Salary cap

[BG]

Its good that the investigation has gone to an independent panel to adjudicate on. My optimisitc side leads me to believe that PRL are passing the buck on making a decision that one of the most high profile PRL members won't be happy with, but like others, being realistic I think PRL are hoping that the interest in this investigation will fizzle out.

There's very little interest in this topic on other clubs' forums (and the media). Maybe we as a group of supporters (Wasps) are more interested in it because of the saga surrounding Daly not honouring his contract and moving to (poached by) Sarries (for less money of course).

We now have the diversion of the season starting as well as the start of the WC

[andermt]

Like most I hope something happens but suspect there will be much sweeping and much carpet lifting.

I agree with some of the comments above that if it is shown they exceeded the salary cap for the last 2 years for example then any sanctions should be against those years, the 35 points wouldn't get them relegated but would get them moved out the Champions Cup. And their Premiership wins removed.

On the Champions Cup, not sure what the rules are there, do the clubs need to adhere to their origin championship rules, i.e. salary cap or to the ECC rules, if such a thing exists, if, for example, France don't have a salary cap?

[mike909]

I'm hoping the other owners might be motivated to do something - certainly the owners of just my local clubs would not be people you'd want to piss off... (Bath and Bristol)

[BG]

On the Champions Cup, not sure what the rules are there, do the clubs need to adhere to their origin championship rules, i.e. salary cap or to the ECC rules, if such a thing exists, if, for example, France don't have a salary cap?

An interesting side point - the clubs playing in the ECC are taking part having adhered to their own leagues rules (or not as the case may be - which might explain a lot).

So we have EPL teams capped to roughly £7m, French clubs I think have a £15m (approx) cap and then the Irish Provences have a very cosy relationship with their own union, are almost guaranteed ECC qualification, so can rest and target the ECC games.

On the face of it, the EPL teams shouldn't really be able to compete with the Irish and French clubs over the whole ECC competition but Sarries can.

[InBetweenWasp]

The thing is, when we look at the number of internationals and lions that Saracens have, and compare that to us, it would make you think that sarries must be at least doubling the salary cap.... Not just 3 or 4 players over it

I can’t see how Saracens can seriously be spending £14-15m per year on players wages (inside or outside the cap).

If you roughly say that they’ve got £7.5m to play with by the time there’s academy and England credits as well as injury dispensation (and it could be £.5-1m higher) that’s £127k as a mean average for their 59 players in their squad (there’s 61, but two are excluded for Marquee).  Even if their entire matchday 23 were averaging £250k per annum as a finger-in-the-air figure then that’s £70-80k per head for the rest of the squad, which includes some reasonably junior academy lads.  You’d like there’s be a reasonable bunch of the academy squad on less than that.

Don’t forget, Daly was rumoured to be on £250-300k at Wasps it’s not like he’s taken double at Saracens.  Dai said he hasn’t gone for a pay cut, but realistically if he wanted away and is playing for England etc... he might have accepted a small pay cut or the same wage.

I believe they’re abusing the cap via a loophole but I don’t believe it’s close to double.

[Tervueren]

It is also the case that an aspect of payment is to prevent someone going elsewhere. Where else would their England International players go? To keep playing for England they have to play in England. Saracens are successful, so they have the likelihood of winning stuff. With other clubs under the cap could any of them offer enough more to tempt players away?
A couple of "interesting" investment deals might be all takes to just be sure that key players stay put, without having to go too mad.

[BG]

Theorectically 12 of Sarries stars could leave (be tempted) to go another PRL club (1 club each though) who wanted to splash the cash, as each club can sign one marquee English player.

In theory Sale could offer Itoje £1m per season and it wouldn't effect their salary cap which implies a lot of the Sarries players are content with the package they are receiving.

I can't think of many top Sarries performers who have left chasing the $ though.

Strettle perhaps?

[Marlow Nick]

In between wasp - one minor correction for you. The salary cap is £7m. That includes all credits maxed out to the full. The basic cap is £6.4m and credits are themselves capped so the max is £7m. They have a senior squad of 41 so excluding the 2 marquees they are paid an average of £179k each. 
I'm not sure £250k is a reasonable average for a matchday 23. They have 23 internationals of which 7 are B&I Lions and 15 are at the world cup. In a recent journalists poll they had 9 players ranked in the top 100 globally and yet somehow their top 23 players get paid only £250k each?

[Marlow Nick]

BG,
Marquee players cannot be from transfers. That's exactly to prevent poaching and why Daly cannot be their marquee player. They have to pay Daly and Willemse (the SA international fly half they just recruited) from the cash they were under the cap. Good to know they're not spending up to the max and have contingency funds if needed to recruit more players.

[mike909]

In a recent journalists poll they had 9 players ranked in the top 100 globally and yet somehow their top 23 players get paid only £250k each?

Of course, if they are complying with the cap, that's possible

However, an undisclosed number also have co investments worth £xm in total as well - which is the issue of course!

In many ways, such co investments will be very attractive for the longer term - especially if they benefit from the expertise and business advice that the owner's companies and contacts can provide.

But there has to be something beyond the salary cap. The salary cap may be targeted at some perhaps foreign internationals and the co investment route for the UK based player?

[BG]

BG,
Marquee players cannot be from transfers.

Marlow.. Can You explain this? What do you mean by "transfers"? That sounds like a football term of buying and selling players

[Marlow Nick]

BG,
Sorry for my lazy use of the wrong terminology.

Clubs may exclude 2 players from the cap.
1. One excluded player must have played for the club for at least 2 full seasons.
2. The second player must not have played in the premiership. In theory they could have played in the championship but in practice they have to be a foreign import. If a foreign import is not nominated immediately then they cannot subsequently be named as the excluded player until the club wait 2 full seasons and then nominate them as their #1 excluded.

Why does this matter? If you headhunt someone (eg Bristol taking Nathan or Wasps taking Vellacot) then they cannot be excluded for 2 years. This should prevent silly money offers to lure them away.

Many Sarries fans don't understand the regulations. Only one of their English players can be excluded because the second excluded player must be a foreign import so they can't have both Farrell and Itoje excluded. They have very few foreign imports in their squad (the South African's have mainly retired) so they don't have many options for #2 excluded player - probably Koch or Williams - but these cant be nominated retrospectively. If they nominated Williams as excluded that would have to be done when he joined in 2017 which means the expensive foreigners they had in 2017/18 could not have been excluded ... Complicated isn't it!

[BG]

It looks like the club owners/CEO's have had a meeting in the last few days (yesterday??) and aren't prepared to let Sarries get away with a "behind closed doors" deal if found guilty.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7496215/Premiership-rugby-clubs-determined-pursue-Saracens-salary-breach.html

Good. I think this time it all needs to be investigated and argued out in the open.

[Neils]

Meeting was on 19th so just about time for it to leak/be fed to the Mail. Hope they keep at it.

[RogerE]

Just driven to my daughter's house in Prestwood, and down the road from her there is a van with the signage "E. DALEY PROPERTY DEVELOPMENT"