England v France

[hookender]

We've seen ourselves how things can click when the pressure is off.

France were almost in a no lose situation. No one expected them to win. All the pressure was on England.

France came out and got on the scoreboard early and that drove them on.



Just because it wasn't their first team doesn't mean we were against a bunch of amateurs.
Cup competitions in all sports show how teams ranked significantly lower than their opposition can regularly spring surprises.



Yes, England should have won, and should probably have done it comfortably, however, games like this prove why it's actually worth playing the game.
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Never understood why people thought french would be easy. If England had put a second choice side with  who we know are at the top of their game but just not Eddie’s present Choice ,would we expect them to roll over?

[Marlow Nick]

I was so bored by England kick fest that I focused on the crowd. Was anyone else surprised at the poor covid controls? The crowd looked quite closely packed and a significant minority were cleay not bothering with masks. This is a high profile TV event and one of the tests of allowing fans back and yet no-one seemed to give a damn!

[hookender]

But if coaching staff or players aren’t wearing them either in the stands , why bother .

Interesting that Edwards put his up when he realised camera was on him, so presumably coaching staff are meant to.

Edwards was also in airport tonight and got b*******d by staff for not having mask on as he was trying to give phone interview to BT

[mike909]

I have yet to watch the game - highlights on record - but that's not required to say something about the comments I've read elsewhere.

Comments seem divided into those for whom a "win's a win" and that complaints are mainly from "Jones haters" and those who think that England with what was a virtual first pick starting XV who have played together lots (as combinations and as a team) really ought to be capable of more assured performances than recently produced.

My thoughts on the "win's a win" is that is exactly how the conversation went post 2017, when scrappy 6Ns wins in 2018 when a couple of late tries rather flattered the scoreline vs Italy and a stilted win vs Wales were seen as "resilience" when the reality was that England's selection and strategy was behind the curve (for me) and how the breakdown worked. This led to losses to a mobile Scotland team, a robust French team and a decently organised Ireland, a loss to the BaaBaas, and twice on tour to SA, a tour only "saved" by Danny's last start at FH for England

England then made lots of changes to style and to FB, back row and didn't nail down their first choice centres and wings until v close to the RWC.

I guess we won't see until the 6N's but England's happiness in winning really ought to be tempered given they just got past a scratch France team with what was England's first pick who've been playing and training for some some since the scrappy start vs Italy in the delayed 6N's game. As and when they encounter a game reffed like recent SH games at SR and international level, vs a team committed to movement and pace, then we may see of we're really a decent side or one that's in danger of having just one pace.

[wasps]

Its a difficult balance.
If you're involved in the squad or management, then in a commission final, the attitude must be "win at all costs"

If the RWC is the pinnacle of international rugby, then you'd take a 3-0 win in the final, regardless of the opposition.


There's an argument that in between the world cups, teams should aspire to more than just winning, however, international rugby doesn't have a lot of room for experimentation.

The 6Nations feels important every year.
No one wants to tour NZ, Australia or RSA without using a tried and tested game plan.
Similarly, no one wants to lose to them when they tour here.

That ultimately leaves a game against a Pacific nations team in the AIs, or against Italy on the 6N, where you can experiment and probably still win.


Some enlightened fans may feel that it's worth potentially sacrificing a couple of these tournaments for the greater good.
However, the wider public, the media and the paymasters typically want wins for the national side.

[DGP Wasp]

That ultimately leaves a game against a Pacific nations team in the AIs, or against Italy on the 6N, where you can experiment and probably still win.

And in the past month, England have played Italy in the 6 Nations, plus Georgia, pretty ordinary Wales and Ireland teams (by their own recent standards) and France's 3rd XV.  I'd argue that there was room for experimentation and still winning in any of those games without the need for wholesale changes against Italy and/or Georgia, just giving a different set of half backs a decent crack, and a decent look at options in other positions.

As happened in 2018, we have a small squad of established internationals who are amassing caps and are under no pressure at all for their places, with understudies not given the opportunity to gain experience in the event of injury and also apply some pressure to the incumbents.  It will take a bad run of results before anything changes.

[Mellie]

I believe France's inexperience was the reason they didn't seal the game in normal time.

With 2 minutes to go they were in the lead and attacking in England's half. It was obvious that England were not going to compete that aggressively in fear of giving away a penalty.

Maybe the French were hoping for that. However, if they had increased their carrying intensity at that point they were much more likely to have made inroads into England's 22, given the less robust England play, with the possibility of breaking through for a try or setting up for an easy drop goal.

I was hoping for a France win as a possible antidote to England's 1 dimensional approach or a moment of individual brilliance by Dobby to show EJ his worth (though that didn't do Cips much good).

[hookender]

I believe France's inexperience was the reason they didn't seal the game

I was hoping for a France win as a possible antidote to England's 1 dimensional approach or a moment of individual brilliance by Dobby to show EJ his worth (though that didn't do Cips much good).

Yes that was my way of thinking too.

However as much as we are moaning about England’s lack of rotation , I was surprised that France didn’t  change their team around in earlier games to counteract wholesale last game change. Did they not anticipate being in the playoff final , or if they got there ,were they hoping clubs would change their minds ?