps aren't in really in the position to be in the moral position to say "thanks, but no thanks" considering they are working towards getting into the Championship next season.
If we were to, likely unofficially, come out and say that we understand the sensitivity surrounding Wasps playing at Sixways, we are there because we wanted to play Championship rugby and we want to find a suitable permanent solution for ourselves that's away from Sixways, I feel that's a better way of trying to deal with it. I know this is very simplistic but the sentiment is the point I'm trying to put across.
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Not comfortable with this at all.
Feels like we're taking advantage of Worcester's demise at best. At worst this is a full on stitch up by the RFU, PRL and Wasps to preserve the big brand club at the expense of Worcester. It stinks.
Actually the RFU rejected Atlas as owners because they had concerns over their plans, with property and use of the site being more important to them than Rugby. Given what's been announced today, I can entirely see why they reached that conclusion.
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Quite frankly this is just bizarre. For a start there is already opposition to this from external bodies. If it all falls through and with a deadline of the 14th we are scuppered. That?s before you get into the moral dilemma of cuckooing into Sixways. Not sure this will work.
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'Cuckooing' is the right word. Repeat of the Ricoh. Altho' it is almost within spitting distance of our home and also our daughter's home none of us would be comfortable going to Wuss under these circumstances.
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More from the DT:
Wasps are on the brink of finalising a deal to play at Sixways, the former ground of Worcester Warriors, Telegraph Sport understands.
The arrangement would see professional rugby return to Sixways just months after the Warriors were liquidated, with Wasps expected to abandon plans to move to Solihull.
Wasps were relegated from the Premiership following their own liquidation last year. They are now in the process of applying to join the Championship and any move to Sixways would have to meet the Rugby Football Union?s conditions.
And on a dramatic day for the stricken former Premiership clubs, it also was announced that Worcester Warriors would cease to exist, with Sixways Rugby entering National League 2 West after rebranding semi-professional side Stourbridge.
Atlas Worcester Warriors Rugby Club Limited confirmed on Thursday that they had pulled out of the application process to compete in the Championship next season as Worcester Warriors, with director Jim O?Toole stating they ?cannot agree to the RFU?s conditions and commercial restrictions?.
?We will invest in [Stourbridge?s] semi-professional first team and they will play at Sixways,? said O?Toole. ?We will invest significantly to get them through the leagues. The plan will be to reach the Championship by 2026.
?We hope to be able to call upon former players to come in and help us move through the divisions. Some of the older guys who can still mix it in that league, as well as the players who were breaking through from the academy.?
Stourbridge are currently placed bottom in National League 2 West and could, therefore, be relegated into Midlands 1 next season, the fifth tier of English rugby. Should relegation occur, for the club to fulfil O?Toole?s desire of reaching the Championship by 2026, they would have to achieve three back-to-back promotions.
Telegraph Sport has approached the RFU for comment.
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Why not just rename to Wasps Warriors and be done with it. Where next? Carlisle?
Last time I travelled from London to Worcester by train it was a chore I have avoided since.
To be honest, I'd rather Wasps commit to the Coventry area, or relocate back to London and play in National League 2 than do this.
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I think this exclusive leads to more questions than answers:
- Why Sixways and not Solihull Moors?
- Is it short-term or long-term
- What were the issues with the RFU policies/funding that the Warriors consortium had?
- Does this mean we have the funding for a semi-competitive Championship squad?
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More on the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64502475
Including O'Toole saying:
... we believe we need another tenant and are in talks.
He also confirms the women's sides are gone:
Worcester women and Worcester Raiders will see out the season at Sixways
sad news.
I am not convinced Stourbridge will be rebranded. Sixways Rugby could simply be the name of the entity running the gorund.
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I think this exclusive leads to more questions than answers:
- Why Sixways and not Solihull Moors?
- Is it short-term or long-term
- What were the issues with the RFU policies/funding that the Warriors consortium had?
- Does this mean we have the funding for a semi-competitive Championship squad?
I'm going to have a guess at answering some of those questions....
- Sixways is probably preferred to Solihull Moors as it solves the problems of meeting Premiership criteria such as stadium capacity.
- I'd guess it depends on our aspirations. I'd have a guess at short to medium term, depending on whether we want our own stadium or if there is a different long term plan in mind that doesn't involve Sixways.
- Comments on this forum suggested that the focus of Atlas was the assets that came with purchasing the club, rather than the rugby itself.
- Can't say for sure but if Wasps are moving to Sixways, you'd think there was a sizeable sum of money there for Wasps to use.
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I think this exclusive leads to more questions than answers:
- Why Sixways and not Solihull Moors?
- Is it short-term or long-term
- What were the issues with the RFU policies/funding that the Warriors consortium had?
- Does this mean we have the funding for a semi-competitive Championship squad?
Bigger ground, more potential for gate receipts.
Can stay there if we get promoted. The deal is for 5 years. Moors only offered 1 year with a possible extension of one year (I suspect they have been offered money to sell the ground to developers).
The American finance was the problem, and the financial structure of Atlas.
Looks like it. Looks like the ground is the potential issue, not the finance.
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I think this exclusive leads to more questions than answers:
- Why Sixways and not Solihull Moors?
- Is it short-term or long-term
- What were the issues with the RFU policies/funding that the Warriors consortium had?
- Does this mean we have the funding for a semi-competitive Championship squad?
Bigger ground, more potential for gate receipts.
Can stay there if we get promoted. The deal is for 5 years. Moors only offered 1 year with a possible extension of one year (I suspect they have been offered money to sell the ground to developers).
The American finance was the problem, and the financial structure of Atlas.
Looks like it. Looks like the ground is the potential issue, not the finance.
Nelly how much of your Worcester forum post is viable do you think?
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I understand some of the sentimenst expressed on here and to a certain extent I agree with them.
However, this is NOT Wasps ousting Warriors & nicking Sixways.
If all that's being reported is correct Warriors don't exist as a professional outfit any more so there is no connection to Sixways. It is now an empty stadium looking to make money by attracting a professional side to play there.
Will Warriors supporters like it? No, of course not & I feel for them, but its the demise of their club that is the issue, not someone else using a stadium they used to own.
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Yeah, at that point I'd be done.
Solihull is quite a distance for me by rail, but doesn't feel like we're jumping in another club's grave. Do not see how we'd get any attendance, or even income, over on Warriors' patch.
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When it looks like a pig, walks like a pig, smells like a pig, sounds like a pig ...
You have to think it is what the events seem to suggest.
One has to be suspicious that the new Wasps Owners and Atlas stitched this up the minute the RFU said NO to them being owners of WW, and that said proposal was in the hands of the RFU pretty soon after. Who, one has to suspect, said 'Yes'.
It suits the RFU.
It means one less team in the Championship.
It keeps the one with the 'long and proud' history alive.
It utilizes a premiership standard ground.
It gives Wasps time to get a ground and keep them more in the Coventry area in the longer run.
It removes the objections that Wasps are moving in to Warrior's territory, as the warriors demise was announced before, as luck would have, now here come Wasps to the now vacant ground.
It makes it easier to get a squad together for just the one team.
Wasps rugby creditors will get paid.
It has the downside that WW rugby creditors do not get paid, but their rugby creditors were not as large as those of Wasps, who will get paid.
It rescues a local club (Stourbridge) who were likely going under.
The big losers are WW fans, and the government.
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Personally, I don't feel comfortable with supporting Wasps at Sixways given how Warriors have been screwed over by their intended saviours.
I'm torn on this one as well. A former business partner and very good friend comes form Worcester and has now moved back there. He's a Sale fan and former STH but obviously Worcester is in his heart. I know one of his uncles and cousins who were lifelong WW STHs and when I met them at our last game there they were devastated by what was going on.
I'm not sure they'll see it as taking advantage I'll feel uncomfortable asking my friend if I can stay to go and watch games.
On the other hand, if it means we survive and its the best option ....
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Not sure we would be welcome there.
We met some Rugby fans from Worcester last year, but they were Worcester RFC fans, and they regarded Warriors in the same way that many Coventry RFC fans regarded Wasps rolling up at the Ricoh. That was with a team that was local
Also, as a home counties fan, we would no longer be able to go there regularly, so would only get to see them if they played at local grounds (e.g. Ealing, Richmond) or were to make a weekend of it (eg Jersey)
I still think the best bet, in the long term, is a stadium close to the Chiltern Line in the Bicester/Banbury area as it would be reachable by both the London-based and Coventry-based fans. However any move will need the approval of the RFU, who have moved slightly in not insisting on playing again in Coventry. Because of the demise of "Warriors" they might well insist they will only allow Wasps to play at Sixways is the Phoenix Wasps pick up the Warriors Rugby Debt as well .
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Torn here too. Easier for me to get to than Coventry, from Bristol way. Not sure we're in a position to be fussy. Not sure it's got legs as a concept.
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I do not like this at all.
It feels almost as if they've sat down and planned out the only possible move that would be even less popular than moving to Coventry.
I don't know if I can support that team.
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reading the BBC article there is clearly a lot of discussions and agreements required before anything is finalised.
This could be going on a while
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reading the BBC article there is clearly a lot of discussions and agreements required before anything is finalised.
This could be going on a while
You are not suggesting the RFU might fail their own date of 14 February?
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I do not like this at all.
It feels almost as if they've sat down and planned out the only possible move that would be even less popular than moving to Coventry.
I don't know if I can support that team.
Well i don't think we planned calling in the administrators. It may well be that alarm bells were raised about the Worcester bid and they reached out to our buyers.
Like many i would love to see us just off the Chiltern Line, but for now thats not going to happen. I guess if we move to Sixways then this will be long term, where Solihul would off been short term.
I'm sure that there will be a very vocal amount of WW fans that would never go to a game at Sixways, but on the counter side there will also be a number that given the chance of going to see Premership rugby or not will go (assuming we can get promotion). I'm not sure there should be a lot of hatred towards Wasps as i can't see how we have caused their demise. We will also get to see if all these so called Coventry faithful will make the trip.
Once a Wasps always a Wasp. So i will support them if we indeed end up in Worcester, but going to be tough for now attending games from Princeton NJ :)
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Analysis - 'This not a done deal'
BBC rugby correspondent Chris Jones
While Atlas say they will partner with Stourbridge, become Sixways Rugby, and play at Sixways, it is not a done deal.
Any tie-up with Stourbridge will need to be approved by their members. The club is holding a Special General Meeting on Friday night.
Interestingly, in the letter sent to Stourbridge members there is no mention of the club moving to Sixways as Atlas suggest in their exclusive interview with BBC Hereford & Worcester.
There is also anger from former Warriors employees that this latest development will mean the millions of pounds owed to rugby creditors will go unpaid.
One former member of management has branded it "absolutely disgusting". Supporters will also be devastated that their beloved club won't be coming back.
It's also understood any name change would need to be approved by the RFU, who have been contacted for their response.
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I do not like this at all.
I don't know if I can support that team.
Once a Wasps always a Wasp. So I will support them if we indeed end up in Worcester
Well if it saves us I'm all for it and I fully endorse the Once A Wasp Always A Wasp ethos. I will support the club wherever they play whether that's Carlisle, Dover, Lowestoft, Cornwall or Worcester.
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If I was a Stourbridge member I wold be biting the hand off anyone who if offering me money/resources.
yes they will need to have some agreement on what happens to the rest of the club & I can't honestly see the point of them playing at Sixways but the rest on the surface looks positive for them.
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It?s beyond question that I?d support Wasps if we moved to Sixways. I don?t see the difference between there and Loftus Road, Adams Park or the Ricoh from a moral perspective. If anything it?s rescuing an empty building. My main worry is pushing so much through before the 14th. If we aren?t allowed to compete in the Championship next year we will be finished.
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I do not like this at all.
It feels almost as if they've sat down and planned out the only possible move that would be even less popular than moving to Coventry.
I don't know if I can support that team.
Well i don't think we planned calling in the administrators. It may well be that alarm bells were raised about the Worcester bid and they reached out to our buyers.
Like many i would love to see us just off the Chiltern Line, but for now thats not going to happen. I guess if we move to Sixways then this will be long term, where Solihul would off been short term.
I'm sure that there will be a very vocal amount of WW fans that would never go to a game at Sixways, but on the counter side there will also be a number that given the chance of going to see Premership rugby or not will go (assuming we can get promotion). I'm not sure there should be a lot of hatred towards Wasps as i can't see how we have caused their demise. We will also get to see if all these so called Coventry faithful will make the trip.
Once a Wasps always a Wasp. So i will support them if we indeed end up in Worcester, but going to be tough for now attending games from Princeton NJ :)
Are you from NJ? I didn't realise Wasps influence would travel so far! Nice to see you a part of the forum :D
I'm one of the fans picked up during the Coventry era and will still be making an effort to go and support the club. Forget ownership, this is the only club I felt I could connect with. Sure, it helped with some of the beautiful rugby we've watched over the years but there's no club like this one.
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This seems to be Atlas giving the middle finger to the RFU and using Wasps in the process.
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I am a new supporter from the Coventry era. Frankly, I wish we were the ones giving two fingers to the RFU and starting from the bottom.
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The question isn't whether I will support the club I've loved for decades if they move? The question is, is a new collection of players, new coaches, and a new venue actually still the club I've loved for decades?
In reality that isn't an objective decision. I didn't like the move to Cov when it happened, but I rapidly found it didn't actually matter. Wasps were Wasps, and nothing else mattered.
Time will tell how I emotionally feel about this team called Wasps...
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VV. Have to agree this won't be the same wasps as before. However if they come back I will support the team.
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The question isn't whether I will support the club I've loved for decades if they move? The question is, is a new collection of players, new coaches, and a new venue actually still the club I've loved for decades?
In reality that isn't an objective decision. I didn't like the move to Cov when it happened, but I rapidly found it didn't actually matter. Wasps were Wasps, and nothing else mattered.
Time will tell how I emotionally feel about this team called Wasps...
I haven't always agreed with you over the years VV but that's very accurate IMO. The only saving grace of "New Wasps" should be that the owners are, on the face of it, Wasps Legends & will have a good idea about what made Wasps special in the first place & hopefully they can replicate it....
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Let?s be pragmatic. It won?t be the Wasps of old. But it will be the nearest thing to it by a long chalk. The ownership, the new Board all, in fact, have Wasps connections. If there is enough funding to move to Sixways we may even see the odd squad player from old Wasps back. In Logan?s interview he referenced the fact that he was in continuous dialogue with agents/players. There is obviously interest - being able to offer Henley as a training centre and Sixways as a stadium is a good recruiting tool.
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I?ve alway taken Wasps to be an ethos, a spirit, and not a location. I think it?s what appealed once I started being attracted to the club.
That?s why I said some time ago that if the club can afford it they should try to get one or 2 players who were part of the club when it folded. Ideally I?d like Joe Launchbury to come back at some time because he epitomises that ethos but I accept that can?t happen for a year or 2. I?m sure everyone could think of others and have their favourites.
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It?s beyond question that I?d support Wasps if we moved to Sixways. I don?t see the difference between there and Loftus Road, Adams Park or the Ricoh from a moral perspective. If anything it?s rescuing an empty building. My main worry is pushing so much through before the 14th. If we aren?t allowed to compete in the Championship next year we will be finished.
Are we still not waiting on the outcome of if there will be promotion or not. That would impact our set of investors. If there is then hopefully we will have some reasonable backing and can make this happen. Lets dream and think we did put out a competitive team next year, with Sixways we have a route to the Prem. In Solihull we would have to move again. Am I missing something ?
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Does anyone have any insider info on the Wuss supporters views? I feel guilty about all this.
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Does anyone have any insider info on the Wuss supporters views? I feel guilty about all this.
Well - if you were to look at the WW Forum you would find they are not pleased. Great anger towards their new buyers (and still the old), the RFU for allowing it (not sure what they could do where an Administrator is involved) and, of course, the franchise cuckoos from London. Actually not so much at Wasps apart from the fact they think we are "the favoured heritage team".
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Thank you Neils. Much as I thought.
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Stourbridge press release
https://www.stourbridgerugby.com/news/press-release-2759940.html
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Does anyone have any insider info on the Wuss supporters views? I feel guilty about all this.
Well - if you were to look at the WW Forum you would find they are not pleased. Great anger towards their new buyers (and still the old), the RFU for allowing it (not sure what they could do where an Administrator is involved) and, of course, the franchise cuckoos from London. Actually not so much at Wasps apart from the fact they think we are "the favoured heritage team".
I would say very little ire aimed at Wasps. The new owners, yes. Begbies, some. The RFU, some. There are even some WW fans who say they would come to the occasional Wasps game. Many, like I have said, see this as a stitch up almost from October. I tend to agree, it does look like it.
Many want there to be a way to stop it.
Saying Begbies can't sell it to Atlas, shouldn't sell it to Atlas. They can, and are. I suspect final contracts have not yet been signed. Waiting for the RFU to at least give the nod to Wasps playing there and to fully approve the Wasps deal.
Saying Atlas are a bunch of .....
Saying the RFU shouldn't agree the deal. What can the RFU do to stop Atlas buying the ground etc.? Not a lot, other than to say Wasps can't play there, or that some other aspect of the Wasps proposal is unsatisfactory.
The Stourbridge thing is a side deal. It does not impact Wasps. I don't think it involves changing the name of the club. I think it will likely stay as Stourbridge for now. It is only the first team anyway. All other teams would stay at Stourbridge. Stourbridge are in severe trouble. Can't get enough players to play, out of money, lost pretty much every game this season. If their members do not agree the deal, they are likely doomed. It is, however, a member owned club.
Just a lot of sadness, frustration and anger. And you can't help but feel it is all justified.
In a way, this whole mess is a microcosm of the state of the game in England, with the RFU alseep at the helm. Many clubs looking on, thinking, 'There but for the Grace of ...'
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Comment from Andy Scott (Wasps) contained within -
https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/worcester-warriors-sixways-rugby-wasps-2139655?ITO=newsnow
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The salient bit -
Christopher Holland, who put money up for a company, Halo22, to buy the Wasps brand from the old Wasps Holdings, owns the training centre in Henley-in-Arden that was used by the previous Wasps set-up and is 20 miles from Sixways.
Andy Scott, the chief executive of the new Wasps venture, told i there was a wish not to create false hope for the club?s followers.
?The simple position we are in, and the decision we have made, is we will only make a statement once we have something solid that we can say because what we don?t want to do is just add to this huge morass of conjecture,? said Scott.
?Nothing?s changed insofar as we?ve got a lot of moving pieces, we?re working hard to bring them all across, and there?s quite a lot of interdependencies. Once one drops, the rest will drop soon after. We?re doing everything we can, we haven?t stopped since we started doing that in December.?
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Fuck it. I'm in. Yes I think it stinks, but only because WW have been bought by a turd, having been owned by one. Sorry, the whole thing stinks because the administrators are not supposed to care about Rugby. We can't do anything about that. Honestly though, there is no long term future at Sixways unless we own it. But will I go there? Yeah, it is a proper rugby ground, and if we can get out of the Championship it would be a fabulous prem ground.
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Sports network (DW) have quickly removed WW name and temporary position in the Premiership. Now named Sixways and given their own section at the bottom of the listing.
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With this all due to be sorted on Valentines Day, I?m sure there?s plenty more shafting to come. Clearly the RFU will play the part of a demented swinger in dishing out the shafting without so as the courtesy of flowers.
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Wasps were due to play Warriors this weekend.
You couldn't make this lot up.
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Worth visiting the Warriors site and you will see comments similar to those you have read on this thread. They, rightly, feel shafted by O'Toole/Atlas after all their optimism. O & A are, like Warriors' former owners, claiming that they feel they have been let down by the RFU in terms of the conditions they have been demanding of the new owners. No mention of what those conditions are but I would guess that they would have been expected to reimburse their rugby creditors. So they have decided to partner with Stourbridge whose first team would move to play at Sixways. That depends on how the Stourbridge members vote tomorrow night.
How do I feel about Wasps moving to Worcester? Well, I have supported them since 1990 and therefore followed them from Twyford Avenue to Loftus Road to High Wycombe to Coventry. A bit more of a stretch going to Worcester. I can understand how the Worcester fans feel - but, hopefully, they will not blame Wasps and there is no indication of that on their site.
What will the RFU do? If they have any sense, they will extend the deadline beyond the 14th so they and the two clubs can sort out whatever issues need to be settled. They can't keep saying that its up to the two parties. They are a key player.
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I can certainly understand the 'beggars can't be choosers' point of view which ever way the case is made regarding a move to Sixways. Huge respect to the Legends getting behind the set up to save the name of the club - time is running out and they need to find a way to save Wasps with limited options available, whilst jumping through hoops for the clowns that run the game.
However, the problem for me is that we were dramatically uprooted mid season and moved to Coventry on the basis we were about to go bust, mainly because we were tenants and didn't have our own ground. So we moved and went bust anyway, only to end up as tenants of another ground 120odd miles away from where the club spent the first 148 years of its existence.
I'm sure given the option the Legends would rather move Wasps back to the London area (as would I), but I don't share the opinion of anywhere will do. I think we've seen how much a club is intrinsically linked to its location and evolution as part of a community by the CCFC/Ricoh saga and the thoughts on here about 'cuckooing' at Sixways. I wasn't happy about moving to Coventry and have always been of the idea that if I like a sport, I want to watch it live, and so I'll weigh up the best local offering and go there. The club will have a profile in the town, there'll be info about it in my local media, there'll be tie ins with the local community and they'll be well known enough to chat about at work or the pub. A successful local club brings a lot of positive feeling to a place as well as being easy to get to for an afternoon or evening and share a pint with likeminded people.
In the last two or three years my interest in the game has waned because the whole professional set up is rotten. From Saracens cheating, their attitude, the feeble RFU punishments, the clutch of Saracens 'kick and chase' coaching clones - Borthwick, Sanderson, Wigglesworth etc, Baxter spouting off, ascerbic Eddie J losing his way and wrecking the careers of exciting English talent like Robson. The RFU and PRL are so in the pockets of the Cheats and Baxter that the Legends would be better off lobbying them than working with the so called 'Governing bodies'
What I'm getting to in a roundabout way is that I'll always be a Wasps fan and only a Wasps fan, but Sixways is too far for me to get to or fit in at a weekend, and I'm not sure I really want them back in a predictable Prem that's not fit for purpose anymore.
I'm happy to be a Championship fan from a distance and maybe go to the odd game, and I'll be very happy Wasps survive - that's what really matters. Hopefully all the Coventry and Midlands based fans are up for it and with the dedicated 'Southerners' will be there to take the club into a new era.
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Right. What does OAWAAW mean?
I'm relatively new - Coventry based fan - but if you're in, you're in.
Worcester, Coventry, Solihull, Wycombe... wherever.
(yeah, it's a s**t situation and I feel f**king awful for the Worcester fans).
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Once A Wasp Always A Wasp
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Right. What does OAWAAW mean?
I'm relatively new - Coventry based fan - but if you're in, you're in.
Worcester, Coventry, Solihull, Wycombe... wherever.
(yeah, it's a s**t situation and I feel f**king awful for the Worcester fans).
Once A Wasp Always A Wasp :)
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It?s beyond question that I?d support Wasps if we moved to Sixways. I don?t see the difference between there and Loftus Road, Adams Park or the Ricoh from a moral perspective. If anything it?s rescuing an empty building. My main worry is pushing so much through before the 14th. If we aren?t allowed to compete in the Championship next year we will be finished.
Just to confirm - I'd still support Wasps. Whilst only able to make occasional games - it's been a part of my rugby world since the 80's. If it has legs - then the train to Worcester is an hour or so and no changes.
OAWAAW....
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Right. What does OAWAAW mean?
For clarity: that was rhetorical.
Point well made though, and thank to those that expanded it!
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I thought it was ?Once at Wycombe although approaching Worcester?.
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I'm not sure leasing Sixways would be a good plan for New Wasps compared to say Solihull Moors. That's if Moors has ever been a realistic option. Why lease a ground that will still be far too big for at least the first 5 years with all the costs associated with it especially if Worcester is probably not the right location for Wasps anyway. The club will get so much bad feeling once again, and again unjustifiably so, for moving into dead mens shoes. I understand the ambition to be back in the Prem but we are trying to sprint before we can even stumble. Without the P Shares then entry to the Prem is not possible anyway.
Keep it simple, keep it within a manageable budget and build the club back up from sustainable base point.
I can see though that for an investor and sponsor you are more likely to commit your money and bring your clients to a game at Sixways than a small non league football ground sat between massive warehouses. Swings and roundabouts perhaps to securing the funds to get the club off the ground.
As for Warriors. The new owners are buying their way in at a price point they can afford. Wont be long before Stourbridge/Sixways RFC becomes Worcester Sixways, the original club at Stourbridge gets dropped and separated off and a new Worcster club emerges, free of the old debt and ready to go again.
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I thought it was ?Once at Wycombe although approaching Worcester?.
;D ;D ;D
#TooSoon
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As I understand it not having a P Share does not proclude you from the Premiership but it does exclude you from TV etc funding.
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I thought it was ?Once at Wycombe although approaching Worcester?.
Naughty
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Does anyone have any insight as to what is happening to the academies? I assume we can't just merge Wasps and Worcester. And if we are in the Championship and not a Premiership team, how is the Academy affected?
To me, supporting Wasps is about watching Academy players turn into Internationals.
If Wasps were playing in Timbuktu but still had a Willis or a Launchbury playing I would support them.
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From The Ruck - nothing new -
BREAKING: Wasps will play at Premiership stadium next season
9 February 2023
Rugby Rucker
According to The Telegraph, Wasps are now in talks to share Sixways Stadium with Sixways Rugby, the newly rebranded Worcester Warriors.
This could bring professional rugby back to Sixways just a few months after the Warriors? liquidation. Wasps, who were relegated from the Premiership after their own liquidation last year, are now seeking to join the Championship and any move to Sixways would have to comply with the Rugby Football Union?s conditions.
On a tumultuous day for the former Premiership clubs, it was also announced that Worcester Warriors will no longer exist, with Sixways Rugby taking their place in National League 2 West after rebranding semi-professional club Stourbridge.
The Rugby Football Union had given Worcester Warriors a deadline of February 14th to meet the requirements for playing in the second tier, but Jim O?Toole, part of the Atlas takeover with James Sandford, announced that discussions on the matter have ended.
?There were a number of key clauses in the contract that we couldn?t sign,? said O?Toole.
He told BBC Hereford & Worcester: ?This decision will clearly upset and annoy a number of people.
?The sad fact of life is that the Worcester Warriors brand and the Worcester Warriors business is gone.
?The name sadly will disappear. We are rebranding as Sixways Rugby.?
The new club will instead partner with fourth-tier side Stourbridge, who ex-Warriors chief executive O?Toole says will play at Sixways for the rest of the season.
Next season, under the new name of ?Sixways Rugby?, they will compete in the National League 2 West.
Two more Premiership clubs in trouble as league?s debt topples ?500m
#13. Exeter Chiefs ? ?13m
#12. Gloucester ? ?27m
#11. Northampton Saints ?26.5m
#10. Worcester Warriors ? ?26.5m
#9. Sale Sharks ? ?30.9m
#8. Leicester Tigers ? ?31m
#7. Harlequins ? ?33.7m
#6. London Irish ? ?37.5m
#5. Bath ? ?37.3m
#4. Newcastle Falcons ? ?39m
#3. Saracens ? ?40.8m
#3. Bristol Bears ? ?51.2m
#1. Wasps ? ?112.3m
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As I understand it not having a P Share does not proclude you from the Premiership but it does exclude you from TV etc funding.
Doesn?t the whole P share thing fall away once the term of the CVC investment ends?
If it doesn?t then the Prem won?t (shouldn?t) have the right to negotiate deals on behalf of any team that doesn?t get their share of television rights for the games they appear in.
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Does anyone have any insight as to what is happening to the academies? I assume we can't just merge Wasps and Worcester. And if we are in the Championship and not a Premiership team, how is the Academy affected?
To me, supporting Wasps is about watching Academy players turn into Internationals.
If Wasps were playing in Timbuktu but still had a Willis or a Launchbury playing I would support them.
I understood that the Academy was still running - something that Chris Holland guaranteed (may be wrong on this). I do know that "Skulls Wasps" twitter etc has been following the current series of matches and I think he put up a team list for this weekend.
Wouldn't put it past the EAs, Cheetahs or Donkeys to voluntee to take on the area though.
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Next season, under the new name of ?Sixways Rugby?, they will compete in the National League 2 West.
Two more Premiership clubs in trouble as league?s debt topples ?500m
#13. Exeter Chiefs ? ?13m
#12. Gloucester ? ?27m
#11. Northampton Saints ?26.5m
#10. Worcester Warriors ? ?26.5m
#9. Sale Sharks ? ?30.9m
#8. Leicester Tigers ? ?31m
#7. Harlequins ? ?33.7m
#6. London Irish ? ?37.5m
#5. Bath ? ?37.3m
#4. Newcastle Falcons ? ?39m
#3. Saracens ? ?40.8m
#3. Bristol Bears ? ?51.2m
#1. Wasps ? ?112.3m
That?s a bit off, the Wasps that owes that money no longer exists. The new Wasps owes rugby creditors as part of the deal to continue playing at Championship level, but it?s nowhere near that much.
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Does anyone have any insight as to what is happening to the academies? I assume we can't just merge Wasps and Worcester. And if we are in the Championship and not a Premiership team, how is the Academy affected?
To me, supporting Wasps is about watching Academy players turn into Internationals.
If Wasps were playing in Timbuktu but still had a Willis or a Launchbury playing I would support them.
I understood that the Academy was still running - something that Chris Holland guaranteed (may be wrong on this). I do know that "Skulls Wasps" twitter etc has been following the current series of matches and I think he put up a team list for this weekend.
Wouldn't put it past the EAs, Cheetahs or Donkeys to voluntee to take on the area though.
The RFU are running them directly, for both Wasps and Worcester (at the moment, unsure how that will pan out for Worcs in light of the current news). Playing games as "Midlands Academy North" and "Midlands Academy West", or something of that nature.
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As I understand it not having a P Share does not proclude you from the Premiership but it does exclude you from TV etc funding.
Doesn?t the whole P share thing fall away once the term of the CVC investment ends?
If it doesn?t then the Prem won?t (shouldn?t) have the right to negotiate deals on behalf of any team that doesn?t get their share of television rights for the games they appear in.
P Share was there before CVC. Exeter had to buy one off of Yorkshire Carnegie I think. CVC involvement just means the Premiership get 27% less of the TV money. I must admit I do not see CVC earning their over a quarter share by expanding the game!!
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I feel so desperatley sorry for the Wuss fans. Imagine how we would feel. Have had some great times at Sixways and they are top people down there. This is just horrible for them. Knowing them though, they will not make life hard for Wasps.
I'm with AndyWasp - just pleased we will survive. For now. But we can't long term until we own our own stadium, hopefully this is a staging post for a long term solution nearer Wasps London roots.
For me looking forward to the Ealing / Scots / Richmond games, and "away" to Sixways now and again. Can recommend the Redesdale Hotel and Raj mahal curry house in Moreton in Marsh just up the railway line for a great evening stay / meal post match
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Academies are Midlands West (Worcester) and Midlands Central (Wasps). They are run by the RFU. I believe that the ex Wasps academy coaching staff includes Ashley Johnson and they train at Henley in Arden.
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Next season, under the new name of ?Sixways Rugby?, they will compete in the National League 2 West.
Two more Premiership clubs in trouble as league?s debt topples ?500m
#13. Exeter Chiefs ? ?13m
#12. Gloucester ? ?27m
#11. Northampton Saints ?26.5m
#10. Worcester Warriors ? ?26.5m
#9. Sale Sharks ? ?30.9m
#8. Leicester Tigers ? ?31m
#7. Harlequins ? ?33.7m
#6. London Irish ? ?37.5m
#5. Bath ? ?37.3m
#4. Newcastle Falcons ? ?39m
#3. Saracens ? ?40.8m
#3. Bristol Bears ? ?51.2m
#1. Wasps ? ?112.3m
Amazing that Sarries, having had all their debt written off previously, is already back up to 3rd (2nd really) in that list. Can't sell out a 10k stadium yet racks up ?40m in debt. Proof that only the super rich will survive, you'll get buried trying to keep up with the spending.
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For now we need to forget long term ambitions.
New Wasps must organise:
1. Funds to pay rugby creditors
2. A ground they can play on the satisfies the RFU
3. Be able to satisfy the RFU on any other not so obvious conditions that may or may not have been applied to the fit & proper person test.
One question on the whole Warriors situation. From what we have heard Atlas are not considered fit & proper owners for Warriors. Given that any merge/amalgamation/whatever with Stourbridge would require RFU approval, would Atlas be considered fit & proper for that?
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One point that is not being mentioned. The rugby creditors are required to attempt to mitigate their losses.
Claiming on credit insurance for example.
Some of the debt will be contingent. Wasps (and Warriors) had term contracts with players, meaning they are legally obliged to pay out the remainder of the contract. But, as the players get contracts elsewhere, they mitigate their claims and the rugby debt decreases. The debt on the players contracts could easily have been ?5-?10m for each club.
So, if a former player has not got a new contract, then their claim will increase every month. If and when Wasps get back up and running, if there are still any players without contract, Wasps could offer them a new (much reduced pay) contract for the period they would have been under contract with Wasps, because they would have to pay that player anyway.
Some of the rugby debt will need paying straight away, but much will be contingent. Indeed, some players and creditors may choose not to pursue their claim.
Some players may have decided to 'retire'.
I do not think it will be as high as some think it will be.
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As I understand it not having a P Share does not proclude you from the Premiership but it does exclude you from TV etc funding.
Doesn?t the whole P share thing fall away once the term of the CVC investment ends?
If it doesn?t then the Prem won?t (shouldn?t) have the right to negotiate deals on behalf of any team that doesn?t get their share of television rights for the games they appear in.
P Share was there before CVC. Exeter had to buy one off of Yorkshire Carnegie I think. CVC involvement just means the Premiership get 27% less of the TV money. I must admit I do not see CVC earning their over a quarter share by expanding the game!!
Thanks.
So any promoted club needs to have either access to someone else's P shares or be able to buy a proportion off each of the other shareholders in order to compete on a level playing field?
If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?
I beginning to think we need a sugar daddy league where they can do what they like with wage caps etc and which they can ring fence if they want, but no bail outs or other money from the RFU, and then for what is now the Championship to become the top of a meritocratic pyramid.
Lots of things to be ironed out ref England players, but frankly given the way the EAs' players act with all that hollering and hooping I'd be happy for the RFU to say they're only picking for the meritocrat structure if push came to shove.
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If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?
As I understand it, no P share, no entry into the Prem
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If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?
As I understand it, no P share, no entry into the Prem
This quote from Exeter suggests different -
"In 2012, Exeter Chiefs purchased Leeds Carnegie?s P share, for around ?5 million. At the time Chiefs chief executive Tony Rowe said, ??It?s taken many, many months of wrangling over whether we could have them or not. It has been a struggle because we?re competing against clubs who are getting the full income from the Premiership, but we?re okay.?
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interesting. So maybe not a requirement to be allowed in, although why you would want to play in the prem & NOT get a cut of TV revenue?
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interesting. So maybe not a requirement to be allowed in, although why you would want to play in the prem & NOT get a cut of TV revenue?
Agreed - hogtied by the big boys!
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If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?
As I understand it, no P share, no entry into the Prem
I don't think London Welsh had a P share. My understanding has been that the P share gets you the TV income IF you are in the premiership.
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If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?
As I understand it, no P share, no entry into the Prem
I don't think London Welsh had a P share. My understanding has been that the P share gets you the TV income IF you are in the premiership.
Which means the Prem isn't a level playing field and is fundamentally corrupt.L Welsh never had a chance. It beggars belief that you can be in the Prem and your matches screened as normal, but you're not entitled to any income from it - the system sets up aspirational clubs to fail.
If you get promoted into the football premiership, you automatically get a share of the TV and advertising rights, and even if you get relegated you receive a 'parachute payment' to cover loss of revenue so you don't go bust.
The PRL is bizarre - if they want to have a fit and proper financial accountability, it starts with the PRL owning and issuing exactly the same share to every club each season, including promoted sides, with a parachute payment to clubs that get relegated. If they want to fix the game it starts at the top, and isn't left in the hands of a self interested clique of members.
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Wasps at sixways would kill me returning as season ticket holder. I get many fans travelled from south and I respect that. But for me it?s an hour each way. Solihull would have been ok to 30mins or so and even though I?m cov Ricoh was 30mins. Hour though is just too much for me personally and if true I?m a little gutted.
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Wasps at sixways would kill me returning as season ticket holder. I get many fans travelled from south and I respect that. But for me it?s an hour each way. Solihull would have been ok to 30mins or so and even though I?m cov Ricoh was 30mins. Hour though is just too much for me personally and if true I?m a little gutted.
We have calculated it will be 3.5 hrs each way if traffic is kind. Might be faster when new roads are figured out viz cameras! Worcester will make it a 9 to 10 hour round trip. Will still go. Mental I know. At least the matches will mostly be at 3 on a Saturday and not be prolonged by TMOs.
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Wasps at sixways would kill me returning as season ticket holder. I get many fans travelled from south and I respect that. But for me it?s an hour each way. Solihull would have been ok to 30mins or so and even though I?m cov Ricoh was 30mins. Hour though is just too much for me personally and if true I?m a little gutted.
An hour each way is not so bad. It would be much the same for me, either by motorway (M40/M42/M5), or the shorter (by distance) cross country route. But, I would do the latter and be on my bike and enjoy it (nice scenery). The Ricoh was 30-40 minutes away for me, but it was not a fun drive/ride (A46 then through Coventry on the A444 plus other roads).
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The drive for us from Lichfield is much straighter compared to Coventry. A bit longer but the simplicity makes it more attractive. I'll be making the effort to go, I'll just have to make sure I have a parking solution sorted.
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Let's see the dust settle first.
I will attend whatever games that feasible for me. Time spent chez nous or stupid o'clock KO times will knock some games out.
I think a few car shares from the Thames Valley area will possibly start up.
Interestingly google is showing 1h46m using the M40 curently from HW. 2h08m via the A40 - that's a joke as it will take a fair chunk of time to clear the Oxford ring road!
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/High+Wycombe/Worcester/@51.9629517,-2.2504672,8.6z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x4876600361b47cc3:0xcd47a66f382f4def!2m2!1d-0.748229!2d51.628611!1m5!1m1!1s0x4870505800bbccd5:0xab9aa4f4d0da911c!2m2!1d-2.221575!2d52.193636!3e0
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I'm in south Birmingham. From a purely selfish perspective it's less than 30 minutes to Sixways for me.
Doubt we'll be welcome though. IF we do play at Sixways next season, even though it will only be on a rental basis, I can still imagine the crap coming our way.
I know this won't be popular, but it makes me wonder whether a Worcester Wasps merged team might in the end have proven the lesser of two evils.
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If (IF) we do move to Wuss I think our family and maybe several others in this neck of the woods will be some of the few supporters who would benefit journey-wise. From almost 3 hours to AP and then 2 and a quarter to Coventry we would have well under 1 hour to travel, and for this reason I can't quite believe it would ever happen. But it would be selfishly nice.
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Likewise travel to Sixways (from mid Wales) would cut my travel time by about a hour each way. Parking on the trading estate near Sixways also convenient.
Still don't know if I am entirely comfortable with using Sixways - really feel for Warriors supporters.
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I'm in south Birmingham. From a purely selfish perspective it's less than 30 minutes to Sixways for me.
Doubt we'll be welcome though. IF we do play at Sixways next season, even though it will only be on a rental basis, I can still imagine the crap coming our way.
I know this won't be popular, but it makes me wonder whether a Worcester Wasps merged team might in the end have proven the lesser of two evils.
I?ve got to be honest I don?t really give a rats ass what supporters from any other club thinks.
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Agree, FishingWasp. My family would park by the Beefeater when picking up family members heading to Cov.
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I'm beginning to think we need a sugar daddy league where they can do what they like with wage caps etc and which they can ring fence if they want, but no bail outs or other money from the RFU, and then for what is now the Championship to become the top of a meritocratic pyramid.
This.
8 franchised teams managed in the same way as the Premier 15s. Completely ringfenced and guaranteed financially by sugar daddies.
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All professional sport is financed by sugar daddies
Even football with all the millions / billions spent each year is only possible due to mega rich owners.
It really is a shame, but professional rugby has always been and will always be a loss making business.
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I'm beginning to think we need a sugar daddy league where they can do what they like with wage caps etc and which they can ring fence if they want, but no bail outs or other money from the RFU, and then for what is now the Championship to become the top of a meritocratic pyramid.
This.
8 franchised teams managed in the same way as the Premier 15s. Completely ringfenced and guaranteed financially by sugar daddies.
Agreed. I do wonder if I even want Wasps to be in that at all. I mean, in the long term, for individual clubs, it isn't sustainable. The sugar daddy would have some form of attachment to the club, and when they depart, everything falls apart.
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Agreed. I do wonder if I even want Wasps to be in that at all. I mean, in the long term, for individual clubs, it isn't sustainable. The sugar daddy would have some form of attachment to the club, and when they depart, everything falls apart.
I can see it now. The EA's rising to the top of a cesspit of corruption.
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Not too sure if they didn't do that years ago.
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It really is a shame, but professional rugby has always been and will always be a loss making business.
With the RFU at the top, and club appointments made on the basis of the old boys club I fear you're right.
Lots of new blood, new ideas, and a little courage could sort it pretty quickly. But it'll never happen.
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From the WW Board it sounds as if Stourbridge have poured cold water on the proposals. In effect sent the new guys away to return with firm thought out proposals.
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I started supporting Wasps about 20 years ago.
Living in East London/Essex at the time, I supported them despite them being in high Wycombe, not because of it.
I then moved to Norwich, to buy continued as a season ticket holder at Adams park.
When the move to Coventry happened, I followed. Again, not because of the Ricoh, but despite it.
The stadium and the location has been irrelevant to me throughout the time I've followed the club.
I've also never met any of the owners, except Derek.
As such, I don't see the club owner as my reason for supporting them.
I've seen us win things, and I've seen us lose lots of games and play terribly, but my support for them had never wavered.
Players come and go, coaches come and go.
I don't know what it is that I'm attached to, and I have no idea if any new Wasps club would feel the same.
It will be a case of waiting and seeing if it feels like Wasps
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+1
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Exactly. Me too.
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+1
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As I understand it not having a P Share does not proclude you from the Premiership but it does exclude you from TV etc funding.
Doesn?t the whole P share thing fall away once the term of the CVC investment ends?
If it doesn?t then the Prem won?t (shouldn?t) have the right to negotiate deals on behalf of any team that doesn?t get their share of television rights for the games they appear in.
P Share was there before CVC. Exeter had to buy one off of Yorkshire Carnegie I think. CVC involvement just means the Premiership get 27% less of the TV money. I must admit I do not see CVC earning their over a quarter share by expanding the game!!
Thanks.
So any promoted club needs to have either access to someone else's P shares or be able to buy a proportion off each of the other shareholders in order to compete on a level playing field?
If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?
I beginning to think we need a sugar daddy league where they can do what they like with wage caps etc and which they can ring fence if they want, but no bail outs or other money from the RFU, and then for what is now the Championship to become the top of a meritocratic pyramid.
Lots of things to be ironed out ref England players, but frankly given the way the EAs' players act with all that hollering and hooping I'd be happy for the RFU to say they're only picking for the meritocrat structure if push came to shove.
About the new league, this is what I suggested on another thread.
The league can be closed and based on a similar concept where entry to the league is based on an application process. If your application is accepted you are invited to join. This could be marketed as a "Super League" style league.
You then have the Premiership below that which is everyone else. Better representation across the leagues and broadcasting can be done better with a PRTV style subscription - and can either be bought as a full package (showing all games) or you buy a club pack which is for your club of choice.
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You do wonder if this "Wasps to play at Sixways " could have arisen from either Atlas or a journalists mind putting 2+2=5. I can not see anything arising from the exceedingly silent Legends.
Somebody stirring perchance?
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I have reservations concerning Atlas anyway. It would feel as is we had Sisu as the landlord and Wasps as tenants, and I'm not sure I fancy that. The main advantage so far as I can guess is (presuming all this speculation proves reliable) that a tenancy of (as mooted) 5 years is 5 years breathing space as opposed to two years panic buying; this would allow solid planning for a secure future and permanent 'home' as opposed to hasty planning and more moving around again.
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Seemingly confirmed at Atlas Q and A
https://twitter.com/RhysBigGunSmith/status/1626950784221937670?t=Gu-sFyH5TfKUW7EuVsHZUw&s=19
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Seemingly confirmed at Atlas Q and A
https://twitter.com/RhysBigGunSmith/status/1626950784221937670?t=Gu-sFyH5TfKUW7EuVsHZUw&s=19
Well they got in before Wasps can let us know. Need to duck for the vitriol incoming.
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It?s a good option in reality. Prem standard stadium. Hate the plastic though.Stourbridge basically cease to exist!
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From the Sixways Forum -
- The club is going to be called Worcester Warriors after all
- The team will be Stourbridge (at whatever level they finish the season) renamed as Worcester Warriors with new coaches and players
- If Stourbridge members reject the plan, WW will start at the bottom of the pyramid
- Wasps will play at Sixways for a 3 year period
- Wasps do have a plan to have their own stadium and will have moved out by the time WW reach the Championship
- Wasps will support the Foundation and provide players to play for WW
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From the Sixways Forum -
- Wasps will support the Foundation and provide players to play for WW
I'll settle for us having some players of our own.
Seriously though, while it may be the best solution, it still feels a bit shitty
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https://twitter.com/WaspsKitMan/status/1626989189978783745
Pudsey says this is not correct
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https://twitter.com/WaspsKitMan/status/1626989189978783745
Pudsey says this is not correct
Yep
Interesting the Worcester news guy has taken their lead and published.
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Wasps tweet
https://twitter.com/WaspsRugby/status/1627004813320896512?t=YRVu_ygD2JZsmgIT84QU2Q&s=19
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Is the Paul Smith being abusive in that thread the same Mr Smith reporting around Coventry and somewhat involved after that?
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The Wasps tweet has disappeared, so here it is (clever lad snapped a photo):
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Is the Paul Smith being abusive in that thread the same Mr Smith reporting around Coventry and somewhat involved after that?
I don't think so, but if he is suggesting we should groundshare with Boreham Wood FC, then I am all in favour. The fact that I live so close to the ground I can currently hear the crowd singing is purely coincidental.
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The Legends must be tearing their hair out. Let?s not forget they are doing all of this out of the goodness of their hearts and it can?t be easy. I?m happy to wait until they know what?s happening before we are told. There?s some bizarre stuff out there (not on here). We?re just going to have to wait for official word.
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Don't forget the very very high level Board members that were named. They are corporate giants and stunts like Atlas's will not go down well.
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Very true. Atlas seem like rank amateurs
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The Legends must be tearing their hair out.
Pretty much rules out Lol, Shaun or Kinga being involved with them then....
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Unkind!
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this is all rather confusing.
Wasps announced they had agreed a stadium share back in December and it would be announced in due course.
You would assume that to get approval from the RFU they would need to be able to prove they had somewhere suitable to play.
now we we get a statement saying nothing has been agreed.....
Hope we get some clarity soon
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this is all rather confusing.
Wasps announced they had agreed a stadium share back in December and it would be announced in due course.
You would assume that to get approval from the RFU they would need to be able to prove they had somewhere suitable to play.
now we we get a statement saying nothing has been agreed.....
Hope we get some clarity soon
I think what it means is that Wasps have both the Moors ground in Damson Lane and Sixways offered to them, and contracts have been drawn up and heads of agreement signed. All parties likely know this.
I also suspect that Sixways is the preferred choice, with Moors as the backup. Again, all parties will know this. Moors could go ahead right now, and probably could have back in December. Sixways is waiting on Atlas actually owning it. They have yet to pay Begbies the contract price. Why the delay? I suspect Atlas are worried about a legal challenge by DCMS, or it may be that DCMS have yet to agree to remove their charge over the ground, without which Atlas will not buy it. I doubt they will be willing to a transfer of the debt to them as owners, they will want it free and clear. No challenge though from the RFU, who have clearly agreed by accepting the proposal by Wasps. But, the delay itself could kill the deal. Both Wasps and Moors have to know soon which ground it will be. Season ticket sales, players who need to relocate, contracts for services at the ground, staff recruiting.
And who proposed the 3 year 'limit'? Wasps or Atlas? What limit would there be at Moors? There was initially talk it might have only been a one year plus one year extension (just in case Moors sold their ground to developers and moved).
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this is all rather confusing.
Wasps announced they had agreed a stadium share back in December and it would be announced in due course.
You would assume that to get approval from the RFU they would need to be able to prove they had somewhere suitable to play.
now we we get a statement saying nothing has been agreed.....
Hope we get some clarity soon
Wasps did NOT announce anything in December - it was the Telegraph. Wasps have been extremely silent on everything associated with getting back up and running.
Certain "Legends" on twatter have said patience and all will be clear very soon.
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this is all rather confusing.
Wasps announced they had agreed a stadium share back in December and it would be announced in due course.
You would assume that to get approval from the RFU they would need to be able to prove they had somewhere suitable to play.
now we we get a statement saying nothing has been agreed.....
Hope we get some clarity soon
Wasps did NOT announce anything in December - it was the Telegraph. Wasps have been extremely silent on everything associated with getting back up and running.
Certain "Legends" on twatter have said patience and all will be clear very soon.
The only way to do it.
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this is all rather confusing.
Wasps announced they had agreed a stadium share back in December and it would be announced in due course.
You would assume that to get approval from the RFU they would need to be able to prove they had somewhere suitable to play.
now we we get a statement saying nothing has been agreed.....
Hope we get some clarity soon
Wasps did NOT announce anything in December - it was the Telegraph. Wasps have been extremely silent on everything associated with getting back up and running.
Certain "Legends" on twatter have said patience and all will be clear very soon.
The only way to do it.
It really isn't. They could easily be putting out regular updates without giving anything that needed to be secret away.
"Really productive day, spoke to three agents, looks like we're gonna have a hell of a squad"
"The hunt for a venue is getting closer to a conclusion. Definitely staying in the midlands"
That kind of thing.
Not only would it keep the existing fans engaged, it would let us get to know the people who are actually doing the work. It'd give the wider media stories to publish, there'd be speculation. Wasps would be current, at the front of people's minds, and far more folk would be there to listen when they have things they want people to care about.
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this is all rather confusing.
Wasps announced they had agreed a stadium share back in December and it would be announced in due course.
You would assume that to get approval from the RFU they would need to be able to prove they had somewhere suitable to play.
now we we get a statement saying nothing has been agreed.....
Hope we get some clarity soon
Wasps did NOT announce anything in December - it was the Telegraph. Wasps have been extremely silent on everything associated with getting back up and running.
Certain "Legends" on twatter have said patience and all will be clear very soon.
The only way to do it.
It really isn't. They could easily be putting out regular updates without giving anything that needed to be secret away.
"Really productive day, spoke to three agents, looks like we're gonna have a hell of a squad"
"The hunt for a venue is getting closer to a conclusion. Definitely staying in the midlands"
That kind of thing.
Not only would it keep the existing fans engaged, it would let us get to know the people who are actually doing the work. It'd give the wider media stories to publish, there'd be speculation. Wasps would be current, at the front of people's minds, and far more folk would be there to listen when they have things they want people to care about.
Remember all those good news stories that were coming out as we were circling the plughole? Expectations got fairly high and then cam crashing down.
I don't blame them for being quiet until everything, absolutely everything, is set in concrete. No more being left at the alter as it was described at the time when HSBC pulled the plug on the financing that had already been agreed and announced.
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Can see both sides of this. Small updates keeping the club in people?s minds could certainly add value as VV says. There are obviously factors preventing that at the moment - one of them may be simple resource to do so. Personally I look at the people involved and I?m comfortable with the silence as I trust the right things are being done. I see a few on other media outlets wanting more info though so there are obviously some / many who want more.
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One reason why we haven?t seen any announcements or info may be that they have not hired any marketing resource yet, which would be sensible until they got the green light from the RFU.
Based on Pudsey?s recent tweet he was being taught ground-care which suggests they were trying to be as economical as possible, asking their one employee to cover more than he would have been expected to as Wasps kit-man.
Messaging is one thing you don?t want to get wrong in this space or current climate - saying nothing is better than getting it wrong in my book.
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Just been tiptoeing through the Wuss thread and the latest worry appears to be that Wasps have a Cunning Plan to move in, gradually make ourselves at home, and in 3 years buy the Stadium and take over completely. Don't see that happening. One can only have sympathy with the Wuss point of view tho' 'far fetched' and 'cloud cuckoo land' do come to mind.
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Wasps did NOT announce anything in December -
err, yes they did. The Wasps website posted the news item "Wasps confirm return for 23/24 season" on 16th Dec. It contained the following:
"a groundshare agreement has been reached with a Midlands venue ? which will be announced in the near future ? to host its home games."
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Wasps did NOT announce anything in December -
err, yes they did. The Wasps website posted the news item "Wasps confirm return for 23/24 season" on 16th Dec. It contained the following:
"a groundshare agreement has been reached with a Midlands venue ? which will be announced in the near future ? to host its home games."
They did not state where which was the original post.
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They did not state where which was the original post.
Read my post again Neils
"this is all rather confusing.
Wasps announced they had agreed a stadium share back in December and it would be announced in due course.
You would assume that to get approval from the RFU they would need to be able to prove they had somewhere suitable to play.
now we we get a statement saying nothing has been agreed.....
Hope we get some clarity soon"
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They did not state where which was the original post.
Read my post again Neils
"this is all rather confusing.
Wasps announced they had agreed a stadium share back in December and it would be announced in due course.
You would assume that to get approval from the RFU they would need to be able to prove they had somewhere suitable to play.
now we we get a statement saying nothing has been agreed.....
Hope we get some clarity soon"
But the thread is Sixwas.
Clarity this week is necessary. Was supposed to be Tuesday but I suspect Atlas may have annoyed some people.
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Atlas seem to be playing with fire, and risk losing a possible tenant methinks.
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The possible issue Wasps have is if they have secured enough funding to be fairly confident of being promoted within 3 years. To avoid the same problems Ealing have had, they would need to be playing in an appropriately sized stadium. Which Sixways certainly is.
So maybe Soluhill was seen as a ground suitable for a phoenix club at the start but ambitions have moved forward.
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The possible issue Wasps have is if they have secured enough funding to be fairly confident of being promoted within 3 years. To avoid the same problems Ealing have had, they would need to be playing in an appropriately sized stadium. Which Sixways certainly is.
So maybe Soluhill was seen as a ground suitable for a phoenix club at the start but ambitions have moved forward.
I'm all for ambition, but that sounds a bit delusional to me :)
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Apologies if missed in thread anywhere. But what is puzzling me is the mention that wasps will train and base operations at six ways. Why need to train there given Henley? That doesn?t stack up to me.
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I have faith in the new Wasps leadership and I would rather we only make statements when they are true and accurate. For me, this is what builds trust with the club as I would know to discount (or at least take with a shovel of salt) any rumour relating to the club until confirmed/rejected by the club itself. I trust that the work being done now is formalising a deal with the chosen venue as any deal was subject to RFU approving our proposal.
What appears to me is that Atlas are either na?ve or cynical. I'm leaning towards the latter but feel that there is some of the former at play (I'm no business expert, this is my own perception). It might be true that Wasps have an agreement in principle to play at Sixways - perhaps Sixways was a venue included in our proposal to the RFU. However, I don't think including this as part of Atlas's supporters meeting was the correct thing to do as it's only an agreement in principle - it's not a given. Particularly when it must've been know that photos would be taken and shared online, though it wouldn't surprise me if this was part of the plan.
I think Wasps need to play at a venue that allows them to grow sustainably. If that's at the Moors, so be it. The Premiership will be a goal of the Phoenix club but there's no point chasing after it if we end up in the same hole as before.
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I have faith in the new Wasps leadership and I would rather we only make statements when they are true and accurate. For me, this is what builds trust with the club as I would know to discount (or at least take with a shovel of salt) any rumour relating to the club until confirmed/rejected by the club itself. I trust that the work being done now is formalising a deal with the chosen venue as any deal was subject to RFU approving our proposal.
What appears to me is that Atlas are either na?ve or cynical. I'm leaning towards the latter but feel that there is some of the former at play (I'm no business expert, this is my own perception). It might be true that Wasps have an agreement in principle to play at Sixways - perhaps Sixways was a venue included in our proposal to the RFU. However, I don't think including this as part of Atlas's supporters meeting was the correct thing to do as it's only an agreement in principle - it's not a given. Particularly when it must've been know that photos would be taken and shared online, though it wouldn't surprise me if this was part of the plan.
I think Wasps need to play at a venue that allows them to grow sustainably. If that's at the Moors, so be it. The Premiership will be a goal of the Phoenix club but there's no point chasing after it if we end up in the same hole as before.
+1
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Covguy: The comment about Wasps training as well as playing at Sixway was made by Atlas, not Wasps. Yet another inaccurate comment like the one that there is an agreement in principle that we will play at Sixways.
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James ... that is brilliant, and exactly how I (for one) feel. I don't see Wasps as Warrior's Saviour but I think they could be up the creek without us. Warriors don't seem to trust Atlas and neither do I (fwiw) and I would imagine that the Legends are checking all minutia and each word exchanged. Presumably Legends have not committed to anything yet. Right now a bit of bridge building needs to be done...... by Atlas.
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Must admit Atlas don?t fill me with any confidence. If at all possible I?d like to swerve them. The venue people don?t seem to be discussing is the CBSA. Short term of course. I agree, there?s no way we?ll be training anywhere but Henley - another statement from Atlas that makes me want to avoid them is the one around that.
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I wonder what the cost difference would be between playing at Solihull and playing at Sixways.
Could we make Sixways economically viable? It seems like a hell of a gamble to take to move to a new city, hire a big stadium with no certainty as to how full it would be. We're just emerging from the wreckage of having done just that.
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I wonder what the cost difference would be between playing at Solihull and playing at Sixways.
Could we make Sixways economically viable? It seems like a hell of a gamble to take to move to a new city, hire a big stadium with no certainty as to how full it would be. We're just emerging from the wreckage of having done just that.
I suppose it also depends on the terms. What would Wasps be responsible for? At a HUGE guess (and maybe wrong), let's say we play at the Moors as a tenant. Therefore, limited responsibility for the ground (apart from pitch maintenance perhaps) whereas Sixways we might be responsible for the ground as well on top. Playing in Solihull might cost the same as playing at Sixways (on face value) but the added responsibilities of playing at Sixways might make it more expensive. This is just one take, I could be totally off the mark, but the general principle remains the same.
It will also depend on who we are dealing with as well, I'd imagine. One group might be easier to work with, leading to stable/amicable relationships. From what I've seen so far, Atlas might not be a good option for that.
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What surface do the Moors play on? Sixways is plastic.
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What surface do the Moors play on? Sixways is plastic.
Mud and grass I think.
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What surface do the Moors play on? Sixways is plastic.
Coconut rather than rubber crumbs though.
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Purely a theory, but Coventry Rugby Club weren't happy with us moving to Solihull when it was first rumoured as they felt it was encroaching on their turf (even though Bedford and Ampthill and then Ealing, London Scottish and Richmond are all closer to each other than Solihull Moors FC is to Butts Park Arena). Suppose they kick up a fuss with the RFU leading to Solihull no longer being an option?
In that event Wasps would need to find a ground in the West Midlands that they can play at, sufficiently far enough away from Coventry. If Birmingham had been ruled out that doesn't leave a lot of alternative options.
Whilst I am not thrilled at the thought of Wasps moving to Sixways, even temporarily, if it's a choice of Sixways or no Wasps at all, it's not really a choice in my opinion
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Purely a theory, but Coventry Rugby Club weren't happy with us moving to Solihull when it was first rumoured as they felt it was encroaching on their turf (even though Bedford and Ampthill and then Ealing, London Scottish and Richmond are all closer to each other than Solihull Moors FC is to Butts Park Arena). Suppose they kick up a fuss with the RFU leading to Solihull no longer being an option?
In that event Wasps would need to find a ground in the West Midlands that they can play at, sufficiently far enough away from Coventry. If Birmingham had been ruled out that doesn't leave a lot of alternative options.
Whilst I am not thrilled at the thought of Wasps moving to Sixways, even temporarily, if it's a choice of Sixways or no Wasps at all, it's not really a choice in my opinion
I would really hope that the RFU would query and challenge that complaint considering how contradictory Coventry RFC's statement was in the local paper. They were annoyed we were looking at Solihull because it wasn't following the regulation at the time which would've required us to restart in Coventry. But they didn't want us in Coventry either so we'd be damned if we did and damned if we didn't.
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Unusually I missed this article in the Mail. Just a small part but kind of sums up WW -
CHRIS FOY: Red card may spell end for Manu Tuilagi's England career https://mol.im/a/11769809 via https://dailym.ai/android
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Another article saying much the same except "West Country "???
https://lastwordonsports.com/rugby/2023/02/21/positive-news-doncaster-knights-wasps-championship-rugby-futures/
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Unusually I missed this article in the Mail. Just a small part but kind of sums up WW -
CHRIS FOY: Red card may spell end for Manu Tuilagi's England career https://mol.im/a/11769809 via https://dailym.ai/android
Just been listening to the Telegraph rugby pod while I was out hiking and they discussed that red card so I looked it up when I got back.
That?s got to be 4 matches minimum which means he won?t be playing in the 6N so that must be the end of his international career, for England at least.
https://twitter.com/jaredwright17/status/1626967250832859136?s=61&t=mSRoKXOU1GtOGoQxSi0zAg
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Yet another twist.
Worcester and Wasps? future in doubt as councillors plot to seize Sixways from owners
https://www.cityam.com/worcester-and-wasps-future-in-doubt-as-councillors-plot-to-seize-sixways-from-owners/
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Nice to see a council in this country with millions to spare for a token measure. I hope the general council tax payers have a voice about cuts happening when funds are wasted on such a senseless exercise.
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Nice to see a council in this country with millions to spare for a token measure.
From that report it looks like the Mayor (not wanting to spend any money he has access to) is asking the council to spend their money buying it. I presume the compulsory purchase process is long & convoluted? Which won't help anyone keep rugby at Sixways! There's not time to mess around with this, which he must know so its just a political gesture to show he tried!
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In other, completely unrelated, news I note from the Electoral Commission website that there's local elections in Worcester this year.
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Worth noting as well that the councillors who have come up with this idea are councillors of Worcester City Council and Sixways is in the district of Wychavon District Council.
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I was originally quite accepting of going to Wuss for, say, three years but I'm now hoping that we clew up somewhere quite different (tho' not London which imo is already at saturation point for rugby clubs).
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I was originally quite accepting of going to Wuss for, say, three years but I'm now hoping that we clew up somewhere quite different (tho' not London which imo is already at saturation point for rugby clubs).
+1
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Plus 1, Gaz. There have (often by chance) been so many obstacles and so much vocal opprobrium thrown at us lately that I have gone off the whole Wuss exercise. And it would be perfect for my family to go to even for maybe 3 years - hoping we could be sorted out in 3 years. Any Wuss supporters in our favour seem few, and very quiet! I'm fed up with the whole Wuss thing. I don't believe Wasps wants to buy Sixways either. No money! I hope we settle elsewhere, and quickly but Wuss will have to find someone somewhere PDQ. I hope wee steer clear. Hope I haven't offended anyone too much. Just my opinion .
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Plus 1, Gaz. There have (often by chance) been so many obstacles and so much vocal opprobrium thrown at us lately that I have gone off the whole Wuss exercise. And it would be perfect for my family to go to even for maybe 3 years - hoping we could be sorted out in 3 years. Any Wuss supporters in our favour seem few, and very quiet! I'm fed up with the whole Wuss thing. I don't believe Wasps wants to buy Sixways either. No money! I hope we settle elsewhere, and quickly but Wuss will have to find someone somewhere PDQ. I hope wee steer clear. Hope I haven't offended anyone too much. Just my opinion .
I think the whole Worcester thing is an unmitigated mess with no certainty of continued ownership of the site yet plus things associated with Stourbridge could still unravel quickly.
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Too many bear traps for me right now. Ways in which it could go horribly wrong seem plentiful.
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Too right. Avoid! Can't see much (if any) benefit for Wasps but an awful lot of possible drawbacks .
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I agree Sixways isn't the ideal venue to rock up at and Wasps should definitely not purchase the Stadium outright but I think people are forgetting that there really isn't many options out there for us and perhaps a short term lease in Worcester is about the best we can hope for.
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I think that our new owners and the Legends are wise enough not to go down any road that has jeopardy attached to it.
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Yesterday in Worcester local news -
Worcester Warriors: Stourbridge will not rush Sixways move
25th February
By Marcello Cossali-Francis
@Mcossalifrancis
Reporter
MEMBERS of the management committee at Stourbridge met with Bill Sweeney and RFU representatives on Friday evening.
The meeting saw both parties touch base amidst proposals to relocate the club's first team to Sixways under the Worcester Warriors name by the new owners Jim O'Toole and James Sandford (Atlas).
Club chairman Miles Edge was keen to emphasise that the meeting was very much an introductory one, with plenty of things to happen before any decision making process.
"They (the RFU) came and met our management committee, to touch base on the situation," he said.
"There are lots of things yet to happen on both ends; the RFU, Atlas and ourselves, but this is obviously an opportunity for the club. Covid and injuries have impacted us, as well as other factors and obviously, you look at our club and see what we should be capable of.
"But nothing will be done before we do our own due diligence and we put everything in front of our members."
There remains no date on a vote, with the details of the agreement still being written up.
Atlas themselves are still in a 90-day completion period to confirm their take-over at Sixways and the RFU are still to sanction the deal, after turning down their application for Warriors to play in The Championship earlier this month.
So this process still has a way to go before anything can begin to move forward.
Stourbridge remain at the bottom of the National League 2 after a 17-10 defeat to Luctonians on Saturday.
They remain favourites to be relegated from the semi-professional game and into Midlands 1, one league above the likes of Worcester, Malvern, Droitwich and Evesham.
But Atlas have speicified that will have little impact on any of the future plans.
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Interesting. Atlas have 90 days to complete (thus by the end of April 2023) the deal with the administrators. It is clear that they have yet to complete. Until they do, Wasps cannot announce where they will play, nor sell season tickets based on that. It is possible that Wasps have signed a deal with Atlas, contingent on Atlas being the owners, and that the RFU raise no objections.
Thus it would be correct that Wasps may have signed a deal (Atlas have said), and that there is no (finalised) agreement in place (Wasps have said).
This is going to be a boring 8 weeks ahead.
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Interesting summary by Andy Goode -
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-silence-is-deafening-at-worcester-andy-goode/
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Tweet from Andy Goode:
Hearing/hoping Atlas may have got cold feet and Jim O?Toole is looking for other investors.
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Tweet from Andy Goode:
Hearing/hoping Atlas may have got cold feet and Jim O?Toole is looking for other investors.
Doesn't help us if we were going that way.
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Fans raise fresh concerns over Worcester takeover https://mol.im/a/11849299 via https://dailym.ai/android
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Yes read that earlier and well covered by the WW board. Their concerns coming true slowly.
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Yes read that earlier and well covered by the WW board. Their concerns coming true slowly.
Which is why Wasps should cut away from that deal and take what is on offer from Moors. Through all of this the silence is deafening.
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Yes read that earlier and well covered by the WW board. Their concerns coming true slowly.
Agreed and Moors manager told a fans Q&A thar they were still firmly talking to Wasps after the Atlas fans forum so there is hope.
Which is why Wasps should cut away from that deal and take what is on offer from Moors. Through all of this the silence is deafening.
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I think it's interesting that the only real difference between Wuss and us, is that the RFU have approved us, and not them.
And I don't trust the RFU at all.
Both clubs have a group approved by the administrators, that contains people previously connected with the club and people with a business background.
Neither of them have actually said anything about what is happening, and yet we all write Wuss off as being doomed for failure, and Wasps as being honourable, efficient people who will make it all good.
Because the RFU approved of them.
The same organisation who have created the situation in the first place, and also killed off the national game. The same organisation who applaud cheats, and change the rules for their pet thugs when it suits them to.