Always a Wasp

Tow things spring to my mind..

Would the English clubs be able to afford all the extra travel costs?

Would the fans be prepared to spend the additional costs on travel, and how would this impact the spectacle?

I am not at all convinced, but if they want to give it a go, let them.  I couldn't care less to be honest.

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England are carp because desire not to lose >> desire to win and has led to paralysis.

Reasonable summary yes.
England cricket are a great example of a side that was terrified of losing, worried about being dropped & were scared to play to their strengths.
Change of coach brought in a positive & relaxed atmosphere where players were freed up to play cricket that they wanted to play, with a positive mindset without the threat of being axed if they failed. Even during the summers ashes, which was the most exciting series I can remember watching, they copped some stick for not changing their approach when they lost a couple of games. Was nice to see they stuck to their guns, but it does show that everyone is under huge media & fans pressure to win & it can be difficult to stick to your plan when it doesn't go well
Quinn's managed this when Gustard went. A clearly unhappy squad, playing rugby they didn't like became an exciting, attacking champion side. It can be done

They did modify their plan though, they were more circumspect when they needed to be and didn't flash at everything with abandon (apart from Duckett).  They saw how to modify their overall plan, and implemented it well, whilst staying true to their ethos.  I don't think Borthwick (or the RFU generally) has the leadership skills to empower the players and to identify what needs changing and change it. Hence we stick to plan A even when it is clearly not working.

The RFU and iRFU will do everything they can to prevent territorial incursions by other tournaments and leagues. If your ground is in England, you WILL be subject to the RFU and will NOT be allowed to play in any competition not approved by them for English to compete in. Total territorial monopoly is what they currently hold, and, short of governmental action (unlikely as it is the same old boys club) that will not change, ever.

Any player (including academy players) moving outside that system would be a pariah, as would the club, and any sponsor of that club.

Does that not constitute a restriction of trade?

Sorry you suffered that abuse Wonky W but I say again you cannot dismiss one clubs fans as dross due to a few idiots as all clubs have them.
Clearly WWW hates Leicester and I am no fan of theirs but they regularly get many more supporters than we ever did attending their matches and they have won a lot more silverware than us so they must be doing something right? I still feel our demise was avoidable with better financial controls and us the supporters plus the players and backroom staff are the real losers in our going belly up! Not sure who Grendel is, being new to this forum?

I think you will find that is called cheating.  As Sarries prove, if you cheat enough you will win stuff.  The same applies for Tigers (as explained above).

Do I want other clubs to go to the wall?  No.  Will they? Almost certainly. Would I care if they did? Not a jot... except I would have a smile if it were Saracens. 

As far as mismanagement goes - we could (should) have gone bust after the Falcons game at AP.  We didn't and got a few more years of watching the team - sometime scintillating, always engaging.  Had Covid not happened would we be OK? Probably. Could something else have derailed everything? Probably.  Did the RFU / PRL assist in our demise? Certainly, by not enforcing the rules and punishing cheats properly, and then standing by when everything went south.  The situation is too complex to say it was this or that, them or them.  The truth is that it was a multitude of factors that contributed and had they not occurred at the same time we may have weathered the storm, maybe.

Quote from: Rifleman Harris on June 09, 2023, 01:26:55 PM

Personally I think the 2 division approach is dead in the water already.  If they wanted to do it, they should have started plans and implementation when Warriors went under, nevermind us.  Two 10 team divisions with Wasps, Warriors, Irish, Ealing is a different proposition to one with Ealing, Nottingham, Doncaster etc.  That chance has passed as Warriors and Wasps are in no position to do anything now and the gap between the 'top 10, and the rest is too big to bridge.  All you would get is the same couple of teams being promoted and relegated for years.

What do you think will happen if/when other teams start to fold in a ring-fenced 10 team league?

I think there's probably not much between the bottom 5 of the Prem and Top 5 of the Championship - especially if you were to factor in some form of return for Wasps/Irish/Warriors (unlikely to be all 3).  Certainly for the first few years I think you'd see the same suspects bouncing back/forth between the two divisions, but suspect that changes in time.  With reduced barriers to entry from current Champ > Prem, I think you could see teams build to push for promotion - i.e. do away with minimum 10k seater stadia for promotion and that makes promotion tremendously costly for teams and ends up in a situation where they're either forced to spend and develop to have a stadium other the theshold, but not filled or have to rent a stadium and do away with a significant portion of their income.

I wasn't thinking ringfenced, I was thinking that it's too little too late to implement.  I think Irish are the only ones with a modicum of a chance of taking part in a set up with 2 leagues, and the remaining championship clubs aren't strong enough without a strongish Wasps / Worcester /Irish competing.   You need more strong teams in the second tier than there are promotion places so there is always a core of higher standard teams who would raise the overall standard.  I don't think rugby has the time for 10 plus years of seeing the same clubs yo-yoing, so you need to force the improvement and losing 3 clubs like we have seen makes that so much harder.   I think there is a big gap between Exeter, Bath, Bristol, Gloucester and Newcastle and Jersey, Ealing, Coventry, Bedford and Cornish Pirates.  I can't see many of the last 5 taking many points off the first 5. 

In theory I think the 2 league set up would have been a good idea if they had started it 2 years ago when you could have had 3 'strong' premiership teams in there, particularly if there were only 1 or maybe 2 promotion spots.  That would have provided some strength in depth in the second tier and helped develop the other clubs, but it's too late now.  One solution may be to in the first season have 5 up / 5 down with the Premiership and 5 down 2 up from the tier below (to get 10 in the championship with a mix of teams), then revert to 1 up one down both to the Premiership and the tier below.  At least that would give the current championship sides 5 years to compete, which may be enough for Jersey and Ealing at least. That requires sufficient funding for the tier 2 division so that the 5 Premiership sides down see it as oblivion though, so it's a non-starter, but I think it would work. That first season would be very exciting too!

I agree, any league where the winner is a foregone conclusion is boring.  I done get the hype around the Premier league in football. Man City are way ahead of the rest and will win again next year.  Interestingly they have also been charged with financial doping, and like Saracens, are likely to get away more or less scot free. And they media just ignore that and continue to fawn over them. 

Football won't suffer if Man City continue to win year after year, the media will see to that and it is more likely to help the lower leagues as proper fans seek proper football.  Rugby doesn't have that luxury,

I can't say I'm fussed either way.... they made their bed, they lie in it.