Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Time for change  (Read 8896 times)

JonnyD

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2019, 07:01:23 PM »
If Leyds arrives that would be a massive boost with him and Minozzi able to also play very well on the wing as we are seriously short there this season. (Looking at Sarries yesterday on the wing why have strettle, maitland, Williams and Lewington before bringing in the likes of segun and Gallagher)
Sirker has the ability to be an absolute star so needs to be given a shot on the left at some stage moving forward.
James also as a homegrown player (with some of his contract paid for by rfu credits) I hope would be offered a deal rather than us being in another galactico or a journeyman.
Would much prefer this to be our policy moving forward.

(Not being pedantic Chilham but Daniels is a TH and Thornton is off)

Chilham

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2019, 07:04:24 PM »
... (Not being pedantic Chilham but Daniels is a TH and Thornton is off)

Daniels plays both loose and tight and thanks for the info on Thornton.  I'd missed that.

Tervueren

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2019, 07:42:43 PM »
Clearly we have been handed our posteriors on a plate a few times this season, worse still we have gift wrapped then and passed them to the opposition to give back to us. However, IMHO, we have had new players coming in to the fore earlier than planned due to injuries and a lack of ready academy prospects, and some players (notable WLR and ED) whilst they can be top drawer have not had level heads when needed.

A bit of Clive Woodward's "T.C.U.P." and there are probably about 5 matches that would have been victories rather than losses.

I think by next season a few players will be bedded in better and with some coaching improvement and a few of the academy players starting to come through first team players we should start on an upward trajectory.

We do need coaching enhancements and some senior players taking more/some leadership responsibility, and less flapping under pressure.

Hymenoptera

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2019, 10:43:15 PM »
Only thing that needs a change is your repeated message

Jac A

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2019, 12:18:40 AM »
I too disagree with the original post.

I do agree that this season has been poor and that Dai and the coaching staff have to take some responsibility for that. Do I trust Dai to put things right? I don’t know. Do I think removing Dai will benefit the club? Not at all.

Owen Slot’s somewhat confused piece the other week showed that for every Ackerman or Boyd there’s a John Kingston or Matt O’Connor (or Todd Blackadder according to some Bath fans). Dai has kept us up, topped the league and got us to within a couple of minutes of a Final’s Day win.

I wrote a short while ago about what I felt had changed and I stand by what I said.

I suggested that the three area where we were most proficient in previous seasons (counter-attacking off turnover ball, first-phase set moves and converting line-breaks through superior support line runners) had to some effect been nullified this year.

There have been glimpses this season of the threat that we still pose of turn-over ball (we saw it at Exeter for example) but the fact that we have lost players such as Guy Thompson (who has 16 for the season – third highest in the league), had Jack Willis injured for all of one and a bit games and Thomas Young starting only 32% of our prem games this year has limited our previous success here.

I have seen suggestions that Lima needs to play behind a strong pack. I disagree, the pack at the ‘Landers was never that formidable (don’t get me wrong it was very good and had some big powerful players but it wasn’t the strongest at all). I think that Lima needs a 9 who takes control and runs plays more. We have gone from a very controlling 10 who was always talking and moving players about and calling plays to a far more reserved 10 who is very good at what he does and has a very strong technical game but is not a ‘controller’. At the ‘Landers and Abs he had Smith who could do this as well as any 9 in the game. It is not the way Robson and Simpson play. Could this be solved by having a genuine 2nd 5 at 12 like Jimmy?
Maybe, won’t know ‘till we see it.

Line breaks: well the two best support runners (Dan and YY) haven’t played much and without them we have seen a fair few butchered this season.

We all know the injury situation has been dire this year. Of our two first choice loose-heads at the start of the year, one left without playing a single minute and the other has started all of two games. Taylor has hardly played, all our tight-heads have had injury troubles, Willis hardly played, Youngs started on 7 Prem games, Robson has hardly played, Jimmy has been out for the season, Wade packed up and left after a few games. None of this is Dai’s fault and it is unfortunate that the injuries have fallen on key players. Hindsight is wonderful I know but at the start of the season if you had asked me who our key players were that I’d want to play as much as possible, I’d have said, Launchbury, Young, Robson, Gopperth and le Roux – well Gopperth hasn’t started a game, Youngs and Launch started 7 and Dan 8, only le Roux (whose started around 60% of Prem games) has appeared in over 50%. Obviously, Willie hasn’t covered himself in glory this year and I think even the most generous would describe his season as little more that a curate’s egg. Of our other players, Daly has been poor almost the whole season, Simpson is not the player he was and Hughes while occasionally excellent continues to be a disciplinary liability.

On coaches, clearly Dai and the board have been trying to get someone. Wilson and Shaun didn’t come off and while some may moan that we didn’t have a back-up maybe we are only going for people who will make a material positive difference. Last year, people were lauding Dave Walder as a fantastic coach, not sure Falcon’s attacking stats make him quite such hot property now. I don’t say that out of spite in anyway to suggest that maybe we are looking at coaches whose quality is known and proved over time. As for former players, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Nick Easter didn’t work for Quins, jury is out on Hooper at Bath, Mauger and Murphy haven’t worked for Tigers. I love Worsley, for example, and would love to see him back at Wasps maybe he will come but maybe his style isn’t what the club want, maybe he’d rather stay in the south of France, it’s not necessarily that we ‘lacked ambition’ or similar.

Of course I’m gutted about the Bath game and the whole season to be honest but it has been a close run thing. Every team bar the top two has had some pretty ropy runs. Anyone bored enough to trawl back through the Saints board on SN after Sarries hammered them, again and when they lost to Tigers will see that consistency has been somewhat absent from most teams. As for us, in many games it has been close. Silly errors, discipline and switching off have cost us points on top of the things above. Let’s be hopeful for next year though, at least that way we can be cheerful over the summer.

westwaleswasp

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2019, 01:34:14 AM »
Can't see Vellacott and Robson being that type of nine, myself. They are the type of nines you have/want when you have a fiver-esque ten.
Not quite sure what we seem to be aiming for post Cips.
Jimmy at twelve may help Lima but we shall see.

I think next year will be interesting,I am wondering will Shields be first choice? I mean Young and Willis are indispensable, surely? Ashley, Carr, Shields, Vailanu (SP?), Reider seems like a lot of competition before we consider likely promotions.


« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 01:52:32 AM by westwaleswasp »

JonnyD

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2019, 01:57:23 AM »
Top post that Jac

Jac A

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2019, 08:44:53 AM »
Can't see Vellacott and Robson being that type of nine, myself. They are the type of nines you have/want when you have a fiver-esque ten.
Not quite sure what we seem to be aiming for post Cips.
Jimmy at twelve may help Lima but we shall see.
I agree. That's no slight on either. I'm not sure that there are too many 9's in the Prem who are comparable to Smith. I do think that Lima needs a decision maker and play caller to be at his best though. Jimmy may well be able to do that for him. I also that that having a good mate in Fekitoa back at the club and having settled a little more will help.
I am loath to criticise decisions made by people with far more knowledge than me but it did seem like a bit of a snap decision to buy Lima and then try to fit him in to the team with little regard for differing styles.

I think next year will be interesting,I am wondering will Shields be first choice? I mean Young and Willis are indispensable, surely? Ashley, Carr, Shields, Vailanu (SP?), Reider seems like a lot of competition before we consider likely promotions.
I don't think any of us were expecting to play Carr at 7 for so much of this season either though. Backrow get a lot of injuries and I think that we can expect there to be a fair amount of rotation there. Shields will spend time with England, Valianu will be at the RWC with Tonga and then need to get up to speed with our plays etc. I'll be interested to see what the pecking order looks like but I am certainly happy to have plenty of choice there next year.

Rory87

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Re: Time for changes
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2019, 09:01:53 AM »
I’ve thought long and hard before posting on this thread. Mainly because this seems to have been a recurring topic for most of the season... ‘Mass changes required’.

Heathen I respect your opinion and can understand why you have it, but I don’t agree. As I said on another thread a while back, you only have to look at Tigers since the Cockerill sacking to see that cleaning house doesn’t guarantee success or an upturn. You could argue that Bath haven’t recovered since sacking Ford. I understand many will think changing it up and removing Dai would be a change... but not necessarily a good one.

Jac I think your post summed up everything I was thinking. It’s very well written and it’s hard to argue with the logic.

I agree that changes need to be made but Dai must stay in place to maintain some consistency and not just tear up all our progress as a club in recent times. I know our league position this season hasn’t been what we all want but let’s not forget we were one game from being relegated!!! We have so much to be positive about with all the developments since then. Yes you could argue Dai has maybe taken us as far as he can but i’d argue that removing him now would have a far more negative impact than positive. As many have pointed out above and on other threads this season has been a tough one for us due to many factors. With our SH stars bedded in, an academy crop to be promoted, players departing that clearly don’t want to be here... Next season is shaping up to be a positive one (let’s not predict it on a player in v player out basis).

I trust Dai to get the coaching set-up right. As VV pointed out, he’s been wanting to do it for some time and with our results now not papering over the cracks, perhaps our board will allow it.

The RWC is going to offer up plenty of opportunities both with players and coaches. Let’s be patient, let the squads be announced and then see what Dai goes in for.... either an international player that’s missed out and now has given up on international aspirations so free to move abroad. Or a player with a seat on the plane who can now announce that he will be heading to the Premiership post RWC. There will also be coaches that have the RWC as a milestone and will perhaps be looking for some club action and a change of scenery after the event. Yes they won’t be here for the start of the season be it Player or Coach as they’ll be in Japan, but we need to think long term here and not base a decision on having a player or coach for a couple extra months next season.

Yes changes are required Heathen, but I don’t think it’s on the drastic scale that you and a number of others think.

Out of interest Heathen, what changes would you bring to Wasps.... And I mean post sacking of Dai? I see you've said on a number of occasions that we need to clean house... so who would you bring in and for what reason (please don’t just say the Wasps old guard)? Please also be realistic rather than ‘in an ideal world’...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 09:16:45 AM by Rory87 »

Rossm

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2019, 09:11:33 AM »
I seem to remember someone on the other board citing Man U and Ole Gunnar Solskjaer as a wonderful success story and how we should emulate them and get rid of Dai mid-season, replace him with someone/anyone and everything would be wonderful.

LMFAO.
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!

westwaleswasp

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2019, 10:18:20 AM »
To be fair on average OGS has improved United statistically on Jose M's United, by only by a few points now.
It is just that they have had all their wins in a purple patch followed by a run of defeats. There are some similarities.
For Daly read David De Gea, for Pogba read Willie.

We had what, a winning run of two successive league matches this year?  OGS won about 8 in the league matches in succession. I'd take that.



Rossm

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2019, 10:41:29 AM »
We had what, a winning run of two successive league matches this year?  OGS won about 8 in the league matches in succession. I'd take that.

You have to take this in the context of a full season of matches. Don't know how many the play in football, so I can't get into percentages.
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Chilham

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2019, 12:53:47 PM »
... We had what, a winning run of two successive league matches this year?  OGS won about 8 in the league matches in succession. I'd take that.

We had two-in-a-row twice, and three-in-a-row once.  It's fair to say that this season, the quality in the Premiership has been more consistent than in the Premier League.  Far fewer "easy" matches, illustrated by the fact that one of the top-4, will have lost at least 10 matches.

westwaleswasp

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2019, 02:40:26 PM »
Yeah, the two are obviously not comparable, but to win 8 or 9 prem games on the trot is actually bloody hard in soccer. Fwiw it us 22 vs 38 matches, so 8 in a row is about 5 or 6 wins in rugby, and internationals don't complicate it in soccer (although you could argue the top teams' Euro games midweek games do affect the league matches).
I do rather disagree about the respective difficulties, it is worth noting that top four rugby is equivalent to top 6 soccer proportionately, and the teams in 6th ish are Wolves and United, with about fifty percent win rates. In other words teams a third of the way down the league are winning about the same percentage (actually slightly lower) as in rugby, although draws exist to complicate it.

It is pretty hard to draw comparison between sports. Eddie's John Terry mitivational visit did not do us much good....)

As an aside, my interest in rugby means that one of the internal school soccer leagues I ran adopted the following model
4 points win
2 points draw
5 points win by 3 or more
1 point defeat by 2 or 1.
It made for more attacking play and kept otherwise dead games interesting. I would bring it in tomorrow if I could.



InBetweenWasp

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Re: Time for change
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2019, 08:01:34 AM »
I’m in the camp of marginal gains, rather than wholesale sweeping changes needed.  I think a bunch of the other posters have covered most of what I think but a couple of extra thoughts:

- Just on two odd refereeing decisions (Alo’s try disallowed and Mercer’s double movement) we’d be level pegging with Bath

- We’ve had a number of close games that were absolutely winnable - (Falcons and Sharks home games)

If we had those decisions and one of the two wins above, we’d be sat level with Quins in 5th

- I wouldn’t under-estimate the level of disruption in the squad due to Injury, Contract negotiations and international call ups as well as new players bedding in.  We’ve spent a good deal of the season without our first choice 2, 4, 8, 9, 12, 13 (Daly although JdJ was beginning to make that shirt his, but has been shuffled a lot to accommodate) and 14 in the matchday squads. That’s a hell of a lot of key talent out.  Even Sarries would struggle with the second choices in the above for a significant chunk of the season.

Daly and Lima have come in for significant flak; but they’re both (relatively) young guys. Daly has always been spoken of as an emotional player; and no doubts the contract discussions were difficult for him and playing on his mind. Lima has openly talked of the difficulties in settling; that his game wasn’t as transferable as he’d initially thought, the intensity and power were a struggle, that his over half wanted to go back and struggled with loneliness. You might be earning good money and that might have been the motivation for the move, but that’s a lot of stress to carry.  He’s spoken of changes he wants to make and with his best mate with him next year and potentially Jimmy sat outside him to take some of the pressure off, I think we’ll see the best of him.

- Broadly speaking, I’m pretty happy with our recruitment.  Vailanu for Hughes, Fekitoa for Daly and Minozzi for WLR are good replacements that give us some power and fleet of foot that’s been missing.  Like most, id like a bruiser of a Lock to help us in the physical battles and to get us over the gainline. I agree we need to find a playmaker 12 to replace Jimmy but don’t think we need to be in a rush if Jimmy is there next season and MLB keeps developing then we might be alright without the need for a superstar type player.  That being said if KB came back I’d be delighted.

- We’re clearly looking at bolstering our coaching Setup and the attempts to get Edwards and Wilson suggest we’re after quality and not just people to make up the numbers

- Lastly, hopefully the off field stuff is close to being sorted. The constant negativity around them must be draining; from training grounds to court cases and financial issues being regularly spoken about it’s bound to take a toll in confidence / belief.