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Less than two weeks after lifting their second trophy of 2020, England now know who their opponents will be for the 2023 Rugby World Cup in France. Eddie Jones' men have been drawn alongside Argentina and Japan as well as a team from Oceania and the Americas.
Joining Brian and co-host Rob Vickerman on Brian Moore's Full Contact Podcast this week to react to the draw is none other than the England head coach as he reflects on what's been a trophy-laden year on the pitch amid difficult circumstances off it.
Brian Moore: How do you respond to the claims of a lot of people that England are boring?
Eddie Jones: Ha, well yeah, I think it's all about playing good rugby and every Six Nations game that I've been involved in - and Brian, you have been involved in a lot more than me - they're tough, physical, grinding games and you've got to find a way to win them. And the only thing that counts in those sorts of games is to win. And you look at 2020, we won the Six Nations twice, once in its traditional form, once in a new form. Now, I don't think any team has ever done that.
BM: You have mentioned that the game at the moment is in a power phase. Now, I don't disagree with that. I just wonder about your approach to it. What do you do if it is such? Do you seek to match it, outmatch it or find ways to get around it? What’s your approach?
EJ: There'll be some teams we take on with power where we think we have a power advantage and other teams we will try to play around it. So no, we don't have a fixed style of play. I think you play to your strengths. You always play to your strengths and then you tactically manoeuvre your game to take away the strengths of the opposition and attack their weaknesses.
BM: You’ve talked about kicking stats, and the correlation between success and the teams who kick the most. I don’t know why it has come as a surprise to people - but can you explain those?
Ben Youngs box-kicks
EJ: Yeah, well France in the Autumn Nations Cup final stayed in the game for such a long period of time because they out-kicked us. And at the moment, the longer you keep the ball in Test rugby, the more times you keep the ball over three phases, the greater the chance of a turnover. And the more times you turn over the ball, the less chance you have of winning the game. So it's a pretty simple game at Test rugby at the moment. It's not the same at club rugby. And that's where people get a bit confused. At club rugby, you can probably keep the ball up to eight phases. Test rugby, it's about three. And then you have to be accurate and you have to be attacking and you have to be tactically good at kicking the ball.
BM: My summation was it wasn't that England's tactics were wrong, they just didn't kick as well as they should have done. And people get it wrong about what is a good and bad kick. Now, you've talked a lot about transitioning. How far along have you got with that?
EJ: Really pleased, mate. You know, still very much in the infancy, we have still got nappies on. But yeah, the try that Jonny May scored which Maro [Itoje] initiated against Ireland, that 100m try, was a brilliant try. And we're really working hard on that. We're giving that a lot of priority. We've now got a tracking system that can measure the players' work off the ball, which is going to become increasingly important. So we feel like we're in a good position to take advantage of that in the future.
BM: You've mentioned the mantle of favourites - it hasn't always sat well. Would you say England have to accept that? How do you go about implementing that mindset, about them accepting without difficulty the tag of favourites?
EJ: Yeah, it's embracing the pressure, understanding that the pressure's coming, finding ways to look at it as an opportunity, not as a threat. You know, it took New Zealand eight years to get over that mate, and we're in our second stint now and I would expect that over the next period of time with the growing maturity of the team. I think people don't understand how important it is to have a mature team to handle the pressure of big games. And we're starting to get that now. We've got some good young players coming through. They're going to push the barrier. So it's a mindset, but it's also the practise of doing it and learning from it and then going again.
BM: I think part of the maturity is enjoying bullying people, in the right way. Now people threw their hands up in horror when I said this, and I said, 'no, you've got to enjoy putting people away'. It doesn't matter what the standard is, you set your own standards and you give it to people and you keep your foot on and you don't apologise, because that's not the way things work.
Now ball-carrying always comes up. We had a discussion about the variety of ways that defences are broken down. And we agreed at the time, England weren't quite there in terms of their sophistication of ball-carrying. They did get there in the last World Cup. It seems to me either they've been worked out or not quite where they were on the variety of the angles and the people taking the ball into contact. Where are you on that?
EJ: Yeah, I think you're right there. Look, you know, our attack was at its best in the World Cup because we had that really good preparation time. I think one thing, looking at a number of sports at the moment, I don't think players are very sharp. You know, those little details, the one or two degrees, a half yard. And it's because they're playing back-to-back seasons. And I'm not making excuses for players and not making excuses for the team, but that's the reality of sport. I see it in football. I don't see the passing being as precise in football as possibly it has been because players, at the moment, we all know what they've got to do because we've got to keep the sport going and it's so important. But what they're being asked to do is pretty huge. And I think they're coping well. And you'll see, I reckon in the next 18 months rugby will come back. You'll come back to some preciseness in attack, and people will get better at attacking rush defences. You know, even the tenth best team in the world now can rush consistently. They can rush from second phase. Look, we made a line break on second phase against Wales. On third phase, by the time George Ford got the ball, [Dan] Biggar was straight on top of him. That's the change in the defence. And you've got to get better at attacking that.
BM: What about leadership. Have you got enough leaders? Where are they?
EJ: Yeah, and I think we are taking some really good steps forward. Owen’s [Farrell] maturing as a captain. I thought Maro [Itoje] took a really big step forward in the way he led by example and particularly in that [Autumn Nations Cup] final, where he was just a colossal force. Mako [Vunipola] continues to grow and we've got a few others starting to spur up. Young Tom Curry's starting to be a greater voice in the team. So I think we're moving in the right direction, but we'd always like to get there a bit quicker. But we’re getting there.
BM: What from the last World Cup do you think you can take as a lesson for the forthcoming one?
EJ: Well, it's your ability to get up after a big game. You've always got to be at your best to win the semi-final and it's your ability to regenerate, refocus and get ready for the next one. And that's something we'll continually work on for the next three years.
BM: Can I just finally talk about the 2023 draw, England are in a pool with Japan and Argentina? What about that and about the possible crossovers?
EJ: I always look at it mate, you have got to win four big games, you've got to win one big game in your pool and we might have to win two big games with Argentina and Japan. I am in Japan at the moment and everyone's excited, they couldn't be happier having England in the pool. And then you've got to win your quarter, semi and everything else. You know, the pool's exciting because it sort of sets your project in place, but the reality is nothing's really changed for us. We've got to be at our best and that's all you can be, just be at your best.
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