Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: jamestaylor002 on February 20, 2023, 02:48:13 PM
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I'm sure you're all aware, I was one of the fans that Wasps picked up during the Coventry era. I've fallen in love with the club and look to learn as much about it as possible about our history to gain a greater appreciation of Wasps.
First question, was it the professional era coming in that resulted in the split of Wasps into the professional and amateur branches? Was it a case of some within Wasps being resistant to professionalism (not saying that's wrong btw) and staying put - creating Wasps FC - for others to go on to create the professional Wasps?
Second question, what is it that makes Wasps a historically nomadic club? Clubs in the London area seemed to have no issue finding homes for themselves (appreciate London Irish and Sa****ns have moved fairly recently but were quite fixed up until then) but it seemed like we moved around quite a lot (Sudbury - Loftus Road - Adams Park - CBSA - TBC). I see on Wikipedia that the same owners of QPR bought Wasps when they first split, so that may be the reason why we ended up at Loftus Road?
Third question, what were the causes of Wasps initial threats of administration during the AP days that resulted in the now ill-fated move to Coventry?
Fourth question (more of a looking to the future question, but knowledge of Wasps history helps), do time served Wasps fans believe that the future of Wasps is in the Midlands (wherever that may be) rather than Wasps roots in and around London? I obviously have no qualms about Wasps being in the Midlands, being closer to where I live in Staffs, but distance wouldn't put me off attending games if Wasps did move closer to London.
Fifth question, is there anything else that's interesting to know that I haven't asked about already?
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Some answers re moves:
London Irish were at Old Deer Park in Richmond along with London Scottish and London Welsh before they moved to Reading and then Brentford. Scottish went bust and were subsumed into Irish. Welsh tried to continue, played in Oxford and then got promoted into the Premiership which proved disastrous for them. Wasps had an old-fashioned ground in Repton Avenue, just north of Harrow. They got taken over by Chris Wright and merged with QPR, hence the move to Loftus Road. I am not certain about the reason for the move to High Wycombe but I seem to recall that a Premiership football club was having a lot of work done on their original ground and wanted to ground-share with QPR. I think they offered a financial incentive for Wasps to move - hence the move to High Wycombe. The Wycombe owner seemed apply to rent the stadium to us but neither he nor Wycombe fans ever seemed happy at us being there. There were ambitious plans to build a brand new stadium near Booker airfield but nothing ever happened with them. I can't remember the circumstances of Chris Wright selling Wasps but that led to the Coventry move. Re our most-disliked club Saracens, they moved from somewhere in North London - when they were in the Championship - and then shared Vicarage Road with Watford football club for a few years before moving to their present ground.
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When the Club split, Chris Wright was the owner of QPR, and it was the time that Gerry Francis, the QPR manager, was adamant that QPR could easily get to the, then First Division.
As a result of the "buyout" The old Wasps ground was sold to QPR, and the funds slpit between Wasps and QPR, with the resultant move of the amateur side to Ealing.
As usual relationships between the soccer and rugby side caused friction with the fans demanding Wrights head, so he got reid of the footy club, but Wasps continued to play at Loftus Road until Fulham needed to redevelop their ground and agreed a share with the soccer club, forcing Wasps to move to Wycombe.
As a result of a divorce settlement Chris was forced to sell his ownership of Wasps
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My understanding was that Chris Wright only wanted to sell 10% to Steve Hayes. Lol and Hayes were as thick as whatsits as they are both ardent Chelsea fans. Somehow Chris was persuaded to sell out to Hayes.
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IIRC the stadium at Handy Cross failed because they also wanted to build an office park and there were lots of objections about whether the office space was needed and the added traffic at Handy Cross M4 junction, which was already a nightmare.
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IIRC the stadium at Handy Cross failed because they also wanted to build an office park and there were lots of objections about whether the office space was needed and the added traffic at Handy Cross M4 junction, which was already a nightmare.
Yes they tried but the Council were against it despite local support as I remember it. After that our then owner threw in the towel immediately.
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Some answers re moves:
London Irish were at Old Deer Park in Richmond along with London Scottish and London Welsh before they moved to Reading and then Brentford.
Irish were at The Avenue in Sunbury and Scottish were at the Richmond Athletic Ground.
My understanding was that Chris Wright only wanted to sell 10% to Steve Hayes. Lol and Hayes were as thick as whatsits as they are both ardent Chelsea fans. Somehow Chris was persuaded to sell out to Hayes.
Chris covers this in his autobiography. Essentially Steve Hayes came on board as a minority shareholder, but because really persistent about buying the club. Chris had no interest in selling but gave in when John O'Connell, the other shareholder, told him he was selling up.
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Thanks all for your responses so far!
So our story of moving around isn't much different to other clubs around London?
It appears to me that Wasps moves since Loftus Road have been down to influence from third parties or other circumstances outside of the club's control.
I assume that Wasps moves appear more high profile compared to other London clubs because Wasps moved up to the Midlands (particularly to a ground that has lots of baggage attached to it), unlike the other clubs who stayed in or around London? I also find it a bit unfair the way Wasps are viewed due to their nomadic nature seeing as, in my view, the moves weren't necessarily the choice of the club per se. But I guess that it's an easy target when other clubs have had fairly long term ties to their local area (Tigers/Northampton/Gloucester/Bath).
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I think the problem London clubs have had is that, with the exception of Harlequins, none of them have had a ground big enough to host top level Rugby, hence the moving around a lot.
Irish are on their fourth permanent home ground in the professional era (The Avenue, Stoop, Madejski and Brentford)
Saracens are on their fourth (Bramley Road, Enfield FC, Vicarage Road and Copthall)
Richmond have had two permanent grounds (Richmond Athletic Ground and Madejski)
London Scottish have had two permanent grounds (Richmond Athletic Ground and the Stoop)
London Welsh have had two (Old Deer Park and the Kassam)
London Broncos (since the start of Super League in 1996) have had 7 home grounds (The Valley - Stoop - The Valley - Stoop - Griffin Park - Stoop - The Hive - Ealing Trailfinders - The Rock (Rosslyn Park) - Ealing Trailfinders - Plough Lane)
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Wasps amateur club owned their ground at Repton Avenue in Sudbury, near Harrow, having bought it in the 1920s. However it was totally unsuitable for the professional era due to size, facilities (apart from an excellent club house) and access.
There were initial plans to turn the pitch 90? and build new stands when the game went professional. Then Chris Wright offered to buy Wasps so we could play at Loftus Road and the merged QPR and Wasps entity became Loftus Road plc and floated on the Stock Market.
Wasps split into professional (Wasps RFC) and amateur (Wasps FC) organisations since the club had several sides and wished to keep that going. The amateurs still played at Sudbury and the professionals trained there. Wasps won the league in the first season of professional rugby. The Premiership was set up the next season.
Unfortunately, QPR manager Gerry Francis' uncontrolled profligate spending meant the organisation leaked money and the share value fell to zero. As a result Sudbury ground, but not the clubhouse, was sold to pay off QPR's debts and is now a housing estate. The team had to train on the public park the other side of the clubhouse since Francis wouldn't accommodate them at QPR's training ground.
Then Fulham FC were having work done at Craven Cottage and a financial inducement was offered to Wasps to move and we relocated to High Wycombe and won lots of trophies (4 league and 2 European champions) during that period.
In the meantime, Chris Wright split from QPR but ended up owing their training ground at Twyford Avenue, Acton. Wasps FC moved there permanently and the professionals were based and trained there.
Chris Wright had to sell the club eventually and Steve Hayes bought it and Wycombe Wanderers with a plan to develop a former airfield into a sports and retail park with a new stadium close to the M40 but his applications were thrown out by the local council and he walked away.
At this point Wasps secured a bonus point loss on the last day of the season to avoid relegation and were pursued by HMRC for tax. Wasps FC came up with the money at the last minute (almost literally) and a former player lead a consortium which ended with Derek Richardson buying the club.
Derek realised owning the ground was key to revenue and ended up buying the Ricoh Arena in Coventry, which also had conference and exhibition halls, hotel and casino. Unfortunately he did not have enough wealth to do this and keep funding the club so he initiated an ambitious, but ill-fated, scheme to sell bonds to fund the stadium purchase. At the same time, Sisu the Coventry City owners, were attempting to scupper the purchase through endless legal actions. Then we had the pandemic and downturn of the economy
The culmination of all of this was the club had no money and huge debts and went into administration.
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Wasps amateur club owned their ground at Repton Avenue in Sudbury, near Harrow, having bought it in the 1920s. However it was totally unsuitable for the professional era due to size, facilities (apart from an excellent club house) and access.
There were initial plans to turn the pitch 90? and build new stands when the game went professional. Then Chris Wright offered to buy Wasps so we could play at Loftus Road and the merged QPR and Wasps entity became Loftus Road plc and floated on the Stock Market.
Wasps split into professional (Wasps RFC) and amateur (Wasps FC) organisations since the club had several sides and wished to keep that going. The amateurs still played at Sudbury and the professionals trained there. Wasps won the league in the first season of professional rugby. The Premiership was set up the next season.
Unfortunately, QPR manager Gerry Francis' uncontrolled profligate spending meant the organisation leaked money and the share value fell to zero. As a result Sudbury ground, but not the clubhouse, was sold to pay off QPR's debts and is now a housing estate. The team had to train on the public park the other side of the clubhouse since Francis wouldn't accommodate them at QPR's training ground.
Then Fulham FC were having work done at Craven Cottage and a financial inducement was offered to Wasps to move and we relocated to High Wycombe and won lots of trophies (4 league and 2 European champions) during that period.
In the meantime, Chris Wright split from QPR but ended up owing their training ground at Twyford Avenue, Acton. Wasps FC moved there permanently and the professionals were based and trained there.
Chris Wright had to sell the club eventually and Steve Hayes bought it and Wycombe Wanderers with a plan to develop a former airfield into a sports and retail park with a new stadium close to the M40 but his applications were thrown out by the local council and he walked away.
At this point Wasps secured a bonus point loss on the last day of the season to avoid relegation and were pursued by HMRC for tax. Wasps FC came up with the money at the last minute (almost literally) and a former player lead a consortium which ended with Derek Richardson buying the club.
Derek realised owning the ground was key to revenue and ended up buying the Ricoh Arena in Coventry, which also had conference and exhibition halls, hotel and casino. Unfortunately he did not have enough wealth to do this and keep funding the club so he initiated an ambitious, but ill-fated, scheme to sell bonds to fund the stadium purchase. At the same time, Sisu the Coventry City owners, were attempting to scupper the purchase through endless legal actions. Then we had the pandemic and downturn of the economy
The culmination of all of this was the club had no money and huge debts and went into administration.
Great summary, thank you!
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+1
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Well done Mellie - excellent summary.
Only comment is that it wasn't a "former airfield" it was, and is, an operating light aircraft/helicopter airfield.
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I think the problem London clubs have had is that, with the exception of Harlequins, none of them have had a ground big enough to host top level Rugby, hence the moving around a lot.
Irish are on their fourth permanent home ground in the professional era (The Avenue, Stoop, Madejski and Brentford)
Saracens are on their fourth (Bramley Road, Enfield FC, Vicarage Road and Copthall)
Richmond have had two permanent grounds (Richmond Athletic Ground and Madejski)
London Scottish have had two permanent grounds (Richmond Athletic Ground and the Stoop)
London Welsh have had two (Old Deer Park and the Kassam)
London Broncos (since the start of Super League in 1996) have had 7 home grounds (The Valley - Stoop - The Valley - Stoop - Griffin Park - Stoop - The Hive - Ealing Trailfinders - The Rock (Rosslyn Park) - Ealing Trailfinders - Plough Lane)
I appreciate that. So perhaps it is the Coventry move itself that has caused some ill-feeling towards the club? There may have been no issues about us moving around a lot if Wasps had stayed in or near London considering Irish and Saracens have moved the same number of times as Wasps (assuming the Phoenix club finds a venue)?
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The problem Wasps had is Repton Avenue was unsuitable without substantial development and access to the ground almost impossible for the numbers required.
We have consequently been shafted several times by football clubs. Amazingly we managed to win a major cup while training among the dog turds on the public park!
Unfortunately, Derek had a good concept but not the wealth or fortitude to make it sustainable and attracted a good deal of ire from football fans and London based supporters by moving to Coventry, having failed to find a stadium that fitted his vision closer to home.
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The problem Wasps had is Repton Avenue was unsuitable without substantial development and access to the ground almost impossible for the numbers required.
We have consequently been shafted several times by football clubs. Amazingly we managed to win a major cup while training among the dog turds on the public park!
Unfortunately, Derek had a good concept but not the wealth or fortitude to make it sustainable and attracted a good deal of ire from football fans and London based supporters by moving to Coventry, having failed to find a stadium that fitted his vision closer to home.
Plus he unfortunately had about 18 months when all the ancillary pieces were shut down due to covid. Yes vast amounts were due but for the RFU to deny it had an impact is bizarre.
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The problem Wasps had is Repton Avenue was unsuitable without substantial development and access to the ground almost impossible for the numbers required.
We have consequently been shafted several times by football clubs. Amazingly we managed to win a major cup while training among the dog turds on the public park!
Unfortunately, Derek had a good concept but not the wealth or fortitude to make it sustainable and attracted a good deal of ire from football fans and London based supporters by moving to Coventry, having failed to find a stadium that fitted his vision closer to home.
Plus he unfortunately had about 18 months when all the ancillary pieces were shut down due to covid. Yes vast amounts were due but for the RFU to deny it had an impact is bizarre.
Absolutely. But it fits their narrative, and I suspect some of the other owners won't have forgiven him for insisting that salary cap issues be dealt with and not swept under the carpet.
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The problem Wasps had is Repton Avenue was unsuitable without substantial development and access to the ground almost impossible for the numbers required.
We have consequently been shafted several times by football clubs. Amazingly we managed to win a major cup while training among the dog turds on the public park!
Unfortunately, Derek had a good concept but not the wealth or fortitude to make it sustainable and attracted a good deal of ire from football fans and London based supporters by moving to Coventry, having failed to find a stadium that fitted his vision closer to home.
Plus he unfortunately had about 18 months when all the ancillary pieces were shut down due to covid. Yes vast amounts were due but for the RFU to deny it had an impact is bizarre.
Absolutely. But it fits their narrative, and I suspect some of the other owners won't have forgiven him for insisting that salary cap issues be dealt with and not swept under the carpet.
Very true - both times
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Worth noting that nearly every club that shared with soccer had issues.
I can vividly remember Reading fans in their TO selling me away tickets to Irish and saying how much the ticket office wanted us to beat Irish. I can also remember attending a then record crowd, and realising the stadium still felt and looked half empty.
I do wonder what would have happened if Booker development had succeeded, but suspect it would have been the same old problem of antipathy between union and soccer fans.
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Worth noting that nearly every club that shared with soccer had issues.
I can vividly remember Reading fans in their TO selling me away tickets to Irish and saying how much the ticket office wanted us to beat Irish. I can also remember attending a then record crowd, and realising the stadium still felt and looked half empty.
I do wonder what would have happened if Booker development had succeeded, but suspect it would have been the same old problem of antipathy between union and soccer fans.
Only exception I can think of is Bristol City and Bristol Bears though that might be because they're both under the same ownership (unless things have changed) so there's more room to accommodate both teams. I could go on about the interaction between football and rugby teams groundsharing and it's relation to rugby as a whole but I will stay on the topic I set! :D
What was the Booker development? Is this the proposed stadium that fell through mentioned by BiND?
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It is - Booker Airfield.
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A very good friend of my wife lives in Lane End, just the other side of the M40. She was against the development because she didn?t think HW noodled more office and retail space.
She regretted that because not long after a helicopter trying school moved in to the airfield and they used to practice hovering over her house. Karma :)
We?d moved down here by then and she?d ring my wife for a good moan.
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The problem with Nimbys is they always forget that the grass doesn't always stay green if you fend off one application. My neighbours were leading protests against a field being used for housing. They won.
Half of the field next to it is occupied by Sky Studios Elstree. They're now complaining about Sky applying to build another studio on the rest of the field. What they don't seem to realise is if they stop it, the landowner (who previously with the local council tried to get Wasps to build a stadium there) will just look to develop housing there instead.
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Back to history:
Best performance - defeating Munster in Dublin in the Heineken Cup semi. Closely followed by defeating Leicester in the Heineken Final - Dallaglio's last game.
Worst Performance - losing to Pertemps Bees at Adams Park in the semi (?) of the Pilkington (?) Cup/
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Worst Performance - losing to Pertemps Bees at Adams Park in the semi (?) of the Pilkington (?) Cup/
Not sure who had the biggest shocker, the team that played or me for deciding not to stick ?40 on Pertemps Bees on the basis that I wouldn't have been able to afford to go to the semi final in Newcastle if I wasted ?40...